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  #1  
Old 08-13-2010, 07:33 PM
Godfrey Godfrey is offline
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Imhotep Car Relay Charger circuit - Adding additional Coil?

Hi Folks,

I'm new to the forum and a bit of an electronic newbee, (from an engineering technical perspective, though have tinkered with circuits/schematics, proto'ed on breadboards and soldered circuits together all my life) but have been following energy issues and many threads on this forum for awhile now. Just getting up the nerve to reach out and ask for some help on my own experiments.

I have tried the basic Imhotep car relay circuit with mixed success. Yes, I've been able to charge a battery, using smaller 12V lead acid batteries having about 4V difference between source and charge, to the point of a little less than a 2V difference with impressive radiant/COP > 1 statistics. But then, the source battery voltage starts dropping significantly, and little or no charge gain is made. Charging time is also very slow.

While recognizing the undeniable/enormous teaching and inspirational value of Imhotep's creation, I was seeking tipson how to augment the circuit to improve it's practical value.

From reading Peter Lindemann's radiant energy book, I've developed the opinion that there are inherent strengths in the use of physical triggers such as relays, commutators and spark gaps. In fact, the Car relay itself provides a physical spark gap, even if resistors and caps are used for snuffers, like people are doing with the replications/augmentations of Imhotep's CFL circuit. I've followed the threads on all that, especially Lidmotor's, because many of his own modifications retained the use of a relay. Then there's the easy availability of the normally off 87 - 30 circuit option to fire something else during the nprmally closed, power-off cycle. So I persist in working with it for now, rather than exploring other oscillator configurations, like transistor/trigger coil trifiler, 555 etc.

BTW I'm all for exploring other trigger methods, especially solid state 555 pulsing. One could, for instance use the same 555 circuit in the Bedini cap pulse battery charger for more than charging/swapping batteries -It could pulse HV to a spark gap or coil as a trigger isolated from and driving the resonant/radiant energy generator sub circuit.

But I have been disappointed that more hasn't been discussed about using the car relay circuit just as a battery charger - how to tweak it to make it more effective/faster at charging. Granted, lots of ideas could be extracted from the CFL threads, but I'm lacking some understanding of how to translate the circuits people were evolving there, back to the object of recovering as much energy as possible for charging a battery, rather than running a motor/fan or CFL in tandem while charging.

In his generous free ebook, Patrick Kelley discusses this circuit on 6-21 (399 in the pdf doc). He suggests a new circuit on 6-22/p400 in which the voltage of the source battery is doubled to 24v and a coil or coils are added across the coil of the relay.

Well, I tried the 24v source with much success, although I picked a bigger project which has not displayed any COP > 1 benefits but rather has been reconditioning a dead (for 9 years) deep-cycle marine battery. That in itself has been a minor miracle! The charge battery was not responding to a regular charger and remained about 6.5v. I took 4 new 'disposable' (not if I can help it!) heavy duty 6v lamp batteries and parallel wired them for 24v as the source. After a week of continuous charging with the basic Ihmhotep car relay circuit, the charge battery is up to 10.5v and the source is down to 15.5v But now that the charge battery is reaching full capacity and the source voltage is losing it's potential edge over the charge battery, the source battery voltage is dropping much faster and the charge voltage is slowing it's ascent.

Now I've acquired two ignition coils and want to try and add them. I ran jumpers from the coil contacts on the relay, i.e. 85 and 86 to the positive and negative of the ignition coil primary (no connection made to either the HV/+ output or case/-) Nothing happened in Neon only/no charge battery test mode (no buzz nor light). Then I tried a very simple coil in parallel with the coil connections - take the 22 gauge spool from a Radio Shack magnetic wire kit, carefully pull out the ends and scrape them and you've got a fairly robust air core coil. Same results. I'm thinking that these coils being bigger than the relay coil may be somehow overwhelming the smaller coil's ability to generate a magnetic field when wired in parallel. I'm still learning about the how impedance, resistance and capacitance of a big coil effects this circuit, but suspect that here's where I'm failing.

So my questions are as follows; first, am I wiring the additional coils in correctly? maybe an additional coil should be in the circuit in series with 87a and the positive to the source battery instead? Do I need some additional components to balance the big coil(s) with the little relay coil? In the case of an ignition coil, is there a way to recover more energy coming out of the secondary coil HV+/case- instead of lighting CFLs with it? Or if no connections to secondary exist, does the Back-EMF HV spike feed back through the primary coil as a reverse voltage?

