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  #1831  
Old 11-23-2014, 08:09 PM
RAMSET RAMSET is offline
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Bob
yes the "tune" is Key ,the Savic Sonic boiler thread was all about that "tune".

we never got the crazy high Cop's claimed By Professor Savic.[TUNE ????]

what you are describing [9V battery] sounds Like our Amish friends
WITTS claim.
and yes I do agree.

thx
Chet
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  #1832  
Old 11-24-2014, 04:22 PM
wrtner wrtner is offline
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Originally Posted by RAMSET View Post
Bob
yes the "tune" is Key ,the Savic Sonic boiler thread was all about that "tune".

we never got the crazy high Cop's claimed By Professor Savic.[TUNE ????]
What Savic does not seem to understand is that one cannot simply tune anything to any frequency. An item will have its natural frequency, and that is that. Cutting bits off his beer can will make the natural frequency go in the wrong direction, i.e. up.

I cannot remember what frequency he was chasing. In the high double figures, I suspect. His beer can would need to be the size of a small dustbin.

Dumas is interesting but nothing to do with Peter Daysh Davey.
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  #1833  
Old 11-24-2014, 06:25 PM
sprocket sprocket is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Smith View Post
The Dumas Effect strikes me as quite similar to the one being discussed. Maybe it's the same idea. Dumas himself made everything open-source, and it seems people in France are using it to heat their homes with a 116%COP. Here's a video that I've cued up to where Dumas himself speaks. It's in French with Eng subtitles; lots more in French as well:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...11hlTTMo#t=154
Bob
Damn, wish I'd seen this video before now! I expended much effort a few years ago on the Davey heater only to end up with an expensive and very dangerous way of boiling water. This seems much more promising, maybe I'll give it another go. Thanks for posting this.
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  #1834  
Old 11-24-2014, 07:09 PM
RAMSET RAMSET is offline
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Paul
the Savic device was based on a Tesla resonant water tube heater as I recall.
the beer can was merely an attempt by a very smart fellow with No resources to investigate within his budget ,and perhaps pass some time too...

and to be clear a harmonic is a harmonic ..but quite true the closer you get to the Main frequency the less fussy the tune becomes.

repost of Bob's link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...hlTTMo#t=15 4

Thx
Chet
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  #1835  
Old 11-24-2014, 10:33 PM
wrtner wrtner is offline
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Originally Posted by RAMSET View Post
Paul
the Savic device was based on a Tesla resonant water tube heater as I recall.
the beer can was merely an attempt by a very smart fellow with No resources to investigate within his budget ,and perhaps pass some time too...

and to be clear a harmonic is a harmonic ..but quite true the closer you get to the Main frequency the less fussy the tune becomes.

repost of Bob's link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...hlTTMo#t=15 4

Thx
Chet
Dear Chet,

Interesting. What Tesla water heater? Which of his patents?

I can't remember about Savic but Davey is not about harmonics; he is about octaves.
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  #1836  
Old 11-25-2014, 12:49 PM
RAMSET RAMSET is offline
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Paul

Professor Savic had either sent a link To David or posted it in the Sonic boiler thread ?
but I do remember seeing it, and comments were made that this patent was in Libraries over _There_ but no longer over here???

It would be nice to speak with David again[slovenia]
I'll ring him before our turkey holiday.

thx
Chet
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  #1837  
Old 11-25-2014, 09:27 PM
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daemonbart daemonbart is offline
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Hello!

Nice to see some action here!

Still working on my understanding of this.. anyway i hop to crack the code soon. Many setups to run.
Thanks D
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  #1838  
Old 11-26-2014, 02:25 AM
RAMSET RAMSET is offline
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very nice
looks like I'll be Calling more than One Old Friend.
thx for the smile

Chet
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  #1839  
Old 11-26-2014, 12:38 PM
Altair Altair is offline
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Originally Posted by wrtner View Post
Dear Chet,

Interesting. What Tesla water heater? Which of his patents?

