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  #1  
Old 11-05-2010, 08:02 PM
7imix 7imix is offline
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Tesla's Bifilar Pancake Coils

Jiffycoil started building bifilar pancake coils with a nice technique that makes them easy to wind.

Joulethief SEC exciter and variants



In Tesla's patent 512,340, "Coil for electro-magnets", he says:

Quote:
I have found that in every coil there exists a certain relation between its self-induction and capacity that permits a current of given frequency and potential to pass through it with no other opposition than that of ohmic resistance, or, in other words, as though it possessed no self-induction.
COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS - Google Patent Search

These bifilar pancake coils will be useful for many types of circuits discussed here. If we can learn to design and build pancake coils that have no self-induction, we may observe interesting effects that deserve study.
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  #2  
Old 11-05-2010, 08:12 PM
7imix 7imix is offline
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This post by Lamare is the inspiration for this thread, and it contains many links with very useful information about bifilar coils.

Joulethief SEC exciter and variants
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Old 11-06-2010, 12:51 AM
electricity electricity is offline
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Old school pancake coil

Has anyone wound a pancake coil with electrically aniso-tropic cotton die electric?.
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Old 11-06-2010, 01:02 AM
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Where can you get the wire? It would be interesting to see how it performs.
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Old 11-06-2010, 02:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiffycoil View Post
Where can you get the wire? It would be interesting to see how it performs.
Hi Jiffycoil, this is what lasersaber and the Nathan Stubblefield Earth Battery replicators have been using:

COTTON COVERED Covered Copper Wire
wires.co.uk : Double Cotton Covered Copper Wire

It's interesting to note that Stubblefield used two types of wire (cotton covered copper & iron) which maintain a (seemingly galvanic) potential difference. Tesla refers to the importance of increased potential difference in his patent:

Quote:
In order to attain my object and to properly increase the capacity of any given coil, I wind it in such a way as to secure a greater difference of potential between it's adjacent turns or convolutions
Quote:
What I claim as my invention is -
1. A coil for electric apparatus the adjacent convolutions of which form parts of the circuit between which there exists a potential difference sufficient to secure the coil a capacity capable of neutralizing its self-inductance, as hereinbefore described.
Was Tesla doing the same?
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  #6  
Old 11-06-2010, 03:27 AM
electricity electricity is offline
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Wrong material = crappy coil

Quote:
Originally Posted by kazm View Post
It's interesting to note that Stubblefield used two types of wire (cotton covered copper & iron) which maintain a (seemingly galvanic) potential difference. Tesla refers to the importance of increased potential difference in his patent:
Quote:
Originally Posted by kazm View Post

It's interesting to note that Stubblefield used two types of wire (cotton covered copper & iron) which maintain a (seemingly galvanic) potential difference. Tesla refers to the importance of increased potential difference in his patent:
Was Tesla doing the same?
By Tesla -Delivered before the Institution of Electrical Engineers, London, February 1892.

Good coils may be produced by employing wires covered with several layers of cotton, boiling the coil a long time in pure wax, and cooling under moderate pressure. The advantage of such a coil is that it can be easily handled, but it cannot probably give as satisfactory results as a coil immersed in pure oil. Besides, it seems that the presence of a large body of wax affects the coil disadvantageously, whereas this does not seem to be the case with oil. Perhaps it is because the dielectric losses in the liquid are smaller.

I have tried at first silk and cotton covered wires with oil immersion; but I have been gradually led to use gutta-percha covered wires, which proved most satisfactory. Gutta-percha insulation adds, of course, to the capacity of the coil, and this, especially if the coil be large, is a great disadvantage when extreme frequencies are desired; but, on the other hand, gutta-percha will withstand much more than an equal thickness of oil, and this advantage should be secured at any price. Once the coil has been immersed, it should never be taken out of the oil for more than a few hours, else the gutta-percha will crack up and the coil will not be worth half as much as before. Gutta-percha is probably slowly attacked by the oil, but after an immersion of eight to nine months I have found no ill effects.

