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  #91  
Old 06-15-2011, 06:45 AM
Farmhand Farmhand is offline
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Ok a little bit of research and I think I found out what I did wrong. This explains the extreme voltages I was seeing in the tank cap at some points and how I was able to get fluro's to light dimly with 50 Ma input.

Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla Coil - HvWiki

Quote from the wiki, i'll bold a bit of it.
Quote:
A DRSSTC is different than the conventional SSTC due to the addition of a primary tank capacitor, hence, "Dual Resonant." When in a resonant state, the added capacitance in the primary circuit cancels the inductance leaving no reactive component. Primary current flow is now only limited by resistance in the capacitors (ESR) and resistance in the primary windings, which is usually on the order of a few hundred milliohms. In a SSTC, primary current is limited by the primary's inductance and streamer loading. This is the reason a SSTC can run CW or "continuous wave". So a key difference between SSTCs and DRSSTCs is that a DRSSTC usually operates in the transient state, while SSTCs can safely run in the steady state conditions. However, if you were to drive a DRSSTC at it's resonant frequency for too long, a steady state current of many times the safe limit might be possible. This could have the following adverse effects
IGBTs blow from overcurrent - this would happen almost instantanly (few mS) depending on the size of the IGBT.
Overvoltage of the primary capacitor - The extreme current flowing over the primary tank can create voltages tens of times more than the supply voltage. (use Ohm's law to figure out just how high
)
I have to do some calculations and thinking about how to harness this problem child. There must be a way.

This is using the CEMF to add to the EMF. It should be able to be used in a fixed speed motor generator too. Like a Muller.


Cheers.
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  #92  
Old 06-15-2011, 06:33 PM
Farmhand Farmhand is offline
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OK I've made some progress,I decided to go to a newer circuit the same and see what it could do. It is running at 20 Khz with a 13 us pulse width and consuming 220 Ma at 12.6 volts. I get a reading of 30 Ma powering the LED at the receiver.

Here is the circuit
http://wv0v9q.bay.livefilestore.com/...009.JPG?psid=1

Here is the pulses for the mosfet gate, 10v per div.
http://wv0v9q.bay.livefilestore.com/...001.JPG?psid=1

Here is the tank cap charge waveform. I had to set the scope to 100v per division to fit it on the screen.
http://wv0v9q.bay.livefilestore.com/...005.JPG?psid=1

This is the charging inductor waveform, 10v per div.
http://wv0v9q.bay.livefilestore.com/...006.JPG?psid=1

This is at the recovery diode which is not in use. 100v per div.
http://wv0v9q.bay.livefilestore.com/...007.JPG?psid=1

And this is a small fluro lit up and levitating at 45 degree's on the top of the transmitter.
http://wv0v9q.bay.livefilestore.com/...008.JPG?psid=1

Must be Antigravity? Nah it's just stuck in a hole.

Cheers
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  #93  
Old 06-15-2011, 07:01 PM
7imix 7imix is offline
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Great work, farmhand!
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  #94  
Old 06-16-2011, 12:01 AM
cody cody is offline
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Ill have to do some testing to confirm what is going on in your capacitor, as im not positive why your voltage is so high. Your dual res link is correct but it is referring to a series tank circuit. Series tanks are fed from AC signals though, look at thier circuits, they are push pull, basicly AC square wave. Thats what i was talking about earlier about getting a higher voltage on the primary by getting it in tune. For whatever reason the solid state tesla coilers thought it was some great idea to actually tune the primary, something tesla was doing a long time ago . You can feed parallel tanks with pulsed DC but they dont have the voltage multiplication they have current multiplication.

Have you tried separating you coils any further yet? Find an old extension cord or something and see if it will go 50 or 100 feet, it might surprise you.
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  #95  
Old 06-16-2011, 01:51 AM
Farmhand Farmhand is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cody View Post
Ill have to do some testing to confirm what is going on in your capacitor, as im not positive why your voltage is so high. Your dual res link is correct but it is referring to a series tank circuit. Series tanks are fed from AC signals though, look at thier circuits, they are push pull, basicly AC square wave. Thats what i was talking about earlier about getting a higher voltage on the primary by getting it in tune. For whatever reason the solid state tesla coilers thought it was some great idea to actually tune the primary, something tesla was doing a long time ago . You can feed parallel tanks with pulsed DC but they dont have the voltage multiplication they have current multiplication.

