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  #31  
Old 12-29-2010, 10:46 PM
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Jetijs Jetijs is offline
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Hi bugler

The dimensions of the reactor container does not really matter, it is like boiling water, if sufficient heat is applied to the container, it will boil the water no matter how tall or wide the container is. I would suggest using something like a propane tank, like this:


The metal cage is not where the plastic goes, it just prevents the reactor tank touching the bricks and coils. The plastic goes in the modified propane tank and this tank then is fitted inside the cage. The cage is a bit smaller in siameter than the brick cylinder so that there is about 1-2cm of space between the cage and the bricks. In my case the internal diameter of the brick ring is around 34cm, but that will vary depending on the reactor container size. I would suggest first to get a 20-25 liter container, something with thicker walls would be preferable. then you measure its diameter and make a cage inside which the container fits nicely and firmly and then you measure the outer diameter of the cage, add several centimeters for the gap between cage and bricks and you will have the needed diameter for the brick ring. Then you just see what size bricks you have available at your local kiln shop and calcilate how much you will need for a ring and at what angle the sides need to be cut for a ring shape when assembled. At the moment I can't tahe more detailed pictures because the reactor is at my friends house and he lives several hunderd kilemeters from me.
I can't show you the insides of the condensing containers as they are welded shut and only have an inlet pipe and an outlet pipe, but there is nothing fancy in them, just a metal reservoir that cools the vapors coming out of the reactor, thats all. I will draw a better schematic later.
The shredded plastic looks like this:
http://www.emuprim.lv/jetijs/plog-co...lastic-002.jpg
but might also be more white or gray in color. The main thing is that the plastic should be polyethylene or polypropylene and NOT polyvinylchlordide (PVC).
I can't post more pictures of the lid, but I will make a 3d cad drawings tomorrow.
Hope this helps, will post more later
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  #32  
Old 12-30-2010, 11:15 AM
bugler bugler is offline
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Thank you very much.
I am beginning to get the picture.

I will wait for your post and then, sorry for that, I will continue the interrogation.

My biggest doubt now is the reactor chamber (which until now I didn't know even existed).
I would need a good drawing of that and explanations on how to do it.

Also about the hole made to accommodate the thermocouple and the coils.

Thanks.
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  #33  
Old 12-30-2010, 12:19 PM
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Hi! You mention a cost of 8$ per batch, but that depends on your local
energy cost. How many kwh does this represent?
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  #34  
Old 12-30-2010, 12:32 PM
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The costs that I mentioned include the consumed electric energy. For example, I can get shredded plastic from recycling plants for about 50$ a ton, that means about 5 cents per kilogram. Our device converts around 25 kg of plastic into 24 litrers of diesel in 4 hours, consuming around 3kw average power all the time, this means about 12kWh of power is used to get 24 liters of diesel. Our energy costs for a kilowathour is about 8 cents, that means that for 24 lieters of produced diesel we have used up 96 cents worth of electricity and 1,25$ worth of plastic. That is 2,21$ for 24 liters of diesel or 9.2 cents per liter. Do you know how much diesel costs now in our country? It costs around 1.35$ per liter. If you can make your own for only 9.2 cents a liter, then you are almost independant of oil companies, you are making your own energy and save a huge amount of money
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  #35  
Old 12-30-2010, 03:56 PM
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Hi all.
I made a 3d cad drawing of the reactor, lid, cage, brick ring and outer barrel assembly. You will need edrawings software to view the file, you can download it for free here:
eDrawings - 3D and 2D CAD Viewer and Publisher

After that you can view the assembly in 3d and make parts transparent to see what is behind them. Hope this will help to understand the design better. The hollow part between the brick rings and outer barren should be stuffed with glassfirber insulation. Here is the drawing file:

pyrolysis reactor assembly.EASM

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Last edited by Jetijs; 12-30-2010 at 03:58 PM.
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  #36  
Old 12-30-2010, 05:05 PM
mklimesh mklimesh is offline
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Ordered the controller and relays yesterday. Will build a 20 liter one first with 240V and about 2kw. We have a plastic recycling place in town I need to see if I can get shredded polypropylene from them. Thanks Jetijs for the information.

