Energetic Forum  
Facebook Twitter Google+ Pinterest LinkedIn Delicious Digg Reddit WordPress StumbleUpon Tumblr Translate Addthis Aaron Murakami YouTube 2020 ENERGY CONFERENCE - PRE-REGISTER NOW!!!!

2020 Energy Science & Technology Conference
PRE-REGISTER NOW!!!
http://energyscienceconference.com


Go Back   Energetic Forum > >
   

Renewable Energy Discussion on various alternative energy, renewable energy, & free energy technologies. Also any discussion about the environment, global warming, and other related topics are welcome here.

* NEW * BEDINI RPX BOOK & DVD SET: BEDINI RPX

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1501  
Old 06-16-2012, 07:57 AM
Marso Green Marso Green is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by thissideup View Post
why is everyone trying to cool the gasses in condensors prior to entering the collection tanks, I intend to plumb the gas feed directly to the bottom of the collection tanks, then plumb the condensed fluid to a thermostatically controlled hydraulic cooler. I will have to always start the process with fluid in the tanks, but it will be much easier and more efficient to controll the temperature of the fluid that the gas will bubble through than to controll the temp of the gases directly. ultimately this is how a fractionating column works. they allow the gasses to bubble through fluid that is of the desired temperature, the desired fraction will then condense and remain with the fluid in that fraction. Is there any flaw in my thinking?

On an other matter, this unit shown will be both batch and continous feed, I Intend to run it while I work in the welding shop during the day. It will start out with a batch of plastic, that I intend to melt into wmo in the beginning, ( 20 L plastic pails that the oil comes in ) left over solvent and paint, and a bit of rubber from our scrap tires, then I intend to have an oil feed preheated by a coil in the exhast pipe, that will drip wmo and crude oil into the retort so that It may operate uninterupted for 8 to 10 hrs at a time. But I have a small problem, I have no Idea how to monitor the ammount of fluid in the retort after it is sealed up, I considered setting the unit up on a scale so that I may read the weight and adjust feed rate accordingly, anybody have any other suggestions?
Regarding gas bubbling through thermally controlled fluid, I like the idea, but what fluid would you use? The actual fractions you're looking to output? Should they be mixed with something else to allow slightly higher temperatures without risking the original fluid to evaporate? Also I'm not clear on the statement that this is how the fractioning column works. I was under the impression that a reboiler heats the bottom of the fractioning column and the temperatures are consistent with elevations, and trays are strategically placed at the desired temepratures for condensate. If that is not correct, could you please explain your theory?

As for the fluid level in your system, have you considered furnace sight glass? I recall seeing some that are rated well above any of the temperatures of interest to us

Regards,

Marso Green
__________________
 

Last edited by Marso Green; 06-16-2012 at 07:58 AM. Reason: Typo
Reply With Quote

Download SOLAR SECRETS by Peter Lindemann
Free - Get it now: Solar Secrets

  #1502  
Old 06-16-2012, 02:00 PM
Beyond Biodiesel Beyond Biodiesel is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Prescott, AZ
Posts: 391
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncorruptable View Post
Sorry, i intend to pack each section, what i am not sure on is should there be seperate catalyst in each section also?
Cat cracking only happens efficiently at elevated temperatures of 800F (425c). There is no reason to go above that temp for cracking to take place. And, no reason to mess with catalyst under that temp.

By the way, I forgot to mention that most of the coke in the retort is not carbon, but ash. Ash is dissolved salts, which is mostly silica. So, once the retort has been regenerated (carbon burned off) by admitting air, or O2, when it is at 800F (425c), then there is going to be a lot of ash at the bottom of the retort.

If you have a large ball valve at the bottom of your retort, once the retort has cooled, then you could pressurize it to 15 PSI (1bar) with compressed air, then open the drain valve. That should blow out most of the ash. If not, then try it again.
__________________
I have been running various blends of waste oils and unleaded gasoline in a 1983 Chevy G-20 van with a 6.2L diesel V-8 engine, with a Stanadyne Rotary DB2 IP since Feb, 2007. I have started the engine with no difficulty and no block heater on an 80/20 (WVO/gas) blend down to 0F (-18c). I have found that by blending as little as 15% gasoline in the summer, and as much as 50% in the winter, my engine starts and runs as if it was running on diesel fuel.
Reply With Quote
  #1503  
Old 06-16-2012, 02:02 PM
thissideup thissideup is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marso Green View Post
Regarding gas bubbling through thermally controlled fluid, I like the idea, but what fluid would you use? The actual fractions you're looking to output? Should they be mixed with something else to allow slightly higher temperatures without risking the original fluid to evaporate? Also I'm not clear on the statement that this is how the fractioning column works. I was under the impression that a reboiler heats the bottom of the fractioning column and the temperatures are consistent with elevations, and trays are strategically placed at the desired temepratures for condensate. If that is not correct, could you please explain your theory?

