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#1
12-25-2010, 01:53 PM
 sebosfato Silver Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: milan Posts: 778
Centrifugal force as Energy Generator

Figure a disc with radius of 1 meter having a 6,28 meters circumference spinning at 1000 rpm. At 1000 rpm means that the disc will have a 16,6 turns per second. Witch gives us a speed of 104,6 meters per second. squared becomes 10955 and than divided by 1 = an acceleration 1000 times grater than the gravity.

The centripetal acceleration will be = to more than 1000xg or 10955m/s*s

What if you use this disc to pump water?

Would not you use the force to perform work without consuming power?

The only power being consumed will be that of the bearings and the water contact but the work being developed would be far greater than the energy being consumed.

a=v*v/r

What if you put a generator on each water output of the disc?
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#2
12-25-2010, 04:09 PM
 sebosfato Silver Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: milan Posts: 778
The electrons on the metals are free to move, and as they do have a mass they can and actually do move under appliance of force.

The disk generator without a magnet, would have no counter force. The electrons would go to the sides making it negative while the center of the disk would become positive becoming a dipole or a battery. ...

The centripetal force does not get consumed by moving the electrons.

Actually the momentum would change but as long as you keep adding electrons on one side the system should amplify the voltage.

somehow.
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#3
12-25-2010, 08:16 PM
 elias Gold Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 1,130
Hi,

Actually I built a generator based on this principle, but ... if you try to "use" the centrifugal force it would put a significant drag on the motor operating the eccentric rotor or disc of yours.

The generator I built had two sliding legs and a motor with an egg rotor mounted on it, the legs had powerful Neo magnets, which were sliding inside a coil, I shorted the coils and put some drag on the moving legs of my generator and it dragged my motor significantly so, I abandoned the project.

What I have not worked out and built yet is an electric generator using the Milkovic Oscillator. This is what needs to be tested.

A question arises: Does the length of the rotating pendulum decrease the drag on it or not?

Elias
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#4
12-25-2010, 09:08 PM
 sebosfato Silver Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: milan Posts: 778
HEllo Elias,

The disc if used in conventional manner with magnet would yes cause drag cause you are creating the dipole by interaction of the lenz law and not the centripetal force alone.

From the equation of centripetal acceleration we have that the acceleration is inversely proportional to the radius, so if it decreases the acceleration would increase. So as the force when the kinetic energy is maximum. As the force will have the same relationship, as it is multiplied on the up side of the equation.

My idea is that the centripetal force would be best used as a pump of water than electrical generator. The Milkovic Oscillator is an interesting device i think i will try constructing one too for making some measurements.

Br
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#5
12-26-2010, 06:50 PM
 Cherryman Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 398
Played with the idear as well ,

Centrifugual water generator idear
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#6
12-26-2010, 08:46 PM
 sebosfato Silver Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: milan Posts: 778
Hello Cherryman

Very nice your idea, exactly the same of mine. Have you tried to build it?

I'm trying to find the calculations to determine the power output for a specific size. I have an ac motor that i want to use for driving it witch have 1800rmp. 400w. Maybe is more than enough to keep a big diameter tubes maybe 1 meter long i just need to make the rotor base to be able to drive it. The idea is to have less weight on the wheel to have lower frictions on the bearings. i'm thinking about making a plastic cover and base for the tubes as to have better aerodynamic. The thing will become a big water vortex. hehe

I think it will be over unity for sure.

Just need to calculate the water flow to calculate the work available. Even if there will be some losses there will be a gain i hope.

I'm trying to verify if the acceleration will be constant during the trip of the water to ensure that the water will not get out of the tube without sucking up the next water. I don't know yet how to determine the diameter of the tube to avoid this situation but could be accomplished allowing a bit of hydrodynamic loss.

All this because i'm thinking on the momentum transformation when the mass moves from the center to the perimeter of the circumference.

Anyway seems that the acceleration is constant whatever is the radius.
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Last edited by sebosfato; 12-26-2010 at 08:53 PM.
#7
12-26-2010, 09:28 PM
 sebosfato Silver Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: milan Posts: 778
Ok Now i can say that it is an over unity numerically. Even don't knowing the input energy needed regarding the losses on bearings is pretty clear cheap and easy to use energy solution.

One tube long 10 meters (radius) spinning at 2000 Rpm With a flow of 10 liters of water per second would generate 21Kw/h of energy.

Now the cool thing is that you can use mercury witch is much denser and with a smaller flow you can generate even more power. For example you can generate with a flow rate of 1 liter per second 27Kw/h of power.

The centripetal acceleration or gravity g being 209 cause is only 2000 rpm

The RPM increases the energy output
Increasing the radius increases the energy output
Increasing the density or the flow of the liquid too

We could maybe have 30 tubes running in one single disc so 600kwatts per 300m/2 circle or more if made up in towers.

You could make one over a big lake and supply the energy for the all city.
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#8
12-26-2010, 10:48 PM
 elias Gold Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 1,130
Quote:
 Originally Posted by sebosfato HEllo Elias, The disc if used in conventional manner with magnet would yes cause drag cause you are creating the dipole by interaction of the lenz law and not the centripetal force alone. From the equation of centripetal acceleration we have that the acceleration is inversely proportional to the radius, so if it decreases the acceleration would increase. So as the force when the kinetic energy is maximum. As the force will have the same relationship, as it is multiplied on the up side of the equation. My idea is that the centripetal force would be best used as a pump of water than electrical generator. The Milkovic Oscillator is an interesting device i think i will try constructing one too for making some measurements. Br
Just thought to tell you to save time for you, but when you try to capture power from an eccentric rotor's centrifugal force, you will end up losing speed on your rotor.