May be we're not producing the same result because we are materials are all wrong, synthetic crap=crappy coil . ?
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Old 11-06-2010, 03:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by electricity View Post
Has anyone wound a pancake coil with electrically aniso-tropic cotton die electric?.
Yes I have this is a few images of it powered up.


Pancake coil 2 by jiffycoil, on Flickr


pancake coil by jiffycoil, on Flickr


Bi Polar pancake coil by jiffycoil, on Flickr
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Old 11-06-2010, 04:08 AM
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As an experiment a "loosely" wound variant of the
Tesla bifilar coil, (6 turns, 8 in diameter) was used
as a Digital TV Loop Antenna.

It has good broadband gain and unusually high directivity.

Very interesting possibilities.
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Old 11-06-2010, 04:18 AM
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@SeaMonkey
Great experiment. How far are you from the transmitter?
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Old 11-06-2010, 07:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7imix View Post
Jiffycoil started building bifilar pancake coils with a nice technique that makes them easy to wind.

Joulethief SEC exciter and variants
.
Could you please refer to a post number in that thread. The page content differs from country to country.
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Old 11-06-2010, 12:12 PM
sebosfato sebosfato is offline
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Pancake coils are important due to the asymmetry of electric fields.

The inner turns have less inductance than outside coils.

If you use insulated wire, it acts as a simple coil. If bare copper will behave as a strange device.

As there are two coils bifilar, the electric field of one coil induce movements of electrons on the other coil where induction is lower.

If you make it to self support, without touching anything else than the circuit, it will behave completely different.

Vacuum would be a the perfect insulation mean.
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Old 11-06-2010, 03:51 PM
sebosfato sebosfato is offline
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This coil would provide a Q factor that increases with voltage applied to it. So if get it into resonance it will become a self oscillating system. By no self induction don't mean that you don't have inductance, the way the coil is show in the drawing you can actually see it.

The fact is that the coils are not subjected by other coils all around fields around them, so only outwards. And if you think of the field it will be ever increasing outward. Than you can also think that if there is a frequency of a certain nature that should be harnessed it would in this coil because the bigger you make it the widest the band of the "antenna" because there is not only one self resonant frequency. _Every turn have a different inductance capacitance configuration... wider band filter with high q

The electric field of the outer turns is bigger than on the inner coils so as its inductance, so electric field takes place and move the electrons by electrostatic induction force... Accelerating the electrons or creating a sort of super conductivity that amplify the electricity flowing on the wire.

A capacitor is needed to resonate with it at the right frequency to achieve the desired effect.

The input circuit must be coupled using flux condensers. and the output can be taken on a secondary coupled to the coil.

This circuit being driven into high voltage operation using only electrostatic forces thru the flux condensers.
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Old 11-06-2010, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nvisser View Post
Could you please refer to a post number in that thread. The page content differs from country to country.

Hi, sorry for the delay with an answer. The pancake coils are easy to wind. If you have a winding jig they are even easier. Check out my Flickr link and it shows winding a coil on my homemade winding jig. If winding by hand then you will be the winding jig and it will be a slower go but the results will be the same. In the photos you will see I used sheet rock paper tape as the insulator between winds. For the smaller coils you can use 1/2 inch masking tape or some tape around that size. You want the sticky side facing towards you so the wire will stick to it and help keep it in the center. You can attach the tape to the coil form (plastic tube) with a piece of tape.

Have Fun
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Old 11-06-2010, 07:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiffycoil View Post
Hi, sorry for the delay with an answer. The pancake coils are easy to wind. If you have a winding jig they are even easier. Check out my Flickr link and it shows winding a coil on my homemade winding jig. If winding by hand then you will be the winding jig and it will be a slower go but the results will be the same. In the photos you will see I used sheet rock paper tape as the insulator between winds. For the smaller coils you can use 1/2 inch masking tape or some tape around that size. You want the sticky side facing towards you so the wire will stick to it and help keep it in the center. You can attach the tape to the coil form (plastic tube) with a piece of tape.

Have Fun
Thank you. Where will I find This: Check out my Flickr link
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Old 11-06-2010, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiffycoil View Post
@SeaMonkey
Great experiment. How far are you from the transmitter?
I have it attached to my Digital TV "converter box" in
order to receive the broadcast digital stations locally.