As for the fluid level in your system, have you considered furnace sight glass? I recall seeing some that are rated well above any of the temperatures of interest to us

Regards,

Marso Green
I simply plan to start the process for the first time with diesel / kerosine in the first collection tank and gasoline in the second, I will not be separating out the kerosine. Then that fluid will circulate to a cooler then return to the collection tank. It could not be mixed with anything else as that would then contaminate the end product but I see no reason to as by cooling the produced fluid to the desired temp then the only fluid that would evaporate are the lighter fractions which we would want to evaporate and move to the gasoline fraction anyhow. As for the sight glass, I'm pretty certain that the conditions inside the reactor would deposit a layer of carbon over the glass making it useless in short order.
In my understanding the trays are strategically placed in the column so as to cool naturally to the appropriate temperature, but these trays also hold a layer of condensed fluid with bubble caps that the up rising gas must bubble through in order to make its way up through the column. These trays then are plumbed to a collection system for that fraction. I simply will be replacing a column with my tanks that will be cooled mechanically to the desired temp as trying to design a column that would operate at the desired temp would be an engineering nightmare for someone with a grade 10 education. My tanks will however have packing similar to what others are putting in their condensors so as the break apart the gas bubbles and allow more of it to come into contact with the fluid the same way the foam on the end of the air hose in a fish tank breaks the bubbles down and adds air to the water more efficiently.
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #1504  
Old 06-16-2012, 04:10 PM
Marso Green Marso Green is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 40
fluid level

Quote:
Originally Posted by thissideup View Post
As for the sight glass, I'm pretty certain that the conditions inside the reactor would deposit a layer of carbon over the glass making it useless in short order.
.

Perhaps the level can be monitored indirectly through viewing glass in the condensers, not the reactor, where no carbon deposit will take place.

Alternatively, and if it's simpler to only monitor the reactor level, how about a float mechanism or level indicator with extension to the outside and temp rated ball joint seal? I wonder, however, if joint friction would be too high to make this approach viable


Just thinking out loud.

Marso Green
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #1505  
Old 06-16-2012, 05:24 PM
dutchdivco dutchdivco is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,000
Not sure I'm following you, but

How about this; You have "X" amount of fluid, that the gas 'bubbles thru', and this fliud is 'cooled' to the right temp,so that the fractions you want condense, while 'lighter' fractions reamain a gas and go on to the next section.
O.k., so when this 'new' material then 'adds to' the amount, so that its "X+", the level rises; simply have a 'drain' at this level, that would allow the 'extra' amount to run off to your collection tank?

Seems like with 'trial and error' you could set this 'drain' at the right 'height' so that when the circulating fluid was circulating, it would be 'just below' this drain, and therefore any material that condenced, and 'added to' this level, would run out the drain, yes? Granted, heat causes expansion, but this may be able to be 'allowed for', and this system may not need to be THAT exact.

Perhaps, after each run you would need to add a little fluid, to get your 'cooling fluid' to just the right level, to start things up? Jim
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #1506  
Old 06-16-2012, 10:08 PM
thissideup thissideup is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by dutchdivco View Post
How about this; You have "X" amount of fluid, that the gas 'bubbles thru', and this fliud is 'cooled' to the right temp,so that the fractions you want condense, while 'lighter' fractions reamain a gas and go on to the next section.
O.k., so when this 'new' material then 'adds to' the amount, so that its "X+", the level rises; simply have a 'drain' at this level, that would allow the 'extra' amount to run off to your collection tank?

Seems like with 'trial and error' you could set this 'drain' at the right 'height' so that when the circulating fluid was circulating, it would be 'just below' this drain, and therefore any material that condenced, and 'added to' this level, would run out the drain, yes? Granted, heat causes expansion, but this may be able to be 'allowed for', and this system may not need to be THAT exact.

Perhaps, after each run you would need to add a little fluid, to get your 'cooling fluid' to just the right level, to start things up? Jim
Pretty much the Idea, though I may install a level switch and electric fuel pump to pump the fluid from the collection tank to a 45 gallon drum when it reaches a certain level. I want to automate as much of the process as possible.
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #1507  
Old 06-19-2012, 11:28 AM
Excalibur's Avatar
Excalibur Excalibur is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beyond Biodiesel View Post
By the way, I forgot to mention that most of the coke in the retort is not carbon, but ash. Ash is dissolved salts, which is mostly silica. So, once the retort has been regenerated (carbon burned off) by admitting air, or O2, when it is at 800F (425c), then there is going to be a lot of ash at the bottom of the retort.