Mike Klimesh
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  #37  
Old 12-30-2010, 06:53 PM
petar113507 petar113507 is offline
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What kind of modifications to your design would be nescessary in order to make it burn the fuel it makes, for the heating process?

What kind of burner would you use for the fuel?

I am very interested in examining making it a self sustained reactor before building the electrical heating coils. I think it would be more easily up-scaled as a burner, not an electrical heater -- but I will need to discuss this more with friends first.

The most expensive part in the setup also seems to be the bricks. I am thinking making a small setup to make a proof-of-concept system, and then upscale it to whatever production ammount I need.
Where might I be able to find these bricks locally?
(I mean this as, what kind of shop might carry them? I can price check locally before trying online wholesales. )

Where I go to school, many people are interested in greener alternatives & recycling what we have already used. This kind of setup fits the bill perfectly for a project, and I am under the impression I can get quite a bit of support from this community -- even selling fuel locally to fund other energy research projects.

I'm sure other members of my area would also be very supportive of saving money on car fuel -- especially because it is a student-intated project.

Is there anyone in this thread who I might be able to contact to find out/troubleshoot legal implications of this kind of venture? I want to build it for myself first, and then potentially branch out into a business in the long-term.
I seem to have a hunch that I might need some kind of selling-license, or something of this nature -- but frankly, I don't have the foggiest idea about US legalities. If nothing else -- Could anyone point me towards the right kind of person, or professional who might know?


Side note, I am also thinking that the heating mechanism can be converted into a kiln for some transmutation experiments. I think this may only be applicable for an electrical heater. After seeing Bedini talk about transmutation on the EFTV #18 (See here), I am in need of a kiln. Does anyone know if the bricks are also use-able for a kiln?

I understand I am asking a lot that I don't know about. I would like to extend my gratitude to anyone who shares their time in answering.

Thanks again for sharing Jetijs.

==Romo
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  #38  
Old 12-30-2010, 08:09 PM
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minoly minoly is offline
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science fair project

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetijs View Post
Hi all.
I made a 3d cad drawing of the reactor, lid, cage, brick ring and outer barrel assembly. You will need edrawings software to view the file, you can download it for free here:
eDrawings - 3D and 2D CAD Viewer and Publisher

After that you can view the assembly in 3d and make parts transparent to see what is behind them. Hope this will help to understand the design better. The hollow part between the brick rings and outer barren should be stuffed with glassfirber insulation. Here is the drawing file:

pyrolysis reactor assembly.EASM

Ok, I've always preached to my son not to get distracted from the task at hand. now I strayed from the Farris Wheel thread and you have managed to completely distract me!
This is the simplest method we can find on this subject - AWESOME!
and thank you for sharing so freely.

My son is at the beginning of a Science fair project for his school. do you think this could be replicated on a small level using a pressure cooker modified w/ a steel/iron pipe into a class jar on an electric stove top?
is the bubbler at the end being used to capture excess fumes, or can it be eliminated?
we're getting ready to try it and are hoping for any tips/insight you might be willing to hand out for our mini experiment.
Thanks,
P'n'S
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  #39  
Old 12-30-2010, 08:20 PM
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Hi Romo.
For the heating using the produced fuel I was thinking of using a waste oil burner as I already have tested the fuel from old rubber on such a burner and it works great. I mean something like this:
Clave waste vegetable oil pump burner furnace boiler - eBay (item 150532858576 end time Jan-10-11 12:37:21 PST)

This guy has a video on his ebay listing. I am not sure yet how I would control the temperature, but it shouldn't be too hard. Is such a system is used the good thing is that you can use ordinary fire bricks for insulation instead of the aluminum oxide ones which cost about 3.50$ a piece. They are good for electric heater because it is very easy to cut slots in them for the coils, but if an oil burner is used, there is no need for slots.
The aluminum oxide bricks should be available in any kiln supply company, if not, there are some online shops that sell them. These aluminum oxide bricks can handle temperatures up to 2000 degree celsius, and they are widely used for ceramic glazing kilns and glass melting kilns
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  #40  
Old 12-30-2010, 09:57 PM
bugler bugler is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetijs View Post
I have downloaded the eviewer and I will try to make layers transparent (no success so far with that).