Oh and...not at the moment a very important question to what I'm doing...but speculative - has anyone tried to put another big coil on the 87 - 30 power cycle (not to drive a CFL load, like Lidmotor did) as well as one on the 87a - 30 side and channel the two spikes to the battery - kind of like a two cycle engine?

Any input would be much appreciated. Thanks.

- Godfrey
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  #2  
Old 08-14-2010, 02:13 AM
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sucahyo sucahyo is offline
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I did, it melt the contact point and jam the relay. I use very cheap relay, but I also read other experience the same thing.

When we add coil the output increase considerably. But the spark make it difficult to keep the relay running. Mine always stop after some minutes.

As result I use solid state now that produce much faster charge than relay. The reason is because relay is slow. While coil will add power, it produce less overall.

Example
Relay = 100 unit at 5 Hz
Solid state = 1 unit at 5000Hz

The end result is relay produce 500 unit a second where solid state produce 5000 unit per second. Solid state win.

In term of reliability and noise production, solid state version win too.

My solid state conventional efficiency is at least 45% now.


Here is my video showing spark when adding car coil
YouTube - Unwanted spike in a relay

I have two circuit, but I forget which one I use in video.


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  #3  
Old 08-14-2010, 04:56 PM
Godfrey Godfrey is offline
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My Setup/PCB

Hi,

Thanks for your post, Sucahyo! From looking at your circuit, I think I've got the same connections - parallel with the relay coil. But my coil causes the circuit to fail. A simple, non-polarized induction air coil also causes the circuit to fail.

Thanks for the tips. I see you used a resistor and capacitor across coil as a snuffer to eliminate the arcing which caused your relay to melt.

I'm still scratching my head over this one, though. I've attached pics of my setup.

If anyone can tell me where I'm going wrong, I'd appreciate it. Thanks.

- Godfrey
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Car Relay Charger.jpg (401.9 KB, 217 views)
File Type: jpg Relay Circuit PCB.jpg (548.1 KB, 138 views)
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  #4  
Old 08-16-2010, 04:43 AM
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sucahyo sucahyo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
I see you used a resistor and capacitor across coil as a snuffer to eliminate the arcing which caused your relay to melt.
No, notice that the connection is different. The one with capacitor is more reliable but slower. Capacitor and resistor are control of how long the relay will turned on. But it won't prevent melting.

I also experience similar problem with my first one. Try my capacitor version.

BTW, I think your diode is much too small. Imagine if 1 amp at 12V is running trough the coil then you shut it down to 24V battery. You still need at least diode that allow 500mA to pass trough. From the picture I imagine it has 100mA rating.
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Old 08-16-2010, 08:14 AM
Godfrey Godfrey is offline
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PCB Diagram attached

Hi Sucahyo,

Thanks for your post!

Quote:
No, notice that the connection is different.
Yes, I see what youíre saying now, the second circuit powers the ignition coil from the normally open connection, instead of the normally closed one.

Wouldnít that second circuit produce two alternately timed spikes?

I now think the induction coil I was originally control testing against the ignition coil, is shorting out. I just swapped it for smaller induction coil, which I know works, and the circuit runs normally. Itís hard to observe any performance boost, however. In, fact when the charge battery is disconnected, in neon only test mode, the light dims when I add the coil.

Connecting my ignition coil still prevents the circuit from working. Itís a really cheapo UC-12T, but should work.

BTW, I just want to confirm - you are not connecting the HV of the ignition coil secondary to anything, just the two normal + and Ė terminals, right?

I wasnít sure how apparent the connections were on my earlier PCB pic, so Iíve attached an additional diagram that makes it clear.

The only difference I see in your first circuit from mine, besides leaving out the neon and switch, is that you connect the negative power coming in from the source battery to 30 on the relay. Mine runs to 87a by way of the switch. This doesnít really make a difference until making the modifications of your circuit 2, when itís essential for switching properly back and fourth from 87a to 87. I think I may also have the poles on the coil reversed, but Iíve already tested swapping the pole connections on my ignition coil and it yields the same results. So Iím still stumped, but at least I got one small coil to work with my circuit.

Quote:
I use very cheap relay
Me too, itís only rated for 40 amps, and very generic.