If you have a large ball valve at the bottom of your retort, once the retort has cooled, then you could pressurize it to 15 PSI (1bar) with compressed air, then open the drain valve. That should blow out most of the ash. If not, then try it again.
That is a most interesting and intriguing idea. Thanks for bringing it up.
Thinking in terms of total safety, when is it reasonable to commense the admittance of air. Logically I think that if the gas flow has stopped, then you wait 10mins more, is that being over cautious?
The large ballvalve you mention. This would no doubt need to be able to handle the 425C as it would be in contact with the retort heated feedstock. My memory says that high heat ballvalves are all metal construction with no plastic or rubber parts. Perhaps something along the lines of a steam valve?
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #1508  
Old 06-19-2012, 01:46 PM
Beyond Biodiesel Beyond Biodiesel is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Prescott, AZ
Posts: 391
Quote:
Originally Posted by Excalibur View Post
That is a most interesting and intriguing idea. Thanks for bringing it up.
Thinking in terms of total safety, when is it reasonable to commense the admittance of air. Logically I think that if the gas flow has stopped, then you wait 10mins more, is that being over cautious?
Once you are at your terminal temperature, then, after some time, you should find the exit flow nearly zero. This could be 15 minutes to hours for the exit gasses to drop that low. What you do not want to happen is admit air when there is still volatiles waiting to be evaporated Boom, ooh!

Also, once air, or O2 is admitted to your retort, then the temperature should rise to 1200F (650c) This is normal and expected for the regeneration cycle because C burns naturally at 1200F (650c). You may even need to raise the temp to that level before you begin your regeneration cycle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Excalibur View Post
The large ballvalve you mention. This would no doubt need to be able to handle the 425C as it would be in contact with the retort heated feedstock. My memory says that high heat ballvalves are all metal construction with no plastic or rubber parts. Perhaps something along the lines of a steam valve?
Ball valves are typically sealed with teflon, so they are good to 500F (260C). The way to keep from ruining a valve on a retort that goes higher than that, is to pipe the valve outside of the insulation far enough to a point that does not get hotter than 500F (260C). It would also be advisable to wait for the retort to drop below 500F (260C) before pressuring it to 15PSI (1bar) to blow out the ash. I would wait until it was near ambient temps.

Also, depending upon how big your retort is you will want that ball valve relatively large. Say a 55 gallon (200L) retort could use a 1" (2.54cm) ball valve. Larger than that would want a 2" (5cm) ball valve.

By the way, plastic cracking is not the only thing that one can extract fuel from with a retort and condensers. Terpenes can be extracted from any wood residues from the lumber industry. There are also some plant sources of terpenes that are even more abundant producers of terpenes. For instance, citrus rinds and seeds have an abundance of terpenes. Some trees drip terpenes, such as: acacias, cedars, eucalyptus, and tamarisk.

I am surprised that Jetijs, lives in a forest, in a country with lots of forest, and runs his retort near a lumber mill, but does not get free sawdust from that lumber mill to extract the Terpenes from to make his fuel. Instead he is buying bailed plastics. He is like a man in a boat surrounded by water, but he canít find any water to drink.
__________________
I have been running various blends of waste oils and unleaded gasoline in a 1983 Chevy G-20 van with a 6.2L diesel V-8 engine, with a Stanadyne Rotary DB2 IP since Feb, 2007. I have started the engine with no difficulty and no block heater on an 80/20 (WVO/gas) blend down to 0F (-18c). I have found that by blending as little as 15% gasoline in the summer, and as much as 50% in the winter, my engine starts and runs as if it was running on diesel fuel.
Reply With Quote
  #1509  
Old 06-19-2012, 04:17 PM
Asad Farooqui Asad Farooqui is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Karachi , pakistan
Posts: 135
Bio-mass pyrolysis

[QUOTE= I am surprised that Jetijs, lives in a forest, in a country with lots of forest, and runs his retort near a lumber mill, but does not get free sawdust from that lumber mill to extract the Terpenes from to make his fuel. Instead he is buying bailed plastics. He is like a man in a boat surrounded by water, but he canít find any water to drink.[/QUOTE]

Hello ;
Extracting Turpenes from sawdust .....
Have you done it yourself ???
If yes than you have done a wonderful Job .
Like to share your experience ???

If you haven't experimented yet ;
Than I think so you are trying to say about waste Bio-mass pyrolysis to OIL ...
What I know that Not only sawdust, waste lumber-wood but other waste Bio-masses like Corncobs, rice hush, grape seeds, wheat waste, sugar-cane waste etc etc can be pyrolysed into crude oil .
But this Oil is very thick/black & cannot be used directly as diesel/kerosene oil.