So you take one of these tanks, then cut the upper part, then weld the lower part of the lid, make the groove the upper part of the lid with its groove and that is it?

Thanks for your help.
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  #41  
Old 12-30-2010, 10:08 PM
petersone petersone is offline
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Hi Jetijs
I like the numbers,less than a $ per L,here in UK diesel is about 1.25 per L.
But,if the diesel is used in a car,the tax still has to be payed,as most of the 1.25 is tax there is not a lot to gain,if it is used as heating oil,the tax is still payable,but at a lower rate,the buggers have got us always!!
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  #42  
Old 12-30-2010, 10:14 PM
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Hi minoly

Have a look at this page:
Directory: Blest Machine recycles plastic back into oil - PESWiki
It is about Japanese commercial devices. But those cost so much that almost no one considers using this tech at home. Japanese put all kind of LCD's, sophisticated power management systems and monitoring devices in their units that really does nothing except increase the price. This is easy, cheap and almost anyone can build one without taking out a second mortgage on his house The way we do this is not the only way nor the best, after you know the process, there is lots and lots of room for improvements.

You could build a small table top device for around 300-500$ maybe even less. But I wouldn't use a pressure cooker as they have a heat resistant rubber seal around the lid, it is good for food cooking temperatures, but wont hold 400 degrees celsius, it will melt and leak. Also you need a custom heating element, because ordinary heating coils that are used in water boilers, tea pots or electric stoves wont last long, because of their thin resistance wire. You need nichrome or kanthal resistance wire with diameter around 1.5mm, this will do well. The seal between the reactor and the lid is very important, it must be hermetic and heat resistant, we have tried many ways before and no seal material lasted long, all eventually fail and let the hot plastic vapor seep out, this is not acceptable. We tried heat resistant silicon for use on chimneys and other commercial stuff, not good enough. Eventually we found that the thing that works best is conical groove and a wedge that fits inside that groove around the lid, like you can see in the CAD drawing. When the lid is bolted to the reactor chamber, the fit is airtight and hermetical. The pressures in the system are very low, only such to be sufficient to bubble through the bubbler, this makes it very much safer than commercial flash pyrolysis devices that are also very expensive and affordable only by large companies.

In our case the bubbler at the end is just as a flashback arrester that prevents fire going into the reactor, but the gas really burns so slow, that it is not really needed, but better to leave it in, safety is never too much. Also the bubbler can be used to eliminate the need of condensing tanks, because the vapors cool sufficiently when bubbling through the water to turn into liquid fuel, that can the be poured off as it does not dissolve in water but floats above it. The produced gas should be burned or vented outside.
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  #43  
Old 12-30-2010, 10:21 PM
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Hi Peter.
No one has to know what I do in my back yard and how I power my lawnmower, garden tractor or heating stove. I make my own energy, why should I pay tax for it if I am not selling it? They can all go *&^&%^#. Also as far as I know in Europe the diesel that is used for heating is color marked by a special chemical and they can only fine you if they find out that you are driving with it, but only if they see the colored fuel in your gas tank. If you make your own fuel, there wont be any color chemical in it

