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  #721  
Old 08-12-2011, 03:37 PM
extraloud extraloud is offline
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To Jetijs

Hello - thank you for you contributions to the community

you have said you have only sun dried your clays ? or have you also baked them ?

red clay pots like this are common - they have been baked i believe :



i am figuring I could crush clay pots like this - what are you thoughts ?

I also have access to wet clays which can be formed and sun dried - what would you suggest ? baked or sun dried ?

thank you very much
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  #722  
Old 08-12-2011, 05:44 PM
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Jetijs Jetijs is offline
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Hi,
I have never tried baked clay. This is yet to be tried. My setup is not operational at the moment and I am not sure when I will resume the tests as there are currently other matters at my hands. I only have tried three catalysts - red clay, blye clay and aluminum oxide. Clays work well, aluminum oxide not at all.
Thanks,
Jetijs.
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  #723  
Old 08-13-2011, 11:14 AM
imakebiodiesel imakebiodiesel is offline
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Hi Jetijs, I hope you are back in operation soon, your experiments have been invaluable. I have finished making my reflux column today. I got some red clay last week and moulded it into small cubes about 15mm square. They have been drying for several days now so should be ready. Im going to pack the column full of these.
The temperature I intend to use in the reactor is 380C. previously I let the temp rise to 420c and always got waxes. From what Ive researched we want the vapours to enter the bottom of the column at around 220c and exit at the top at 150c. Does that sound right?
Keith 20mm a tall water bubbler will work better than a short one and will also increase the internal pressure within the system but I found that placing several dry condensers before the bubbler saves the hassle of separating the water and fuel. I use an air cooled condenser followed by a water cooled condenser followed by the bubbler. That way almost no fuel makes it as far as the bubbler.
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  #724  
Old 08-13-2011, 11:29 AM
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Jetijs Jetijs is offline
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Hi imakebiodiesel,
Your temperature settings sound right. If tou can maintain them, everything should be fine. In the first run you will probably have some ammounts of water in the produced fuel as the sun dried clay is never perfectly dry, also the fuel yield in the first time wont be as much as in second or thrid run as the dry clay tends to soak up some fuel like a sponge. In the first run I always get a bit misty fuel, but that filters out easily leaving you great looking fuel, clear and bright. On the second and third run you might net even have to filter it
Hope everything will work out well in your setup.
As for me, I am stuck a bit. I got the ceramic band heater for my test setup, but I noticed that it is intended for 480V and those voltages are not available for me here, as far as I know that is an industrial electrical standard in US. The best I can get is only 400V between phases in delta configuration, this means that my ceramic heater rated 4.2kW will only operate at 70% power, or around 3kW, which is still good, but could be better. I also got my bigger heaters - two 5.4KW 9.75" diameter and 8" tall ones. This will allow me to make a reactor with a volume of around 40L. But they are also on 480V, this means that at 400V the combined power will be 7.56KW. Not as good as 10.8kW at full power, but still better than our first version that had 50L reactor and only 6kW heaters. I am thinking of maybe using a 3 phase rectifier between phases, but my calculations show that this would give around 540V or a bit more, and that is too much. Maybe there is a way to limit the power a bit? Any thoughts? On the other hand, those big heaters use mica insulation, just as my small setup did and it did fail eventually, so maybe using it on reduced power will prevent it from failing? Might be that the small one failed because it was constantly removed off the reactor after every run, and this physical deformation is the cause of the fail. Those big heaters I intend to put on the reactor and not remove so as not to cause any physical damage. As far as I know, depending on the brand, 350-380 degrees is the max mica heaters can handle. My test setup went as high as 440 degrees, but that was at the beginning of the tests, later I only get as high as 380 degrees. Some food for thought

Jetijs
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  #725  
Old 08-13-2011, 11:30 AM
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Jetijs Jetijs is offline
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imakebiodiesel, can you post any pictures of your setup?
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  #726  
Old 08-13-2011, 03:26 PM
fibuslitero fibuslitero is offline
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Japanese machinery

Hi:
I have found this japanese machinery with continuous operation system by gravity.
I think it give us a lot of information for domestic setups
Also says their process can be also used for biodiesel instead of transesterification (I think that only with very few modifications over the plastics setup).