The transmitters are anywhere from 10 to 30 miles
distant in several different directions.

This antenna works better than the single loop I had
used previously and better than a folded dipole
configuration as well. Very surprising for such a small
and simple home-made device.

Very sharp nulls when it is pointed in the wrong
direction for certain stations, and very sharp peaks
when pointed in the proper direction.
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Old 11-06-2010, 08:09 PM
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Ooops,

How to wind a pancake tesla secondary coil

Sorry about that.
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  #17  
Old 11-07-2010, 07:48 AM
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I have done one wire transmission of energy using two such coils.
I suppose that the TPU is also based on such effects: http://www.zpenergy.com/modules.php?...p=getit&lid=94
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Old 11-07-2010, 08:16 AM
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I understand clearly..thanks for explaining..
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  #19  
Old 11-07-2010, 05:28 PM
7imix 7imix is offline
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Here is a bifilar pancake coil I wound yesterday as a test. It's too small to do anything really interesting, I think, but it proved that this construction technique is fairly easy and produces beautiful results.



Balsa wood is glued together to form the frame. I then cut slits in the balsa with an xacto knife all the way around. Finally, I wound the spiral all the way from the inside out, then turned around and wound it on top of the other coil in the opposite direction from the outside in.

This method will allow me to control the inter-turn spacing, which I believe is one of the methods tesla is referring to to match the capacitance of the coil to it's self-induction.

Jiffycoil, that is a beautiful device! I would like to build one of those!
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Old 11-07-2010, 06:36 PM
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@7imix
That is a brilliant idea. I can clearly see the benefit in having the ability to tap various point on the coil. I guess I building on of these now. Great thinking.
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Old 11-08-2010, 10:04 AM
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I saw a video by woopy YouTube - bifilar Tesla pancake wireless coupling.wmv where he uses a bifilar pancake coil wired as a joulethief then another single wound pancake coil as the receiver. I was wondering what the result would be if he used a tesla bifilar as the receiver. Has anyone tried this?
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Old 11-08-2010, 07:21 PM
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bifilar

@Zooty,

Yes, they make excellent output coils. Wired in series, the bifilar pancake will generate twice the voltage.
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Old 11-12-2010, 02:01 AM
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Building large bifilar coil

I originally posted this in the Joulethief SEC exciter and variants thread...Jiffycoil recommended I post over in this thread as well. So here it is...!


I'm going all out on making a flat bifilar coil. Rig is in place to wind a set of 28 AWG magnet wires between two plates of glass. Shooting for 1,200 turns. Space between the glass will be sealed along the edges and brought to a hard vacuum (at least 1 atmosphere, hoping for 2). Wire showed up today the fun starts this weekend! Yes, I understand the dangers. I have a theory that many projects fail not because the idea is unsound, but at a small-scale any minor deviations can ruin the results.

Now if only I can get the glass place squared away...they thought I was crazy...untill I said it wasn't for a "table top."




-----

Speaking of glass, thoughts on Lead-alkali glass vs Borosilicate glass? I know the Lead-alkali glass will be a better insulator...but how will all that lead affect the magnetic field?

Given the size of the flat bifilar coil, the voltage coming off the coil is going to be insane. So insulation is good (less voltage leak)...as long as the magnetic field between the two windings is not substantially impacted.

Crud, now I have to make two of these with each type of glass. LOL
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Last edited by Mike2kt; 11-12-2010 at 02:13 AM. Reason: Added glass type input request.
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Old 11-12-2010, 02:35 AM
7imix 7imix is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike2kt View Post
I'm going all out on making a flat bifilar coil. Rig is in place to wind a set of 28 AWG magnet wires between two plates of glass. Shooting for 1,200 turns.
Awesome. Have you considered putting fishing line between the turns to reduce the capacitance of the coil? This will reduce the number of turns, but it might be significant. Just a suggestion.
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Old 11-12-2010, 03:18 AM
Mike2kt Mike2kt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7imix View Post
Awesome. Have you considered putting fishing line between the turns to reduce the capacitance of the coil? This will reduce the number of turns, but it might be significant. Just a suggestion.
Hmmm, actually no, I was going to wind it with no additional spacing between wires. Didn't even think of using fishing line...thanks for the idea!

