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  #1  
Old 05-26-2011, 12:46 AM
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Vorg Vorg is offline
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How hard to make this Monothermal battery?

Monothermal; What Is It?; Clean Energy from Ambient Heat

This looks interresting and simple. Anyone try to make one or know anything about them?
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Old 05-26-2011, 01:21 AM
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Just a little bit of work has been done on that, though to my knowledge without knowing about the link you gave.

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...rth-light.html
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  #3  
Old 05-26-2011, 02:01 AM
wayne.ct wayne.ct is offline
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Great stuff

Thanks, Vorg. Without ever having seen that before, I did not know the art had advanced to that level. I have done some similar experiments but not exactly the same as what he has patented. Based on my personal experience I would say this is a promising way to proceed. There is enough information in the patents for one to reproduce the effect and extend the development in various ways. If you create a derivative product and decide to produce it commercially, you should consider licensing the patent so you don't get sued. After I get some more experience with the idea I may explore contacting them.
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Old 05-26-2011, 02:35 AM
teslaproject teslaproject is offline
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nope

Tested it.

Their numbers were heavily skewed and the performance is not good at all. Still has a SMALL galvanic component even though they don't care to admit it.

It isn't a real solution and just a waste of good copper and aluminium.
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Old 05-26-2011, 08:58 AM
Dingus Dingus is offline
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If it is just drawing electricity from ambient heat, I doubt that it works as well as claimed. I'm with teslaproject on this one.
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Old 04-17-2017, 11:34 PM
FreedomFighter FreedomFighter is offline
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Worth Investigating

For those of you who are seeing this thread for the first time, I would like to say I have successfully replicated the patent using AZ31B and Copper foil. It is by no means a "waste" of good materials as previous commenters have stated.
If you follow the patent and Walter's description, you will learn that standard aluminum is NOT ideal for design. The previous commenter dismisses the device after stating in very vague terms that he has created it, yet posts no raw data of his results. I would expect that using aluminum he very well deserved to get a weak output from his embodiment. This results from a lack of understanding or possibly a lack of preferred materials.
AZ31B is a great place to start because it has high magnesium content, yet due to the aluminum is still stable. Pure magnesium is very unstable in a humid environment, and ambient air nearly always contains humidity.
I am currently experimenting with Chromium Oxide and Sulfur as my intermediary layers. I am consistently getting 1.4V nominal voltage with enough power output to run a small motor spinning a propeller in 75 ambient temperature. This motor runs until it is disconnected by the experimenter.
If anyone is interested in my results, please comment below. I will gladly post if I know that someone is reading.
For now, I wanted to make sure that this thread did not end with the previous comments.
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Old 04-18-2017, 04:57 PM
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Interested - I see AZ31B is readily available even on eBay for not much at all. China suppliers are only a dollar or two for a 4" x 4" sheet shipped. More details on the other ingredients would be of interest.
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Old 04-18-2017, 07:59 PM
Dingus Dingus is offline
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Admittedly, I forgot all about this thread. A few years back, but after this thread, I saw a video where someone described that exact device and demonstrated a replication of it. The original video was taken down, but here's a followup:

I probably thought it had just formed a battery when I first hear about it, but as the guy doing the experiment explains that it works like a solar cell with semiconductors that react to heat instead of light.