Have you tried separating you coils any further yet? Find an old extension cord or something and see if it will go 50 or 100 feet, it might surprise you.
Yes I hope you can explain it because I am at a loss. I thought it would be current multiplying too. I worked out that the diode I have on the board does not serve the function of a de-Q-ing diode because the energy transfers back to the 470uf cap on the board, So I added another one at the inductor input without the de-Q-ing diode the input is much less but the effectiveness is also less (so thanks for that ). I still have a lot of things to try one being to increase the capacitance of the topload by adding a aluminium tube attached to the top disc but hanging inside the PVC. Just to see what happens.

I also want to try some longer Coil"B's", but I will have to set up a winding apparatus, I think I damaged the joint in my left thumb winding the others by hand.

What I did notice with the tank cap and the recovery waveform is that the waveform is centered on the screen and i have to raise the position to get the bottom to line up with the centre line.

Do you have an estimate of the cap size I should be able to fill to double the supply with a single bang ? I notice as I adjust the PW the cap voltage changes dramatically. If I reduce the PW the voltage can get quite high at the cap but the setup will only just make a CFL glow with less than 120Ma and there are point's in the tuning where the transfer to the receiver drops dramatically and the LED go's out. The LED is brightest with the narrowest PW I can get, 13us with this 0.01uf timing cap, which is promising.

My Bob Boyce transformer will output 40 volts from the secondary and I am using it single phase (three primaries at once) with a 2us PW 2us dead time producing a varible pulse number - pulse train then a pause, here is the waveform.

At the recovery diode, there are about 18 pulses in the group and it is adjustable down to a few and by increasing the frequency the screen can be filled.
http://public.bay.livefilestore.com/...001.JPG?psid=1

At the secondary.
http://public.bay.livefilestore.com/...007.JPG?psid=1

So i am wondering if I can use the control circuit to drive the transmitter I can close the pulse train on itself with frequency increase.

This is the gating oscilator I designed, it can have multiple CD4047's and drive multiple fets.
http://public.bay.livefilestore.com/...tor.jpg?psid=1

I'll gather some wire and try a distance test. I think the effect should be reduced in the bunkhouse here because it is all metal exterior if I go outside it should be better. I'll try it with a ground wire outside then I'll try it with a ground stake, I have earth stakes around here for electric fence's there are two about 40 meters apart. But I will have to secure the billy goat first.

Anther thing I notice is that I can get voltge reading from all the open ended coils around it and on the bench If I add a FWBR to the coils and measure the DC.

I would also like to construct a pair of smaller coils to see if they will receive from the big one at all, better than just a coil lying on the bench.

I'll start with the centre tube mod.

Cheers
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Last edited by Farmhand; 06-16-2011 at 01:55 AM.
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  #96  
Old 06-16-2011, 05:56 AM
Farmhand Farmhand is offline
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Thanks for the compliment 7imix, it's fun though, I wish I had more resources.

This cap charge waveform is interesting. I think it could be the Magnetic collapse from the primary itself rebounding in the resonant circuit while the fet is off.

The field in the primary collapses and go's back and forth 1 time then ends up back in the cap just as the magnetic field of the charging inductor discharges into the cap and so the cap is charged an extra bit. Maybe
http://wv0v9q.bay.livefilestore.com/...005.JPG?psid=1

Anyway I made some tube's to add to the toroids.
http://wv0v9q.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pdAjoNoyGR6f5G8wTRiuJKb2hfd3fIA88n2ZQJ4AQ2Z-0o4CUhp-LzOZFdheQH3aY9KDmhS5RkIcZt-HRgPStzCwQ2kot__8c/Tube's%20002.JPG?psid=1

This is how I got the holes for the rivets right when I attached them. Also you can see by my hand how much oxidisation came off them when I sanded them clean.
http://wv0v9q.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pNk56priXgcOeUOlwh_K-1VKV8J8RETqADibAD7M0XSWBJQn5gR8yFb-nBzTiED2wXkoKsNm2LNtkdoimX_O16np_f_KVUC82/Tube's%20001.JPG?psid=1

They seem to be an improvement.

I will have to test tomorrow morning when the chickens are still caged. They will surely destroy this frail device.

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  #97  
Old 06-16-2011, 06:42 AM
Farmhand Farmhand is offline
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OK so now I think I've found how to get better effect again by connecting the negative of the Primary/Tank cap to the positive of the battery instead of the negative, doing that lowers current draw from 125 Ma to 105 Ma with no observable reduction in light/output.

Here are the new waveforms which now fit on the screen.

