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  #1  
Old 11-07-2010, 05:35 PM
ibpointless2 ibpointless2 is offline
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Captret - Perpetual Light with Dead Batteries

Over at overunity.com i have been working on something i call the captret. Its a capacitor thats been modified to allow you to do things that the textbooks say you can't.

Captret - Capacitor and Electret

A simple video demo of me getting twice the Light from a LED for the price of only ONE charge.

YouTube - Captret PROOF OF OVERUNITY

Here is another video of the captret running a LED constantly.

YouTube - Captret LED Driver circuit


But the important thing to note is that when i'm using the "dead" 9 volt batteries the voltage goes down when first connected to the circuit but from there it goes up even though the LED is still connected as a load. The even more crazy part is that my "new" charged 9 volt batteries will drop when first connected to the circuit but keep slowly dropping, and this is what you would expect from any circuit but why does the dead batteries go up?
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  #2  
Old 11-07-2010, 08:25 PM
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sseti sseti is offline
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hello ibpointless2

Must say great finding.
Today I put un test your circuit and as you said with two dead 9V batteryes (one 7,01V and second 1,2 V), connected in series. When I put it in test, I noticed voltage drop to 4,6 V and still droping (think due so big difference in batterys voltage).

Will see tomorrow
till then
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Old 11-07-2010, 09:34 PM
ibpointless2 ibpointless2 is offline
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Originally Posted by sseti View Post
hello ibpointless2

Must say great finding.
Today I put un test your circuit and as you said with two dead 9V batteryes (one 7,01V and second 1,2 V), connected in series. When I put it in test, I noticed voltage drop to 4,6 V and still droping (think due so big difference in batterys voltage).

Will see tomorrow
till then
Yes that is way to big of a difference in battery voltage. The 7 volt battery is charging the 1.2 volt battery and that is the reason for the loss. Try it with the 7 volt battery only.

What i suggest is a series of dead batteries that add up to around 20 volts and just let it run non stop to see how long your LED will run for. The LED will get dimmer but should not go out.

************************************************** ******
Oh and one important thing i should note if you're trying to replicate this experiment! I used brand new 1uF @ 400 capacitors and before i hook up all the wires to the capacitor i pre-charge the capacitors + and - with a battery, you can use your source battery or a another battery with a voltage close to the source battery. The light sometimes will not turn on unless you pre-charged the capacitor. And a pre-charge is just a mere tap of the capacitor terminals to the battery.
************************************************** ******
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Old 11-07-2010, 11:25 PM
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Nice job ipointless, I played around with a 47uf cap and it all works as you said... could lead to some interesting experiments. I made some measurements and was able to light an LED with a .005ma current draw, not super bright but noticeably glowing. About as low as it gets and still light. Also found some interesting results with a pulsed input.

Great find ! keep up the good work !
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Last edited by dragon; 05-11-2011 at 10:59 AM.
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Old 11-07-2010, 11:55 PM
ibpointless2 ibpointless2 is offline
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Originally Posted by dragon View Post
Nice job ipointless, I played around with a 47uf cap and it all works as you said... could lead to some interesting experiments. I made some measurements and was able to light an LED with a .005ma current draw, not super bright but noticeably glowing. About as low as it gets and still light. Also found some interesting results with a pulsed input.

Great find ! keep up the good work !
Thanks!

Yup its voltage that matters and not amps, but a .005ma current draw is impressive! I've made one version that ran the LED and charge another battery too, so yes some very interesting things can be made.

Hmm, pulsed imput? didn't think of doing that. I've had tought of connecting a joule thief to it but figure the amps would be too low.



*********************************
So far i know is:

Voltage matters! around 20 volts is prefered.

using a 10uf instead of the 1uf does give off better light.

for some odd reason dead batteries work better? Makes a great circuit to use to recycle your dead batteries.

you don't have to use 9 volt batteries, AA or AAA and even button cells will work; the voltage in series just needs to be higher than 7 volts!

There is more than one way to hook it up.
-you can twist both leads together and connect the top to both leads and it will work.
-you can do top to + and vise versa

For some reason nothing gets warm or hot?

If your building one for the first time its best to use a capacitor that has been used at least once, a dead 9 volt battery with at least 7 volts and above on it, and a super bright red LED.

Aliagtor clips work best for making the connection to the top, for some reason solder wont stick and hot glue is not conductive.
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Old 11-08-2010, 12:15 AM
rave154 rave154 is offline
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Hi,

i replicated your setup as described using 3 AAA batts tostart with.LED lit..so then i changed to a 1.2AH 12V battery....ammeter in series from the battery..and also volt meter across the battery.

as i turned it on, LED lit brightly and still is..... also, over the course of perhaps 2 minutes.the current from the batt dropped from 21 mA to now at 0.824 mA( and still dropping )......but the voltage on the battery has increased from 12.62V to 12.64V
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Old 11-08-2010, 12:19 AM
rave154 rave154 is offline
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amps from battery 0.717 mA now..and battery voltage gone up to 12.65V
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Old 11-08-2010, 12:35 AM
rave154 rave154 is offline
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amp draw 0.517 mA.and voltage on battery gone up to 12.66V now... LED still lit of course.

also, i am not leaving the meters ON in case they interfere some how
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Old 11-08-2010, 12:42 AM
ibpointless2 ibpointless2 is offline
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Originally Posted by rave154 View Post
amp draw 0.517 mA.and voltage on battery gone up to 12.66V now... LED still lit of course.

also, i am not leaving the meters ON in case they interfere some how


Wow great results!

