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  #331  
Old 05-08-2011, 09:56 PM
boywonder boywonder is offline
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Jetijs do you think using engine exhaust gas as a heat source for the propane/reactor tank would work? By placing the reactor into a larger tank that has exhaust gas passed through it...
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  #332  
Old 05-09-2011, 01:39 AM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetijs View Post
that is not air, those bubbles are formed by overheated plastic which forms gasses and vapors.
I stand corrected
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  #333  
Old 05-09-2011, 03:00 AM
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mina mina is offline
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This is great work and will help not only to eleminate plastic waste, but it will also cut down on the cost of vehicle fuel. A burner powered by its own fuel will be the greatest improvement as the cost of running the system will only be that of plastic waste.

I was just wondering why you did not burn off the waste gasses in a burner underneath the main reactor chamber so you could harvest some of the BTUs?

Also, are normal drinking water bottles and 2 liter Pepsi bottles useable?
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  #334  
Old 05-09-2011, 09:24 AM
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Jetijs Jetijs is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boywonder View Post
Jetijs do you think using engine exhaust gas as a heat source for the propane/reactor tank would work? By placing the reactor into a larger tank that has exhaust gas passed through it...
This should be doable, exhaust gasses have more than enough heat to do this, it is just a technical issue and I haven't thought about that much.
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  #335  
Old 05-09-2011, 09:26 AM
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Jetijs Jetijs is offline
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Originally Posted by mina View Post
I was just wondering why you did not burn off the waste gasses in a burner underneath the main reactor chamber so you could harvest some of the BTUs?

Also, are normal drinking water bottles and 2 liter Pepsi bottles useable?
The current setup is heated with electricity, there are resistance wire coils imbeded in white aluminum oxide bricks around the reactor. There is no easy way to put the flame there also, it would just mess everything up. You need a different design for that.
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  #336  
Old 05-09-2011, 11:03 AM
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hurkatm hurkatm is offline
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Self sustained Pyrolysis design.

Dear Friends
It will be of great use if we could use flue gases to heat reactor chamber and produce Diesel.
I have designed the simple sketch, I am planning to implement it.
Hope so this should work.
Please comment if there is any fault.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Self Pyrolysis Design Concept.JPG (65.3 KB, 878 views)
File Type: jpg Compomenet Details.JPG (54.0 KB, 630 views)
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  #337  
Old 05-09-2011, 11:11 AM
otpadnoulje otpadnoulje is offline
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Dear Jetijs!

I have a problem. I would like to make diesel set up. What will be better? Waste oil to diesel or , waste plastic to diesel. I have seen this machine. YouTube - Homemade Diesel

What is your expirience with black oil?

Please , help me !

Thanks!
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  #338  
Old 05-09-2011, 11:35 AM
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Jetijs Jetijs is offline
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It is easier and faster to use waste motor oil to get diesel. The process is the same, the temperatures also, but it is way faster and more efficient than whem plastics are used as source. So it all depends on what resources you have available, but then again, the setup is the same, no mater what your source is.
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  #339  
Old 05-09-2011, 01:30 PM
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hurkatm hurkatm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetijs View Post
Hi minoly

Have a look at this page:
Directory: Blest Machine recycles plastic back into oil - PESWiki
It is about Japanese commercial devices. But those cost so much that almost no one considers using this tech at home. Japanese put all kind of LCD's, sophisticated power management systems and monitoring devices in their units that really does nothing except increase the price. This is easy, cheap and almost anyone can build one without taking out a second mortgage on his house The way we do this is not the only way nor the best, after you know the process, there is lots and lots of room for improvements.