CONTINUOUS WASTE PLASTIC CATALYTIC CRACKING OIL PRODUCTION - YouTube

Recycle Energy Co.,Ltd - CONTINUOUS WASTE PLASTIC CATALYTIC CRACKING OIL PRODUCTION and CATALYTIC CRACKING BIODIESEL PRODUCTION-
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  #727  
Old 08-13-2011, 03:32 PM
fibuslitero fibuslitero is offline
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Also this link :

CATALYTIC CRACKING OIL PRODUCTION - YouTube
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  #728  
Old 08-13-2011, 04:03 PM
fibuslitero fibuslitero is offline
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To Extraloud

Hi:
In this experiment (cracking a hydrocarbon) the teacher says the catalyst can be pumice stone or pieces of broken plant pot so what you suggested seems to be right

Cracking a Hydrocarbon - YouTube

The experiment is basic but very very interesting for all of us imho


Quote:
Originally Posted by extraloud View Post
Hello - thank you for you contributions to the community

you have said you have only sun dried your clays ? or have you also baked them ?

red clay pots like this are common - they have been baked i believe :



i am figuring I could crush clay pots like this - what are you thoughts ?

I also have access to wet clays which can be formed and sun dried - what would you suggest ? baked or sun dried ?

thank you very much
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  #729  
Old 08-13-2011, 08:17 PM
Asad Farooqui Asad Farooqui is offline
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heater bands .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetijs View Post
I got the ceramic band heater for my test setup, but I noticed that it is intended for 480V and those voltages are not available for me here, as far as I know that is an industrial electrical standard in US. The best I can get is only 400V between phases in delta configuration Any thoughts?

Might be that the small one failed because it was constantly removed off the reactor after every run, and this physical deformation is the cause of the fail. Some food for thought
hello jetijs ;
Iam using electric heater about six months or so & was the first one to mention it on this forum.
1) I found out that heaters once fitted very tightly with the reactor walls should not be removed again & again . If once they are loose fitted they will DIE . Iam quite sure this what happened in your case .

2) Electric heater first I connected in a three phase 440V setting but now i changed the wiring of the same heaters in a single phase configuration .
This consumes more elec power but makes the heats the reactor quickly, infact in half the time .

3) I use electric heater Bands & cover/wrap them in ceramic wool which can resist upto 1000 celcius .
I've gone upto 450-Celsius temperature without any problem .

4) Did U try to use clay mixed with waste plastic in the reactor & pyrolyse it ??? Let the fun begin ......
Iam nowadays experimenting it & getting very funny results .


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  #730  
Old 08-13-2011, 08:35 PM
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Jetijs Jetijs is offline
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Hi Asad
Thank you for the info. Now I am convinced that mica bands should handle the task and it was constant taking off and putting on action that killed it.
I have never tried mixing catalysts with the reactor contents, I believe the catalyst must meet the feedstock only in vapor/gas form
Thanks,
Jetijs
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  #731  
Old 08-13-2011, 08:36 PM
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Jetijs Jetijs is offline
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Asad, I am curious of how you got 440V? Do you have some industrial power line or that can be achieved with some kind of 3 phase setup?
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  #732  
Old 08-14-2011, 03:40 PM
Asad Farooqui Asad Farooqui is offline
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440V setup

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetijs View Post
Asad, I am curious of how you got 440V?
Hello Jetijs ;
In my country 220V A/C power in single & three phase is available .
First I SIMPLY connected TWO phases of 220V each with the band heaters.
This gave the 220+220=440V .

Now I simply connect single phase 220V (One neutral & One phase of 220V).
This heats the reactor more quickly although consumes more power .
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  #733  
Old 08-14-2011, 03:53 PM
Asad Farooqui Asad Farooqui is offline
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catalyst types

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetijs View Post
Hi Asad
I have never tried mixing catalysts with the reactor contents, I believe the catalyst must meet the feedstock only in vapor/gas form
Thanks,
Jetijs
Hello Again ;
I've studied there are two types of catalyst cintacts ;
1) gaseous phase contact catalyst
2) Liquid Phase contact catalyst

Your type is the gaseous phase where the vapors reacts .

In the liquid phase type the feedstock is mixed with the catalyst so the reaction starts as soon as the feedstock turns into liquid form .
The benefits achieved could be faster cracking speed (could be half the time) and at relatively lower temperatures .
Iam experimenting to achieve a cracking temperature of 300 celsius .

I would like to invite the community to start experimenting with the liquid phase catalysts also ....
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  #734  
Old 08-14-2011, 05:41 PM
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Jetijs Jetijs is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asad Farooqui View Post
Hello Jetijs ;
In my country 220V A/C power in single & three phase is available .
First I SIMPLY connected TWO phases of 220V each with the band heaters.
This gave the 220+220=440V .