__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #1510  
Old 06-19-2012, 11:21 PM
Excalibur's Avatar
Excalibur Excalibur is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beyond Biodiesel View Post
Once you are at your terminal temperature, then, after some time, you should find the exit flow nearly zero. This could be 15 minutes to hours for the exit gasses to drop that low. What you do not want to happen is admit air when there is still volatiles waiting to be evaporated Boom, ooh!

Also, once air, or O2 is admitted to your retort, then the temperature should rise to 1200F (650c) This is normal and expected for the regeneration cycle because C burns naturally at 1200F (650c). You may even need to raise the temp to that level before you begin your regeneration cycle.

Ball valves are typically sealed with teflon, so they are good to 500F (260C). The way to keep from ruining a valve on a retort that goes higher than that, is to pipe the valve outside of the insulation far enough to a point that does not get hotter than 500F (260C). It would also be advisable to wait for the retort to drop below 500F (260C) before pressuring it to 15PSI (1bar) to blow out the ash. I would wait until it was near ambient temps.

Also, depending upon how big your retort is you will want that ball valve relatively large. Say a 55 gallon (200L) retort could use a 1" (2.54cm) ball valve. Larger than that would want a 2" (5cm) ball valve.
Thanks for the great comments
I've been giving some thought to the ball valve and the positioning in the retort. If it's placed on the retort floor but far enough away so as not to overheat, it would create a pocket of feedstock that would also be the last to evaporate once the cycle concludes.
Placing it on the retort wall at the lowest point possible could allow the melted feedstock to run back toward the reactor, especially if the pipe leading away had the valve end slightly elevated.
Another thought is to make my own valve from steel, employing a tapered seat. This way the valve could be anywhere on the wall or floor.

I ran a small test using 3 liters of oil 50/50 hydraulic & engine oil in a small vessel fired by a kero stove. In this trial I wanted to see what the lowest temperature the thermal cracking would work at. So following your suggestion earlier that maybe 260C could be enough, I gradually brought the heat up. Two hours after starting, the temp was 300C and here was the first faint signs of gas. I abandoned the test here but it appears that sub-300C temps are too low in this instance.
The question arose: is the temps required to crack say a 30W oil less than temps required to crack a 90W oil as feedstocks? I'm reasoning that the boiling points are different for the two fluids but are these relevant to cracking levels? Or am I completely wrong with the theory?
Thanks
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #1511  
Old 06-20-2012, 07:03 AM
Uncorruptable Uncorruptable is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beyond Biodiesel View Post
Once you are at your terminal temperature, then, after some time, you should find the exit flow nearly zero. This could be 15 minutes to hours for the exit gasses to drop that low. What you do not want to happen is admit air when there is still volatiles waiting to be evaporated Boom, ooh!
Are we referring to a continous feed build here? As the bubbler would notify you to any reverse action of air drawing back into the reactor, no?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Beyond Biodiesel View Post
I am surprised that Jetijs, lives in a forest, in a country with lots of forest, and runs his retort near a lumber mill, but does not get free sawdust from that lumber mill to extract the Terpenes from to make his fuel. Instead he is buying bailed plastics. He is like a man in a boat surrounded by water, but he canít find any water to drink.
Hmm, would sheets of chipboard be of any use for this?

It contains quite a few other chemicals in the form of resins & waxes etc but i can lay my hands on literally tons of this on a very regular basis?
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #1512  
Old 06-20-2012, 07:34 AM
Asad Farooqui Asad Farooqui is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Karachi , pakistan
Posts: 135
chipboard

Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hmm, would sheets of [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particle_board"
chipboard[/URL] be of any use for this?
It contains quite a few other chemicals in the form of resins & waxes etc but i can lay my hands on literally tons of this on a very regular basis?
Hello ;
Chipboard contains Urea Formaldehyde (UF) resin as a binder.
Pyrolysing chipboard means effects of UF has to be considered . How Uf can effect the pyrolysed oil properties ???

Most importantly, Do you know how to pyrolyse Bio-Mass ???

All around the world experts mainly focus on pyrolysisng PE & PP type plastics.
So for small scale units this is the Best Bet .


Lastly I would like to request ;
We should only suggest anything on the Forum, Untill we have tried it ourself.

Lots of people go through this forum & they believe that as it is written at the forum, than definitely its true .
People like Jetijs I see, there experiments speak more than he himself .

I can give you a list of 50 different Bio-masses & Marine wastes like Algea which could be pyrolysied to oils .
Research is going on to make car-fuel oil like diesel,kerosene,gasoline, pestisides , chemicals & solvents .
But it requires very expensive High tech machines .

Please keep things simple don't complicate them .