I can't remember about Savic but Davey is not about harmonics; he is about octaves.
Octaves ARE harmonics. Each successive octave is double of the preceeding harmonic, ie: 2,4,8,16...
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  #1840  
Old 11-26-2014, 12:42 PM
Altair Altair is offline
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I wonder if the system absolutely HAS to be in the form of a sphere, or cylinder.
What if it was made of two flat plates separated by insulated washers of the correct thickness? The important thing seems to be the spacing between the two electrodes.
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  #1841  
Old 11-26-2014, 02:31 PM
wrtner wrtner is offline
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Originally Posted by Altair View Post
Octaves ARE harmonics...
...but harmonics are not octaves (probably).


All horses are four legged animals
~therefore:
All four legged animals are horses

Discuss.
.
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  #1842  
Old 11-26-2014, 02:42 PM
wrtner wrtner is offline
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Originally Posted by Altair View Post
I wonder if the system absolutely HAS to be in the form of a sphere, or cylinder.
What if it was made of two flat plates separated by insulated washers of the correct thickness? The important thing seems to be the spacing between the two electrodes.
Interesting observation.

I have wondered if a tuning fork with insulated plates araldited to the prongs would serve. The frequency is certain (although the gluing may shift it a bit). Then drive with a sig gen through a regular Hi-Fi amplifier, being sure that the output impedance is reasonable (or the amp will be blown).

I suspect that cavitation is involved and curved bodies focus the effect to the centre of curvature in some relevant way.
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  #1843  
Old 11-27-2014, 04:19 PM
sprocket sprocket is offline
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Originally Posted by Altair View Post
I wonder if the system absolutely HAS to be in the form of a sphere, or cylinder.
What if it was made of two flat plates separated by insulated washers of the correct thickness? The important thing seems to be the spacing between the two electrodes.
When I tried this, my spheres were definitely non-spherical - SS egg-cups of various sizes, therefore oval, simply because I couldn't source any appropriate spheres at the time. And still can't - can anyone point to an online source? I also tried a square-wave of a couple of hundred watts, varying its frequency - nothing, although I wasn't surprised then as I presumed that this was far too low a power level.

I also tried varying the distance between the 'spheres' to no effect - but not to the 1.6mm that Dumas suggests (for safety reasons obviously). Without these 'natural' ratios (according to him), it cannot work, which would explain my failure.

Also, even though this would seem to deliver a terminal blow to the COE, is it really an 'efficient' (1.16 COP) way of heating your home? He claims to heat his home for 500W, that's 12kWh, or running full-time, 4380kWh per year. A bit of searching shows that a low-energy German home uses 50kWh/m2/annum. Whereas this link deals with average house sizes. Since France isn't quoted directly, I'll use the UK figure which is 76m2. This says that a typical low-energy European house requires 3800kWh per annum to heat. Ok, it wouldn't be running 24/7, but how long would it take 500W to heat a house from say 5degC to 20degC? And then to sustain it at a comfortable level? 500W seems way way too little - heating a small room with 500W would be a struggle. And that miserly COP wouldn't dig it of this hole either! Or am I mistaken?
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  #1844  
Old 11-27-2014, 05:21 PM
wrtner wrtner is offline
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Originally Posted by sprocket View Post
Also, even though this would seem to deliver a terminal blow to the COE, is it really an 'efficient' (1.16 COP) way of heating your home?
A COP of 1.16 is a waste of space.

This is soaked up by someone measuring mains voltage during the advertisements of a popular TV show (when everyone rushes out to put the kettle on and so they have to drop the voltage a bit to cope with the demand) and then using that figure later as a basis for the experiment.

It is well within experimental error.
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  #1845  
Old 11-27-2014, 05:38 PM
sprocket sprocket is offline
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Originally Posted by wrtner View Post
A COP of 1.16 is a waste of space.