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Hi Jetijs
I like the numbers,less than a $ per L,here in UK diesel is about 1.25 per L.
But,if the diesel is used in a car,the tax still has to be payed,as most of the 1.25 is tax there is not a lot to gain,if it is used as heating oil,the tax is still payable,but at a lower rate,the buggers have got us always!!
peter
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  #44  
Old 12-30-2010, 10:32 PM
petersone petersone is offline
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Hi Jetijs
I'm with you on all of that,just for the record,red diesel is used in farm machinery,heating oil,which I use,is not coloured,but nearly a 1 per L,if you are found to be using untaxed fuel in anything the penalties are breath taking!!!
peter
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  #45  
Old 12-30-2010, 10:49 PM
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I did not know that. But that won't stop me. I think it only needs a precedent of someone being fined and bring that case to court, I doubt it is constitutional to be fined because you use fuel you made yourself. Another story if that fuel is contraband or illegally obtained, but they still have to prove that. Many people make bio diesel from raps seed or other oils, what about them? Are they also forbidden to use that?
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  #46  
Old 12-30-2010, 11:01 PM
petersone petersone is offline
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I don't know about your country,but here in UK using untaxed fuel on the road is mega trouble,if you are found out,even if you make it your self,using it for heating or in the lawn mower is not so bad,but still trouble,this country is tax mad,we lost America because of tax,they haven't learnt anything,even after 200 years,they take 50% of you when you are alive,and the other 50% when you die.It's no better than the USSR.
peter
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  #47  
Old 12-30-2010, 11:10 PM
brenie brenie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petersone View Post
Hi Jetijs
I like the numbers,less than a $ per L,here in UK diesel is about 1.25 per L.
But,if the diesel is used in a car,the tax still has to be payed,as most of the 1.25 is tax there is not a lot to gain,if it is used as heating oil,the tax is still payable,but at a lower rate,the buggers have got us always!!
peter
Hi Pete, just sent you a private message, check your box. Is'nt it great having people like Jetijs' around ready to share their time and work with us.

Regards Bren.
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  #48  
Old 12-30-2010, 11:22 PM
petersone petersone is offline
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Hi Bren
Thanks for that,they have let up a bit,I use about double the 2500 L so not much help me,but 3 cheers for Jetijs,good on him!!!
peter
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  #49  
Old 12-30-2010, 11:29 PM
brenie brenie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetijs View Post
The costs that I mentioned include the consumed electric energy. For example, I can get shredded plastic from recycling plants for about 50$ a ton, that means about 5 cents per kilogram. Our device converts around 25 kg of plastic into 24 litrers of diesel in 4 hours, consuming around 3kw average power all the time, this means about 12kWh of power is used to get 24 liters of diesel. Our energy costs for a kilowathour is about 8 cents, that means that for 24 lieters of produced diesel we have used up 96 cents worth of electricity and 1,25$ worth of plastic. That is 2,21$ for 24 liters of diesel or 9.2 cents per liter. Do you know how much diesel costs now in our country? It costs around 1.35$ per liter. If you can make your own for only 9.2 cents a liter, then you are almost independant of oil companies, you are making your own energy and save a huge amount of money
Hi Jetijs, It costs around 1.35$ per liter. You don't say ? Well here in uk that ==$1.95. Love your info: it sure has me glued too the comp.

Regards, Bren.
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Old 12-30-2010, 11:49 PM
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LOL Bren
The price difference for diesel in UK and Latvia is about 31%. But the thing is that the average wages here is 3-4 times smaller than those in UK. Makes you think Will have to do something about that
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  #51  
Old 12-31-2010, 12:10 AM
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Originally Posted by mklimesh View Post
Ordered the controller and relays yesterday. Will build a 20 liter one first with 240V and about 2kw. We have a plastic recycling place in town I need to see if I can get shredded polypropylene from them. Thanks Jetijs for the information.

Mike Klimesh
Great to hear Mike, let me know how it turns out and if you need any additional info
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  #52  
Old 12-31-2010, 08:07 AM
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Regarding the heating of the diesel to get rid of the 5-10% of gasoline is a total waste.

Wouldn't it be a way to separate them so the gasoline can be used?
Besides heating costs money so the diesel would be more expensive at the end.

Jetijs have you used the diesel in a car?
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  #53  
Old 12-31-2010, 09:03 AM
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Could you show us somehow how you make the lower and upper lid and how you cut the tank in order to weld the lower lid.

Thanks.
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  #54  
Old 12-31-2010, 03:49 PM
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Jetijs,

You mention the use of PE and PP plastics. Can you mix them or should they be converted separately? Also, when looking into purchasing plastic scraps I found they differentiate between HDPE (bottles/containers) and LDPE (films/bags). Is there any problem mixing these two varieties of PE when cooking down a batch?