You could build a small table top device for around 300-500$ maybe even less. But I wouldn't use a pressure cooker as they have a heat resistant rubber seal around the lid, it is good for food cooking temperatures, but wont hold 400 degrees celsius, it will melt and leak. Also you need a custom heating element, because ordinary heating coils that are used in water boilers, tea pots or electric stoves wont last long, because of their thin resistance wire. You need nichrome or kanthal resistance wire with diameter around 1.5mm, this will do well. The seal between the reactor and the lid is very important, it must be hermetic and heat resistant, we have tried many ways before and no seal material lasted long, all eventually fail and let the hot plastic vapor seep out, this is not acceptable. We tried heat resistant silicon for use on chimneys and other commercial stuff, not good enough. Eventually we found that the thing that works best is conical groove and a wedge that fits inside that groove around the lid, like you can see in the CAD drawing. When the lid is bolted to the reactor chamber, the fit is airtight and hermetical. The pressures in the system are very low, only such to be sufficient to bubble through the bubbler, this makes it very much safer than commercial flash pyrolysis devices that are also very expensive and affordable only by large companies.

In our case the bubbler at the end is just as a flashback arrester that prevents fire going into the reactor, but the gas really burns so slow, that it is not really needed, but better to leave it in, safety is never too much. Also the bubbler can be used to eliminate the need of condensing tanks, because the vapors cool sufficiently when bubbling through the water to turn into liquid fuel, that can the be poured off as it does not dissolve in water but floats above it. The produced gas should be burned or vented outside.
Dear Jetijs
First of all I would like to thank you for sharing this great thecnical know how of making diesel from waste plastic.
I hop you have gone through my previous post to make this self sufficient unit.
I have small doubt, you said you tried withh all kinds of sealing materials but the performance was not as desired and finally you made a "V" shape grove for sealing. I want to know what is the depth of grove and any kind of sealing material is also used with grove.
Once again thanks for your efforts and help.
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  #340  
Old 05-09-2011, 02:46 PM
dutchdivco dutchdivco is offline
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Gee, Jetsis

I'm so grateful to you for sharing this information! Now, I'm too lazy to read back thru the old posts, on this thread, so I want YOU to take time away from working on this project, to answer my questions, which I could easily find the answers to, simply by reading thru the earlier posts.

Sorry if this seems a little harsh, but this is the umpteenth time we have seen posts like this, and its getting really OLD!Jim
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  #341  
Old 05-10-2011, 07:55 AM
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hurkatm hurkatm is offline
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Leakage

Dear Jetijs,
Please reply to my earlier mail.
Also I Need your guidence to make one reactor. Please can you post the actual dimensions of your project. as what ever literature I have read till now on Pyrolysis conclude that Temperature and Residance Time are two inportant factor which decide tha Quality and Quantity of Diesel and other products that are produced.
Also I have a doubt that What will happen if there is a leakage and Air/Oxygen enters inside the the Reactor at say peak period i.e. at about 400 deg. will it turn into explosion (Fire) as flamable gases will get oxygen or just that batch will be failed and plastic will turn into solid lump.
Thanks in advance for your quick reply.
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  #342  
Old 05-10-2011, 10:03 AM
islander islander is offline
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hello Jetijs

I am on the waste motor oil set up. I discovered cracking by myself : I was trying to distillate some motor oil from my diesel VW, And I got a fraction of gasoline ???? So I did dig a lot in the net for years...

Now I am on my second set up, And I've got a problem : this set up only produce gaz. yes, I get gaz like methane etc, from waste motor oil.

I even don't get a drop of liquid. Gaz, gaz, plenty of it.

Maybe I could partly condense it into a liquid, should not be so difficult.

It was not my intention, As my need is producing clean diesel for my car.


my set up is like this :


better start by the end to explain:
at the end of the chain, is a gaz injector into the furnace. the gaz comes from a refrigerator motor output, that sucks on the input vacuum in a liquid recovery tank for diesel (or product done). the input of recovery tank is linked after 10 meter long pipe, to the gaseous output of the reactor vessel.

the distance is for safety, also the pipe is buried in earth, so it's discreet, can cool the exess heat, and gives me a chance in case of fire/explosion issue.

the reactor is a very small tank (about 7 liter) made of steel, but very well insulated, heated by a burner under it.

The input of waste oil is done using an aircond electric valve, actuated by a timer : opening the valve into the cracking vessel sucks the waste oil in.

I tried 2 temperatures : 300C and 700C

at 300C I first have a little something coming out, but soon depleted. So impossible to use.