This is soaked up by someone measuring mains voltage during the advertisements of a popular TV show (when everyone rushes out to put the kettle on and so they have to drop the voltage a bit to cope with the demand) and then using that figure later as a basis for the experiment.

It is well within experimental error.
I was indirectly quoting the video and agree that these COP's are borderline experimental-error. Claiming OU but not shown any measurements is always a red-flag as well. And that 500W to heat his home is downright suspect even at a cursory glance.
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  #1846  
Old 11-28-2014, 04:08 PM
wrtner wrtner is offline
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Originally Posted by sprocket View Post
And still can't - can anyone point to an online source?
The trouble is I cannot see why anyone would make spheres.

Some ladles and bowls sold in kitchen supplies shops can be a hemishere. Then solder or glue them together.
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  #1847  
Old 11-28-2014, 05:20 PM
kenssurplus kenssurplus is offline
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locating metal spheres

Here is an online source I found just by googling "metal spheres":

Metal Hollow Balls | Metal Spheres | Stainless Steel Balls


I can't see why they would be so hard to find or to design a device around.
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  #1848  
Old 11-28-2014, 10:45 PM
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I had come across this which I thought might do the trick - I'm particularly interested in distilling water (cheaply) and this would fit snugly into my distiller. The more I think about it, the less sense it makes though. This seems to be vapourising water just within the 1.6mm space between the hemispheres. With this submerged and surrounded by cold water, most of the steam produced will just recombine back to form water! Having this submerged just doesn't make sense to me! A much more efficient use of power would seem be a flash-steam approach. That and doing it in a partial vacuum. Never understood why there is nothing commercially available that takes this approach. Sorry, I seem to be going off at a tangent.
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  #1849  
Old 11-28-2014, 11:29 PM
wrtner wrtner is offline
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Originally Posted by sprocket View Post
I had come across this which I thought might do the trick - I'm particularly interested in distilling water (cheaply)
I don't reckon this technology is specifically about distilling; it is about the generation of heat which, of course, can be put to the matter of boiling.

As the gear generates steam, it is the processes which count, not the steam per se. Cavitation, possibly. Personally, I don't rate Dumas or Savic. Davey may well be the approach that delivers. But it needs very accurate tuning which is everything. The resonance between the frequency of the bells, spheres, and the driving voltage.
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  #1850  
Old 11-29-2014, 01:57 PM
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I don't reckon this technology is specifically about distilling; it is about the generation of heat which, of course, can be put to the matter of boiling.

As the gear generates steam, it is the processes which count, not the steam per se. Cavitation, possibly. Personally, I don't rate Dumas or Savic. Davey may well be the approach that delivers. But it needs very accurate tuning which is everything. The resonance between the frequency of the bells, spheres, and the driving voltage.
A couple of other things rattling around in my head. If it's all in the dimensions, golden ratios, tuning - call it what you will - it would seem that having accurately-sized spheres would be a prerequisite. Accurate in the sense of having the inside diameter of one exactly matching the outside diameter of the one that fits inside it - I think these would be very difficult to find given the millimeter-difference involved. Second, however the effect is produced, the end-result is steam that is being produced in an enclosure that is immersed in cold water. This steam has to find a way through this 'barrier' somehow and it seems inevitable that the vast majority will simply reform back into water - this seems an extremely inefficient way of doing things! It would seem much more sensible to drop/trickle/pour water into the apparatus from the top (somehow) - that way the steam is liberated into the air and not into cold water. Thinking about it, if there is an OU-gain here, even when the majority of the steam is condensing straight back to water, how much better it would be with a well thought-out setup?
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  #1851  
Old 11-29-2014, 02:17 PM
wrtner wrtner is offline
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A couple of other things rattling around in my head. If it's all in the dimensions, golden ratios, tuning - call it what you will - it would seem that having accurately-sized spheres would be a prerequisite.
This thread is about Davey.

