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Old 07-06-2011, 08:39 AM
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lamare lamare is offline
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Why Einstein's relativity theory is plain wrong

A colleague pointed me to the thunderbolts project, who have some very interesting documentaries on their YouTube channel regarding the Electric Universe:

summary
YouTube - ‪ThunderboltsProject's Channel‬‏

They also have a forum, where I posted this, explaining why Einstein's relativity theory is plain wrong:

Thunderbolts Forum • View topic - General Relativity "slightly" Wrong?

-:-

Hi all,

Since this is my first post on this forum, let me first introduce myself briefly. I hold a masters degree in Electrical Engineering from the University of Twente, The Netherlands, and have been interested in alternative science for quite some time, especially regarding free energy technology. I have studied quite a bit of theory on ether physics, like for example Nikola Tesla, Tom Bearden, Konstantin Meyl and Claus Turtur.

I have come to the conclusion that Einstein's general relativity theory is plain wrong. It is essentially based on the erroneous assumption that the electric and magnetic fields are caused by matter (charge carrierrs), while we know from Quantum Mechanics that it's the other way around.

The root of the error can be found in the Maxwell equations in their currently accepted form. These equations are the foundation for our current understanding of the electro-magnetic fields. Maxwell, a mathematician, formulated his theory on electromagnetic phenomena based on the experimental results by Faraday. At some point, he postulated that the fields he was describing mathematically were being caused by so-called charge carriers, matter. The essential mistake with that is that this assumes that the electric and magnetic fields cannot exist on their own, while we now know for decades that is not the case.

Updaet: refinement based on question at TB forum:
Quote:
I must admit this statement is a bit sloppy. The fields can exist in the medium we used to call the ether. So, I should have said:

The root of the error can be found in the Maxwell equations in their currently accepted form. These equations are the foundation for our current understanding of the electro-magnetic fields. Maxwell, a mathematician, formulated his theory on electromagnetic phenomena based on the experimental results by Faraday. At some point, he postulated that the fields he was describing mathematically were being caused by so-called charge carriers, matter. The essential mistake with that is that this assumes that the electric and magnetic fields cannot exist without being caused by some kind of particle, while we now know for decades that is not the case, because from QM we know that particles and electro-magnetic waves are one and the same thing and are nothing more than alternating/vibrating electric and magnetic fields.

So, essentially the error is that the same fields that cause electromagnetic waves (and thus particles when alternating/vibrating in a certain way) supposedly cannot exist without being caused by some kind of electromagnetic waves (particles). Or, the Maxwell equations say electromagnetism and thus electromagnetic waves are caused by particles while at the same time QM says particles are nothing but electromagnetic waves.

And you simply cannot have it both ways at the same time. Either particles cause the electro-magnetic fields, or the electro-magnec fields cause the particles, but not both.

One of the consequences of this error is that current theory does not accept the existence of longitudinal electric waves trough the vacuum, because .... there are no free charge carriers in the vacuum. Prof. Dr.-Ing. Konstantin Meyl went back to Faraday's experiments and formulated a more general version of the Maxwell equations by deriving them directly from Faraday's laws, while at the same time describing matter (from atomic to cosmic level) as vortexes in the ether: http://www.tuks.nl/pdf/Reference_Mat...or-Maxwell.pdf

Quote:
In the commutability of electric and magnetic field a duality between the two is expressed, which in the Maxwell formulation is lost, as soon as charge carriers are brought into play. Is thus the Maxwell field the special case of a particle free field? Much evidence points to it, because after all a light ray can run through a particle free vacuum. If however fields can exist without particles, particles without fields however are impossible, then the field should have been there first as the cause for the particles. Then the Faraday description should form the basis, from which all other regularities can be derived.
So, with Meyl's theory we have an alternative set of Maxwell equations which are more general, because they put cause and effect in the correct order.

Now we have that in place, we head over to Dr. Charles Kenneth Thornhill (any relation to the Thornhill from the Thunderbolds project?) : Dr Charles Kenneth Thornhill

Even though Thornhill did not re-derive the Maxwell equations along the lines of Meyl, he comes to the same conclusion, from a mathematical perspective:
http://etherphysics.net/CKT4.pdf :

Quote:
The real space-time of Newtonian mechanics and the ether concept is contrasted with the imaginary space-time of the non-ether concept and relativity. In real space-time (x, y, z, ct) characteristic theory shows that Maxwell’s equations and sound waves in any uniform fluid at rest have identical wave surfaces. Moreover, without charge or current, Maxwell’s equations reduce to the same standard wave equation which governs such sound waves. This is not a general and invariant equation but it becomes so by Galilean transformation to any other reference-frame. So also do Maxwell’s equations which are, likewise, not general but unique to one reference-frame. The mistake of believing that Maxwell’s equations were invariant led to the Lorentz transformation and to relativity; and to the misinterpretation of the differential equation for the wave cone through any point as the quadratic differential form of a Riemannian metric in imaginary space-time (x, y, z, ict). Mathematics is then required to tolerate the same equation being transformed in different ways for different applications. Otherwise, relativity is untenable and recourse must then be made to real space-time, normal Galilean transformation and an ether with Maxwellian statistics and Planck’s energy distribution.
More importantly, he lays bare the core of the matter in the same paper:
Quote:
It was the mistaken idea, that Maxwell’s equations and the standard wave equation should be invariant, which led, by a mathematical freak, to the Lorentz transform (which demands the non-ether concept and a universally constant wave-speed) and to special relativity.
So, because Maxwell postulated the fields to be caused by matter and the assumption was made that the vacuum is void, even of EM fields, they "fixed" this obvious error by the introduction of the "freak" Lorentz transform, which demands a universally constant velocity, the speed of light.

Now we know the vacuum is not void, but filled with the so-called zero-point energy field (ZPE). We also know that the speed of light is not constant when matter is present, which is why light breaks in a lens, for example. And since we know matter is caused by EM fields and we also know the vacuum is filled with all kinds of EM radiation, how can you possibly maintain that the speed of light is fixed?