Quote:
As result I use solid state now that produce much faster charge than relay.
Iíve been working on a 555 pulser circuit myself. Can you share a schematic?

I would still like to get my relay circuit which is similar to your first one, working with an ignition coil and therefore want to get to the bottom of where things are going wrong at the moment.

Quote:
Capacitor and resistor are control of how long the relay will turned on.
Do you mean it controls the actual on time duration? Or are you talking about frequency of oscillation?

Quote:
Try my capacitor version.
I will! Thanks.

Godfrey
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File Type: jpg Relay Ch PCB Diag.jpg (67.4 KB, 137 views)
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Old 08-16-2010, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
Yes, I see what you’re saying now, the second circuit powers the ignition coil from the normally open connection, instead of the normally closed one.

Wouldn’t that second circuit produce two alternately timed spikes?
Yes, I would only collect the spike from the car coil.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
I now think the induction coil I was originally control testing against the ignition coil, is shorting out. I just swapped it for smaller induction coil, which I know works, and the circuit runs normally. It’s hard to observe any performance boost, however. In, fact when the charge battery is disconnected, in neon only test mode, the light dims when I add the coil.
Mine jammed before I observe the charging effect. I would not dare to test it on battery with such spark though ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
Connecting my ignition coil still prevents the circuit from working. It’s a really cheapo UC-12T, but should work.
Mine is $0.3 one. You can tighten or loosen the spring to make it self oscillate in case you use first version.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
BTW, I just want to confirm - you are not connecting the HV of the ignition coil secondary to anything, just the two normal + and – terminals, right?
I connect it CFL too. I also use transformer too, turn down your volume:
YouTube - Neon driver using Imhotep circuit, 90mA !


Quote:
Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
The only difference I see in your first circuit from mine, besides leaving out the neon and switch, is that you connect the negative power coming in from the source battery to 30 on the relay.
I keep changing the wiring that my actual circuit may be different from picture , as long as it works it is fine.

You don't need to concern car coil polarity if you don't run it for days. If it is, make sure it is the common leg that connect to battery positive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
I’ve been working on a 555 pulser circuit myself. Can you share a schematic?
I keep busting 555 that I prefer this circuit now, ignore the bottom diode:


or this:




Quote:
Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
Do you mean it controls the actual on time duration? Or are you talking about frequency of oscillation?
On time will affect frequency. The off time is always brief.
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Old 08-17-2010, 09:50 AM
Godfrey Godfrey is offline
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Hi Sucahyo,

Thanks for the schematics! Will analyze further.

Quote:
Yes, I would only collect the spike from the car coil.
So where is that relay coil spark going? Is it maybe helping cause:

Quote:
Mine jammed before I observe the charging effect. I would not dare to test it on battery with such spark though
You don't show a neon in your circuits. Are you using one as a safe outlet for surges?

Quote:
BTW, I think your diode is much too small.
I thought 1N 4007's were sufficient. Not so?

Quote:
I connect it CFL too.
I'm still not getting why my ignition coil causes my circuit to fail. I have attached a schematic for further clarity. As you can see, there is no connection to the secondary. Maybe this needs a load like a CFL?

One test that just worked for me was to put the coil where the charge battery is. This could actually be a promising option. Feed the high voltage spikes coming from the relay coil into the primary of the ignition coil, then the spikes from its secondary could feed the battery. I think I may combine your capacitor feature with this idea and see what develops. The circuit will need an additional diode channel the second spike correctly.

Also, I might try a circuit firing two coils...one off 87 and the other off 87a. If I can pull that off, it would double the frequency as well as the power spikes.

Godfrey
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File Type: jpg Car Relay Charger Sh 01.jpg (5.4 KB, 117 views)
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Old 08-18-2010, 03:46 AM
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sucahyo sucahyo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
So where is that relay coil spark going? Is it maybe helping cause:

You don't show a neon in your circuits. Are you using one as a safe outlet for surges?
I don't use neon because neon reduce overall punch. My car coil do have load.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
I thought 1N 4007's were sufficient. Not so?
It is rated only 100mA. Replace it with 2Amp diode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
I'm still not getting why my ignition coil causes my circuit to fail. I have attached a schematic for further clarity. As you can see, there is no connection to the secondary. Maybe this needs a load like a CFL?
I just try it, I can't make it work without capacitor, maybe not enough power from the battery. I think you should try the capacitor one. Just put any capacitor above 10uF in parallel with 85 and 86, and see what happen. Use higher capacitance to get longer ON time or 1K potentiometer in series. Put the coil between 85 and 87.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
One test that just worked for me was to put the coil where the charge battery is.
I tried it but have no success. Maybe too little amperage to drive it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
Also, I might try a circuit firing two coils...one off 87 and the other off 87a. If I can pull that off, it would double the frequency as well as the power spikes.
I think the one at 87A will prevent self oscillation, but see if you can work it out.
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Old 08-18-2010, 11:24 AM
Godfrey Godfrey is offline
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Updated/published photos

Hi Sucahyo,

Thanks for your post!