__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #1513  
Old 06-20-2012, 08:04 AM
Uncorruptable Uncorruptable is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asad Farooqui View Post
Please keep things simple don't complicate them .
Hi Asad,

I guess that is a no as the short answer, would this material be attractive to anyone do you think? As i said, i can access large quantitys of chipboard material that goes to rechipping.

P.S.

Very good point regarding discussion v's actual tried & tested.
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #1514  
Old 06-20-2012, 11:07 AM
Excalibur's Avatar
Excalibur Excalibur is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncorruptable View Post
Are we referring to a continous feed build here? As the bubbler would notify you to any reverse action of air drawing back into the reactor, no?
Hi Uncorruptable
No. Continuous feed or bubblers aren't mentioned in the current discussion you refer to. For the full picture, please re-read from post 1505.
It's about cleaning the retort without dismantling, a sort of "Clean-In-Place" approach.
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #1515  
Old 06-20-2012, 01:45 PM
Uncorruptable Uncorruptable is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Excalibur View Post
Hi Uncorruptable
No. Continuous feed or bubblers aren't mentioned in the current discussion you refer to. For the full picture, please re-read from post 1505.
It's about cleaning the retort without dismantling, a sort of "Clean-In-Place" approach.
Ahh i see, i will be happy just to proceed with a batch system that i have to clean myself at the end of the process for now, you have to learn to walk before you can run as the saying goes.

Having consulted my electrician he has confirmed that i can use an old electric cooker for the purpose of heating, he has told me (as jetijs did way back on page 1) how to measure the output and wire needed via resistance from multimeter to replace the elements on the cooker, i will then use the controls from the oven, grill & one of the top rings to increase the heating power to the reactor. The combined power acheived will be 6 Kw from the three coils.

I have sourced materials for reflux column & will begin construction of that this weekend.

Fire bricks rated to 1500'c at Ä2.35 each, quite thin so i will have to work out how i am going to suspend the electric coils as i dont think i could afford to cut into the bricks, i want to be able to retain aas much 'wall' as possible to keep heat in, any ideas?
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #1516  
Old 06-20-2012, 02:10 PM
Beyond Biodiesel Beyond Biodiesel is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Prescott, AZ
Posts: 391
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asad Farooqui View Post
Hello ;
Extracting Turpenes from sawdust .....
Have you done it yourself ???
If yes than you have done a wonderful Job .
Like to share your experience ???

If you haven't experimented yet ;
Than I think so you are trying to say about waste Bio-mass pyrolysis to OIL ...
What I know that Not only sawdust, waste lumber-wood but other waste Bio-masses like Corncobs, rice hush, grape seeds, wheat waste, sugar-cane waste etc etc can be pyrolysed into crude oil .
But this Oil is very thick/black & cannot be used directly as diesel/kerosene oil.

I ran my engine for about 200 miles on Pure Gum Turpentine blended at 20% with WVO at 80%. It ran great, so I am now heading to extracting my own terpenes. And, yes some terpenes are thick, but that is why we are discussing here thermal cracking and distillation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Excalibur View Post
The question arose: is the temps required to crack say a 30W oil less than temps required to crack a 90W oil as feedstocks? I'm reasoning that the boiling points are different for the two fluids but are these relevant to cracking levels? Or am I completely wrong with the theory?
Thanks
Thermal cracking happens at elevated temperatures (260c up). The more complex the hydrocarbon chain, then the higher its boiling point, and the more unstable that molecule becomes, so it is more likely to crack at elevated temperatures.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncorruptable View Post
Hmm, would sheets of chipboard be of any use for this?

It contains quite a few other chemicals in the form of resins & waxes etc but i can lay my hands on literally tons of this on a very regular basis?
Yes, chip board should work, but turpentine is volatile, so the older the wood, the more processed the wood, the less turpentine you will find.

The sources of crackable hydrocarbons are vast, so we cannot expect someone to have tried cracking all of the sources. There is a simple principle at work here in a discussion of thermal cracking. Terpenes, resins, binders, waxes, plastics, algae oil are all hydrocarbons; therefore they are likely to crack, like any other complex hydrocarbon, at elevated temperatures into simpler hydrocarbons that can be condensed and burned like diesel fuel and gasoline.
__________________
I have been running various blends of waste oils and unleaded gasoline in a 1983 Chevy G-20 van with a 6.2L diesel V-8 engine, with a Stanadyne Rotary DB2 IP since Feb, 2007. I have started the engine with no difficulty and no block heater on an 80/20 (WVO/gas) blend down to 0F (-18c). I have found that by blending as little as 15% gasoline in the summer, and as much as 50% in the winter, my engine starts and runs as if it was running on diesel fuel.
Reply With Quote
  #1517  
Old 06-20-2012, 02:48 PM
Uncorruptable Uncorruptable is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beyond Biodiesel View Post

Yes, chip board should work, but turpentine is volatile, so the older the wood, the more processed the wood, the less turpentine you will find.