And then the idea that space is supposedly curved. Think about that. You have defined an abstact concept yourself mathematically, which you call a "space" which is nothing more nor less than a way to express what is located where. Like locating the point where a treasure is buried "10 steps east, 25 steps south". But let me just quote the great master himself, Nikola Tesla on this:

Tuks DrippingPedia : Tesla Gives View On Power

Quote:
It might be inferred that I am alluding to the curvature of space supposed to exist according to the teachings of relativity, but nothing could be further from my mind. I hold that space cannot be curved, for the simple reason that it can have no properties. It might as well be said that God has properties. He has not, but only attributes and these are of our own making. Of properties we can only speak when dealing with matter filling the space. To say that in the presence of large bodies space becomes curved, is equivalent to stating that something can act upon nothing. I, for one, refuse to subscribe to such a view.
And of course, Tesla actually measured speeds greater than that of light and shows he had the common sense that seems lost by main stream science today: Tuks DrippingPedia : Tesla No High Speed Limit

Quote:
Stating that the Einstein theory is erroneous in many respects, Dr. Tesla stated as early as 1900, in his patent 787,412, that the current of his radiopower transmitter passed over the surface of the earth with a speed of 292,830 miles a second. According to the Einstein theory, the highest possible speed is 186,300 miles a second.

Tesla indicated knowledge of speeds several times greater than light, and had apparatus designed to project so-called electrons with a speed equal to twice that of light.

Tesla disagreed with the part of the Einstein theory which states that the mass of an object increases with its speed. The mass of a body is unalterable, contended Dr. Tesla, According to the article, "otherwise energy could be produced from nothing, since the kinetic energy acquired in the fall of a body would be greater than that necessary to lift it at a small velocity."
One final quote from Tesla to sum things up:
Tuks DrippingPedia : Tesla Promises To Transmit Force

Quote:
He described relativity as "a beggar wrapped in purple whom ignorant people take for a king." In support of his statement he cited a number of experiments he had conducted, he said, as far back as 1896 on the cosmic ray. He has measured cosmic ray velocities from Antarus, he said, which he found to be fifty times greater than the speed of light, thus demolishing, he contended, one of the basic pillars of the structure of relativity, according to which there can be no speed greater than that of light.

[...]

The theory of relativity he described as "a mass of error and deceptive ideas violently opposed to the teachings of great men of science of the past and even to common sense."

"The theory, "he said, "wraps all these errors and fallacies and clothes them in magnificent mathematical garb which fascinates, dazzles and makes people blind to the underlying errors. The theory is like a beggar clothed in purple whom ignorant people take for a king. Its exponents are very brilliant men, but they are metaphysicists rather than scientists. Not a single one of the relativity propositions has been proved."

Last edited by lamare; 09-28-2011 at 10:41 AM. Reason: Updated dead link.
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  #2  
Old 07-06-2011, 12:26 PM
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Armagdn03 Armagdn03 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lamare View Post
A colleague pointed me to the thunderbolts project, who have some very interesting documentaries on their YouTube channel regarding the Electric Universe:

summary
YouTube - ‪ThunderboltsProject's Channel‬‏

They also have a forum, where I posted this, explaining why Einstein's relativity theory is plain wrong:

Thunderbolts Forum • View topic - General Relativity "slightly" Wrong?

-:-

Hi all,

Since this is my first post on this forum, let me first introduce myself briefly. I hold a masters degree in Electrical Engineering from the University of Twente, The Netherlands, and have been interested in alternative science for quite some time, especially regarding free energy technology. I have studied quite a bit of theory on ether physics, like for example Nikola Tesla, Tom Bearden, Konstantin Meyl and Claus Turtur.

I have come to the conclusion that Einstein's general relativity theory is plain wrong. It is essentially based on the erroneous assumption that the electric and magnetic fields are caused by matter (charge carrierrs), while we know from Quantum Mechanics that it's the other way around.

The root of the error can be found in the Maxwell equations in their currently accepted form. These equations are the foundation for our current understanding of the electro-magnetic fields. Maxwell, a mathematician, formulated his theory on electromagnetic phenomena based on the experimental results by Faraday. At some point, he postulated that the fields he was describing mathematically were being caused by so-called charge carriers, matter. The essential mistake with that is that this assumes that the electric and magnetic fields cannot exist on their own, while we now know for decades that is not the case.

One of the consequences of this error is that current theory does not accept the existence of longitudinal electric waves trough the vacuum, because .... there are no free charge carriers in the vacuum. Prof. Dr.-Ing. Konstantin Meyl went back to Faraday's experiments and formulated a more general version of the Maxwell equations by deriving them directly from Faraday's laws, while at the same time describing matter (from atomic to cosmic level) as vortexes in the ether: http://www.tuks.nl/pdf/Reference_Mat...or-Maxwell.pdf



So, with Meyl's theory we have an alternative set of Maxwell equations which are more general, because they put cause and effect in the correct order.

Now we have that in place, we head over to Dr. Charles Kenneth Thornhill (any relation to the Thornhill from the Thunderbolds project?) : Dr Charles Kenneth Thornhill

Even though Thornhill did not re-derive the Maxwell equations along the lines of Meyl, he comes to the same conclusion, from a mathematical perspective:
http://etherphysics.net/CKT4.pdf :



More importantly, he lays bare the core of the matter in the same paper:


So, because Maxwell postulated the fields to be caused by matter and the assumption was made that the vacuum is void, even of EM fields, they "fixed" this obvious error by the introduction of the "freak" Lorentz transform, which demands a universally constant velocity, the speed of light.

Now we know the vacuum is not void, but filled with the so-called zero-point energy field (ZPE). We also know that the speed of light is not constant when matter is present, which is why light breaks in a lens, for example. And since we know matter is caused by EM fields and we also know the vacuum is filled with all kinds of EM radiation, how can you possibly maintain that the speed of light is fixed?