I just realized that my last diagram posted is not only badly formatted, but also wrong!

Since my basic relay charger is a successful replication of Imhotepís, here are my updated pics, published, for the benefit of other readers:

Here is my schematic of Imhotepís originally published circuit:



Photo of my battery charger:



Closeup of the PCB:



A diagram of the PCB connections:



A schematic of the circuit augmentations with references back to the PCB connections:



Quote:
It is rated only 100mA. Replace it with 2Amp diode.
Good tip. Thanks!

Quote:
I think you should try the capacitor one. Just put any capacitor above 10uF in parallel with 85 and 86, and see what happen. Use higher capacitance to get longer ON time or 1K potentiometer in series.
I think Iíll try this, before I move the coil, first.

Quote:
Put the coil between 85 and 87.
Ok, will try this also.

Quote:
I think the one at 87A will prevent self oscillation, but see if you can work it out.
Yes, Iíll do that too, and update you.

Quote:
I keep busting 555
IMO, the 555 pulser part of the charger circuit should be completely isolated from the resonant generator portion by use of an opto-isolator, etc., to spare it from voltage spikes.

- Godfrey
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Old 08-19-2010, 01:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
IMO, the 555 pulser part of the charger circuit should be completely isolated from the resonant generator portion by use of an opto-isolator, etc., to spare it from voltage spikes.
I don't think it would help. I busted many 12V fan just because I spark the output, while my circuit still survive. It happen because the 12V fan use same power source. Spike EMP can travel bypassing diode or capacitor. Having independent power supply is not practical for me.

Besides, I highly believe that opto coupler will muffle the output considerably. If you read spec, the fastest opto coupler is in micro second range while transistor is in nano second range. We need very fast switching to get radiant. Besides, people usually use transistor that is more expensive than 555. Neon is their protection. I don't use it because my circuit rarely busted if I am carefull.


Good luck with the project .
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Last edited by sucahyo; 08-19-2010 at 01:36 AM.
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  #11  
Old 08-20-2010, 03:29 AM
Godfrey Godfrey is offline
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Spike path

Hi Sucahyo,

Thanks for your post!

Quote:
I spark the output
You mean you spark across a gap?

Quote:
Spike EMP can travel bypassing diode or capacitor.
You mean it can still get past something like this and blow the chip?



Quote:
We need very fast switching to get radiant.
What frequency range do you think is optimal for an ignition coil?

- Godfrey
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Old 08-20-2010, 07:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
You mean you spark across a gap?
No, spark that happen when we connect a charged battery while the circuit is running. Spark on secondary do not kill my 555.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
You mean it can still get past something like this and blow the chip?
Yes. But a 555 controlled 2N3055 usually survive because of its poor switching.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
What frequency range do you think is optimal for an ignition coil?
At the ignition coil intended frequency. Usually under 100Hz.
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Old 08-23-2010, 09:46 AM
Godfrey Godfrey is offline
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Hi Sucahyo,

Thanks for your post!

I've been busy working on a new test board with terminal connections so I can change things around easily. Looks like I committed to PCB too soon Besides, the harness for the relay has big wires which are hard to adapt to the small holes of the PCB. A board with barrier terminal strips can handle that meaty wire much better.

I've been doodling up some new schematics for the scenarios we've previously discussed. Will post updates on my progress soon.

Meanwhile, using the existing Imhotep circuit, I successfully topped off the charge of a small SLA battery that been failing earlier to charge past about 10.5V using only a 12 volt battery for the source. Earlier, when the battery didn't charge any more, I then tried to top it off with a standard trickle charger and it failed to do so. Now with the augmentation of doubling the source battery voltage, this battery tops off nicely and only took hours (several) instead of days to work. This battery had obviously been reconditioned to accept only a radiant charge from being subjected earlier to the Imhotep circuit.