Cap charge 10 v pd
http://v4j0ja.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p_It3f2U5cPNdpNBkBsfz_swVtvpW9Y1xX4bMhKgrBWGTfJe kLNV4IXOLP1vocFgejOR0dICPNpHyiEKT9xJzCllJfcVbvEvO/MT%20Wave's%20005.JPG?psid=1

Cap charge 100v pd
http://v4j0ja.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pNMkkOdeAP-9BxzL81Y8LU0vVIE2BOot4L8VTHg2IioQenV2twnreymh58sTG oXpCtZe7c5JPWOwk3F9RD8GeZx3yhEWEBpwB/MT%20Wave's%20004.JPG?psid=1

The charging inductor waveform then becomes this, which is downright pretty.
http://v4j0ja.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p8gPIdUfzH9sFLdA3o5Ofew2CC-NJaZl0mfgEld4hUQOp_Nf3mL5dQXDuURnu0vXZASm55pN-vbVpfSLzCF3CRa8rKEQvXeyK/MT%20Wave's%20006.JPG?psid=1

And this is the recovery waveform still not in use.
http://public.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pS1ua41_5gZfe4GN1WSQCXrrznkTRNRGxKNda0DUuXgk8t_0 LFl1JS6ia4SL9YM4nrKSGcldkpFh9OrzdprOPsw/MT%20Wave's%20008.JPG?psid=1

Not sure what to make of it all yet.

Cheers

P.S. I think I can sneak the primary circuit into resonance now with no ill affect, that should at least allow me operation at the maximum input voltage and least current.
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  #98  
Old 06-16-2011, 08:05 AM
Farmhand Farmhand is offline
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This is what happens when I increase the PW a bit.
http://v4j0ja.bay.livefilestore.com/...004.JPG?psid=1

The cap get's a large leading edge.
And this is the hanging probe 350mm from the toroid.
http://v4j0ja.bay.livefilestore.com/...005.JPG?psid=1

Then if I increase the frequency a bit this is the hanging probe's form.
http://v4j0ja.bay.livefilestore.com/...009.JPG?psid=1

Then if I go a bit more of either this happens.
http://v4j0ja.bay.livefilestore.com/...006.JPG?psid=1

The protection neon fire's, indicating over 76 volts at the mosfet drain.
http://v4j0ja.bay.livefilestore.com/...010.JPG?psid=1

Then if I back it all off it looks like this on the hanging probe.
http://v4j0ja.bay.livefilestore.com/...011.JPG?psid=1

So that's telling me I need an IRF720 Mosfet or twenty. To have some real fun.

The inductor the cap and the Mosfet all get hot. Wow !

Cheers
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  #99  
Old 06-16-2011, 12:19 PM
cody cody is offline
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What is the mosfet you are using now?
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  #100  
Old 06-16-2011, 03:29 PM
Farmhand Farmhand is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cody View Post
What is the mosfet you are using now?
I'm using an IRF540 now, I just ordered some IRF740's and IRF840's, just in case.

I think i've done it. I changed out the oscillator timing capacitor from 0.01uf to 0.0026 uf, so now I can get from about 1us to 14 us pulse width and over 150Khz at minimum pulse width.

I can join up the wave and hey presto ! This is a hanging probe 300mm or 12inch's from the toroid.
http://v4j0ja.bay.livefilestore.com/...008.JPG?psid=1

I can do this with the minumum PW and up untill the voltage of the wave become's too much for the Mosfet. It can happen with 130 Ma and less. Or more.

By reducing the PW so much I have managed to get the Primary/Tank cap voltage level under control and can raise the cap voltage and therefore the output voltage at the receiver by increasing the pulse width to the next node where the wave is bigger than the last node. When adjusting the PW the output "drops out" then comes back up when the next node is reached with incresed voltage, just gotta find the right one.

Here is the tank cap waveform with a very narrow Pulse.
http://v4j0ja.bay.livefilestore.com/...009.JPG?psid=1

The light on the transmitter is brighter now when i put it there.
http://v4j0ja.bay.livefilestore.com/...005.JPG?psid=1

Looks good .
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  #101  
Old 06-17-2011, 05:00 AM
Farmhand Farmhand is offline
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Hi Cody, This is one of the waveforms I get with this little scope by hanging the probe about 10 -12 inch's from the receiver toroid. THe transmitter one is similar but bigger and the spiky bit's are inverted to the receiver waveform.

The numbers don't mean much on the screen because of how it isn't connected.
http://v4j0ja.bay.livefilestore.com/...009.JPG?psid=1

I also noticed that by changing the time scale on the little scope I get to see a few different waveforms and different frequencies it can pick up most of the different wacveforms on the circuit.

And I also noticed that when tuned like this the inductor waveform go's to almost a flat line and instead of being hot it is cool to touch, the scope tells me there is just a smooth 12 volts DC flowing through the inductor.

Using only 160 to 220 Ma at 12.8 volts the transmitter can light a two foot 18 watt fluro in my hand quite brightly while the receiver lights 1 x 5mm white led with 47 ohm resistor and 4 x 3mm coloured ones with a 10 ohm resistor.