On a personal note, you did an awesome job of refining your tire cooker into the current version. It looks to be very well done. The only thing I might do differently would be to add a cooling coil similar to those used in alcohol stills that moonshiners use to better cool the vapors before they can reach the bubbler. Great job and thank you for sharing it.
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Old 12-31-2010, 11:59 PM
avro539 avro539 is offline
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Powering a 10-KVA diesel generator at home

Hi..You are quoting cost of electricity ... KWH..... to run at "X" amount per liter...here in Australia I pay 19c a KWH and it goes up 16% from today 1/1/2011 ...My aim will be to run a 10 KVA diesel generator...to convert plastic to fuel and have enough power to run household power requirements....We have be forced to accept smart meters in the near future...and the power supply company's will change the tariff when it suits them and can charge up to 38c a KWH at what they call their peak periods...I want to be set setup so I can isolate from the mains when these periods are in force...These peak periods would be at least 4 hrs ..The generator would be producing power to convert plastic and run the household at the same time....even it cost's 40c a liter its 1/4 of the diesel price here...and is still a viable proposition...the converted diesel would be making replacement fuel and I would be powering the household free...hope this makes sense.......Avro
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Old 01-01-2011, 04:38 AM
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This is starting to really remind me of that news broadcast of the company that is doing something very similar, on a larger scale. I think they are using superheated water (under pressure) as a solvent. I think they are combusting their end product with HHO to clean up the emissions, for their heat source. Funny, I remember one of my construction foremen saying when he tossed a plastic milk jug in the garbage (we can't even recycle them here, still!) "One day we'll be digging these back up for fuel. This is a battery. A storage of energy. Just sitting underground, waiting for re-use." On a tangent, it may be possible to use a fresnel lense to focus photon energy on a stainless steel capsule that would melt salt to about 595 degrees farenheit, which would flow by gravity into a radiator coil at the base of the reactor. As the molten salt returned to solid it would then be raised by a corkscrew style turnstile to physically lift it back to the height of the capsule where it would tumble in to repeat the cycle. As this entire process is heat laden, and heat "losing"... it could all be contained in a solar room, that during winter (itself) collected heat. As the process is perpetually losing heat to it's environment, the heat of the reactor, the capsule, and even a genset (if a diesel genset was then creating electricty) - all this heat should be recycled with a Mistubishi (or the like) variable speed compressor heat pump, to be sent into the home for heat. A large underground heat "sink" could also be established into the equation. All tangents, but food for thought.
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  #57  
Old 01-01-2011, 04:07 PM
redrichie redrichie is offline
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I have been thinking about this topic since it was posted. The more I think about it the more it pisses me off. Like so man other topics that show real potential. Here is a technology that shows, yet again, that there are ways to do things to really help. But the GOVERNMENTS wont allow it. WTF!!??

In the states if a semi is found using the "off-road diesel" fuel they will be fined. Harshly. really? because the gov didnt get their piece. This like other valid technologies techs should be fully utilized. If our govs were really concerned with global warming and a green movement they would be giving grants to some of these people. Not fining those that use them. Why dont every state building in America have Solar cells on their roofs? At least a few doing something. Especially if the Govs are really that interested in global warming. They should actually be doing something!! not penalizing the intelligent and industrious.
I had a discussion with a friend. If tomorrow i invented a device that sat on my kitchen table and ran perpetually and produced copious amounts of energy and powered my house. I dont think the masses would even raise an eyebrow. The sheeple have been brain washed into thinking it takes large corporation to make energy. The same large corps that are constantly villanized. The gov would try to discredit you or shut you down if you succeeded in doing any of it. Why? Because they cant tax it. They cant get their grubby greedy fingers in it and tie it up in beurocratic BS and red tape.
I am sick of them (the very few) telling us (the very many) what we can and cant do. Most of the world is a "free" place to live. I can understand some safety concerns. But really if Jetjis wishes to make his own energy and blows himself up (not that you will Jet) then that is his problem. It is his CHOICE.
Keep up the good work. EVERYONE. Show them that we are the ones that make the world go round. We need and deserve these techs. Not to be taxed to death for using them. Happy new year. Sorry to take this thread away from it focus. This is a great technology that Jet and his friend have devised. Congrats
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Old 01-01-2011, 06:55 PM
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Jetijs Jetijs is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bugler View Post
Regarding the heating of the diesel to get rid of the 5-10% of gasoline is a total waste.