I have to be fair about the significance of my dead marine battery reconditioning success. The charging is slow - So what! The 4 little disposable 6 volt, not even Alkaline, batteries are really no match, capacity-wise, for this big marine deep cycle battery. Yet, in a week of continuous charging, it went from a dead 6.5 volts, all the way to lively 10.5 volts. That's pretty decent performance. Here it is working:



The limitations I have experienced, do illustrate that the radiant energy effect does not magically cancel out the need for an adequately sized source battery to match the one being charged.

Sparks and heat: I also wanted to stress that my relay still feels absolutely cool to the touch even after days of continuous running. Here it is running in test mode, disconnected from the charge battery and lighting up the neon bulb:



Test mode is the only time, so far, that I can see a spark in the relay at all. I have cut a little window and glued clear plastic over it, so I can keep an eye on the relay contacts. Here is a closeup with a little blue spark visible on the right (the yellow sparkle on the left is just room light shinning off curvature of a brass contact).



And here is the ignition coil that causes the circuit to fail when connected:



Quote:
I would only collect the spike from the car coil.
I've been thinking about this. If you don't use the relay coil spike, shouldn't it be dealt with by putting a protection diode across like this:

http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/images/diopro.gif

I came across some images of yours that also seem relevant to our discussion.

http://a.imageshack.us/img116/6789/r...otepno2fc7.png
http://a.imageshack.us/img75/2208/re...otepno3ny3.png
http://a.imageshack.us/img184/8868/r...otepno4hm1.png

Can you tell where to find your original thread describing them?

- Godfrey
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Last edited by Godfrey; 08-23-2010 at 10:25 AM. Reason: oops
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Old 08-24-2010, 04:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
Meanwhile, using the existing Imhotep circuit, I successfully topped off the charge of a small SLA battery that been failing earlier to charge past about 10.5V using only a 12 volt battery for the source.
Congratulation .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
The limitations I have experienced, do illustrate that the radiant energy effect does not magically cancel out the need for an adequately sized source battery to match the one being charged.
You meant capacity or voltage? Because we are able to charge 12V battery with 3V source with radiant method.

I have two way to charge a battery


- the top is for conditioning (almost never do that because the bottom one also do it)
- the bottom for everyday charging

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
Sparks and heat: I also wanted to stress that my relay still feels absolutely cool to the touch even after days of continuous running. Here it is running in test mode, disconnected from the charge battery and lighting up the neon bulb:
That is weird, what is the current consumption?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
I've been thinking about this. If you don't use the relay coil spike, shouldn't it be dealt with by putting a protection diode across like this:

http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/images/diopro.gif
Yes, that is the way to save transistor. But I don't think we need that. Putting a diode like that kill the radiant and waste them.

More importantly, it force the coil to draw more power. Notice that the coil consumption will at least double if you do that. Current consumption on a radiant circuit will usually increase if you utilize or diode short the radiant part. My stingo do not but self oscillation terminate instead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
I came across some images of yours that also seem relevant to our discussion. Can you tell where to find your original thread describing them?
Here
http://www.energeticforum.com/40036-post2096.html

still learning at that time, still wondering now, but I believe that is the flow.
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Old 08-25-2010, 08:47 AM
Godfrey Godfrey is offline
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Hi Sucahyo,

Thanks for your post!

Quote:
You meant capacity or voltage?
I meant capacity.

Quote:
Because we are able to charge 12V battery with 3V source with radiant method.
That's incredible! Haven't seen anywhere near that kind of performance yet.

Quote:
the bottom for everyday charging
Is this the finalized circuit for your 'Stingo'?

Quote:
That is weird
Really? I thought that was a common phenominon of radiant circuits. Just to clarify, I'm using 'cool' here not to mean cold, but complete absence of the typical warmth a circuit develops after running for awhile. My basic Imhotep circuit runs continuously for many days without developing any apparent warmth in the relay, etc. at all.

Quote:
what is the current consumption?
Haven't measured current yet on my multimeter during tests so far. I'll let you know how that works out when I run my next tests.

Quote:
My stingo do not but self oscillation terminate instead.
Sorry, I'm not quite understanding. Are you saying the Stingo circuit doesn't protect the transistors with a diode? What mechanism terminates the self oscillation?

Here is my proto board w/terminal strips:



I decided to start by trying some basic configs (before incorporating your cap/pot idea).