I think I have managed to get the primary circuit into resonance at I think 268.5 Khz and the secondary went into resonance with it kinda. I am getting all kinds of frequency readings but the gate says 268 Khz and the tank cap very similar.

Where should i measure it ? At the mosfet gate I guess.

I havn't done a transmission test over any distance yet because I want to be able to video it if it works and I wanted to get it working best as I can before i try.

Cheers
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  #102  
Old 06-17-2011, 01:41 PM
Farmhand Farmhand is offline
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OK here's the circuit I am using. And I think the frequency I posted above is wrong I think it is actually half the 268 Khz I posted so more like 133 Khz.
http://v4j0ja.bay.livefilestore.com/...uit.jpg?psid=1

And I made a couple of 8 inch toroids from 2 inch flexable (slotted) drainage pipe.
http://v4j0ja.bay.livefilestore.com/...002.JPG?psid=1

I just ordered 320 meters of 0.5mm wire for another Coil not sure yet how I will make it yet.

Cheers
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  #103  
Old 06-18-2011, 12:21 PM
Farmhand Farmhand is offline
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Hi all, I can now light a CFL from the receiver but only partly so far it does come on by itself though when connected.

This is using less than 200 Ma input to the transmitter to get this happening at the receiver about 4.5 meters away.
http://public.bay.livefilestore.com/...001.JPG?psid=1

The black wire on the ground is the ground wire, it is the only wire connected to the receiver.
http://v4j0ja.bay.livefilestore.com/...006.JPG?psid=1

I was messing about with different ways of using the output from the receiver when I blew my last 5mm white LED with a small neon triggered SCR cap discharger, so I decided I should discharge the cap through a Tesla coil primary (of course) to see if I could amplify the 70 volts charging the cap. And I seem to have done that.

This surprised me a little bit I must say.

So the next thing is to refine this receiver circuit to maximise the lighting of the CFL. Then I will have acheived something if I can do it at a greater distance. Outside I have insulated electric fence wire's I can de-energise and use for the ground wire or I can try the ground stakes. But considering I am only using about 200 Ma I think a actual ground connection may not work, more power would be needed for that I think, but who knows maybe not.

I'll make a sketch of the arrangement shortly.

Cheers

OK here is the receiver circuit I used, I will try to improve it when I've thought about it a bit.
http://public.bay.livefilestore.com/...003.JPG?psid=1
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  #104  
Old 06-18-2011, 03:16 PM
Farmhand Farmhand is offline
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I couldn't resist these pics are the best lighting I've had so far. It's a 550mm tube 18 watts.

http://v4j0ja.bay.livefilestore.com/...002.JPG?psid=1

http://v4j0ja.bay.livefilestore.com/...005.JPG?psid=1

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  #105  
Old 06-19-2011, 06:11 AM
7imix 7imix is offline
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Nikola Tesla on his work with ... - Google Books

I found out that google books lets one preview the first 60 pages or so of "tesla on his work with alternating currents". If one clicks the "contents" button and clicks the figure on page 10, it shows various very interesting arraggements. I finally figured out that the coil with the funny squiggly line is a variable inductor.

Variable inductors and capacitors are going to be key for tuning. Unfortunately there are not good off the shelf parts available of the specs required.

Thanks for the idea of using a neon triggered scr to fire the cap into a tesla coil. I'm going to try that. I only wish there were an easy way to quench the discharge faster than the default scr behavior which waits for current to drop to zero. I have thought about using another free running oscillator circuit to turn on and off some heavy duty mosfets or even relays.
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  #106  
Old 06-19-2011, 06:45 AM
Farmhand Farmhand is offline
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Thanks 7, i'll check that out. Did you see above I got this waveform when I joined up the wave ?
http://v4j0ja.bay.livefilestore.com/...008.JPG?psid=1

I just got an LED to light at 10 meters with only a ground wire to the normal ground connection and outdoors amongst the trees. There is a lot of stuff to interfere with it and in the sunlight I couldn't get close enough to the light to film it well, as I got really close I think I became the dominant capacitance. I am convinced that to transfer using a ground connection with low power low frequency should also be used. I read somewhere that between 6 Hz and 20 Khz is best.

Tesla says that to get the most power from the transmitter and best transfer resonance is needed, but it will work without being in resonance. The principal of the transfer itself does not rely on resonance to actually work it is just much better.

I have a variable capacitor.
With this particular setup I think this is as close to resonance as I will get, when I join the wave the amplitude became a lot more and the wave form is Phase locked and i believe in resonance of some kind.