.
Ok, the sheets of chip i can aquire are all completley new & dry, how do we go about cracking these once they have been chipped again?

Not intending to go down this route just yet but it will be looked into for sure, i can easily obtain a paallet full of 5 foot X 5 foot sheets x 5 foot high on a weekly maybe fortnightly basis.
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #1518  
Old 06-20-2012, 11:49 PM
Excalibur's Avatar
Excalibur Excalibur is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncorruptable View Post
Having consulted my electrician he has confirmed that i can use an old electric cooker for the purpose of heating, he has told me (as jetijs did way back on page 1) how to measure the output and wire needed via resistance from multimeter to replace the elements on the cooker, i will then use the controls from the oven, grill & one of the top rings to increase the heating power to the reactor. The combined power acheived will be 6 Kw from the three coils.

I have sourced materials for reflux column & will begin construction of that this weekend.

Fire bricks rated to 1500'c at Ä2.35 each, quite thin so i will have to work out how i am going to suspend the electric coils as i dont think i could afford to cut into the bricks, i want to be able to retain aas much 'wall' as possible to keep heat in, any ideas?
Please post pics of the cooker type you are using. Also the reflux construction.
Obviously you've seen post #26 with Jetijs slotted aluminum oxide bricks. This would make life easier but it looks like you've chosen plain thinner bricks. My assumption is that the coils will need considerable support. A thought was to run them vertical though I think the shear weight would make them sag with the red-hot heat. A second thought was to run the wire in "straight runs" up and down.
Google kiln images ...might be some good ideas here, like how the wire is held captive in a toaster.
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #1519  
Old 06-21-2012, 04:26 AM
thissideup thissideup is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Excalibur View Post
Please post pics of the cooker type you are using. Also the reflux construction.
Obviously you've seen post #26 with Jetijs slotted aluminum oxide bricks. This would make life easier but it looks like you've chosen plain thinner bricks. My assumption is that the coils will need considerable support. A thought was to run them vertical though I think the shear weight would make them sag with the red-hot heat. A second thought was to run the wire in "straight runs" up and down.
Google kiln images ...might be some good ideas here, like how the wire is held captive in a toaster.
Has anyone tried refractory cement? haven read anything about it yet, but maybe i missed it. should be cheaper than the bricks,
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #1520  
Old 06-21-2012, 08:26 AM
Uncorruptable Uncorruptable is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Excalibur View Post
Please post pics of the cooker type you are using. ...might be some good ideas here, like how the wire is held captive in a toaster.
Here is the model cooker i will be using, the front left hob outputs 2000w, the grill element gives out 2000w, and it is not listed on the manual but the oven element gives out 1900w i have read elsewhere.

http://fiftyeggs.blob.core.windows.n...uals/D531A.pdf

I wonder, the metal housing of the elements, is it possible to reshape them to a circle? I would imagine they are brittle, but they carry a coiled wire inside that, i wonder could the outer housing be reshaped to carry the coiled wire in a circle?
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #1521  
Old 06-21-2012, 09:00 AM
Uncorruptable Uncorruptable is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 28
Here is the unit,



And i will strip out the electronics & mount the dials i need on a seperate board and then discard the shell of the cooker,

__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #1522  
Old 06-21-2012, 02:44 PM
Beyond Biodiesel Beyond Biodiesel is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Prescott, AZ
Posts: 391
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncorruptable View Post
Ok, the sheets of chip i can aquire are all completley new & dry, how do we go about cracking these once they have been chipped again?

Not intending to go down this route just yet but it will be looked into for sure, i can easily obtain a paallet full of 5 foot X 5 foot sheets x 5 foot high on a weekly maybe fortnightly basis.
Anything can be used as a source of crackable hydrocarbons. So, your scraps of chip board should work fine. You may want to run them through a chipper to get them into manageable size to shovel into your retort.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thissideup View Post
Has anyone tried refractory cement? haven read anything about it yet, but maybe i missed it. should be cheaper than the bricks,
When I did research at The University of Arizona in the astronomy and optical sciences departments they made molds out of refractory cement to cast primary mirrors out of pyrex. So, it should work fine to mold a kiln out of. After all, the temperatures needed for cracking hydrocarbons are a lot lower than those needed for a kiln.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncorruptable View Post
Here is the model cooker i will be using, the front left hob outputs 2000w, the grill element gives out 2000w, and it is not listed on the manual but the oven element gives out 1900w i have read elsewhere.

http://fiftyeggs.blob.core.windows.n...uals/D531A.pdf

I wonder, the metal housing of the elements, is it possible to reshape them to a circle? I would imagine they are brittle, but they carry a coiled wire inside that, i wonder could the outer housing be reshaped to carry the coiled wire in a circle?
A common stove, such as you are planning on using should work fine as a cracking unit; however, you may want to beef up the insulation with refractory board. You probably will not need for than an inch of refractory board in addition to the existing insulation in the stove.