And then the idea that space is supposedly curved. Think about that. You have defined an abstact concept yourself mathematically, which you call a "space" which is nothing more nor less than a way to express what is located where. Like locating the point where a treasure is buried "10 steps east, 25 steps south". But let me just quote the great master himself, Nikola Tesla on this: Nikola Tesla : Pioneer Radio Engineer Gives Views on Power


And of course, Tesla actually measured speeds greater than that of light and shows he had the common sense that seems lost by main stream science today: Nikola Tesla : No High Speed Limit, Says Tesla



One final quote from Tesla to sum things up: Nikola Tesla : Tesla, 79, Promises to Transmit Force
I see this topic get thrown about a lot, but this was a well posed argument with some good information to follow, thank you!

There is an interesting concept brought forth by Einstein, and that was the fundamental observation of the inseparability of space and time, Perhaps the treatment of this concept was poor, but hey, looks like its starting to straighten itself out.
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Old 07-06-2011, 03:08 PM
mikrovolt mikrovolt is offline
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At columbia university there should be an account
of how and why modification to Einstein's theory
were made. Dr. Chein-Shiung Wu would have wriiten down
what happened about the time Lee and Yang were writting
there papers. Need to go to the source.
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Old 07-06-2011, 03:28 PM
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Interveiw link
YouTube - ‪MrSuperpotatotomato's Channel‬‏

Excelent interveiw lamare. It often strikes me that a lot of these guys say similar things. The way he spoke of the atom reminded me of this drawing of Walters. It has curved spikes which are the two parts to the wave. And the zero point in the middle he says is like a wallnut. It fits his desciption perfectly. Oh dear me. Coincidence ?
https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=32a91...1887&sc=photos

And the sun and planet pole reversals.
https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=32a91...1291&sc=photos

Diagrams from "The Universal One" by Walter Russell.
More and more it seems these things may infact be true, the key may be in studying the works of These controversial old guys. It is good that people like Maurice are pushing these new ways of looking at things he may have had some inspiration from elsewhere that he does not mention but nevermind, main thing is getting it out there and accepted.

The junction of the electron and the proton = neutron = semiconductor
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Old 07-06-2011, 03:33 PM
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If you're going to go to the great master Tesla, you better also go over the fact that he did not believe in so called Hertzian waves (ie Electro-Magnetic waves). So that part of your reason as to why Relativity is wrong is not congruent with Tesla. Tesla said those ideas are not with his observations.

Tesla believed that so called EM waves were really longitudinal waves in the ether. They were basically sound waves in the ether. He eventually came to say that transverse Hertzian waves were non-existent. There are no EM waves according to Tesla.

This is where people go wrong when they start buying into the modern concepts of physical reality and try to interpret Tesla through these ideas. Tesla is 180 degrees opposite to the modern ideas.

The more higher "education" you have, the tougher time you're going to have understanding Tesla. You've been too brainwash with misinformation to even begin to grasp the reality Tesla was presenting. So when someone with some degrees starts to say he understands Tesla, I know he probably doesn't even understand enough basics to know he doesn't know what he's talking about. He's been lied to so long that he has a hard time coming out of his mental cage. His mind has been carefully mishandled.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lamare View Post
The root of the error can be found in the Maxwell equations in their currently accepted form. These equations are the foundation for our current understanding of the electro-magnetic fields. Maxwell, a mathematician, formulated his theory on electromagnetic phenomena based on the experimental results by Faraday. At some point, he postulated that the fields he was describing mathematically were being caused by so-called charge carriers, matter. The essential mistake with that is that this assumes that the electric and magnetic fields cannot exist on their own, while we now know for decades that is not the case.
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Old 07-06-2011, 03:39 PM
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I think this diagram explains sunspots, not sure though.

https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=32a91...1808&sc=photos

Seems plausable

I'll have to see if there are some more of his interveiws, he makes some sense to me.

Those guys at CERN annoy me. They should have read walters book they could have saved a lot of money.
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Old 07-06-2011, 03:47 PM
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If any of you guys want to really understand Tesla, you better understand one thing.

TESLA DID NOT BELIEVE IN ELECTROMAGNETIC WAVES!


Until you can understand this simple fact that goes against most of modern science, you can NOT understand Tesla.

Read his article here that goes over this.

"The True Wireless" by Nikola Tesla

To quote the editor:

In this remarkable and complete story of his discovery of the "True Wireless" and the principles upon which transmission and reception, even in the present day systems, are based, Dr. Nikola Tesla shows us that he is indeed the "Father of the Wireless." To him the Hertz wave theory is a delusion; it looks sound from certain angles, but the facts tend to prove that it is hollow and empty. He convinces us that the real Hertz waves are blotted out after they have traveled but a short distance from the sender. It follows, therefore, that the measured antenna current is no indication of the effect, because only a small part of it is effective at a distance. The limited activity of pure Hertz wave transmission and reception is here clearly explained, besides showing definitely that in spite of themselves, the radio engineers of today are employing the original Tesla tuned oscillatory system. He shows by examples with different forms of aerials that the signals picked up by the instruments must actually be induced by earth currents—not etheric space waves. Tesla also disproves the "Heaviside layer" theory from his personal observations and tests. EDITOR.

This is where people like Bearden get it wrong. Smart guy for sure but too brainwashed by modern "science" to really convey the truth about Tesla.

In the end, Tesla didn't buy into Hertzian waves. When people try to combine EM wave theory with Tesla, they are showing a lack of basic understanding of Tesla.
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Old 07-06-2011, 03:57 PM
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I appologise I didn't link this it is from Monsieur's post in the time travel thread I thought it was relevent here too.

My other links above are related to this.
YouTube - ‪MrSuperpotatotomato's Channel‬‏

Sorry i'll link it in my first post above too. My Bad. The interveiw's a goodie.
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Old 07-06-2011, 04:01 PM
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If i may venture a little on this:

First of i would like to say that I am a proponent of the Unifying Fractal Theory (or as i call it the Super-Hologram Theory). Based on this theory, and as some of you are well aware in all of my post i try to point that out, I consider that everything that surrounds us is a Fractal/Coil/Capacitor Adaptive Antenna, and all resonate following the Phi or Law of Octave. now read this:

An electrostatic spatial resonance model for coaxial helical structures with applications to the filamentous bacteriophages.