High frequency through the ground is not as good as low frequency apparently. I see this as true because when I first built it and was using it at only 2.5 Khz an actual ground connection worked but as I kept increasing the frequency the ground became less usefull. It will not be possible to build a small device to be in resonance at only 2o Khz or below so any actual ground/air transfers will have to be done out of resonance but at maximum possible power at lowest possible frequency, lower frequency will also alleviate some EM radiation that is wasting power.

Most of the exciter one wire transmission video's I see are only showing the HV live wire lighting by AV plug or by EM radiation, and done indoors amonst electrical equipment, which is not really very telling. I think I used induction to transfer the energy.

I issue a challenge to anybody to show one ground wire Energy transfer, outdoors over ten meters using less than 4 watts of input power to the transmitter.

I'll upload the video soon. The LED light is dull but it is on. Next is to try to use the ground and then to light a CFL at ten meters. It'll take a while to get two good earth stakes in where i want them.

Cheers
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  #107  
Old 06-19-2011, 07:36 AM
7imix 7imix is offline
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Yes, that waveform looks nice and coherent.

I noticed later that you had a variable cap in the circuit. You might want to consider putting an identical cap on the receiving side.

Good point about the amount of power being transmitted depending on how well tuned the devices are. In fact tesla intentionally detuned some circuits to change the amount of output, for example for a light dimmer. A dial would detune the receiver and thus dim the light.

You are right about lower frequencies. This is why tesla, while initially talking about "high frequency" in his lectures in 1890-92, later started using lower frequencies. When radio was being developed and others went for higher and higher frequencies, tesla started using lower frequencies.

I accept your challenge
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  #108  
Old 06-19-2011, 07:39 AM
7imix 7imix is offline
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One other thing, it would be possible to have a transmitter tuned to 2.5khz but have the receiver tuned to a much higher harmonic. Multiply 2.5 by 2, 4, 8, 16, 32 or whatever.
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Old 06-19-2011, 08:12 AM
Farmhand Farmhand is offline
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One other thing, it would be possible to have a transmitter tuned to 2.5khz but have the receiver tuned to a much higher harmonic. Multiply 2.5 by 2, 4, 8, 16, 32 or whatever.
Very good. I know you're up to the task. It is a fun thing to play with. And very easy to build. I will be gratefull of any advancements you can make to improve on things.

If my new deep ground stake's dont work well with this frequency I will try to go down untill I get ground conduction or whatever it would be called.

I think with high frequency the individual impulses are too frail and are decayed into EM radiation too easily. I probably should test it without the foil around the mast on the transmitter then the receiver as well.

I only get a very small amount of radiation from the receiver because the built potential is less, a neon will only light if touched around the perifery of the toroid cross section. But the transmitter lights em up all the way from the bottom of coil "B". If I touch a neon to the transmitter it burns bright orange and burns my fingers too .

Cheers
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Old 06-19-2011, 10:48 AM
Farmhand Farmhand is offline
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OK here is a video of a very sad LED lighting dimly from 10 meters. Bear in mind the low power bright sunlight and still ironing out details.

YouTube - ‪AlternateFarmhand1's Channel‬‏

It did work though to a degree but it was very difficult to see just how bright the LED was. Some very smooth toroids might help and also remove the foil on the stem.

So i need to mess about with some things and try again.

In the meantime while i'm thinking about it I am planning to build another small coil using a garden light lens and stand upside down as a coil former. Which should also be easy to duplicate if I want a second one.

It should look like this. Coil "C" is cut in cross section.
http://v4j0ja.bay.livefilestore.com/...001.JPG?psid=1

Here it is next to the one of the other one's as a size comparison.
http://v4j0ja.bay.livefilestore.com/...003.JPG?psid=1

Not sure if I should use 0.5mm wire for the cone shaped part and 0.2mm for the cylinder part or 0.5mm for both or 0.2mm for both.

The primary I will work out later but I want it to be a cone also but inverted, that should make it like it is only one or two windings but I'll make it 6 turns and tap 3 turns. Should I tap the top turns or the bottom turns ?[Edit] silly me I would need to tap the top turns of course.

It looks like a big cone funneling into the bottom of a smaller cone's base, it's pretty easy to visualise the potential being driven inwards and down then inwards some more and up like a focused jet of pressure.

It should work ok.

