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  #1  
Old 04-20-2011, 08:43 PM
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Armagdn03 Armagdn03 is offline
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Interesting concept for a water purification system

I have had an idea for a water purification system for a while now which can be made from simple materials by any person, that does not use consumable materials like carbon for the filtering process.

I am looking for from anybody interested also in this, as I think there are a ton of creative design concepts to be considered with wide implications. This will basically combine a magnet, the kelvin water drop experiment concept, and a naturally induced water vortex.

So here we go (example uses salt water),

Imagine salt water. In water, salt dissolved is in the form of the ions Na+ (sodium positive) and Cl- (Chlorine negative).

Now this salt water is in a round glass cup, with foil on the outside and an insulated electrode straight down its center. If we apply a voltage to the electrode in the center and the foil on the cup, we create a potential gradient across the salt water from the cups circumference towards the center. If the center electrode is +, then all of the Cl- ions will be attracted to it. The cup (with foil on outside) being negative will attract all of the Na+ ions.

Now imagine perpendicular to this electric field (which goes from center out) is a magnetic field. So you could imagine a ring magnet like found in a loud speaker that the cup is resting on.

The charged particles (ions) will experience a force per the right hand rule when they are moved.

Normally, the ions are all scrambled together, meaning no real net charge, and no macroscopic magnetic field interaction takes place, BUT, we have just separated the positive and negative ions.

Now if we give our salt water in the cup a spin, Some ions will be pulled further towards the periphery, and others will be pulled even tighter towards the center. This is the right hand rule showing us that a particle, with charge, moving in an magnetic field will experience a force at 90 degrees to this. This is Lorenz force. This is how Magnetrons work etc.

The advantages now are that we can separate or stratify ions to either the periphery or the center in a very strong way, using static electric field, and static magnetic field both of which really require no real large power for their upkeep. Magnets hold a static B field for years and years, and we can use the kelvin water drop experiment concept to create the needed potential gradient.

The easiest way to create the spin needed to see this strong stratification of the water, is to let the water spin itself! Think water vortex. There are tons of examples out there, and the work of Victor Schauberger has already shown many ways to use a vortex for purification which are right along these lines.

So now you have a vortex with its central axis perpendicular to a magnetic field. You have a potential gradient from the circumference to the center (radial) and you have a separation of ions within the moving mass of water.

As the water drops, you can take advantage of the Kelving water drop experiment concept.

Electricity from water - Kelvin water drop generator - Naked Scientists Kitchen Science 2009

YouTube - Kelvin's water droplet battery problem figured out !!


So now we have the water motion (vortex) and the voltage potential provided by gravity, and the B field provided by permanent magnets!
No HV electronics generators needed!

Now there are many ways to take advantage of this stratification process through the interaction of water in a properly oriented B field and Potential gradient for purification.

I have not yet built this and am looking for help in design ideas. Feel free to jump in.
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Old 04-21-2011, 06:43 AM
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sucahyo sucahyo is offline
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My opinion:
- I think ionization require current. No one succeed doing ionizing with voltage only (Meyer). So insulated electrode may not ionize at all. However using even platinum plated electrode would not has long life with sea water.
- ionization of flowing water would be higher rate but will also leave the water not touching the electrode unaffected
- magnet may not be strong enough to separate ion
- there are heavy metal or other toxic material in the sea water because of pollution
- if the Cl- is forced to become Chlorine gas, the water will become less acid.
- there is effort of using only vortex to make the water less salty, see copy copieren video.
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Old 04-21-2011, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sucahyo View Post
My opinion:
- I think ionization require current. No one succeed doing ionizing with voltage only (Meyer). So insulated electrode may not ionize at all. However using even platinum plated electrode would not has long life with sea water.
- ionization of flowing water would be higher rate but will also leave the water not touching the electrode unaffected
- magnet may not be strong enough to separate ion
- there are heavy metal or other toxic material in the sea water because of pollution
- if the Cl- is forced to become Chlorine gas, the water will become less acid.
- there is effort of using only vortex to make the water less salty, see copy copieren video.
Thanks poking in!