370C not tried (malfunction in level device) but looks like cracking starts at 400 and over, higher temp the quicker.

at 700C the pyrolisis cracking works very well, but my set up makes only gaz. real gaz, not vapours from a liquid.


I read somewhere "the quicker the cracking is done, the less carbon deposit, that's why thermolysis systems use about 700C, to get quick job done and less deposit"

on the other hand I read "waste motor oil cracking has to be done without any catalyst (that would be quicky poisonned anyway) but at a low temperature, about 370C, this way avoid any carbon deposit (coking)


this gaz problem looks very strange to me ! my former set up was smaller volume about 2.5liter and almost not insulated (on the same furnace) it worked better when getting red hot (nearly 650-700C)
it produced a kind of black dirty diesel.

what it the difference between the 2 ?

insulation on top cracking vessel (before haven't)
and heated volume (this one way bigger)

I had the idea probably hydrocarbons in vapours state in the vessel will continue to decompose into gases; the longuer they are exposed to the high temperatures, the more chances they have to be broken down into smaller molecules, the smaller ones are the gazes.

yesterday I did cut a part of my reactor. And now I still have a lot of gaz, but I also get a little of gasoline.

coke production is a problem in a set up like this. that is the reason I wanted to have more room inside the cracking vessel.

I can't fill a lot the cracking vessel when it is hot at 700C temp : output production (actually in terms of gaseous form) would be enormous.

I'll try to post picture later.

I am happy with my vacuum system, when starting the fire, I also start the vaccum pump. The residual gaz, is then burned and let the pot get hot quicker, in the meantime, it lets me check if my system have some leak (vacuum meter would not go down) and it also removes the risk from explosion of cracking vessel.

explosion of cracking vessel was the first of my thoughts, as heating air+gaz vapours at the temp of ignition (600 and up) are the condition of use of a diesel motor (heat+air+gaz = boom)

it is only a matter of chance if it don't happen (air+vapour mix have to match the combustion ratio at the kboom temp) so I don't want to try it.
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  #343  
Old 05-10-2011, 10:11 AM
islander islander is offline
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patent about converting waste motor oil into diesel

low temp process without catalyst

Process for converting waste motor oil to diesel fuel - US Patent 5885444 Description


(hard to read for me, I'm not english native language) it seems to me the reason they have no coke in reactor is they don't completely crack the waste oil ?
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  #344  
Old 05-10-2011, 03:02 PM
otpadnoulje otpadnoulje is offline
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Islander, your working temperature is tooooo heigh. It should be under 400c.

As higher temperature as much coke and more uncondensable gaz. The best way is 360 - 370 c.

After all you will need additive.
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  #345  
Old 05-10-2011, 05:53 PM
islander islander is offline
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yes I think you are right.

but it is also dependent of the shape of the reactor. Because yesterday, even at 400 C only gases, even lower temp. The only change was the quantity of gaz.

Today evening I changed something, remove some insulation on top of the reactor/boiler.

And I got liquid !

not enough, only 2 liters after 2 hours of operation.

I did use the temp between 380 and 450C

But I got a problem, as it was not possible to dry out the remaining oil in the reactor. It stopped produce liquid and started to produce more gases at 450C.

even if I was distilling with a vacuum quite good (maybe 1/2 atmosphere)

It was easy to dry it, just let the temp go over but I would get only gaz, to my belief.

I think my set up don't work as it should.


how to make it not give me this carbon dust inside, how to produce more, how to crack all, or nearly all the WMO...


What kind of additive do you speak of ? Is it the additive against oxydation, it was related in some post here ?


Does anyone understand something on this set up ??
YouTube - Homemade Diesel

I found very interesting information, seems very related to waste oil cracking.
http://www.coking.com/DECOKTUT.pdf

it seems very needed to use a coker, my first set up was foul of coke after little production ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by otpadnoulje View Post
Islander, your working temperature is tooooo heigh. It should be under 400c.

As higher temperature as much coke and more uncondensable gaz. The best way is 360 - 370 c.