The invention really is a great way of making the public accept the idea of free energy without being too "out-there" for the mainstream to accept, because it simply produces energy from heat, but this time without needing both a hot side & a cold side unlike the Peltier effect. If a device were designed to function at very low temperatures & work in conjunction with a heat pump or something similar, it may be the first step to scientifically proving that zero-point energy can be used to produce power.
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Old 04-21-2017, 01:49 PM
Wistiti Wistiti is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreedomFighter View Post
For those of you who are seeing this thread for the first time, I would like to say I have successfully replicated the patent using AZ31B and Copper foil. It is by no means a "waste" of good materials as previous commenters have stated.
If you follow the patent and Walter's description, you will learn that standard aluminum is NOT ideal for design. The previous commenter dismisses the device after stating in very vague terms that he has created it, yet posts no raw data of his results. I would expect that using aluminum he very well deserved to get a weak output from his embodiment. This results from a lack of understanding or possibly a lack of preferred materials.
AZ31B is a great place to start because it has high magnesium content, yet due to the aluminum is still stable. Pure magnesium is very unstable in a humid environment, and ambient air nearly always contains humidity.
I am currently experimenting with Chromic Oxide and Sulfur as my intermediary layers. I am consistently getting 1.4V nominal voltage with enough power output to run a small motor spinning a propeller in 75 ambient temperature. This motor runs until it is disconnected by the experimenter.
If anyone is interested in my results, please comment below. I will gladly post if I know that someone is reading.
For now, I wanted to make sure that this thread did not end with the previous comments.
Interesting !!!
I have ordered some AZ31B and already have copper foil...
Can you please give some more information of how you have build your cells?
Where did you get your intermediary layers? Are they are the best you find?
Thank you!
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Last edited by Wistiti; 04-21-2017 at 01:52 PM.
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  #10  
Old 04-22-2017, 02:32 AM
mikrovolt mikrovolt is offline
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Great to see the success with monothermal cell of Walter Lovell.
Belongs up there with the invention of the photovoltaic cell.
Walter Lovell | Free Energy

In 2011 somewhere on Bedini earth light thread Brad_S had commented about
Lovells use of the mystery Aluminum/Magnesium alloy as we had discussed the galvanic problems with pure Magnesium.
I suggested the 91 series was developed for galvanic corrosion in automotive parts. JB thought that special inks for (spray on) thermal panels would be good idea from a business patent aspect.
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  #11  
Old 04-22-2017, 11:23 AM
wrtner wrtner is offline
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Originally Posted by mikrovolt View Post
... use of the mystery Aluminum/Magnesium alloy ...
I got the idea from that photo that either Al or Mg was suitable, depending on personal preference and availability [subject to the matter that Mg is more reactive and therefore might be better]. Is this wrong? Is there, indeed, a special alloy or mix that the invention relies on?

It would seem that this is his patent: 5945630. (and also 5989721).

http://www.pat2pdf.org/pat2pdf/foo.pl?number=5945630
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Old 04-22-2017, 04:27 PM
RAMSET RAMSET is offline
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a very interesting topic

Rivals Photovoltaic ??

that would be something indeed.

thank s again.

Chet K
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Old 04-23-2017, 04:55 AM
mikrovolt mikrovolt is offline
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The contribution of the Lovell monothermal has technological significance for the thermal class of crystal cells. The conversation about it really is a good one
in order to bring out a better understanding of it. The patent is indeed relevant
however much of the patent is worded for protecting the usefulness by wider set of variations that could be made.

There was a time when the cathode rays were considered over studied
as compared to other parts of the spectrum. It was at this point that
steam engine analogies and electrolysis analogies began to cloud the
aether theories with a larger vocabulary during the ray era.

There were rivals in that period, so it would not surprise me that
we might indulge in similar feudal expressions.

A History of the Theories of Aether and Electricity: Vol. I: The ..., Volume 1 page 265
https://www.archive.org/stream/histo...ge/n5/mode/2up

on page 353 the term aether is still used as the "vehicle of mechanical momentum "
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Old 05-01-2017, 08:17 PM
FreedomFighter FreedomFighter is offline
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Originally Posted by Wistiti View Post
Interesting !!!
I have ordered some AZ31B and already have copper foil...
Can you please give some more information of how you have build your cells?
Where did you get your intermediary layers? Are they are the best you find?
Thank you!
Wistiti, thank you for your interest.
So far I have found that all the materials are available on eBay in small quantities suitable for experimenting.

I agree with other posters that (as is typical in the patent system) the inventor is likely to have left out certain details whether they be ideal materials or topological improvements that can be made.

In my experiments so far I have stumbled on to 3 things:
1) If the Sulfur contacts any of the metals directly, it will corrode the metals and slowly destroy the device.
2) The device can be made using only one intermediary layer.
3) The peak charge voltage from the device remained constant for the same size device using different materials.

My first model used the following:
AZ31B bound to Chromium Oxide with PVA using a 2:1 Cr2O3:PVA mix
Copper bound to Sulfur with PVA using a 2:1 Cr2O3:PVA mix
** This model performed well with a peak voltage of 1.45V at 80 degrees ambient temperature but destroyed itself within about 5 days due to a lack of consideration for the Sulfur's corrosive tendencies. Before its demise, it was able to power a small *single* motor from a micro quadcopter with a voltage under load of about 0.4V. I was not able to collect data on the amp draw before ripping it apart and sanding the corroded surface away to expose fresh metal for the second test.