Quote:
- I think ionization require current. No one succeed doing ionizing with voltage only (Meyer). So insulated electrode may not ionize at all. However using even platinum plated electrode would not has long life with sea water.
I think perhaps you might have misread where the ions im my post come from. What you are referring to is self ionization of the water, or ionization caused by current flow through water...In my description the ions are already present, they are the impurities, this is what makes it an electrolytic solution. I used salt water as a description. Mix salt in with water, and walla, you have ions. Dont think Stan Meyer, as this is a different form of ionization.

Quote:
- ionization of flowing water would be higher rate but will also leave the water not touching the electrode unaffected
The insulated electrodes are only to provide an electric field gradient, nothing more, whether there is water in the cup, air, oil etc... the electric field will pass radially through. No electron flow, just field.

Quote:
- magnet may not be strong enough to separate ion
The ions are separated by the electric field, once this happens, they have either a net positive charge towards the center and negative towards circumference, or vice versa. The magnetic field is there because of the way these charged particles act according to the right hand rule in a magnetic field. This is further separation of ions, AND further stimulation of rotational vortex. The magnet strength is more than enough!

Quote:
- there are heavy metal or other toxic material in the sea water because of pollution
Yes I agree, all those dissolved materials are gennerally ions, not electrically neutral particles (and even if they were they can still be separated in this manor) The vortex naturally stratifies according to density therefore even without the magnetic / electric assist, the vortex itself can do much of this. The electric field and magnetic field augment the gravity induced vortex by including a self induced electrical vortex as well.

Quote:
- if the Cl- is forced to become Chlorine gas, the water will become less acid.
Right now what I have first described will do this! in fact many electrically based water purification systems on the market (kongen) sell products which output two forms of water, one good for you one not so good...same phenomenon.

Put the chlorinated water through again, and you will have a separation of neutral particles (water molecules) and the highly negatively charged ions (chlorine).

Quote:
- there is effort of using only vortex to make the water less salty, see copy copieren video.
Yes, I have about 5 books on Victor Schauberger and people who have continued his research. I am combining this fantastic effort and findings (building of the shoulders of giants) with the concept of a magnetron electrical vortex. This is good information! Keep it coming! this will help out alot, I have been taking almost all my vortex design queues from such places.
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Old 04-21-2011, 02:27 PM
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Angry hello

Well well,

Seems this idea has dawned on another before.

Apparatus and method for magneto ... - Google Patent Search

"Apparatus and method for magneto-electrodynamic separation of ions within an electrolytic fluid"

Let me read from part of it....

Quote:
"1) Field of invention
The field of invention is fluid treatment, and more specifically a method and apparatus for purifying an electrolytic fluid, separating the electrolytic fluid into layers having different pH properties and concentrating ions and charged particles within those layers.

Summary

In one aspect of a prefered emboidiment, an apparatus is provided in which an electric field and magnetic field intersect in a flow path of an electrolytic fluid separating positive and negative ions and diverting them away from the flow direction of the electrolytic fluid."

And it goes on from there. I think its safe to say it can be done, no question here. The question lies in actually building it!

I do not want forced water injection like this patent! I want this to be built by the average person pouring rain water through.

So the question is, how exactly should it be designed????

this is what I am working on now.
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Old 04-21-2011, 02:28 PM
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I don know why my last post started with an angry face, but im not angry. Ha ha ha
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Old 04-21-2011, 04:14 PM
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From my initial fooling around with making simple vortexes out of household items (2 and 3 liter pop bottles, funnels for car oil etc, various containers) its pretty obvious that running a wire down the center will disrupt the vortical movement. Im going to have to think on this one...any ideas? I was thinking of either of suspending a rod only partially down but still any touching of the vortex sides seems to disrupt its movement.

For now I am headed to the local hardware store, pick up a few things.
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Old 04-21-2011, 07:10 PM
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here is yet another awesome patent describing the same effect with its own spin on things.

Water purification: ion separation - Google Patent Search

I will borrow a few images and descriptions from this patent as it is worded very well.


NO doubt in my mind this will work, its just in the best possible design.