After all you will need additive.
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  #346  
Old 05-10-2011, 07:51 PM
dushkriv dushkriv is offline
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plastic to fuel process small plant design needed

HI Thks for quick reply

Now i have learned very much from your articles you have posted and i m trying to make diesel from waste plastic in my workshop with the help of my friends. the only thing i want 2 know that after collection the liquid fuel from plastic it need any further process before it used in diesel engine if yes the what is the process

and exactly what temprature we needed for this process to convert plastic into vapours and how to cool this vapour and convert into liquid form.

I am verymuch intrested in this process as i have 20000 kg of plastic every year to dispose and its very good process to dispose it without any reaction of hazard gases

it will be good for me if you provide a small design for this process with consulting with you friends which is very helpfull for me
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  #347  
Old 05-10-2011, 08:29 PM
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Jetijs Jetijs is offline
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To all new posters.
PLEASE read this thred through, all the posts I mean. Most of your questions are already answered. I hate to repeat myself.
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  #348  
Old 05-10-2011, 10:39 PM
dutchdivco dutchdivco is offline
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Yes, jetsis

That was the point of my earlier post.I used sarcasm, which is a mistake, particularly when dealing with people for whom english is not their first language.So let me repeat;

If You are new to this thread, and have questions, go back to the first post, on page 1, that started this thread, and READ EVERY POST, RIGHT UP TO THE LAST ONE. Every question you have is most likely answered.Jim
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  #349  
Old 05-11-2011, 04:08 AM
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Hi Jetijs

I started from page 1

Thank you for letting us know about your experience, we are lucky here enough in fact !

I have a question for you :

why don't you use insulation on the top of your plastic processor ?

you are very wise, and you would not let such a convector uncovered as you pay the electricity bill, if had no reason for that.

Did you got the same problem than me, I mean if the top is kept too hot, it seems to decompose too much ?
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  #350  
Old 05-11-2011, 09:20 AM
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Jetijs Jetijs is offline
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Hi Islander.
This setup is just for research and to find out the needed temperatures and other stuff. Based on the info gotten from this device, we will build the next one. The top part was covered with insulation to see if it makes any difference, and with this setup it does not. The efficiency stays the same. In colder weather the insulation might help. That is why we dont use it, also it allows you to see ehat is going on with the lid, if the seal is thight and if there is any fuelo uzing out from the seal, joints or anywhere else
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  #351  
Old 05-11-2011, 01:38 PM
otpadnoulje otpadnoulje is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by islander View Post



Today evening I changed something, remove some insulation on top of the reactor/boiler.

And I got liquid !
There is a point. You removed some insulation, temperature go down.
Temperatura is most important. 360 - 370 c. Amen!
If you use vacuum pump the temperature could be about 300 c.
Ofcourse that temperature will not crack big molecule of oil, but you will get some more energy. Uncracked "diesel" distilled at 300 c wiht help of vacuum pump gives you 10 % more power. Viscosity will be still some heigher, but who care, there is sommer. No problem start up.

Hope, you have good themperature controler.
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  #352  
Old 05-11-2011, 01:39 PM
otpadnoulje otpadnoulje is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by islander View Post



Today evening I changed something, remove some insulation on top of the reactor/boiler.

And I got liquid !
There is a point. You removed some insulation, temperature went down.
Temperatura is most important. 360 - 370 c. Amen!
If you use vacuum pump the temperature could be about 300 c.
Ofcourse that temperature will not crack big molecule of oil, but you will get some more energy. Uncracked "diesel" distilled at 300 c wiht help of vacuum pump gives you 10 % more power. Viscosity will be still some heigher, but who care, there is sommer. No problem start up.

Hope, you have good themperature controler.
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  #353  
Old 05-11-2011, 03:42 PM
islander islander is offline
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thanks for reply Jetijs.

otpadnoulje : yes my controller works well. In fact for the moment I use it only as a thermometer, and I control the heat myself for the moment.

in fact the temperature is not exactly affected, it is more the distribution of temperature that is different.

before with fully insulated, the whole reactor was heated at same temp (proof is given when the reactor turn red at 700C, and it was totally red at the same red colour.

now, with a big opening on the top and some insulation removed, the heat is more at the lower part, until about half volume of the tank.