Don't bother to reshape the elements in the stove, because they are brittle, and easily broken.
__________________
I have been running various blends of waste oils and unleaded gasoline in a 1983 Chevy G-20 van with a 6.2L diesel V-8 engine, with a Stanadyne Rotary DB2 IP since Feb, 2007. I have started the engine with no difficulty and no block heater on an 80/20 (WVO/gas) blend down to 0F (-18c). I have found that by blending as little as 15% gasoline in the summer, and as much as 50% in the winter, my engine starts and runs as if it was running on diesel fuel.
Reply With Quote
  #1523  
Old 06-21-2012, 02:57 PM
Uncorruptable Uncorruptable is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beyond Biodiesel View Post
Anything can be used as a source of crackable hydrocarbons. So, your scraps of chip board should work fine. You may want to run them through a chipper to get them into manageable size to shovel into your retort.
I intended to reduce it to sawdust again, perhaps then mixed with WMO would be a good feedstock to get temp up?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beyond Biodiesel View Post
A common stove, such as you are planning on using should work fine as a cracking unit; however, you may want to beef up the insulation with refractory board. You probably will not need for than an inch of refractory board in addition to the existing insulation in the stove.

Don't bother to reshape the elements in the stove, because they are brittle, and easily broken.
You misunderstand me, i intend to strip out all the electrics & relocate them in my reactor/kiln chamber with the dials being the only part retained outside for control, i will discard the shell of the cooker then after, i intend to use a 200l barrel (which i have a new one in perfect condition already).

Seeing as the wire inside the coil is most likley already the correct wire, perhaps breaking the outer housing off & then relocating it inside a circular bent copper coil that has been angle grinded in half to create a type of tray for it to sit in is an option for suspending the coils already there?
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #1524  
Old 06-21-2012, 05:47 PM
CRMoore CRMoore is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Delaware
Posts: 42
ERM on the run?

Here's good news or those who have been around for a year or so: ERM's website-the one that featured text and photos from this forum (w/o permission) seems to have finally bitten the dust. You just get a generic "being updated" screen when googling them.
__________________
CRMoore

crmoore@udel.edu
Reply With Quote
  #1525  
Old 06-21-2012, 10:02 PM
Excalibur's Avatar
Excalibur Excalibur is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncorruptable View Post
I intended to reduce it to sawdust again, perhaps then mixed with WMO would be a good feedstock to get temp up?
You misunderstand me, i intend to strip out all the electrics & relocate them in my reactor/kiln chamber with the dials being the only part retained outside for control, i will discard the shell of the cooker then after, i intend to use a 200l barrel (which i have a new one in perfect condition already).
Seeing as the wire inside the coil is most likley already the correct wire, perhaps breaking the outer housing off & then relocating it inside a circular bent copper coil that has been angle grinded in half to create a type of tray for it to sit in is an option for suspending the coils already there?
The sawdust/oil slurry sounds interesting. It should work. It could even be pump-able with a slurry pump however your reactor isnt big enough to warrant a pump I suspect.

Funnily enough, I'd thought of using an oven for heating the reactor vessel.
It would be limited to the size vessel one could fit however if it were continuous feed, smaller may be some advantage.

Nichrome wire inside a copper coil would short out directly to the copper so it needs to be electrically insulated to the metal. Ceramic beads might do the trick. Ones with holes through their center. Some necklace beads are ceramic so this might be a cheap source. Hopefully you can get the nichrome out of the oven elements and re-use for your heaters. They must have their own ceramic insulators inside the oven coils?? A man is certainly bound to try, I know I would.
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #1526  
Old 06-22-2012, 01:53 AM
Marso Green Marso Green is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 40
Inaccurate

Quote:
Originally Posted by CRMoore View Post
Here's good news or those who have been around for a year or so: ERM's website-the one that featured text and photos from this forum (w/o permission) seems to have finally bitten the dust. You just get a generic "being updated" screen when googling them.
That post is inaccurate. Their website is still up.
Tires To Oil | Oil | tyres | Generator | Thermal depolymerisation | tires | tire | Waste | Into | Oil | ERM | fuel | diesel

Marso Green
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #1527  
Old 06-22-2012, 05:28 AM
thissideup thissideup is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Excalibur View Post
The sawdust/oil slurry sounds interesting. It should work. It could even be pump-able with a slurry pump however your reactor isnt big enough to warrant a pump I suspect.