Some things to consider,

The electric field will cause the separation of ions without initial ion movement

The magnetic field only exerts a force when the ions move

Rotation through vortex or forced will cause rotational movement in the ions, which will cause them to move in a direction perpendicular to both their direction and the B field. So faster movement = greater force exerted on ions per the magnetic field.
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Old 04-21-2011, 09:21 PM
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:thinking:

Oh man, here is a really interesting patent. These three patents together really paint an interesting picture.

Ion separation and removal unit with ... - Google Patent Search

Let me quote this from the following patent.

Quote:
The magnetic field forces the ions, to move laterally to the conduit's ends, to discharge at electrodes in the outside chambers of the spiral conduit by short circuit, inducing a current that can be used. The only energy needed is that required to pump sea water into the spiral unit using permanent magnets with already built in energy. Adding a power source in series with the electric circuit speeds up the de-ionization process which pays for itself in the production of hydrogen and chlorine gases for commercial purposes. No running costs, no environmental problems.
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Old 04-22-2011, 06:02 PM
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This patent was forwarded to me by user wojwrobel

espacenet - Original document

I have only read a bit of it as it is long, but this is another incredible one!

The second and third patent I posted alluded to the power generation aspect of this that I had not originally intended, but now it is very clear.

What I have really enjoyed about these patents is that they are creating technologies working with natrual forces in a unique way (wow working with nature is unique!). This is electricity, physics, chemistry all combined in a beautiful way.


thanks wojwrobel , if you have anything to add, love to hear from you!
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Old 04-22-2011, 07:34 PM
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I really think this is an area people should start spending a larger amount of time investigating. Soon, you will not be able to buy expensive neo magnets, you may not be able to use the internet at all. Alot of the experiments on the "fringe" should probably be concentrated towards workable technologies which allow us to manipulate our world with the items readily available. Desalination and purification of water, and heat are up there.

This technology separates natural fluids, it distills, it creates energy, it it can be a closed cycle.

Quote from the last patent

"One advantage of the arrangement described hereinafter is the closed cycle of energy and materials. All chemicals are fully recovered and the overall mass is constant. Thus there is no environmental impact"
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Old 04-22-2011, 09:33 PM
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This is the ultimate water purification process simplified :
convert water into gas then gas into water
all other substances remain in container with no exception
then add required mineral salts and this is pure water for drinking
in process water can be charged with magnetic field energy also and get healing capabilities.

Of course I'm not talking about generating Brown gas from water.
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Old 04-22-2011, 10:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boguslaw View Post
This is the ultimate water purification process simplified :
convert water into gas then gas into water
all other substances remain in container with no exception
then add required mineral salts and this is pure water for drinking
in process water can be charged with magnetic field energy also and get healing capabilities.

Of course I'm not talking about generating Brown gas from water.
Yes boguyslaw, I agree,

In fact I have wilderness survival training and years of "roughing it". One of the simplest ways to get water to dig bit of a hole, it will fill natrually with ground water, place clear plastic bag over the hole, and an empty cup beneath the bag. If you have it shaped right, the ground water will evaporate into air, condense on the bag, then drip into the cup purified.

What I find interesting about what I am proposing, is that through the hall effect with magnetism, and the coulomb force by potential gradient, we can stratify any ionic solution. THe two products of which are electrically charged.

You can have clear water simply by pouring through a device, no waiting for the sun to evaporate, or fire, etc.

On top of this the hall effect in separating the charged particles can be taken advantage of in collecting metals from sea water. It is not hard to see that each liquid, if given a common electrical connection will discharge, in a fashion very similar to electrolysis, gas will be evolved at one electrode (chlorine in the case of salt water) and sodium will deposit near the other electrode. This can be used not only for purification but for pulling metals out of sea water. Not only that but you route this electrical power through a load.

Sure sucks that china is halting export of precious metals....if only there were another huge abundant source....like the ocean....and if only we had a way to extract it.................
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Old 04-23-2011, 03:19 AM
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Armagdn03,

Thanks for posting this information I am very concerned with what's happening with the disaster in Japan and it's effect on the rest of the world. I know that many substances are used to remove radiation from food and water. Things like Zeolite and Boron for example, but baking soda has been used for radiation remediation (scroll down) ). Or do a search for Baking Soda and radiation in google for tons of info.

I am wondering if maybe a little Sodium Bicarbonate can be used in place of "salt" as the electrolyte for this process.