This is the first circuit I've been testing (not an approach you recommended, but wanted to rule it out):



Here is a diagram of the terminal board:



This time the coil worked. In fact, disconnecting the coil turned off the circuit. But the results were mixed. The neon does not light in test mode. I can't get a neon bulb or CFL to light if attached to the Charge Battery leads. The spikes seem to occur, however.

It's difficult to measure results. Got any tips for detecting radiant spikes?

- Godfrey
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Last edited by Godfrey; 08-25-2010 at 09:26 AM. Reason: Oops, typo!
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Old 08-26-2010, 03:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
Is this the finalized circuit for your 'Stingo'?
The resistor value need to be changed according to application. I use it for many application. But all the position is settled. The output diode also depend on application. I do not use any if I just want to produce spark.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
Really? I thought that was a common phenominon of radiant circuits. Just to clarify, I'm using 'cool' here not to mean cold, but complete absence of the typical warmth a circuit develops after running for awhile. My basic Imhotep circuit runs continuously for many days without developing any apparent warmth in the relay, etc. at all.
I ask because spark is hot. Suppressing spark heat usually is a problem.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
Sorry, I'm not quite understanding. Are you saying the Stingo circuit doesn't protect the transistors with a diode? What mechanism terminates the self oscillation?
My stingo only fried the transistor if there are electrical short or too much amp flowing. It stop oscillating if the output being shorted or have much lower impedance compared to the coil impedance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
This is the first circuit I've been testing (not an approach you recommended, but wanted to rule it out):



This time the coil worked. In fact, disconnecting the coil turned off the circuit. But the results were mixed. The neon does not light in test mode.
I think you will have less output power than your previous circuit because you are now adding both coil in series. The power of this kind of circuit is directly related to your coil impedance. Low impedance = higher output power. Notice that my circuit connect the car coil to battery positive and negative directly upon ON condition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
It's difficult to measure results. Got any tips for detecting radiant spikes?
Some use scope, some use a neon bulb:
YouTube - Single coil stingo lighting up neon bulb
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Old 08-26-2010, 08:11 PM
Godfrey Godfrey is offline
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Hi Sucahyo,

Thanks for your post!

Quote:
The resistor value need to be changed according to application. I use it for many application. But all the position is settled. The output diode also depend on application. I do not use any if I just want to produce spark.
Yes, I saw your discussion on another board about using it as a zapper. Iím very interested in talking to you about the health results youíve experienced, but perhaps thatís too much of a digression, at the moment. for the subject of this thread.

Quote:
I ask because spark is hot. Suppressing spark heat usually is a problem.
My replication of the basic Imhotep circuit does not visibly spark at all when propperly connected. I only see a spark when the charging battery is disconnected, even with the neon in place and lighting up.

Here it is again with the modification of power going to 30/common:


Which works out to this on my new board:



Here is the board being hooked up by one of my lab assistants with that little SLA battery I mentioned previously. Donít worry she doesnít allow me anywhere near the charger when itís actually running




Quote:
I think you will have less output power than your previous circuit because you are now adding both coil in series. The power of this kind of circuit is directly related to your coil impedance.
Exactly so. The output would not light a neon bulb.

Quote:
Low impedance = higher output power. Notice that my circuit connect the car coil to battery positive and negative directly upon ON condition.
Iím still learning about impedance, but wonít that increase with any coil as the size/windings do?

Quote:
Some use scope, some use a neon bulb.
Thanks, been using that neon test. Iíd love to have the budget for a good scope. My antique Heathkit one is more a paperweight than a pracical instrument

- Godfrey
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Old 08-27-2010, 04:23 AM
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sucahyo sucahyo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
Here is the board being hooked up by one of my lab assistants with that little SLA battery I mentioned previously. Don’t worry she doesn’t allow me anywhere near the charger when it’s actually running
Some say cat can detect healthy radiant (yes it can produce bad radiant too). When you have cat around your device, you have a switching mechanism reaching MHz. Don't ignore her advice .

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Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
I’m still learning about impedance, but won’t that increase with any coil as the size/windings do?
You mean depend? yes. Switching car coil would give you big spark and will surely lit the neon bulb output.

I still don't have scope too, we can reach more efficient circuit one way or another .
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Old 08-28-2010, 03:16 AM
Godfrey Godfrey is offline
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Hi Sucahyo,

Thanks for your post!