Wouldn't it be a way to separate them so the gasoline can be used?
Besides heating costs money so the diesel would be more expensive at the end.

Jetijs have you used the diesel in a car?
Bugler, after you already have the first batch of fuel, the separation process by refraction is not that costly at all, it goes much faster than making the fuel in the first place, and you don't waste the gasoline, you just separate it thermaly as it turns into vapor at lower temperatures than diesel. This is only the basic model I am introducing you with, much more sufisticated models can be build with the posibility to separate gasoline from diesel directly in the pyrolysis process, that means no additional costs. You just need to have two condensing chambers heated to needed temperatures, one will be held at temperatures where diesel turns to liquid and other will be at lower temperatures where gasoline turns to liquid.

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Could you show us somehow how you make the lower and upper lid and how you cut the tank in order to weld the lower lid.

Thanks.
You can use that cad drawing and make parts transparent and see each part closely. It really does not matter how the lip is attached to the chamber, as long as it is hermetic. You just go to a local metalworks shop and tell them what you want and they will know how to manage that. I ordered the lip from a metalshop, they used lathe to machine it, then I used a grinder and cut off the upper part of the propane tank so that the lip sits on it nicely and welded it on. Also the lid was machined in that machine shop using lathe. Lathe is the only way to make those conical grooves in the lip and lid for best seal.

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Originally Posted by everwiser View Post
Jetijs,

You mention the use of PE and PP plastics. Can you mix them or should they be converted separately? Also, when looking into purchasing plastic scraps I found they differentiate between HDPE (bottles/containers) and LDPE (films/bags). Is there any problem mixing these two varieties of PE when cooking down a batch?

On a personal note, you did an awesome job of refining your tire cooker into the current version. It looks to be very well done. The only thing I might do differently would be to add a cooling coil similar to those used in alcohol stills that moonshiners use to better cool the vapors before they can reach the bubbler. Great job and thank you for sharing it.
HDPE and LDPE are basically polyethylene, not much difference between them in pyrolysis process, both work fine and can be mixed between each other and polypropylene. It is just that PE tends to create fuel that solidifies into kinda parafin liek substance when cooled doen to about 20 degrees celsius. It still works fine as a fuel if heated up a bit. Might be that if the temperatures are right, there won't be any problems with parafin.


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Originally Posted by avro539 View Post
Hi..You are quoting cost of electricity ... KWH..... to run at "X" amount per liter...here in Australia I pay 19c a KWH and it goes up 16% from today 1/1/2011 ...My aim will be to run a 10 KVA diesel generator...to convert plastic to fuel and have enough power to run household power requirements....We have be forced to accept smart meters in the near future...and the power supply company's will change the tariff when it suits them and can charge up to 38c a KWH at what they call their peak periods...I want to be set setup so I can isolate from the mains when these periods are in force...These peak periods would be at least 4 hrs ..The generator would be producing power to convert plastic and run the household at the same time....even it cost's 40c a liter its 1/4 of the diesel price here...and is still a viable proposition...the converted diesel would be making replacement fuel and I would be powering the household free...hope this makes sense.......Avro
That is why our next machine will be heated using a diesel burner, there will be no need for electricity anymore
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Old 01-01-2011, 07:41 PM
bugler bugler is offline
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Jetijs thanks again for your information sharing. I know I am asking like there is no tomorrow.

Could you elaborate on how you would make the condensers so you have diesel and gasoline separated when they are being created?

Let's say that you want to cancel electricity and gas in your home. How would you use the diesel to have electricity, warm your house and your water?

Could the vegetable oil pump burner be also used to burn HHO (I am thinking in having a HHO machine some day).

Thanks. You are very generous helping those like me without experience at all.
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Old 01-01-2011, 09:55 PM
everwiser everwiser is offline
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I thought of one more question, Jetijs. How difficult is it to clean out the leftover charcoal/byproducts? Do they have a tendency to stick to your container or does it come out fairly easily? I'm just wondering if there needs to be some kind of interior coating or alternate way to break the char away from the cylinder walls. Thank you for any information.
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