If so could this be a possible answer to removing radioactive particulate from our drinking water ?


Just an idea to bounce off you, I'm not much of a chemist

Will
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Old 04-23-2011, 04:22 AM
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Excellent question,

actually, heavy ions will be removed the easiest, one of the patents deliniates using such technology for removing heavy radioactive metals. i will elaborate more later
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Old 04-23-2011, 04:44 AM
eastcoastwilly eastcoastwilly is offline
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I would be interested in seeing a conceptualization (hand drawn or whatever) of what you see this apparatus looking like and what construction materials (based on your early research) it could potentially be made from. It would be great to keep poorer countries in mind so that folks with little to no resources could do it as well. There are lots of folks who could contribute plenty on this forum....don't worry about it being too simple...that's a great starting point !!

Thanks for your research and insight !!



Will
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Old 04-23-2011, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eastcoastwilly View Post
I would be interested in seeing a conceptualization (hand drawn or whatever) of what you see this apparatus looking like and what construction materials (based on your early research) it could potentially be made from. It would be great to keep poorer countries in mind so that folks with little to no resources could do it as well. There are lots of folks who could contribute plenty on this forum....don't worry about it being too simple...that's a great starting point !!

Thanks for your research and insight !!



Will

Ask and ye shall receive! I have collected a few simple materials, and am gluing at the moment

No worries about "too simple", the simpler the better.
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Old 04-23-2011, 09:23 PM
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Again : I'm talking about something else : not evaporation.

Check water properties. It looks it is made ready for purification process. It has unique features among other elements from the same group.
All other are gases in our normal circumstances !
I'M SURE it can be converted into gas and back into 100% PURE water again.
So no evaporation, no Brown gas by electrolyse but isomer changing due to special ionization. All radiation, biological and chemical salts dissolved will remain residual in container after the process. Because only water has that ability.

Now you see something important : everything is special made for us, Earth also. We are just fools and concentrate on stupid things .... Yeah , people -make another Fukushima...
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Old 04-23-2011, 09:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boguslaw View Post
Again : I'm talking about something else : not evaporation.

Check water properties. It looks it is made ready for purification process. It has unique features among other elements from the same group.
All other are gases in our normal circumstances !
I'M SURE it can be converted into gas and back into 100% PURE water again.
So no evaporation, no Brown gas by electrolyse but isomer changing due to special ionization. All radiation, biological and chemical salts dissolved will remain residual in container after the process. Because only water has that ability.

Now you see something important : everything is special made for us, Earth also. We are just fools and concentrate on stupid things .... Yeah , people -make another Fukushima...
Thanks for the input. The goal for my thread here was to make available water purification to the masses using common household items. If your method can accomplish this I am all ears (a good idea is a good idea)
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Old 04-29-2011, 03:37 PM
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Here is the heart of the device as it stands now





The two magnets are large ceramic guys I picked up for 12.50 at a local surplus shop.

The white guide is simply made for hiding wires inside a house or office building, cost me 10$ for 5 feet.

The guide will be sandwiched in between the two magnets.

As it stands, water will enter the device through the leg of the "Y". As can be seen from the picture, there are wires running along the sides of the "Y" track which will be charged with high voltage. As the water passes down this chanel, the positive ions will be drawn to the negative terminal of the wire, and the negative ions towards the positive wire on each side of the track. As they move forward also, they will experiance further force (hall effect) from the magnetic field at right hand orientation to the flow. Both the magnetic and electric forces are set up to move positive ions towards one direction and negative towards another.

As they reach the intersection, they are allowed to go on their way, being split appart into two solutions.

This is step two (step one will be using the Kelvin Water Drop concept to generate the voltage needed for the separation before the water enters the magnetic Y intersection.)
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Old 04-30-2011, 03:15 AM
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What kind of testing will you do Armagdn03?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Armagdn03 View Post
I think perhaps you might have misread where the ions im my post come from. What you are referring to is self ionization of the water, or ionization caused by current flow through water...In my description the ions are already present, they are the impurities, this is what makes it an electrolytic solution. I used salt water as a description. Mix salt in with water, and walla, you have ions. Dont think Stan Meyer, as this is a different form of ionization.
No, salt in water is not ion. Salt ion is Na+ and Cl-. Just like water H+ and OH-.