My second model was made exclusively for the purposes of a stable control test and used the following:
AZ31B bound to Chromium Oxide with PVA using a 2:1 Cr2O3:PVA mix
Copper with a coating of PVA ONLY
**There was no Sulfur in this model; only metals, binder, and Cr2O3 - it achieved the same peak voltage is the first model but with much lower instantaneous power output. It would NOT sustain the motor as the first model did.

Third model is going to require another post later today.
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Last edited by FreedomFighter; 05-02-2017 at 12:23 PM. Reason: corrected CrO3 to Cr2O3
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  #15  
Old 05-01-2017, 11:38 PM
RUE RUE is offline
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Originally Posted by FreedomFighter View Post
Wistiti, thank you for your interest.
So far I have found that all the materials are available on eBay in small quantities suitable for experimenting.

I agree with other posters that (as is typical in the patent system) the inventor is likely to have left out certain details whether they be ideal materials or topological improvements that can be made.

In my experiments so far I have stumbled on to 3 things:
1) If the Sulfur contacts any of the metals directly, it will corrode the metals and slowly destroy the device.
2) The device can be made using only one intermediary layer.
3) The peak charge voltage from the device remained constant for the same size device using different materials.

My first model used the following:
AZ31B bound to Chromium Oxide with PVA using a 2:1 CrO3:PVA mix
Copper bound to Sulfur with PVA using a 2:1 CrO3:PVA mix
** This model performed well with a peak voltage of 1.45V at 80 degrees ambient temperature but destroyed itself within about 5 days due to a lack of consideration for the Sulfur's corrosive tendencies. Before its demise, it was able to power a small *single* motor from a micro quadcopter with a voltage under load of about 0.4V. I was not able to collect data on the amp draw before ripping it apart and sanding the corroded surface away to expose fresh metal for the second test.

My second model was made exclusively for the purposes of a stable control test and used the following:
AZ31B bound to Chromium Oxide with PVA using a 2:1 CrO3:PVA mix
Copper with a coating of PVA ONLY
**There was no Sulfur in this model; only metals, binder, and CrO3 - it achieved the same peak voltage is the first model but with much lower instantaneous power output. It would NOT sustain the motor as the first model did.

Third model is going to require another post later today.
Hi.I too am interested and have some materials on hand to experiment with
and am waiting for the az31b to arrive. What is the size of Your cells? Also have You tried phophorous instead of sulfur? If so what are the results.
Thank You.

Joe
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Old 05-02-2017, 12:52 AM
FreedomFighter FreedomFighter is offline
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Hi.I too am interested and have some materials on hand to experiment with
and am waiting for the az31b to arrive. What is the size of Your cells? Also have You tried phosphorous instead of sulfur? If so what are the results.
Thank You.

Joe
Joe, I'm glad you asked about phosphorus. I'm home for the evening so I have time to put more thought into this post. For my last post, I was still on the clock between taking calls at my day job so I had to cut it short.

First, I will answer a previous question: I am using a 4"x4" section of AZ31B and the same of copper. I have some ideas on how to maximize material that I'll get to later.

Let me address the update I mentioned on the third cell (I'm going to use the term "cell" like you would a battery, solar panel, etc):
For my third attempt, I wanted to use Sulfur but I wanted to make a model that would survive the test of time and not destroy itself. I just finished this model in the afternoon yesterday so it is far too early to describe it in terms of longevity. One thing I noticed in the first design is that as it began to decompose it began to puff, similar to what you'd see with a lithium battery. I am not seeing any of that yet but it's something I'll be looking for, along with discoloration of the copper.
**Here's what was done**
I first coated the entire contact surface of the copper with a thin film of PVA glue, paying close attention to detail so as not to leave any of the surface exposed. I then added one more layer of PVA and let the glue cure again. *protip* A foam brush is very useful for this, as it holds the glue and can be used for application and then cleaned with water later.*/protip*
I then mixed up a batch of Cr2O3:PVA in a 2:1 mix as in previous versions, and coated the surface of the AZ31B with it, using a tool to make an even layer. Again, I paid close attention to ensure that none of the metal was exposed. Once cured, I took a fine sandpaper and buffed it out so the surface was even and flat.
The final phase was to mix up a 1:1 batch of Sulfur:PVA and use that to bond the two surfaces together. Once I had contacted the two surfaces, I sandwiched them in a clamp between to pieces of flat wood and wax paper.
So far, the device has a peak voltage of 1.2V at approximately 80 deg. F ambient temperature. I was a little disappointed, but I did find that this version can run the small motor for a few seconds before sputtering out.
When completed, this thing measures about 2mm thick.