Quote:
It is found that coaxial helices (as fractal as nature is) with optimally mated symmetries(see definition of fractal:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractal) can lock into spatial resonance configurations that maximize their interaction(all the element in the universe). The resonances are represented as vectors in a discrete three-dimensional space[
An electrostatic spatial resonance model for coaxial helical structures with applications to the filamentous bacteriophages.

from Trees as radiant energy collector

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slider2732 View Post
Ah, that would be a good way of discovering the potential energy

To incorporate trees (fractal pattern ), I have wondered for some time about what may be termed pinging, first tree transmits, other tree bounces back the energy, yet increased due to the child on a swing analogy(exponential function ). The switching time (cycle)of the transistor being the time interval that creates the push effect of the swing, rather than an immediate bounce back again. In such a case, the first tree is the sender Tesla tower (roots being Ground and trunk being tower), the receiver tree is resonant with it. Trimming the tree trims the frequency to match the first tree.
If I May put it in other words:

If you want to understand the world as a system then you need to investigate three key components.

Cycles your 3
Fractal patterns your 6
Exponential functions your 9




If you only knew the magnificence of the 3, 6 and 9, then you would have a key to the universe.
— Nikola Tesla:






FYI

Electromagnetic Wave Localization in Photonic Fractals


http://www.jwri.osaka-u.ac.jp/public...scp-takema.pdf

Quote:
Fractal structures have no periodicity and no translational symmetry like crystal structures.
remember Walter Russell's Law of Crystallization (Harvesting Energy From the Sun Using Crystals)

--------

I do agree with SilverToGold on his statement:

Quote:
TESLA DID NOT BELIEVE IN ELECTROMAGNETIC WAVES!
as long as we don't think as Dr Tesla did, we won't understand how he managed to transfer wireless energy:

FYI: did you know that Sir William Crookes was a mentor to Dr Tesla

see post: http://www.energeticforum.com/145702-post58.html
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Old 07-06-2011, 04:18 PM
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Tesla saw the world probably the same way, a stack of fractally arranged resonant circuits, and all he needed was to know the right combination of

Cycles and Fractal patterns/Fractal Frequency to trigger the exponential effect.
..

also:

Quote:
Originally Posted by clueless View Post
That from a 2002 article. Unlike so many other promising breakthroughs this is one that has been widely implemented.
To further quote from the article: "The innovation, called Fractal Structure Circuit(TM) (FSC), uses fractalized conductor paths to replace the capacitors, inductors, and resistors in "RLC" circuits."
And another quote: ""Virtually every electronic device uses coils and capacitors to form RLC circuits. These discrete components are arranged by tried and true rules to get the circuit to perform as needed. What we've done is ask: can a fractal pattern, with its self-capacitance and self-inductance, be used to eliminate components and still get the equivalent RLC circuit? We've found that the answer is yes; and in most uses, especially at microwave frequencies, all components can be replaced by conductive fractal patterns or 3D structures."
And one more blurb from that article: " Looking at the Fractal Structured Circuit(TM) one sees, for example, a beautiful etched copper pattern replacing the usual traces connecting button or canned shaped capacitors and coils (or their SMT counterparts). "
Here is the link to that article.
Fractal Antenna Systems, Inc.
Apparently it is in wide use in cell phones, their antennas and some microwave circuits.
People are making homemade fractal HD antennas using coat hangers as one instance of using a common material.
I think this feature; fractuals should be used in some builds to take advantage of a wideband of frequencies and resonance. Maybe it will be useful in the Muller/Romerouk build.
For those that be interested google fractal circuits and fractal antennas.
I do not have the resources/space/knowledge to do any builds at the moment but I am curious enough to verify if a HD antenna can be made simply using fractals and common materials.
Any way something to consider.
-RG signing off
YouTube - ‪Fractals: frequency, the heart, and cancer‬‏

You cannot invent, you can only discover

see also: The Brain is an Advanced Fractal Antenna
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Old 07-06-2011, 04:27 PM
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That is why the EM theory is pushed so hard. With this false idea of how things work, people are not able to really understand Tesla and what his ideas were on the ether. How can you understand Tesla's patents or words when you don't even know what his understanding about the fundamentals were?

When guys like Meyl and other degreed gentlemen try to explain Tesla using Maxwell's equations, they are showing how little they understand.

If Tesla held that Hertz was wrong and his waves does not exist, he is also saying Maxwell is wrong. How many people do you see trying to talk about Tesla and in the same breath try to tie Maxwell and Hertz into that "understanding"? How can that be when Tesla said EM waves don't exist and that they are just longitudinal waves in the ether?

And Scalar waves? Come one guys, scalar is not a wave. Scalars are a constant in an equation and they do not change in time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MonsieurM View Post
I do agree with SilverToGold of his statement:

as long as we don't think as Dr Tesla did, we won't understand how he managed to transfer wireless energy:

FYI: did you know that Sir William Crookes was a mentor to Dr Tesla
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Old 07-06-2011, 04:58 PM
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as the saying goes: To understand a man, you've got to walk a mile in his shoes, whether they fit or not.

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Old 07-06-2011, 05:29 PM
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I don't want to get into another argument but at the risk of that I don't think in that artical Tesla says he doesn't believe in Hertz waves at all. Just that his system did not use Hertz waves. And they they have little or nothing to do with his system, not that he didn't beleive that they exsisted, i don't think anyway.

He says this.
Quote:
"Nothing is more important in the present phase of development of the wireless art than to dispose of the dominating erroneous ideas. With this object I shall advance a few arguments based on my own observations which prove that Hertz waves have little to do with the results obtained even at small distances. "
And in the next paragraph I point to the bolded text. The radiations he mentions here are the Hertz waves.
"
Quote:
In Fig. 13 a transmitter is shown radiating space waves of considerable frequency. It is generally believed that these waves pass along the earth's surface and thus affect the receivers. I can hardly think of anything more improbable than this "gliding wave" theory and the conception of the "guided wireless" which are contrary to all laws of action and reaction. Why should these disturbances cling to a conductor where they are counteracted by induced currents, when they can propagate in all other directions unimpeded? The fact is that the radiations of the transmitter passing along the earth's surface are soon extinguished, the height of, the inactive zone indicated in the diagram, being some function of the wave length, the bulk of the waves traversing freely the atmosphere. Terrestrial phenomena which I have noted conclusively show that there is no Heaviside layer, or if it exists, it is of no effect. It certainly would be unfortunate if the human race were thus imprisoned and forever without power to reach out into the depths of space.
He was trying to point out that his system because it exibited "Action at a distance" did not utilize Hertz waves because if it did the effective distance would be very short.