I was originally going to order 42" diameter cercal glass which would have left me extra room anyway...I still have time to up that to a 48" diameter, but will probably need to jump from 1/2" thick to 3/4" thick for stability.

Forgive my ignorance...I come from the world of small digital circuits so these are new concepts at this scale. Is the spacing used to act as additional insulation between turns resulting in lower capacitance? Or is it the physical spacing/separation that lowers the capacitance?

I welcome (and appreciate) any and all ideas at this point!! Once this sucker is made, going back and making changes is a non-starter. It will have to wait for Rev II. ...at some point.
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Old 11-12-2010, 03:42 AM
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By doing this your coils voltage output can be optimized. Also you minimize the skin-effect and proximity effect losses.
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Old 11-12-2010, 03:58 AM
Mike2kt Mike2kt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiffycoil View Post
By doing this your coils voltage output can be optimized. Also you minimize the skin-effect and proximity effect losses.
Got it! Guess I'll be making a trip to the "Bass Pro Shop." lol I take it nylon fishing line is the way to go?

At this point I may just push back construction one weekend...given I still don't have the glass. I'm more than happy to turn this into a forum-driven design (within minor constraints like max diameter, max cost, etc) that I will then construct and share the results.

I'm absolutely not an expert at this, so if there are improvements to the design I'm all ears!!
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Old 11-12-2010, 05:23 AM
7imix 7imix is offline
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The closer the conductors, the more the capacitance. Eric Dollard mentions this in "Introduction to Dielectric & Magnetic Discharges in Electrical Windings & Electrical Oscillation". In section 13:

Quote:
This gives rise to an interesting paradox that will be noticed with capacity. This is that the smaller the space bounded by the conducting structure the more energy that can be stored. This is the exact opposite of magnetism.
The point of Tesla changing the capacity of the coil by adjusting the turn spacing is to match the capacity required to cancel self-inductance in the coil. It's not super important, because as Tesla says in the patent, one can always add an external capacitor ("condenser") to cancel the coil's self-inductance. However there may be other disadvantages to having a coil with a large capacitance, I don't know.

Have you estimated how long the final wire length will be to wind this coil? It would be interesting to calculate the frequency required for quarter-wave resonance.

Good luck building this, I will probably build one too if you share pics and construction details!
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Old 11-12-2010, 05:47 AM
Mike2kt Mike2kt is offline
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Originally Posted by 7imix View Post
Have you estimated how long the final wire length will be to wind this coil? It would be interesting to calculate the frequency required for quarter-wave resonance.

Assuming no additional spacing and a 120mm center diameter***, it's ~2,063 meters or ~6,768 feet for 1,200 turns. This is with 28 AWG wire and I have two spools, so running out is not a big issue.

***I'm under the impression that the inner most coils provide the least benefit...so to make starting the coil and centering everything (120mm CD) easier it's worth giving up that space. Or am I wrong and this needs to be made much smaller?

I don't have an exact number on the spacing with nylon fishing line yet...but it looks like 900 turns will fit in a slightly larger area. I'm trying to find line that is closer to the 28 AWG wire external diameter of 0.014in

I'm going for a multiple of 300 if that wasn't obvious.


I will be posting pictures and details as I build it for sure!
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Last edited by Mike2kt; 11-12-2010 at 05:56 AM.
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Old 11-12-2010, 07:45 AM
7imix 7imix is offline
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Quote:
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Assuming no additional spacing and a 120mm center diameter***, it's ~2,063 meters or ~6,768 feet for 1,200 turns. This is with 28 AWG wire and I have two spools, so running out is not a big issue.
6768 feet * 4 = 27072 feet. The wavelength of the resonant frequency will be around this.

I plugged some numbers into wolfram alpha and 36.29 kHz has a wavelength of 27103 feet. It should be quite easy to create a driver circuit that can impulse the coil at 36.29 kHz!

36.29 kilohertz - Wolfram|Alpha

That's over a mile of wire man! Crazy!

I think the center of the coil being empty is fine.
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