Ion refer to something with voltage potential. Salt has zero potential. Energy is needed to ionize it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Armagdn03 View Post
The insulated electrodes are only to provide an electric field gradient, nothing more, whether there is water in the cup, air, oil etc... the electric field will pass radially through. No electron flow, just field.

The ions are separated by the electric field, once this happens, they have either a net positive charge towards the center and negative towards circumference, or vice versa. The magnetic field is there because of the way these charged particles act according to the right hand rule in a magnetic field. This is further separation of ions, AND further stimulation of rotational vortex. The magnet strength is more than enough!
Please investigate the rate. Would 100% of water will be ionized or just 0.01%?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Armagdn03 View Post
Yes I agree, all those dissolved materials are gennerally ions, not electrically neutral particles (and even if they were they can still be separated in this manor) The vortex naturally stratifies according to density therefore even without the magnetic / electric assist, the vortex itself can do much of this. The electric field and magnetic field augment the gravity induced vortex by including a self induced electrical vortex as well.
see the principle of GEET which use vortex, it need high energy too, in term of heat to ionize the fuel. vortex do not do much alone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Armagdn03 View Post
Right now what I have first described will do this! in fact many electrically based water purification systems on the market (kongen) sell products which output two forms of water, one good for you one not so good...same phenomenon.
Market product of kangen water use current, see the power consumption rate or how they make a big deal of surface area or how long their platinum plated electrode can last.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Armagdn03 View Post
Put the chlorinated water through again, and you will have a separation of neutral particles (water molecules) and the highly negatively charged ions (chlorine).
Ion will not stay ion forever, they will try to make stable molecule. It is a high change that it will produce chlorine as toxic gas.


I am not suggesting that you can't produce a better water, but I think you need more. voltage potential will do little. magnet and vortex do some because there are already testimony that people get good result, search magnetic water trap vortex.

Other important things is how do you test the water.
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Old 04-30-2011, 02:20 PM
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Hello again!

Quote:
What kind of testing will you do Armagdn03?

No, salt in water is not ion. Salt ion is Na+ and Cl-. Just like water H+ and OH-.
Ion refer to something with voltage potential. Salt has zero potential. Energy is needed to ionize it.
This is not quite the case, I am sure you are a bit confused because of the nature of the ions. When salt is desolved the Na+ and Cl- ARE ions. In fact they DO have a potential. The issue is that under the conditions of a solution, they are all intermingled, with no NET charge anywhere, meaning the summation of all of their charges is zero, meaning you do not normally notice a potential difference.

In fact natural ionic separation of water is how the water drop experiment works.

One of the first things I did (and I will have to take a video later) was to pour salt water through that Y tube and through the magnets. I had a multimeter probe in each solution that came out of the Y sections. As water was poured out, the magnet directed positive ions out one side of the Y track, and negative out the other, and guess what??? The voltage on the multimeter began to climb! Not really a mystery, and I definitely expected this to happen.



Quote:
Please investigate the rate. Would 100% of water will be ionized or just 0.01%?
My device does not ionize anything actually. The water is already ionized and I am separating the charged ions into two camps, positive and negative. Then through discharging the electrical charge in each solution, I release the ions, chlorine into gas, and the sodium precipitates out.


Quote:
see the principle of GEET which use vortex, it need high energy too, in term of heat to ionize the fuel. vortex do not do much alone.
Cannot comment much here, ill look more into this.


Quote:
Market product of kangen water use current, see the power consumption rate or how they make a big deal of surface area or how long their platinum plated electrode can last.

Yes I know this, I have a friend who has one. I used it as an example of separation of already present using current, but like I said, mine will be a potential field only.

Quote:
Ion will not stay ion forever, they will try to make stable molecule. It is a high change that it will produce chlorine as toxic gas.
Yes after two solutions of ions are electrically discharged into one another, chlorine gas probably will be evolved. If done outside, not really a problem. but something to be aware of.

Quote:
I am not suggesting that you can't produce a better water, but I think you need more. voltage potential will do little. magnet and vortex do some because there are already testimony that people get good result, search magnetic water trap vortex.