I don't see any evidence that Tesla denied the very Exsistance of Tranverse Electromagnetic Waves.

In my opinion A Scalar wave is like a wave of people it does not go up and down just forward. But it is still a wave, in my opinion the term Scalar wave is valid. Don't ask me to explain my reasoning in any more detail than that though. I just see it as a longways push. I don't get hung up on the term wave. But I use it.

Cheers
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Old 07-06-2011, 05:45 PM
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Tesla was not able to reproduce Hertz original experiment and he pointed out to Hertz that his results were a result of error in Hertz's measurement technique. So Hertz's experiment that "proved" Maxwell's theory never worked as stated.

So where does this leave room for Hertz's proof as valid? It has never been proved by experimentation according to Tesla.
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Old 07-06-2011, 05:52 PM
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"I considered this so important that in 1892 I went to Bonn, Germany, to confer with Dr. Hertz in regard to my observations. He seemed disappointed to such a degree that I regretted my trip and parted from him sorrowfully. During the succeeding years I made numerous experiments with the same object, but the results were uniformly negative. In 1900, however, after I had evolved a wireless transmitter which enabled me to obtain electro-magnetic activities of many millions of horse-power, I made a last desperate attempt to prove that the disturbances emanating from the oscillator were ether vibrations akin to those of light, but met again with utter failure. For more than eighteen years I have been reading treatises, reports of scientific transactions, and articles on Hertz-wave telegraphy, to keep myself informed, but they have always imprest me like works of fiction."
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Old 07-06-2011, 06:09 PM
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When trying to replicate the experiment, he couldn't prove it, and actually discovered something far greater...
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Old 07-06-2011, 06:22 PM
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When trying to replicate the experiment, he couldn't prove it, and actually discovered something far greater...
Yes, it's called the truth!
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Old 07-06-2011, 06:29 PM
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So in essence - Tesla - never found proof in his experiments, of the mathematical ideas that were being flaunted as proven.

To read it, tells me that he was frustrated with what he saw in experiments, verses what was said in Tech journals of the day. This kept troubling him!
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Old 07-06-2011, 08:34 PM
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If any of you guys want to really understand Tesla, you better understand one thing.

TESLA DID NOT BELIEVE IN ELECTROMAGNETIC WAVES!


Until you can understand this simple fact that goes against most of modern science, you can NOT understand Tesla.

Read his article here that goes over this.

"The True Wireless" by Nikola Tesla

To quote the editor:

In this remarkable and complete story of his discovery of the "True Wireless" and the principles upon which transmission and reception, even in the present day systems, are based, Dr. Nikola Tesla shows us that he is indeed the "Father of the Wireless." To him the Hertz wave theory is a delusion; it looks sound from certain angles, but the facts tend to prove that it is hollow and empty. He convinces us that the real Hertz waves are blotted out after they have traveled but a short distance from the sender. It follows, therefore, that the measured antenna current is no indication of the effect, because only a small part of it is effective at a distance. The limited activity of pure Hertz wave transmission and reception is here clearly explained, besides showing definitely that in spite of themselves, the radio engineers of today are employing the original Tesla tuned oscillatory system. He shows by examples with different forms of aerials that the signals picked up by the instruments must actually be induced by earth currents—not etheric space waves. Tesla also disproves the "Heaviside layer" theory from his personal observations and tests. EDITOR.

This is where people like Bearden get it wrong. Smart guy for sure but too brainwashed by modern "science" to really convey the truth about Tesla.

In the end, Tesla didn't buy into Hertzian waves. When people try to combine EM wave theory with Tesla, they are showing a lack of basic understanding of Tesla.
First of all: May I kindly request you guys to take it easy with the font size button? There's no need to yell, I hear ya....

Let's first make one thing clear: Tesla was a human being as far as I know, not a saint. And human beings do make mistakes, including Tesla. As much as I like Tesla's theories and as much as I regard him the greatest scientist and teacher in recorded history, I can not and will not regard his theories as infallible and perfect in every way.

Having said that, I am afraid I have to disagree up to a certain extent with Tesla on his complete rejection of the Herz wave theory. As it happens, I just read part of his article on the True Wireless in the train home.

As far as I can tell, Tesla regarded EM waves as being "just" transversal electro-magnetic waves, just like the kind of waves that travel on a pond when you throw a rock in there. If that is what he was rejecting, I totally agree with him, because you cannot have transversal waves inside a fluid. Not in water and also not in the ether. Only at the border of two media with a different density you can have classic transversal waves, IMHO. So, in that sense I agree with Tesla.

However, there is a third way waves can occur, both in fluids as in the ether, which are waves that literally run in circles, or, around the surface of some kind of vortex. So, you cannot have actual transversal waves inside the ether, but you can have localized standing waves making some kind of bubble inside the fluid. And such bubbles, vortexes, are actually what we call particles and which are the cause for the well known wave-particle duality, which forms the basis for Quantum Mechanics:

Introduction to quantum mechanics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Quote:
In 1924, Louis de Broglie proposed the idea that just as light has both wave-like and particle-like properties, matter also has wave-like properties. The wavelength, λ, associated with a particle is related to its momentum, p. [...] The relationship, called the de Broglie hypothesis, holds for all types of matter. Thus all matter exhibits properties of both particles and waves.
Quote:
In the double-slit experiment as originally performed by Thomas Young and Augustin Fresnel in 1827, a beam of light is directed through two narrow, closely spaced slits, producing an interference pattern of light and dark bands on a screen. If one of the slits is covered up, one might naively expect that the intensity of the fringes due to interference would be halved everywhere. In fact, a much simpler pattern is seen, a simple diffraction pattern. Closing one slit results in a much simpler pattern diametrically opposite the open slit. Exactly the same behaviour can be demonstrated in water waves, and so the double-slit experiment was seen as a demonstration of the wave nature of light.
The diffraction pattern produced when light is shone through one slit (top) and the interference pattern produced by two slits (bottom). The interference pattern from two slits is much more complex, demonstrating the wave-like propagation of light.