I mention it : with the fully insulated, even at 400C, I had only gaz, and even lower the same.

To my opinion, the gaz would continue cracking in the volume. why a liquid can get cracked but a vapour would not ? So to my opinion, the vapours have to be removed as quick as possible from the volume, once they have merged from the liquid. The more free volume you have in the reactor, the more the vapours are likely to be cracked again.

My belief was if I use vacuum as I do, the vapour would be quicker removed from the hot vessel. but seems it changes nothing.

at http://www.coking.com/DECOKTUT.pdf

they explain the thermolysis (cracking) of heavy oil. it seems to me the job should be very similar to process wmo ?

they use forced pipes with a quick heavy oil speed at the heater; then it ispassed thru a coker where it can deposit the coke it have to. I think may be I would have to do the same, maybe. because from that I have seen in my reactor, really I've got coking !


I had a 33mm pipe long one meter welded on the side of reactor, in the purpose to put a floating sensor in a cool zone, to manage the wmo input.

yesterday I had some condensation in this area, when I opened it I found a green-yellow oil very clean looking.

Why I got clean oil there, but at my output, the oil is very contaminated by carbon dust.

I build today a simple condensation "tower" to screw at this area. I will put new oil as this one don't want produce more cracked oil, and 'll see If I get an output there.

seems to me I can crack only 20-25% of the wmo into diesel only. the part left would give only gaz and coke and need more temp to process it.

Ok my setup is faulty.
(to my actual view)
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  #354  
Old 05-11-2011, 03:45 PM
islander islander is offline
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otpadnoulje : at 300C, with a quite good vacuum, lets say half athmosphere, with a new wmo, I get a little something a few minutes, that's all !!!
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  #355  
Old 05-11-2011, 04:06 PM
dutchdivco dutchdivco is offline
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Islander

In reading your posts, i don't see where you've got a condenser in your set-up? Maybe I'm missing it, but that may be why you get nothing but gaseous vapor; you need to run that vapor thru a condeser; think car radiator or better yet an air condiotioning condenser. As the vapor cools, the liquid diesel fuel will condense out of it.Then will probably need a centrifuge to clean it up. There are pictures and a description of the centrifuge in this thread.I am familiar from this, from other forums on WVO and Biodiesel, but I think some reading on this forum might either have missed or not understood this.A centrifuge 'filter' out any solids in the oil. Should probably be done BEFORE trying to run used motor oil thru a reactor, and after diesel product has been made by reactor? Jim
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  #356  
Old 05-11-2011, 05:14 PM
islander islander is offline
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I have a long condenser. it is the 10 meter 12mm pipe that connects the reactor top to the liquid collection tank. it works well, but it works with the vacuum pump. seems to work very well to my point of view.

it also let me to evaluate the quantity of liquid I get, as more long it's hot, the more liquid production I get.

If have gaz only, the condenser stay cool.

Centrifuge, I have one. Build from bowl and motor purchased with the maker itself, simple centrifuge.

it's a good and necessary tool, But It won't remove everything at all. I think I should not think simply take the diesel as it comes & centrifuge it. Much better get it clean from the condensing !!! if others can do it, why not me !!

use the centrifuge before cracking : I beleive the wmo don't pollute the thing at all. dirt from wmo will be kept in the coke. that happens is we have carbon fumes going out from the boiling pot. (gaz+gaseous liquids fuels+carbon dust)

it leaves the pot at a dry state. but it contaminates the condenser. If you remove it at a dry (hot) area with an electrofilter as example, you could get rid of it. but maybe a good way could be having a first condenser at high temp for the heavy oils, the carbon dust would be stuck in it, syphoon shape, and the second condenser for diesel would be clean.