Cheers
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Last edited by Farmhand; 06-19-2011 at 01:57 PM.
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  #111  
Old 06-19-2011, 11:49 AM
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MonsieurM MonsieurM is offline
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Farmhand, It is for sure a great pleasure seeing your project evolve the way it does. I see that Nature is your inspiration in your latest post, way to go

note: nature works also in ratio when it comes to building a structure, just thought it might help you in deciding the number of turns, thickness, space, etc...

if you look at a tree and measure the thickness of its trunk and the thickness of its branches/roots, you will find a recurring ratio...

just to remind you that we are under the influence of

Quote:
Quote:
Fundamental Frequencies of the Earth and the Sun

We will now attempt to find the correlative basis for a number of significant octave relationships based on the terrestrial Schumann Resonance and the solar hydrogen-alpha fundamental frequency....
.... The Schumann Resonance consists of a “chord” of subaudible infrasound extreme low frequencies of the Earth itself resonating with the uppermost atmosphere. Its fundamental tone or tonic note
oscillates slightly around the frequency of 7.8 Hertz (cycles per second). It also has overtones that oscillate around the frequencies of 14, 21, 26, 33, 39, and 45 cycles per second.

.....The octaves of 7.8 Hertz are 15.6, 31.2, 62.4, 124.8, 249.6, 499.2, 998.4, 1996.8, 3993.6, and so on up through auditory sound and then into the electromagnetic spectrum....
.... The frequency of 14 has octaves of 28, 56, 112, 224, 448, 896, 1792, 3584, 7168
.... The sixth or highest generally reported Schumann overtone is 45 Hertz which has the octaves of 90, 180, 360, 720, 1440, 2880, 5760, 11520, 23040, and so forth.






The sacred rule of Nature is No Waste, best way to go about it is by respecting ratios (ie: fractal)

you should probably look into Vortex based Mathematics:

YouTube - ‪Marko Rodin Vortex Mathematics Introduction‬‏

Cheers

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Last edited by MonsieurM; 06-19-2011 at 01:05 PM.
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  #112  
Old 06-19-2011, 09:44 PM
cody cody is offline
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OK here is a video of a very sad LED lighting dimly from 10 meters. Bear in mind the low power bright sunlight and still ironing out details.

YouTube - ‪AlternateFarmhand1's Channel‬‏
Very Good! Now that you have some distance between the coils you can see how well they are really doing. When you have them close together you get capacitive and inductive couplings, not the true single wire transmission. You have noticed that adding capacitance is making it brighter, good! It is not necessarily that more capacitance is better, but in that particular arrangement it needs more capacitance or inductance to bring it in tune. I had mentioned that previously that the distance between the coils will affect the tuning.

Your wave off the secondary looked like you are on a harmonic, so you setup can still get better once you hit the fundamental frequency.

Quote:
I just got an LED to light at 10 meters with only a ground wire to the normal ground connection and outdoors amongst the trees. There is a lot of stuff to interfere with it and in the sunlight I couldn't get close enough to the light to film it well, as I got really close I think I became the dominant capacitance. I am convinced that to transfer using a ground connection with low power low frequency should also be used. I read somewhere that between 6 Hz and 20 Khz is best.

Tesla says that to get the most power from the transmitter and best transfer resonance is needed, but it will work without being in resonance. The principal of the transfer itself does not rely on resonance to actually work it is just much better.
I wouldnt worry so much about the trees. Just think of the wire between them as the conductor and study the skin effect regarding to high frequency on conductors and you will understand why lower frequency is better.
Skin effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
As far as the resonance part, I do not doubt that something will come through if your not in tune, but it will be so small that you may not even be able to measure it. Resonance the is key, without it no long distances will be achieved.

Quote:
I issue a challenge to anybody to show one ground wire Energy transfer, outdoors over ten meters using less than 4 watts of input power to the transmitter.
Challenge accepted Here is a large super bright LED on the receiver at about 80 meters or 240 feet. (i ran out of extension cord or i would have went further). The LED is nice and bright even on the sunny day in the shade. The transmitter is in the basement of the house in the background running off my function generator so you know its a very low power driver.



These little coils will go some distance if you get the tuning right and are aware of ground resistance. Put a voltmeter across your LED as you make tuning changes, after each adjustment step away from the receiver so your body capacitance is not interfering. For your receiver, instead of touching it with your hand, try raising or lowering it from the earth, height changes capacitance. Or you could add a larger toroid. You could also make a small variable inductor at the base of the secondary like i did for fine tuning. Here.



When you get the coils far apart think about the conductor you are using between the coils. The longer it is, the more resistance and losses from skin effect you will have to overcome. Take your same extension cord you are using to connect them and dont just use one of the wires but use all three in the cord in parallel and see if its any better on the receiver. You should find it works better because you have made a better conductor for high frequency.

Now if you want to remove that wire and use just the earth as a wire, think about what it would take to get it to work. Try sticking two grounding rods in the earth a few feet from eachother and use your meter to measure the resistance between them and think about what conditions would be needed to get that to work as a conductor.