The double-slit experiment has also been performed using electrons, atoms, and even molecules, and the same type of interference pattern is seen. Thus all matter possesses both particle and wave characteristics.
So, there you are. Tesla was right in that there cannot be classic transversal waves trough the ether, but it appears he simply never considered the possibility that EM waves could actually consist of some kind of vortex-like structure along which standing electro-magnetic waves can and do propagate trough the ether.

And actually, in the area just around a transmitter antenna the fields have different characteristics than further away from an antenna. Remember what I said about the possibility of having transversal waves at the border of two media? How about the border between antenna and the air?

This distinction is known as "near field" versus "far field":

Near and far field - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Quote:
The "far-field", which extends from about two wavelengths distance from the antenna to infinity, is the region in which the field acts as "normal" electromagnetic radiation. The power of this radiation decreases as the square of distance from the antenna, and absorption of the radiation has no effect on the transmitter. By contrast, the "near-field", which is inside about one wavelength distance from the antenna, is a region in which there are strong inductive and capacitative effects from the currents and charges in the antenna, which do not behave like far-field radiation. These effects decrease in power far more quickly with distance, than does the far-field radiation power.
Now re-read Tesla's paper with that in mind.....

So, in essence, Tesla did not realise that there was such a thing as a near field and a far field. And actually, modern science literally makes "things" known as "virtual photons" up in order to hide the fact that they don't have the slightest idea what they are really talking about:

Quote:
In the quantum view of electromagnetic interactions, far field effects are manifestations of real photons, while near field effects are due to a mixture of real and virtual photons. Virtual photons composing near-field fluctuations and signals, have effects which are far shorter range than do real photons.
Yes, that's what it says. Near field effects are due to a mixture of something real and something completely made up aka "virtual", which is literally another word for "imaginary" or "not real".

Update: Prof. Meyl shows this very nicely in his "Wireless Tesla Transponder":
http://www.tuks.nl/pdf/Reference_Mat...ransponder.pdf

Quote:
In the text books one finds the detachment of a wave from the dipole accordingly explained. If we regard the structure of the outgoing fields, then we see field vortices, which run around one point, which we can call vortex center. We continue to recognize in the picture, how the generated field structures establish a shock wave, as one vortex knocks against the next [see Tesla: 1].
Thus a Hertzian dipole doesn’t emit Hertzian waves! An antenna as near-field without exception emits vortices, which only at the transition to the far-field unwind to electromagnetic waves.
However, the accompaning explanation sucks, because IMHO the far-field actually consists of vortices, "particles" with that mysterious wave-particle duality, so he may have to re-do some of his homework.

Update 2: here's a nice page on Vortexes:
VORTEX
With thanks to Cherryman:
Great resource on ether theory

Last edited by lamare; 07-06-2011 at 09:15 PM.
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Old 07-06-2011, 09:44 PM
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I think you underestimate Tesla. I read JJ Thompsons work and he in 1893 said that matter was swirls in the ether. He stole this from Tesla I believe since the paper was in regards to Faraday's tube of force that transfered momentum through the ether.

Tesla was also a proponent of Walter Russell who said the same thing about vortexes in the ether.

I also believe Tesla said that all things are derived from the ether and will return to the ether.

So I think you are wrong in saying Tesla was never considered vortex swirls in the ether.

All these ideas that seem so new now are actually old ideas.

-------------------------------

The double-slit experiment has also been performed using electrons, atoms, and even molecules, and the same type of interference pattern is seen. Thus all matter possesses both particle and wave characteristics.
So, there you are. Tesla was right in that there cannot be classic transversal waves trough the ether, but it appears he simply never considered the possibility that EM waves could actually consist of some kind of vortex-like structure along which standing electro-magnetic waves can and do propagate trough the ether."
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Old 07-06-2011, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by SilverToGold View Post
I think you underestimate Tesla. I read JJ Thompsons work and he in 1893 said that matter was swirls in the ether. He stole this from Tesla I believe since the paper was in regards to Faraday's tube of force that transfered momentum through the ether.

Tesla was also a proponent of Walter Russell who said the same thing about vortexes in the ether.

I also believe Tesla said that all things are derived from the ether and will return to the ether.

So I think you are wrong in saying Tesla was never considered vortex swirls in the ether.

All these ideas that seem so new now are actually old ideas.
Yes, they are old ideas and that's why the best textbooks you can find were written before WW-II.

I am aware that Tesla liked Russels work and that he advised Russel not to go public with it. So, he must indeed have considered vortex swirls in the ether at some point and he also was aware of Einstein's relativity theory at some point and surely was also aware of Quantum Mechanics at some point.

However, "The True Wireless" was written in 1919, while in WP quoted in my post, it says: "In 1924, Louis de Broglie proposed the idea that just as light has both wave-like and particle-like properties, matter also has wave-like properties." That suggests Tesla did not know about wave-particle duality at the time he wrote "The True Wireless" and therefore considered matter as vortexes, but EM waves, or as he called them at the time: "Herzian waves", as classic transversal waves.

And Russel wrote "The Universal One" in 1926 ( Walter Russell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ), which is also later than 1919.

So, it may very well be that he did not consider EM waves (in the far-field) as being vortexes in the ether at the time of writing this article, because if he did, he would not have completely rejected Herz theory, but would have written something along the lines I explained....

Last edited by lamare; 07-06-2011 at 10:14 PM.
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Old 07-06-2011, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Farmhand View Post
I think this diagram explains sunspots, not sure though.

https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=32a91...1808&sc=photos

Seems plausable

I'll have to see if there are some more of his interveiws, he makes some sense to me.

Those guys at CERN annoy me. They should have read walters book they could have saved a lot of money.