Are you talking about Dumas?
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  #1852  
Old 11-29-2014, 02:44 PM
sprocket sprocket is offline
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Originally Posted by wrtner View Post
This thread is about Davey.

Are you talking about Dumas?
As far as I'm concerned, Dumas hijacked Davey's tech! The fact that Dumas doesn't at least acknowledge Davey concerning this 'discovery' is just wrong. But Dumas gives us something else to go on - I had read up on everything there was on Davey, had tried & failed to replicate the effect.
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  #1853  
Old 11-29-2014, 03:59 PM
wrtner wrtner is offline
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As far as I'm concerned, Dumas hijacked Davey's tech! The fact that Dumas doesn't at least acknowledge Davey concerning this 'discovery' is just wrong. But Dumas gives us something else to go on - I had read up on everything there was on Davey, had tried & failed to replicate the effect.
I reckon that the Dumas physics has nothing to do with that of Davey.

When you worked on Davey, what gear were you using? What results did you get?
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  #1854  
Old 11-29-2014, 04:11 PM
RAMSET RAMSET is offline
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Tune spacing etc etc

Wrtner
Davey used two spheres at a given space and mains voltage
He had testing done and ,,,
what ? _cop 20_ was bandeeed about??

he never disclosed the minutia of the claim except to imply a TUNE

Dumas also claims a Tune

I don't think we can say ABSOLUTELY that these two share nothing in common?
Nor the Savic [Tesla??] Sonic Boiler
just one mans opinion
thx
Chet
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  #1855  
Old 11-29-2014, 04:20 PM
wrtner wrtner is offline
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Originally Posted by RAMSET View Post
Wrtner
Davey used two spheres at a given space and mains voltage
He had testing done and ,,,
what ? _cop 20_ was bandeeed about??

he never disclosed the minutia of the claim except to imply a TUNE

Dumas also claims a Tune

I don't think we can say ABSOLUTELY that these two share nothing in common?
Nor the Savic [Tesla??] Sonic Boiler
just one mans opinion
thx
Chet
I don't think you are right about this.

Dumas offers a COP that is so low that it is not worth the time of day. To check my maths, I tried a straight electric kettle and when I put the results into a spreadsheet for calculation, it gave a COP = 1.00

Savic is just a confusion. Tesla would be interesting if one could hunt down the patent. The beer can is just plain daft.

Davey was very specific. Each bell (a sphere was also used) must be tuned precisely to an octave (not a harmonic) of the mains frequency. As it so happens, bicycle bells have a way of being very close to the third octave of the UK's mains, namely 400hz.

It would be good to know exactly what Sprocket's experimental set up was.
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  #1856  
Old 11-29-2014, 06:24 PM
sprocket sprocket is offline
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.....It would be good to know exactly what Sprocket's experimental set up was.
In a word, crude! I was using baseless-egg-cups, of a few different sizes in the hope I would hit on a 'harmonic' or something. Also varying the distance between them, though not to the almost sub-mm level required by Dumas. I also bought a couple of watt-meters back then to roughly approximate the (non-existent!) efficiency over plain electric kettle boiling. Like I said already, I then tried altering the frequency of a square-wave of a few hundred watts in the hope something would happen - it didn't! I think I posted photos back then on some forum, either this one or OU. Can't remember, it's 6-7 years ago.

As Ramset says, there's practically no 'how-to' available for Davey's setup except vague references to tuning. At least we have a critical-spacing to aim for with Dumas, but this was probably what Davey was referring to by tuning anyway! Dunno, both seem identical to me...

Edit: I found a pic of one of my 'Davey heaters' - the top of this one was adjustable, allowing the inner & outer shell-spacing to be adjusted.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Photo-0117.jpg (111.5 KB, 17 views)
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Last edited by sprocket; 11-29-2014 at 06:54 PM. Reason: Add a pic.
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  #1857  
Old 11-30-2014, 02:33 PM
wrtner wrtner is offline
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Originally Posted by sprocket View Post

As Ramset says, there's practically no 'how-to' available for Davey's setup except vague references to tuning..
You have not worked on a Davey replication.