Yes its best to leave the meter disconnected. What capacitor are you using?
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Old 11-08-2010, 12:58 AM
rave154 rave154 is offline
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Hi,

its a 10uF, 16V cap ( typical in circuit boards etc )

also the battery is a good condition 1.2AH 12V

also i did NOT pre-charge the cap

still @ 12.66V ( but i have a feeling its going to go to 12.67 )

amp draw @ 0.399 mA now

i put the scope on it....

putting just the positive probe of the scope ( ground of scope not attatched to anything ) onto the positive of the cap.....gave an AC signal...about 50Hz ( our AC is 60 Hz here )....but it was modulated up and down like crazy.... RMS value of voltage was about 112mV
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Old 11-08-2010, 01:10 AM
rave154 rave154 is offline
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amp draw 0.384 mA now... and heres some voltage measurements

V Across LED.. 1.81V

battery 12.66V

top of cap to cap+ .. 12.62V

top of cap to cap- ... 10.81V ( which i guess when added to the 1.81 across cap gives us 12.62V ?)

amp draw now @ 0.378mA

now this is a little odd....

putting my volt meter into AC Volts mode...

across LED 3.2VAC with the leads one way around...when i switch them. 0.0VAC

battery 0.0V ( no surprise there huh )

top of cap to cap+ ... 27VAC

top of cap to cap- .... 23VAC
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Old 11-08-2010, 01:15 AM
rave154 rave154 is offline
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ok...

amp draw now @ 0.359mA

and voltage on battery HAS gone up to 12.67V ( from 12.62 when started )

oh i should mention, the LE Dis lit nicely, not quite fully bright..but.kind of how they appear when used as an indicator.....just not FULLY bright
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Old 11-08-2010, 01:22 AM
ibpointless2 ibpointless2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rave154 View Post
amp draw 0.384 mA now... and heres some voltage measurements

V Across LED.. 1.81V

battery 12.66V

top of cap to cap+ .. 12.62V

top of cap to cap- ... 10.81V ( which i guess when added to the 1.81 across cap gives us 12.62V ?)

amp draw now @ 0.378mA

now this is a little odd....

putting my volt meter into AC Volts mode...

across LED 3.2VAC with the leads one way around...when i switch them. 0.0VAC

battery 0.0V ( no surprise there huh )

top of cap to cap+ ... 27VAC

top of cap to cap- .... 23VAC

I got 3.2VAC too across my LED? my battery is two 9 volts in series to = 17.39 volts. My cap is 10uF @ 200 volts.
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Old 11-08-2010, 01:27 AM
dragon dragon is offline
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It runs a JT circuit very nicely at around 4 ma with a very bright output. The input to the cap is from a 1.2ah 6v SLA. Pretty impressive indeed.

Thanks for sharing your discovery, I can see this being used in all sorts of variations...
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Last edited by dragon; 05-11-2011 at 10:59 AM.
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  #15  
Old 11-08-2010, 01:37 AM
ibpointless2 ibpointless2 is offline
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Truly amazing!

The captret might be AC by nature!
top of cap to + = 37.6 VAC
top of cap to - = 33.7 VAC
Across LED = 3.2 VAC

The battery voltage is only 17.39, how can it be higher and AC? Just amazing!
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Old 11-08-2010, 02:04 AM
rave154 rave154 is offline
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amp draw now @ 0.242 mA.....voltage still at 12.67V

definietely an AC component to this...bouncing back and forth between the "REAL" capacitor ( the normal + & - terminals)...and the psuedo capacitor ( the top of cap & either + or - )

weird how youre getting the same 3.2VAC across the LED as i am
???

very odd
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Old 11-08-2010, 02:10 AM
rave154 rave154 is offline
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ok, i put two LED's in series..both lit as bright as just 1 was ( at least as far as i can tell with my eyes ).....amp immediately went down to 0.119mA...and voltage on battery has gone UP to 12.68

DC volts across BOTH LEDS = 3.53V...equally split between them
VAC across both LEDS = 6.9VAC
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Old 11-08-2010, 02:11 AM
dragon dragon is offline
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I think you found another form of Dr. Stifflers Sgate. I've had a JT circuit running for about an hour now and the input requirement has been falling slowly. It started at 4.5ma and droped very quickly to 4ma then slowly over time to it's present 1.7ma. No noticable change in battery voltage up or down but with that low of power draw I wouldn't expect to see anything.

I did check it with a scope and other than the normal 60hz noise I didn't see anything that jumped out at me.

In another test using a 10v 10000uf cap I found you can light an LED to full bright and it only needs to be tapped with the ground on the case every 3-4 seconds to keep it going with only a 1.5ma "boost" on each tap.