3...6...9

I highly recommend that you read this blog, very interesting:

The Philosopher Stoned sums it up very well

All truth passes through 3 stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
Arthur Schopenhauer

ps:Farmhand, awesome diagram collection

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Old 07-06-2011, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by lamare View Post
First of all: May I kindly request you guys to take it easy with the font size button? There's no need to yell, I hear ya....

Let's first make one thing clear: Tesla was a human being as far as I know, not a saint. And human beings do make mistakes, including Tesla. As much as I like Tesla's theories and as much as I regard him the greatest scientist and teacher in recorded history, I can not and will not regard his theories as infallible and perfect in every way.

Whether Dr Tesla was right or wrong in his theory is subject to debate, but you are missing the point, in order for us to understand How he succeeded in transferring energy wirelessly you have to look through his eyes, not yours

As long as you persist in viewing his experiments through your own referential, you are condemned to replicate his experiment for educational purpose (ie: garage tinkering). Modulate your mind to match his and I'm sure a world of inspiration awaits us. I am sure that his theory may show some discrepancies, but remember this, he was trying to explain what he observed in his experiments based on what he believed to be true not the other way around. From his own words:

Quote:
Experience is made before the law is formulated, both are related like cause an effect. Nicholas Tesla
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Old 07-07-2011, 01:56 AM
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Well said MonsieurM.

I think Lamare's thread is very interesting and I agree with the idea that Einstein is wrong, I just wanted to make a point that Tesla very clearly does not buy into this "modernism" brought about by Einstein. Tesla was very aware of all the works being done after him and he had already answered most of these questions for himself to quite a high level.

Who is right and who is wrong?

Well, let's see... Einstein's work is very open and out there for everyone to see. There has been a massive push of his stolen ideas. We are constantly inundated by his "genius". You can find any of his writings and he is praised by the main stream science. He is one of the father's of quantum mechanics and mainstream science ideas.

Tesla's work has been stolen and hidden away. The government confiscated his work and combed out all the really great stuff. His things were grabbed before his body was even cold and has never been released by the government by the office of Alien Property even though he WAS a US citizen at the time of his death. His stuff is classified above the nuclear bomb information. He has been marginalized and almost erased from science books. He had over 700 patents. You will not find even half that number available. Where are they?

So who do you guys really think knew what he was talking about?
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Old 07-07-2011, 02:34 AM
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OK I'll bite and I'm a little confused.

So are the hertz waves refered to the same as Transverse Electro Magnetic waves ? Theoretically.

So is it impossible for hertz waves to actually exsist ?

Then what powers my lights ?

When we use wire's do hertz waves travel the border between the wire and the air or the insulator.

The border of two media, water and air or wire and air. seems maybe even two layers of air of different densities, or metals.

Are two layers of air of different density considered different media.

Then can somebody describe the nature of the electricity that is flowing to my house from the grid system ?

Lets not get ahead of ourselves and make any rash deciscions here.

Makes me wonder how Tesla's system could be so different if there is no EM to be different from.

Cheers
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Old 07-07-2011, 06:31 AM
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Could it be that tesla considered the "hertzian wave theory" and electromagnetic radiation to be different things? Even though people since the beginning of the theory have referred to electromagnetic waves as hertzian waves, tesla may not have conflated the two. He could have logically disagreed with Hertz's theory while at the same time understanding transverse electromagnetic waves.

Consider the following 1916 quote from "Tesla on his work with Alternating Currents"

Nikola Tesla On His Work With Alternating Currents -- Chapter IV

Quote:
Counsel

Let's see if I understand this correctly.* If you have radiation or electromagnetic waves going from your system, the energy is wasted?

Tesla

Absolutely wasted.* From my circuit you can get either electromagnetic waves, 90 percent of electromagnetic waves if you like, and 10 percent in the current energy that passes through the earth.* Or, you can reverse the process and get 10 percent of the energy in electromagnetic waves and 90 percent in energy of the current that passes through the earth.
So Tesla does acknowledge electromagnetic waves, but talks about how the amount of power required to transmit intelligence with them is excessive. Radio stations, television stations, cell phone towers, HAARP, all waste huge amounts of energy because they are based on (according to tesla) the flawed Hertz theory.

I really don't see how the claim "tesla believed transverse electromagnetic waves did not exist" can be made when tesla himself talks about making them. At the same time I do see how tesla could have not agreed with the Hertzian wave theory.
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Old 07-07-2011, 11:57 AM
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Let's try to turn this a bit around (think of a Rubic Cube ); Let's assume that Einstein was wrong. the true question is then , what did Tesla believe in (I have my own little theory on that ) when he was conducting his experiments...
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Old 07-07-2011, 12:01 PM
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I'll Start:

Quote:
Quite different conditions exist in my system in which the electromagnetic waves or radiations are designedly minimized. the connection of one of, the terminals of the transmitting circuit to the ground having, itself, the effect of reducing the energy of these radiations to about one-half, Under observance of 'proper rules and artifices the distance is of little or no consequence, and by skillful application of the principle of "individualization," repeatedly referred to the messages may be rendered both non-interfering and non-interferable. This invention, which I have described in technical publications, attempts to imitate, in a very crude way, the nervous system in the human body.' Nicolas Tesla
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Old 07-07-2011, 01:13 PM
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Let's quote Eric Dollard on the Herzian waves matter:

Tuks DrippingPedia : Theory Of Wireless Power

Quote:
Upon completion of these wireless plants in 1919 the U.S. government established the Radio Corporation Of America (R.C.A.) to take control of the plants constructed upon U.S. territory. R.C.A., Marconi Wireless Co., and others went on to develop wireless (now radio) communication based upon transverse, or Hertzian, waveforms. The culmination of the transverse wave antenna was the R.C.A. type "D" director, later to become the well known rhombic antenna, figure (2).