Now I simply connect single phase 220V (One neutral & One phase of 220V).
This heats the reactor more quickly although consumes more power .
Do you have a circuit schematic? As far as I know, then max you can get in delta config (between phases) is 400V. I measured it and there really are 400V at least in this config:

Also in delta (triangle) config. Where did you get those extra 40V? A drawing would be much appreciated.
Thanks,
Jetijs
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  #735  
Old 08-15-2011, 02:58 PM
extraloud extraloud is offline
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to Asad ( catalyst )

i agree that some catalyst are effective in the liquid - at first i had my doubts, but i have read that this is effective in the way you described. Do you have any comments or suggestions to add to the following list - especially the liquid ?

for vapor phase i will try the following:
pumice stone
baked red clay ( pottery )
sun dried clays
calcium Bentonite or sodium Bentonite (maybe both - using kitty litter/oil spill clean)

for liquid phase I will try:
CaOH2
???
maybe something from this list ---> Raw Materials, Stains, Dry Clay & Glaze Ingredients

I should be up and running this week and will be trying the following with PE & PP plastics
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  #736  
Old 08-15-2011, 03:32 PM
extraloud extraloud is offline
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also zeolites

i may tries some of these as well - i know zeolites come in many different forms and these may not be the rights ones for a cracking catalyst - they are used in fish tanks for ammonia control / soils / etc

Amazon.com: Rena 730A Zeolite Ammonia Remover: Pet Supplies

Amazon.com: Littermaid Natural Zeolite Cat Deodorizer For Single And Multi Cat Households, Fresh Scent, 20-Ounce: Pet Supplies

Amazon.com: Zeolite+ 100% Natural Powder 16oz: Health & Personal Care

Amazon.com: ZEOMAX Zeolite Turf Aid 50 lb: Patio, Lawn & Garden

Amazon.com: Lee's Zeolite Cartridge, Disposable, 2-Pack: Pet Supplies
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  #737  
Old 08-16-2011, 03:37 PM
Asad Farooqui Asad Farooqui is offline
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catalyst types

Quote:
Originally Posted by extraloud View Post
i agree that some catalyst are effective in the liquid - at first i had my doubts, but i have read that this is effective in the way you described. Do you have any comments or suggestions to add to the following list - especially the liquid ?
Hello ;
Iam testing Bentonite clay as liquid phase contact .Interestingly there are various types of them . check whichone is available locally .
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  #738  
Old 08-16-2011, 07:12 PM
imakebiodiesel imakebiodiesel is offline
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Before taking my reactor apart to add the new reflux column, I decided to run a batch through at the lower temperatures. I used 40% PE, 40%PP, 20%WMO and 2% lime. I heated it up to 380C and maintained the highest point on the pipe exiting the top of the reactor at 150C by keeping it covered with a wet cloth. There was no catalyst involved.
The fuel yielded was a dark orange colour, very clear, very liquid even when cooled, but has now waxed slightly, but not nearly as much as before. The lower temp cracking certainly works and if the addition of a catalyst improves it just a little bit more I think the problem is solved.
Asad other liquid phase additives might include wood ash and perlite.
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  #739  
Old 08-17-2011, 04:39 AM
islander islander is offline
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voltage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetijs View Post
Do you have a circuit schematic? As far as I know, then max you can get in delta config (between phases) is 400V. I measured it and there really are 400V at least in this config:

Also in delta (triangle) config. Where did you get those extra 40V? A drawing would be much appreciated.
Thanks,
Jetijs
he very probably get the extra 40V by electricity power grid overvoltage. volunteer overvoltage so at the end of the power grid lines, the company still can deliver a sufficient voltage, example 210V. when the company is said to deliver 240V in our countries, it seldom really meet that (would be over or under)

with huge resistances as you work with, it certainly have an impact.
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  #740  
Old 08-17-2011, 07:34 AM
noeladdison noeladdison is offline
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That is an impressive invention! You are such a genius! But I am just curious if your invention can help in reducing the pollution in this planet...
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  #741  
Old 08-18-2011, 05:32 AM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noeladdison View Post
That is an impressive invention! You are such a genius! But I am just curious if your invention can help in reducing the pollution in this planet...
Yes it does. It removes plastics from the environment and releases the life giving gas carbon dioxide when the fuel is burned. Life on earth cannot exist without CO2, plants breath it. Check out the carbon cycle.