EDIT: Also as you tune your receiver, dont forget to tune the coupling between the primary and secondary.
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Last edited by cody; 06-19-2011 at 09:52 PM.
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  #113  
Old 06-20-2011, 01:14 AM
Farmhand Farmhand is offline
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Hi Cody, Awesome stuff, I haven't seen anyone show transfer like that. . Very impressive.

Thanks for all the tips too. What kind of frequency does your coil operate best at ?

I think I should rewind or wind some different primaries with less turns to see the difference. I should be able to use less then ten with the circuit I have. I'll wind new one's incase these are better.

But first I'll try to tune it a bit while outside. I did realise when I got everything back inside that I should have tried to tune it a bit while outside.

I had to steal an LED from a garden light.

If I just stick the two probe's in the ground about 1 meter apart there is 15 Kohm resistance wow. And Between the two stakes in which are only just over a meter apart it is out of range, they have been there a while. It's funny how the electric fence works so well.

Cheers

I can reduce the oscillator timing cap some more yet to 0.001uf which should still allow me to get the same tuning I have now but also higher frequency range will be possible. I'll have a few changes to make after the next test.
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  #114  
Old 06-20-2011, 02:42 AM
Farmhand Farmhand is offline
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Hey Cody, or anyone, I need some advice on a function generator,

What frequency range should i aim for and what feature's are preferable, I don't want to buy one and then find out later it is missing a function or feature I want or need that other function generators have.

I like this one, if I sell some goats I can get it.
Function Signal Wave Generator 0.1Hz - 5 MHz AUS | eBay

Similar one but 3 Mhz max with more feature's but it will me cost another goat.
Function Generator 0.1Hz - 3MHz with AM/FM & VCF input | eBay

There are some of these really cheap one's too but I'm always dubious about going too cheap. If they work OK others might be inclined to use them more. And I don't have to sell any goats to get this one.
AD9851 DDS Function Signal Generator Source Wave Module | eBay

So I take it these things can trigger a Mosfet or similar through a TTL Driver or Directly with the CMOS output ? Then when I am happy with the required signal I can just make a board with a PIC8 to use permanantly i suppose.

Thanks again.
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Old 06-20-2011, 02:47 AM
cody cody is offline
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That little setup is resonant at 690 KHz. My secondary is not big but does have about 1000 turns on it. Its about 11 inches by 2 inches 30ga wire. I like making them like that to get a high inductance to keep the resonant frequency low. You could add a large capacitance toroid to lower your resonant frequency but i suspect going that route will diminish the effectiveness, so i prefer using inductance to lower the frequency. But Ill have to do some more tests to confirm if too much capacitance is a bad thing. It should lower the peak voltage on the transmitter, making it harder to over come the resistances of long distance transmission. It may not matter to much when using nice copper conductors between the coils though.

Im sure if you change your primary to 10 turns it will still work. But I think the biggest improvement you could make at this point is being able to hit the resonant frequency of your setup. Weather thats changing your circuit or making new secondaries with a much lower resonant frequency to work with your circuit, there are lots of options and Im sure with the persistence you have you will get there soon. Once you get there then its just a matter of figuring out all the tuning on the receiver which I pretty well outlined in the above post and im sure you will catch on quick once you start playing with it.

Its nice having someone to play with, not too many folks messing with this stuff. Thanks
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  #116  
Old 06-20-2011, 03:14 AM
cody cody is offline
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Quote:
Hey Cody, or anyone, I need some advice on a function generator,

What frequency range should i aim for and what feature's are preferable, I don't want to buy one and then find out later it is missing a function or feature I want or need that other function generators have.

I like this one, if I sell some goats I can get it.
Function Signal Wave Generator 0.1Hz - 5 MHz AUS | eBay

Similar one but 3 Mhz max with more feature's but it will me cost another goat.
Function Generator 0.1Hz - 3MHz with AM/FM & VCF input | eBay

There are some of these really cheap one's too but I'm always dubious about going too cheap. If they work OK others might be inclined to use them more. And I don't have to sell any goats to get this one.
AD9851 DDS Function Signal Generator Source Wave Module | eBay

So I take it these things can trigger a Mosfet or similar through a TTL Driver or Directly with the CMOS output ? Then when I am happy with the required signal I can just make a board with a PIC8 to use permanantly i suppose.

Thanks again.
Personally, its been my most valuable tool for this work. Also makes it very easy to learn about tuning. And yes you can use it to drive other high power setups if you want.

I sprung for a nice HP a year or two ago and love it. I had a much cheaper older Wavetek before that but it kept giving me problems. If i were to buy a cheap one over again i think i would have preferred a new off brand model than the old wavetek.