These developments firmly entrenched the use of Hertzian waves in the practice of wireless communication, thereby diverting interest from the waveforms discovered by Dr. Nikola Tesla. Tesla's progress in commercial development was further delayed by his absolute insistance upon establisihing a perfect system, the "World System", of wireless power and communication. The World System was much more costly and complex than the simple installations of Marconi. To quote Dr. Tesla's thoughts about the development of wireless at this point in history:

"The commercial application of the art has led to the construction of larger transmitters and multipilication of their number, greater distances had to be covered and it became imperative to employ receiving devices of ever greater sensitiveness. All these changes have co-operated in emphasizing the trouble and seriously impairing the reliability and value of the plants. To such a degree has this been the case that conservative business men and financiers have come to look upon this method of conveying intelligence as one offering but very limited possibilities, and the Government has deemed it advisable to assume control. This unfortunate state of affairs, fatal to the enlishment of capital and healthful competitive development, could have been avoided had electricians not remained to this day under a delusive theory and had the practical exploiters of this advance not permitted enterprise to outrun technical competence".

Dr. Tesla remained unswayed by these commercial developments and their impact upon scientific thought. Tesla understood that the transverse, or Hertzian, waveform was useless for the transmission of electric energy on an industrial scale. The scattering nature of these waves represents the primary limitation to efficient energy transfer, to quote:

"Nothing illustrates this better than the recent demonstrations of a number of experts with very short waves, which have created the impression that power will be eventually transmitted by such means. In reality, experiments of this kind are the very denial of the possibility of economic transmission of electric energy."

This of course brings to mind the recent proposal to transmit from a satellite in outer space megawatts of photo-voltaic energy via a micro-wave beam down to the earth's surface.

Now the essence according to Dollard:

Tuks DrippingPedia : Induction In The Dimension Of Time
Quote:
The complimentary nature of magnetic and dielectric inductions led maxwell to discover the existance of a constant numerical proportion between the units of measure in magnetism and the units of measure in. dielectricity, this constant being numerically equal to the velocity of light squared. This famous discovery led Maxwell to the THEORY OF ELECTRO-MAGNETISM, this theory stating that electric waves are ident*ical to waves of light, and thereby gave the notion that magnetism and dielectricity are inseparable.

The Maxwell theory of electro-magnetism dominated research into electric waves, particularly after the experiments of H. Hertz. Nikola Tesla comment on this matter:

"I do not hesitate to say that in a short time it will be recognized as one of the most remarkable and inexplicable aberrations of the scientific mind which has ever been recorded in history."

Unfortunately this time has not yet arrived.

Quote:
Prof. J.J. Thompson took a much less mathematical approach and more physical approach to Faraday's discoveries. Prof. Thompson considered Faraday's contiguous aether particles and lines of induction as CONCRETE PHYSICAL REALITIES, despite the shift in contemporary thought (cir 1900) back to what resembles action at a distance thru an aetherless, and now a spiritless, dead, space.

Thompson considered the propagation of magnetic inductions as dis*tinctly INDEPENDENT of each other, rather than these two inductions propagating cojointly as given by the theory of electro-magnetism. He conceived the propagation of magnetic induction, because of the lines being transverse to the direction of propagation, as being retarded by the broadside drag they encounter in their motion thru the aether; Whereas the propagation of dielectric induction, because of these lines being directed along the path of propagation, are not retarded, but glide smoothly thru the aether with little or no opposition to motion.

Analogously, the propagation of a parachute thru the atmosphere is akin to magnetic propagation and hence the effect of drag, whereas the prop*agation of a missile thru the atmosphere is akin to dielectric propagation. Hence, dielectric induction propagates faster and thus arrives sooner than the magnetic induction, and thus sooner than the electro-magnetic energy. This concept is of prime importance for the understanding of the works of Dr. Nikola Tesla.
Quote:
The velocity of dielectric propagation was experimentally verified by Prof. Wheatstone to be π/2 times faster than the velocity of light. Tesla also states this velocity in his writings on wave propagation.

In view of these scientific discoveries, and the fact that Oliver Heaviside developed a theory of faster than light electrons which was confirmed by Dr. Tesla, it is a wonder how the present notions of electro-magnetism and its limiting velocity as purported by Einstein an his follo*wers have dominated electric theory. It is of particular interest to note that C.P. Steinmetz did not consider Hertzian waves as transmission of energy but as energy loss by the hysteresis of the aether.
Update: ALso check this one out and compare with Eric Dollard, who also says that Tesla's wireless system was actually a one-wire system, which uses the Earth itself as a conductor:

Tesla's Big Mistake?
Quote:
Tesla was using the ground as a transmission line. He was correct when he insisted that he was producing longitudinal waves in the "natural medium." He was correct in saying that the ground was not just a voltage reference. In this case the "natural medium" is the population of mobile ions in the dirt and oceans which cause the Earth act as a conductor. He was converting the Earth's surface into a "G-line" conductor. Any electrical device could intercept a portion of that energy, as long as that device was connected to the ground and to an elevated metal object.

So, what was Tesla's big mistake? Initially he did not realize that the Earth's atmosphere was critically important for his system to work. If the Earth had acted like a perfectly-conducting metal ball hanging in a vacuum, then Tesla's system would not have worked. The waves would have travelled along the ground and then shot straight out into space. His system would have been like a "G-line" with a sharp bend in the middle: except for a bit of diffraction, the waves refuse to follow the bend and instead go right off the cable and are lost. Because of the "dielectric" effect of the atmosphere, and also because a conductive ionosphere was present, Tesla's system was feasible. Yet any scientist of the time would "correctly" see that Tesla's system totally violates well-known theory. If Tesla had started out from known theory, he would never have pursued the path he did. Tesla actually started out with empirical observations that the Earth resonated electromagnetically like a struck bell. The atmosphere and the ionosphere made this so, but Tesla only knew that it worked, and he really did not know why, at least at first.

Last edited by lamare; 07-07-2011 at 01:42 PM.
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Old 07-07-2011, 02:30 PM
mikrovolt mikrovolt is offline
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interesting thread, strong reasonings.
Tom Bearden said there are semi longitudinal waves.

As a pure sine wave takes on this kinetic component there
needs to be something observable. This " unobservable event "
was the real obstacle that allowed business, industry and power
to subdue tesla's effort. Naudin demonstrated scalar waves can
penetrate a faraday cage.

We are completely surrounded by transverse structured technology
as silver2gold reminds us how this developed. Another question is how to
bring the technology forward.
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