If I were you and wanted to find a way to extract energy, I would go for the spiral movement of water.
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Last edited by elias; 12-26-2010 at 10:52 PM.
#9
12-26-2010, 11:12 PM
 sebosfato Silver Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: milan Posts: 778
Quote:
 Originally Posted by elias Just thought to tell you to save time for you, but when you try to capture power from an eccentric rotor's centrifugal force, you will end up losing speed on your rotor. If I were you and wanted to find a way to extract energy, I would go for the spiral movement of water.
Hello Elias,

My idea is to use the water velocity after it exited the tube so theres no way to become a loss, the pressure impact is what will move the generator. The gain come from the acceleration inside the tube, the longer it is (radius) the greater will be the time (length) to gain velocity (water speed) by acceleration, and the greater is the diameter of the tube the greater will be the flow.

Now i'm trying to determine the diameter of the tube. Seems incredibly small. As the acceleration is very bigger than the gravity you need no big dam for accumulating potential, the centripetal acceleration accomplish this allowing you to generate more energy with less flow of water than on today known hydroelectric plants. The idea is that you don't need potential energy at all. So the water or fluid can be used in an almost close loop. I mean almost cause you will need enough fluid as to not let the impact couple to the acceleration of the rotor-

The gain in my view would be of around 100 times over unity.

If the bearings losses could be held down to 400 watts and you generate 40 kwatts.

The formula is for the power is density*flow*height*g

I substituted the g by the centripetal acceleration and the height for the radius.

density is 1000kg/m3
and flow is in m3/second
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#10
12-27-2010, 01:56 AM
 Farmhand Platinum Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Australia Posts: 3,389
sebosfato and Cherryman, What an awesome idea, I really like things that spin. Although it is a little complicated (lots of parts) it would seem to me if it was big enough it would work and quite well.

Very impressive, don't forget evaporation losses, reducing the amount of water if not totally enclosed. You might want to incorperate a method of reducing any splashing, churning or cavitation of the water, believe it or not there could also be some counter currents created. (just a thought)

That would be a beutifull thing if it was 40 feet diameter.

Of course I haven't got my quite head around the principal of operation yet but it just looks like it will work.

Cheers
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#11
12-27-2010, 05:52 AM
 sebosfato Silver Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: milan Posts: 778
For me too Farmhand, i believe it can work quite well. I was thinking a little better and maybe would be good to make the thing floating on the water as to reduce the weight or the losses or requirements of the bearings. I'm thinking like a cone very wide attached to a central axis. Having the tubes and air for it to float and develop pressure on the water.

The thing is to raise the Q factor of the wheel. And to make it good enough to spin with lot of rpm. Having many generators on it (many tubes) you can generate gigantic power.

The explanation resides in the fact that you create artificial gravity witch keeps pulling the water to the outer side of the circumference. As the radius will be greater than 1 meter the water will have a great acceleration distance.

In a hydroelectric plant they accumulate the water at a big height because the gravity force is limited to 10. But with centripetal acceleration you can develop an acceleration greater by a factor of 100 times, and wasting little power cause the energy to keep spinning the wheel will depend on the Q factor of the wheel or the reason between the accumulated energy in the spin of the wheel and the losses per rotation. The energy accumulated can become 1000 times greater than the loss. Just like the Q factor in a resonant tank.

I'm trying to think how to make this effect directly using the electricity but is still another challenge for the future.

I calculated that if this system was used on the today hydroelectric plants more than 100 times more energy could be generated and distributed for free.

I would than suggest the automobile industry to use compressed air for the engines. As electricity will be very cheap. And because of the compressed air tank theory i raised.

Nice that you enjoyed farmhand.

There will be some losses for sure, but the gain will be too much.
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Last edited by sebosfato; 12-27-2010 at 05:55 AM.
#12
12-27-2010, 06:03 AM
 Farmhand Platinum Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Australia Posts: 3,389
Here's a song to help you stay focussed sebosfato (not that you need it), it's all in there my friend.

YouTube - Spinning Wheel - High Quality Version

Couldn't resist sorry.
I hope you can get to listen to it. It's funny how pertinent some of these old songs are when you listen to the words.

Cheers
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#13
12-27-2010, 12:14 PM
 sebosfato Silver Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: milan Posts: 778
Thanks man, very nice song.

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#14
12-27-2010, 12:18 PM
 sebosfato Silver Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: milan Posts: 778
I was just thinking about and if we just add some magnets on the tube having electrodes shorted inside the tube, and we make the all thing closed, we would generate directly hydrogen by magneto hydrodynamics. the container should be closed.

Cool isn't it?

with the water flowing at 20meters per second having a field of ,5 tesla would be enough i think....
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#15
12-27-2010, 09:06 PM
 sebosfato Silver Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: milan Posts: 778
I kept thinking here, and found that my idea is not so good in the end, cause i found that for accelerating the water even in perpendicular direction by its inertia, it will make a force against the movement of the wheel. So basically the efficiency after all will never be higher than 100%. I'm not pretty sure but seems possible. I was told this explanation about the inertia problem from my inventor friend.

Anyway was a nice to think idea hehehe
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