Some features i would suggest would be to get one with sine, square and maybe pulse too if available. Those are the main ones you would probably use. Also having a digital frequency display on the machine is very nice so you can easily see what frequency you are at. Something that can put out up to 10 volts is fine. A range of 2 MHz is fine for this but you may want a higher range for other projects that come down the road. One that is a DDS model is preferred but not necessary. Really anything else would just be a luxury that you probably wont use for this. As with anything you usually get what you pay for. Look up reviews for the models you are looking at to see if there are any issues.
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Old 06-20-2011, 05:08 AM
Farmhand Farmhand is offline
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OK I think I'll go with the first one I linked that I liked the look of, this Guy DaveW has one with a different badge but the same unit, and he says it is OK, he has it opened and checked it out, sounds like he knows what he's talking about. Photo's of it open and his appraisal are in the link below reply # 6 .

MFG-3005 Function Generator???

Thanks to DaveW

I just did a quick test outide again and you were right as soon as I retuned it the LED was much brighter, I removed the foil and there was not much difference the tube's inside are still radiating Energy but they are fairly smooth so I'll keep them in there untill I get the FG.

I have an enormous mess in my workspace I should try to clear up I'm having trouble finding things. Could take days to organise. I like to spread stuff around so I can see it and find it but with electronics there are so many different small parts.

And my eye's aren't the best the other day I inserted a 12v regulator in a board by mistake instead of a Mosfet and wondered why I couldn't pulse a coil with it haha. Had me stumped for a bit. It is still ok too.
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Old 06-20-2011, 05:40 AM
7imix 7imix is offline
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I would say the main thing I would look for is the rise and fall time of the rectangle wave generator. That one is less than 100ns which is good. Also I would want to know what the minimum duty cycle it is capable of producing is. In the specs, the only thing that seems related to this is "symmetry range" spec. If that means it can only do a 10% duty cycle at the minimum, then that's not very good.

Farmhand, I am going to do one of my uc3525 builds and send it to you. It has been very resilient in my testing. I even ran it off 24 volts and it did a great job. I can reliably get the duty cycle down to 2%, and I can get it even lower but sometimes it drops pulses. At 12 volts with one of my new toroids and a microwave diode I can fill a capacitor to 300 volts with about 50 milliamps.

From there the cap, with an appropriate sidac, could then break over and through the primary. Changing the input frequency or duty cycle being driven through the toroid changes the rate at which the cap charges and thus the rate the sidac discharges into the primary.

If you can afford it the signal generator has a much wider range of abilities And is much more flexible so it is definitely a great thing to buy as well.
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  #119  
Old 06-20-2011, 05:45 AM
Farmhand Farmhand is offline
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Hey Cody I reckon you're setup would fully light a CFL with another Tesla type coil working from the output of you're receiver it may even work if the coil is connected directly to the receiver output coil, or maybe through a pair of small series caps.

That's why I want the other small coil. But maybe a horazontal one with the primary near the center would be best. Like how I used the other one in the post above but smaller and horazontal, I did notice that that coil lit the CFL partially from the top wire alone almost the same as when I connected the bottom one. That may have only been because of how I connected it. A very much smaller phisical size coil should work even better.

Because the most desireable effect in my opinion would be to have a CFL or a tube mounted on top of the small auxilliary coil lit by ony one wire.

I wonder if an actual CFL mini transformer would work !

Oh and you're variable inductor on the secondary is that on both ?

Ta
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Old 06-20-2011, 06:06 AM
Farmhand Farmhand is offline
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Originally Posted by 7imix View Post
I would say the main thing I would look for is the rise and fall time of the rectangle wave generator. That one is less than 100ns which is good. Also I would want to know what the minimum duty cycle it is capable of producing is. In the specs, the only thing that seems related to this is "symmetry range" spec. If that means it can only do a 10% duty cycle at the minimum, then that's not very good.

Farmhand, I am going to do one of my uc3525 builds and send it to you. It has been very resilient in my testing. I even ran it off 24 volts and it did a great job. I can reliably get the duty cycle down to 2%, and I can get it even lower but sometimes it drops pulses. At 12 volts with one of my new toroids and a microwave diode I can fill a capacitor to 300 volts with about 50 milliamps.

From there the cap, with an appropriate sidac, could then break over and through the primary. Changing the input frequency or duty cycle being driven through the toroid changes the rate at which the cap charges and thus the rate the sidac discharges into the primary.

If you can afford it the signal generator has a much wider range of abilities And is much more flexible so it is definitely a great thing to buy as well.
OK thanks I meant to ask you for a circuit, because I knew you had one like i need for that chip and I have them now.

Sounds good but that digikey place wants $30.00 to ship to Australia. The robbers. I'll look around some more.
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