----------------------------

Phosphorus (Specifically: RED Phosphorus):
I would LOVE to use this stuff, but unless one is in possession of a chemical license, it is very difficult to acquire. Apparently some talented individuals have found ways to produce bombs and methamphetamine with red phosphorus, so big brother decided to make it a controlled chemical (they have a funny way of ruining all good things, don't they?). I am working on acquiring some for another test. I may or may not disclose my progress on that.

Some thoughts:
This device is a capacitor which naturally regenerates. The charge is stored on the metal plates unless it has somewhere else to flow. If you haven't thought of it already, try using some low voltage super capacitors to allow a place to store charge. It's a simple alternative to batteries.
A paint should be used on the surface of the copper to prevent it from being damaged by the elements.
There are other topologies which can be imagined whose benefits are maximum usage of available surface area from the individual sheets of metal, I am comparing those to the basic "plate against plate" method described in the patent imagery.
As a previous poster has stated, we must assume that Lovell left something highly significant out of the patent which could be the key to higher output. Our job is to experiment with as many different configurations of the device as possible in hopes to uncover the secret.
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Last edited by FreedomFighter; 05-02-2017 at 12:22 PM.
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Old 05-02-2017, 01:30 AM
Wistiti Wistiti is online now
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:)

Thank's to share your experiments!
I will too when I receive the AZ31B and experiment with it.
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Old 05-02-2017, 12:20 PM
FreedomFighter FreedomFighter is offline
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There is something I need to share about my 2nd and 3rd version of this device which I feel could be negatively affecting its performance.
Due to AZ31B only coming in small sheets and copper coming lengthy rolls, I thought: Why not use more copper than AZ31B and completely cover both sides of AZ31B?
In my recent designs both sides of the AZ31B are covered in PVA+Cr2O3 and the copper surrounds all but a small edge. It's like a taco with the copper as the shell and the AZ31B as the ingredients, with just enough sticking out to make electrical contact.
After getting such poor results off this most recent version, I am going back to the basics of plate-on-plate and focusing on isolation of the intermediary layers from the outer layers. I'm thinking about painting both metal sheets with conductive paint, made by Bare Conductive, which can be found on SparkFun at a decent price. I would hope the paint can provide a conductive path for the "electrons" to flow through while also acting as a barrier to prevent a galvanic component from forming within the cell.

Or we could just get a bunch of Red Phosphorus and be done with all this Sulfur madness.
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Old 05-02-2017, 05:01 PM
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Very interesting topic indeed.
@FreedomFighter,Thank you for sharing your experiences, I will try to get all the materials for testing too.

One thing I noticed is the electronegativity of the sulfur and carbon is very similar but the electrical conductivity is different. Have you tryed
Once I get everything, I think I will test first with activated charcoal powder instead of sulfur, perhaps could help with the corrosion problem you mentioned.
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Old 05-03-2017, 06:25 PM
FreedomFighter FreedomFighter is offline
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That is a good idea. More materials need to be experimented with, and you can find some videos on YouTube of people making models with what they're calling "conductive ink" although IMO the results they are getting relative to the size of their devices are very disappointing.
Another thought that I have is: in the patent, which I have read thoroughly, Walter Lovell includes that electronegativity chart with all the individual elements. We need some sort of chart that we can include in this thread which contains the electronegativity values of different molecules, like Chromium Oxide. I did some simple averaging of the electronegativity of the atoms in a molecule to try to determine the electronegativity of the PVA and the Cr2O3 but I feel that those numbers are not valid.
If anyone has any feedback on how to determine those values, it would be greatly appreciated.
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Old 05-18-2017, 11:58 AM
FreedomFighter FreedomFighter is offline
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Does anyone have any results to post? I am currently working on some smaller 2" x 2" models...
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