Other important things is how do you test the water.
I really think people are underestimating the power of the magnet and potential field! So far, my device works with magnet ALONE, not great, but does work.

Right now I am concentrating my effort on creating the largest potential difference between the two solutions which come out of the device. The more ionic separation has taken place, the more voltage will show between the two output solutions. I have bought a pH meter and testing kit online, but for now the potential difference is a good indicator.
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Old 05-02-2011, 02:51 PM
totoalas totoalas is offline
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Alkaline ncreasing ph of water

Ismael Healthy Mineral Water

Hi to all
Very interesting thread in water purifcation
By simply using a fogger for ultrasonic waves and an aquarium aerator
for bottled water with ph of less than 6 was able to raise it up to 7,3 ph
the plastic tap with n s oriented ring magnets
feels good
Magnet secrets by Peter linderman is also a good reference

YouTube - Purify ocean water
Spin off
YouTube - magnet hho
Vortex
YouTube - Vortex Your Water, For Health.
if you can combine the above with off the shelf parts
Then we have a spring water cloned lol
cheers
totoalas
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Old 05-03-2011, 05:09 AM
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Thanks Armagdn03. Will look forward for your results.

No plan for blind water taste testing?

Why do you consider more potential difference to be a good thing? Water conduct or produce voltage more if it contain more salt. Isn't more salt = bad?

Will look forward for pH testing too.
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Old 05-03-2011, 04:07 PM
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YouTube - How to get your name off the cancer list by Dr. John Gluckman (HD)
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Old 05-03-2011, 05:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sucahyo View Post
Thanks Armagdn03. Will look forward for your results.

No plan for blind water taste testing?

Why do you consider more potential difference to be a good thing? Water conduct or produce voltage more if it contain more salt. Isn't more salt = bad?

Will look forward for pH testing too.
Oh im sure there will be a few taste tests....

I consider more potential to be good for because this is a two step removal process. The first step separates all the ions, this gives us our potential diferennce. The more thoroughly the ions were separated, the higher the voltage will be. Thus higher voltage = better ionic separation.

One I discharge the ions through a load, the charges will be nuetralized, and the sodium and Clorine will either precipitate out or evolve gas. Every time you neutralize the ions you make the water more pure.
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Old 05-03-2011, 05:49 PM
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Armagdn03 Armagdn03 is offline
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I have not looked into how the machine works, but I am familiar with similar products. This is what I am trying to create for less than 100 bucks.

I had planed to remove both alkilinity and acidity, however one could skip the ion discharge phase, and puposelly keep a highly alkaline water for consumption and tweaking of the bodies pH balance.
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Old 05-03-2011, 06:05 PM
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Aaron Aaron is offline
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alkaline internal, acidic external

Quote:
Originally Posted by Armagdn03 View Post
I have not looked into how the machine works, but I am familiar with similar products. This is what I am trying to create for less than 100 bucks.

I had planed to remove both alkilinity and acidity, however one could skip the ion discharge phase, and puposelly keep a highly alkaline water for consumption and tweaking of the bodies pH balance.
If you purposely have an acidic water, that is good for external use and
is good for cleaning.

I hope you succeed in making something that meets the goals for under
$100!
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Old 05-03-2011, 10:07 PM
totoalas totoalas is offline
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Ismael Healthy Mineral Water

Thee was a nhk video showing the growng of oysters in japan
1 Those streams coming from denuded forest flowing to the sea produce small oysters

2. They rejuvunated the forest and planted more trees
results were 5 times larger than previous ones
So Spring water from mountains springs eternal life
In the Philippines
healers rejuvinate and recharge their powers thru a series baths on natural springs in Mt. Banahaw
Seawater is abundant
and your quest for a cheap purified water is a worthy cause
Hope others can share their expertise on
this
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Last edited by totoalas; 05-03-2011 at 10:21 PM.
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Old 05-03-2011, 10:32 PM
totoalas totoalas is offline
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Cheap UV soluton

http://www.energeticforum.com/129766-post1552.html
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Old 05-04-2011, 11:50 AM
totoalas totoalas is offline
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Natural pH ndicator

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HT...-acids/Natural pH ndicator
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