Funnily enough, I'd thought of using an oven for heating the reactor vessel.
It would be limited to the size vessel one could fit however if it were continuous feed, smaller may be some advantage.

Nichrome wire inside a copper coil would short out directly to the copper so it needs to be electrically insulated to the metal. Ceramic beads might do the trick. Ones with holes through their center. Some necklace beads are ceramic so this might be a cheap source. Hopefully you can get the nichrome out of the oven elements and re-use for your heaters. They must have their own ceramic insulators inside the oven coils?? A man is certainly bound to try, I know I would.
Im almost certain you can buy heatinging elements just like your stove burner that you can shape before the first use. then heating them up cures them, as to where and how much, I have no idea.
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #1528  
Old 06-22-2012, 06:30 AM
Uncorruptable Uncorruptable is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Excalibur View Post
Hopefully you can get the nichrome out of the oven elements and re-use for your heaters. They must have their own ceramic insulators inside the oven coils?? A man is certainly bound to try, I know I would.
I intend to take the elements out & place the long running piece of the first side into the jaws of my bench vice, turn until i have it gripped, & then ever so slowly inch it until the outer housing breaks, hopefully then it can be prized away from the wire, repeat alomg the entire element.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thissideup View Post
Im almost certain you can buy heatinging elements just like your stove burner that you can shape before the first use. then heating them up cures them, as to where and how much, I have no idea.
I'll have a look, thanks.
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #1529  
Old 06-22-2012, 01:50 PM
Beyond Biodiesel Beyond Biodiesel is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Prescott, AZ
Posts: 391
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncorruptable View Post
I intended to reduce it to sawdust again, perhaps then mixed with WMO would be a good feedstock to get temp up?
Whatever is less effort will be something you will spend more time doing. A chipper is something that I might get if I find a source of free wood. Or, just follow the lumber crews around the forest and shovel their chips into a mobile retort.

I thought I would fuel the retort with the saw dust and chips that had been through the retort.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncorruptable View Post
You misunderstand me, i intend to strip out all the electrics & relocate them in my reactor/kiln chamber with the dials being the only part retained outside for control, i will discard the shell of the cooker then after, i intend to use a 200l barrel (which i have a new one in perfect condition already).

Seeing as the wire inside the coil is most likley already the correct wire, perhaps breaking the outer housing off & then relocating it inside a circular bent copper coil that has been angle grinded in half to create a type of tray for it to sit in is an option for suspending the coils already there?
Recycling an oven to run a retort sounds like a good idea to me. But, a drum does not seem to be substantial enough to use as a retort, because all you need is a leak, and your whole operation goes up in flames spectacularly. How about recycling an old propane tank, or compressor tank, into a retort? Do make sure there is no more propane in the tank before you weld on it.
__________________
I have been running various blends of waste oils and unleaded gasoline in a 1983 Chevy G-20 van with a 6.2L diesel V-8 engine, with a Stanadyne Rotary DB2 IP since Feb, 2007. I have started the engine with no difficulty and no block heater on an 80/20 (WVO/gas) blend down to 0F (-18c). I have found that by blending as little as 15% gasoline in the summer, and as much as 50% in the winter, my engine starts and runs as if it was running on diesel fuel.
Reply With Quote
  #1530  
Old 06-22-2012, 02:46 PM
Uncorruptable Uncorruptable is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beyond Biodiesel View Post
Whatever is less effort will be something you will spend more time doing. A chipper is something that I might get if I find a source of free wood. Or, just follow the lumber crews around the forest and shovel their chips into a mobile retort.

I thought I would fuel the retort with the saw dust and chips that had been through the retort.

Recycling an oven to run a retort sounds like a good idea to me. But, a drum does not seem to be substantial enough to use as a retort, because all you need is a leak, and your whole operation goes up in flames spectacularly. How about recycling an old propane tank, or compressor tank, into a retort? Do make sure there is no more propane in the tank before you weld on it.
Sorry if i am not being clear, i intend to house a reactor inside a drum as jetijs did, i am trying to source a good option for a reactor & am in contact with a compressor service enginneer i know who may be able to get me a 50litre cylinder.

What would you guys think about using a truck fuel tank?

__________________
 
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



Please consider supporting Energetic Forum with a voluntary monthly subscription.

Choose your voluntary subscription

For one-time donations, please use the below button.


All times are GMT. The time now is 06:57 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v1.4.0 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Shoutbox provided by vBShout v6.2.8 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
2007-2015 Copyright - Energetic Forum - All Rights Reserved

Bedini RPX Sideband Generator

Tesla Chargers