It is my opinion, but I really wonder why the petroleum set up don't seem to have this problem. but the problem should happen even at the stage of first level petrol distilling. The petroleum industry speaks about a foam formed at the top of the boiling area in the coker drum ??? they use chemicals to keep it down

I personally tried to distill diesel in the past, first I got easily a light fraction looking pure white just like kerosene, but no smell, and second it was hard and the product had a lot of carbon dust and smelled bad.
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  #357  
Old 05-11-2011, 07:06 PM
dutchdivco dutchdivco is offline
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O.k

Maybe I'm not understanding you, correctly.I thought what you were calling the condeser pipe was the pipe that is underground.So, I'm confused. Any chance you could post pictures or diagrams of your set-up.
I, too, am trying to decide whether to go with waste oil, plastic, or a system that could do either.;-) Jim
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  #358  
Old 05-14-2011, 09:19 AM
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Lightbulb Electrical Part

Dear Jetijs,
I have gone through ur all the post right from starting to end, I belive everything related to the convertion of Plastic to Oil is shared and was quite confident that i will be able to make one for me, but than recent post from Mr. Islander made me think twice. I have some doubts and it will be ur great help if u guide me.
1. the solid state relays used in Heater, I think they are used only for switching ON/OFF so Can I use contactor to control ON/OFF of heater using Temp. Controller.
2. I am planning to use HDPE. LDPE and PP for Cracking, so please suggest what temp should I maintain.
3. I think insulating top cover create a problem, so is it vise decision to keep it open.
4. Regarding condenser simple Car Radiator can be used with forced water cooling, or need to go with three tank as in ur project.
5. I dont have centrifuge machine and I want to use diesel produced in heavy vechile like truck or utility and car so what additional process is needed.
6. any good additive and catalyte that u suggest to be used to get more quantity of clean Diesel.
Hope u or other members reply to my this mail ASAP.
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  #359  
Old 05-14-2011, 11:51 AM
RAMSET RAMSET is offline
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Great Stuff!

Jetijs
Thank you just isn't good enough ..................
You are an amazing man with "Mad "Skills!!You inspire men to action[myself being one ]This is priceless!
We will be following your new "self run" direction with great interest!
Can you post a link to your Carb idea??[why waste the Fuel we make?]

Thanks
Chet
PS
Thanks to all here that help !
PPS
Jetijs Was it you that played with the Turbine?
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  #360  
Old 05-14-2011, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hurkatm View Post
Dear Jetijs,
I have gone through ur all the post right from starting to end, I belive everything related to the convertion of Plastic to Oil is shared and was quite confident that i will be able to make one for me, but than recent post from Mr. Islander made me think twice. I have some doubts and it will be ur great help if u guide me.
1. the solid state relays used in Heater, I think they are used only for switching ON/OFF so Can I use contactor to control ON/OFF of heater using Temp. Controller.
2. I am planning to use HDPE. LDPE and PP for Cracking, so please suggest what temp should I maintain.
3. I think insulating top cover create a problem, so is it vise decision to keep it open.
4. Regarding condenser simple Car Radiator can be used with forced water cooling, or need to go with three tank as in ur project.
5. I dont have centrifuge machine and I want to use diesel produced in heavy vechile like truck or utility and car so what additional process is needed.
6. any good additive and catalyte that u suggest to be used to get more quantity of clean Diesel.
Hope u or other members reply to my this mail ASAP.
1.Yes you can use contactors, but I am afraid they will wear out fast because the sparking contacts, also the power tu turn it on and off is way greater than solid state relays. I would go with solid state relays as they cost about the same as a good and powerful contactor.
2. For those plastics anuthing from 420-450 degree celsius should be fine
3. It is all adjustable, if you can't seem to get any fuel produced with the uncovered lid, pot some insulation on there and see how that performs. See what works best for you.
4. Car radiator would work, but it has small tube diameters and this might cause a problem of cogging the tubes with carbon residue. Use something with at least an inch of diameter or even bigger pipe diameter.
5.On older cars just fractionating the fuel and filtering it through a fine cloth will work just fine, you just need to get rid of the waxes.
6. We don't use any catalysts, but I have heard that aluminum oxide can be used. Don't know anything more about this.
Hope this helps.
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