Carbon taxes are a tax on life itself and global warming is another bankster scam, its not happening. It is the cycles of the sun and earth that causes temperature change on earth.

Real pollution is genetically modified organisms, nuclear fuels and weapons, inorganic chemicals and toxic substances in foods and vaccines (Big Pharma). You will find that the same banksters own and control these industries too
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  #742  
Old 08-18-2011, 01:43 PM
brenie brenie is offline
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Hi Mbrown.
'Real pollution is genetically modified organisms, nuclear fuels and weapons, inorganic chemicals and toxic substances in foods and vaccines (Big Pharma). You will find that the same banksters own and control these industries too'

Well said, that gets my vote!

Regards, Bren.
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  #743  
Old 08-19-2011, 01:10 AM
Wade Wade is offline
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Wow I want to make one.

I just read this whole thread and am going to try this when I get home in my shop. I can't express how grateful I am for all you're hours of research and expertise. Thanks
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  #744  
Old 08-19-2011, 03:20 AM
islander islander is offline
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To jetijs

Hi
About vapor cracking, why don't you insulate/heat at controled
temp your catalyst container? Then, at it output, Place a reflux condenser/separator.

Actually now, seems your catalyst opterates at low temp + is soaked by liquid reflux. It's not that you want. You want the catalyst do his job, then the eavier part left be returned to the boiler as reflux
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  #745  
Old 08-19-2011, 04:37 PM
gene gene gene gene is offline
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To Wade (is this you?)

Hi
Glad to see you here. Lots of good info here.
Gene
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  #746  
Old 08-22-2011, 10:31 AM
imakebiodiesel imakebiodiesel is offline
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Using one vessel for both catalyst and reflux is certainly a compromise for the reasons you have given. First the ideal temp for the catalyst is 220C and for reflux 150C. To over come this I have attached a band heater to the bottom of the vessel to maintain the correct catalyst temperature. I have fitted a water cooling coil to the outside of the top of the vessel to keep the exit temperature at 150C. This has worked quite well.
There remains the problem of liquid flowing downward over the catalyst, preventing the gas contacting the surface of the catalyst. I cant see a solution to this problem without having separate catalyst and reflux vessels and a separate return for the condensed liquid.
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  #747  
Old 08-22-2011, 11:07 AM
imakebiodiesel imakebiodiesel is offline
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I really dont want to get into a discussion of the reality or otherwise of climate change but I think it is worth examining the environmental impact of using waste plastic to make fuel. From a Carbon point of view there is not much difference between fuel from crude oil and waste plastic. One advantage would be that waste plastic is available everywhere and transport would be greatly reduced.
The main environmental advantage of fuel from plastic waste is that it would reduce the bulk of plastic being dumped into landfill and particularly the oceans.
The EU are presently considering proposals to pay some European fishing boats to stop catching fish and harvest waste plastic from the sea instead. If this plastic could be converted into fuel at the dockside or even on factory ships this could provide a real income, rather than a subsidy income, for a lot of people.
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  #748  
Old 08-22-2011, 02:11 PM
Alec Alec is offline
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Question Try to make Petrol

At first I only managed to make wax from plastic bags, then what looks and smell like petrol from plastic bottels (not pet). Can you make Wax,Diesel or Petrol from the same type of plastic depending only on temp.
Alec.
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  #749  
Old 08-24-2011, 03:51 PM
aigu aigu is offline
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I don't know if this link was posted before but it contains some info on the subject:

Alka Zadgaonkar-- Catalyic conversion of plastic to fuel
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  #750  
Old 08-25-2011, 12:56 PM
alexandrs35 alexandrs35 is offline
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very useful stuff

Gents, I have been reading this thread for some time now and i must say it only gets more and more interesting.

looks like using a catalyst is the way to go too many advantages over regular thermal cracking.

I'm currently reading the book somebody posted here earlyer and i found that ThermoFuel has a catalyst that does wonders: it cracks and bonds the random polymers so that the bell-curve distribution of the carbon chains peaks at C16.
Tutting heavy molecules is what all catalysts do, but bonding light ones into heavyer molecules is something i had not expected.

And here is the punch line...the catalist is NOT consumed NOR deactivated during the process. AND it's METAL (no wonder they use the exaust gasses from the furnace to keep the catalyst at 220C).
True...they occasionaly have to strip the catalytic assembly apart and clean the catalyst from fine carbon particles, but still...that's darn impressive.

Now...i wonder what the metal could be...
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