On this occasion, Chet is not on the ball. The references to tuning are precise.


You need two hemispherical bowls (Davey did use a hemisphere and a sphere) to be drilled through their centres and secured to threaded rod. M6 or M8 is good. They need to be rigged into a structure so they are insulated from each other but in close proximity. (Some people have used insulated and heat proof threaded rod and put both bowls on the same rod. Good if you can find such a rod).

By grinding down the edge of the bowl with a bench grinder or similar, the size needs to be reduced until the note sounded when you strike the bowl is an exact OCTAVE (not a harmonic) of your mains electrical frequency. In the UK and much of the world this is 50 Hz. Therefore you need to aim for 50, 100, 200, 400, 800 etc. (Davey went for 400). If you have a friend who is a musician, he or she is likely to be very helpful.

Note that by grinding you will always INCREASE the note.

Therefore you should buy your bowls so that they sound, in the shop, a little lower than approx G using the guitar pitch pipes thoughtfully placed by you in your trouser pocket (or an octave of it - slightly tricky).

Spectral analysis software should help.

Perform this task with the bowls bolted in position on their threaded rod, and preferably with a power line soldered or bolted on to each bowl. (If you don't then their note will change when you bolt them on their rod and solder up). Mount them in their rig in the tank of water.

If you have a Variac, it would be good to use it. Connect an RCD instant type fuse in the supply circuit and have an electrician check on your installation if you are not experienced.

See page 15:
http://free-energy-info.com/Chapter14.pdf

Also handy:
Frequencies of Musical Notes, A4 = 440 Hz


~~~ The essence of Davey is that the mains power frequency (or octave) = frequency of the first bowl = frequency of the second bowl ~~~
.
.
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Last edited by wrtner; 11-30-2014 at 03:10 PM.
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  #1858  
Old 11-30-2014, 06:44 PM
sprocket sprocket is offline
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Everything you have written above was known & written about 7 years ago, including the talk about bicycle-bells being a harmonic of the 50Hz mains frequency Davey used - yet if this is the path to success, point me to a single successful 'Davey' replication? There isn't one!

As far as I'm concerned, this is all speculation. Maybe resonance and harmonics are the key here, but based on what? - Davey's supposed ability to tune these by ear? This reminds me of Lester Hendershot's ability to construct capacitors & inductors to fractions of a percent of the aimed-for value, using intuition alone - he couldn't explain how he did it. Davey didn't use scopes or frequency meters either, just raw intuition. Davey didn't even leave us with basic current measurements, that might at least have suggested that there was indeed something special happening. I have often wondered about this last point - what on earth was in the minds of those responsible for those recordings of Davey, how could it not have occurred to them that this info was vital! Davey was already a old man then, MIB-suppression would have been the least of his worries.

So yes, mine was not a true Davey replication if you're to insists that it's all down to harmonics etc. Also, when you put all the speculation aside, I cannot see how you can insist that there is no connection between the Davey & Dumas apparatus - they both use the mains, the both consists of 2 spherical parts in close proximity but electrically-isolated, the both seem to show almost-instantaneous boiling and the both are supposedly OU. All apart from the last are facts, not speculation.
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  #1859  
Old 11-30-2014, 08:53 PM
wrtner wrtner is offline
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Originally Posted by sprocket View Post

1. including the talk about bicycle-bells being a harmonic of the 50Hz mains frequency Davey used

2. Davey didn't use scopes or frequency meters either, just raw intuition.

3. So yes, mine was not a true Davey replication.
1. Learn the difference between a harmonic and an octave.

2. ..... like most good guitarists.

3. "not a true Davey replication?". Your work, as described, had NOTHING to do with Davey.

If you want to replicate Davey, do it exactly as he proposes. When you have success, by all means, put in your own improvements.
.
.
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