Fun little gizmo ibpointless !
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Last edited by dragon; 05-11-2011 at 10:59 AM.
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Old 11-08-2010, 02:44 AM
ibpointless2 ibpointless2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rave154 View Post
ok, i put two LED's in series..both lit as bright as just 1 was ( at least as far as i can tell with my eyes ).....amp immediately went down to 0.119mA...and voltage on battery has gone UP to 12.68

DC volts across BOTH LEDS = 3.53V...equally split between them
VAC across both LEDS = 6.9VAC


WOW! Putting the LED's in series did light up as bright as if it was one!

Thanks to everyone who is giving such great ideas for the captret!
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Old 11-08-2010, 05:57 AM
miki02131 miki02131 is offline
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You might be able to tell for sure whether this captret effect is really an open system effect by measuring the resistance between the [O] lead and the [-] lead. If the resistance is infinite then you have discovered something big. If that resistance is in the megohms, then this circuit is simply equivalent to power up an LED through a few megohms resistor. In the latter case, there may not be too much hope in this effort.

Miki Out.
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Old 11-08-2010, 06:33 AM
rave154 rave154 is offline
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measured the resistance as asked.csame to just over 1Mohm

also..went back to only 1 LED after briefly trying 2.now drawing 0.113 mA...battewry at 12.68V
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Old 11-08-2010, 06:41 AM
broli broli is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miki02131 View Post
You might be able to tell for sure whether this captret effect is really an open system effect by measuring the resistance between the [O] lead and the [-] lead. If the resistance is infinite then you have discovered something big. If that resistance is in the megohms, then this circuit is simply equivalent to power up an LED through a few megohms resistor. In the latter case, there may not be too much hope in this effort.

Miki Out.
This is one of the first things I measured. When measured stand alone it starts around 1M ohm and goes up in a few seconds out of range of the meter. If you let it rest for a bit it can start from 400k ohm and go out of range.

However when you have used it in the above mentioned circuit it starts out negative goes through zero and starts to rise and go out of range over quite a bit of time.

Also for a more accurate light intensity reading it's best to use a photodiode:
Measure Light Intensity using Photodiode : Low Cost USB DAQ
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Old 11-08-2010, 02:38 PM
ibpointless2 ibpointless2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by broli View Post
This is one of the first things I measured. When measured stand alone it starts around 1M ohm and goes up in a few seconds out of range of the meter. If you let it rest for a bit it can start from 400k ohm and go out of range.

However when you have used it in the above mentioned circuit it starts out negative goes through zero and starts to rise and go out of range over quite a bit of time.

Also for a more accurate light intensity reading it's best to use a photodiode:
Measure Light Intensity using Photodiode : Low Cost USB DAQ
I think its more than just a resistor, there is some strange things happening; like how it starts negative and goes to zero and into out of range. It being a resistor wouldn't explain the increase in voltage when read in AC mode of the meter. A resistor would drain the battery but other like me have experienced the voltage go up on a battery. The captret is very unique and i think i may have something here.
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Old 11-08-2010, 06:43 PM
rave154 rave154 is offline
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ok,

decided to start again with a fresh new cap ( same value 10 uF )..same battery started at 12.63V

batt now at 12.65V..drawing 0.580mA and dropping

i was pondering, wether to also have the top of the cap.connected to a "ground" in the house?


also have attatched a scope shot... 100mV per div....4mS per div time scale..definitely 50Hz
Attached Images
File Type: jpg captret-1.jpg (164.9 KB, 85 views)
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Old 11-08-2010, 08:15 PM
rave154 rave154 is offline
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batery at 12.67V now...amp draw 0.220 mA

tried the "earth" connection at al places on the circuit..no change
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Old 11-08-2010, 08:31 PM
ibpointless2 ibpointless2 is offline
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I just tried using a super cap. The LED didn't turn on right away but slowly came on and is still getting brighter. The 9 volt battery is a new one that is slowly charging up while the the power inside the super cap builds up and as the super cap builds up the LED lights up more!
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Old 11-08-2010, 08:37 PM
Zooty Zooty is offline
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Just ran the experiment and i am getting the same results. Can't say if the battery is charging or not because it might just be bounce back from the initial charging of the cap but it has gone up a couple of millivolts. Current draw from a 12v 2.3ah battery is 0.09ma and the voltage across a 3v blue led is 2.4v. The led is not really bright but its definitely lit. I am also getting the AC voltage in one direction across the led and cap top and the 50hz signal on the scope. Interesting experiment.
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Old 11-08-2010, 08:44 PM
Zooty Zooty is offline
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Quote:
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I just tried using a super cap. The LED didn't turn on right away but slowly came on and is still getting brighter. The 9 volt battery is a new one that is slowly charging up while the the power inside the super cap builds up and as the super cap builds up the LED lights up more!
What spec is your supercap?
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Old 11-08-2010, 08:51 PM
ibpointless2 ibpointless2 is offline
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I used 10F @ 2.3 volt super caps. It took about 30 minutes for the LED to show light, My LEDs turn on at about 1.5 volts across the + and - of the super cap.
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Old 11-08-2010, 08:56 PM
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Cool

Did anyone noticed the same effect when cap + is disconected from the circuit?
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