Iíve just put together something like the second relay circuit you posted earlier with the capacitor and potentiometer.

The relay coil is measuring around 90 Ohms, so I pre-tuned my 1k 15 turn trim pot to around 40. The only cap I had that is 47uF is an electrolytic rated for 200V.

When I turn it on, the relay oscillations are high and faint, and then gradually fade off. A
few turns of adjustment on the potentiometer donít seem to make any difference and neither does whether the ignition coil is connected or not.

When I leave the cap and Vr out of the circuit, the relay oscillates normally, but neither the charging battery output, nor HV output on the car coil light a neon.

Iím starting to wonder about these cheapo car coils I picked up on eBay. Tomorrow, Iím going to attempt scavenging a MOT and test that as a comparison.

Here is the schematic:



And a diagram of the terminal board:



Please let me know if you see anything amiss.

- Godfrey
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Old 08-28-2010, 03:21 AM
Godfrey Godfrey is offline
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Hi Sucahyo,

Thanks for your post!

Iíve just put together something like the second relay circuit you posted earlier with the capacitor and potentiometer.

The relay coil is measuring around 90 Ohms, so I pre-tuned my 1k 15 turn trim pot to around 40. The only cap I had that is 47uF is an electrolytic rated for 200V.

When I turn it on, the relay oscillations are high and faint, and then gradually fade off. A
few turns of adjustment on the potentiometer donít seem to make any difference and neither does whether the ignition coil is connected or not.

When I leave the cap and Vr out of the circuit, the relay oscillates normally, but neither the charging battery output, nor HV output on the car coil light a neon.

Iím starting to wonder about these cheapo car coils I picked up on eBay. Tomorrow, Iím going to attempt scavenging a MOT and test that as a comparison.

Here is the schematic:



And a diagram of the terminal board:



Please let me know if you see anything amiss.

- Godfrey
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Old 08-30-2010, 02:31 PM
Godfrey Godfrey is offline
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Here is an update on my own investigations for what it's worth. I have just apparently burned out a relay. It's not completely dead, but it doesn't work for more than a second or so. It's cheap to replace and I'm glad I incorporated a harness in my setup so I just have to unplug the relay and swap it out.

Using the normally open contact on the relay to drive a second coil has so far proved problematic. I have observed that too much of the back EMF activity is happening in the circuit, because of the voltage collapse in the relay coil, when the normally open contact actually closes. As a consequence, the current and voltage fed to the additional coil is poor. The back emf is also not being channeled very well to the charging battery and therefore causes sparking and excessive heat to happen on the relay.

An expanded circuit that actually works may involve more that one relay. We'll see. I still would like to here from more people who have added more coils to this circuit successfully.

The basic relay circuit has worked very well for me. I will continue to charge batteries with it. What remains its real charm is that the parts are easy to scrounge from local junk. The relays are also available at the auto parts stores as well as Radio Shack in my area.

- Godfrey
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Old 08-30-2010, 05:35 PM
Godfrey Godfrey is offline
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This works!

I just revived that relay by cleaning the carbon off the contacts, though it's still acting dicy, so I'll be ordering some cheap replacements soon.

Meanwhile, this is the final scenario I wanted to test, and it does indeed work with that ignition coil I've been using all along and suspecting. I merely used the basic relay circuit and replaced the charging battery with the car coil's primary terminals. Then I hooked up a neon bulb between the HV + output of the coil and its regular negative terminal, and it lit up very brightly when the circuit was turned on. Here's a schematic of it:



The fact that the ignition coil fires at all has obviously got more to do with the radiant effect and high voltage than the low current being output. I haven't done more testing than that, but I intend to see if I can light a CFL next. Then, I've already fashioned a bridge rectifier to try that output on a battery. I also want to measure the current draw on the source battery, etc. I'll post more as things develop.

This development is interesting enough. It means the relay circuit can generate HV pulses powerful enough to be the initial drive for another HV step up device. Hmmm I'm thinking Tesla Coil possibilities

- Godfrey
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Old 08-31-2010, 03:36 AM
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sucahyo sucahyo is offline
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Interesting progress .

When you lit neon bulb with high power it will turn purple. It seems the ouput is shared between the neon bulb and the car coil.


I don't think you can charge a battery with car coil output though because it would lack of current.

Contact need to be cleaned regularly. More so with more output.
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Old 09-06-2010, 04:04 PM
Godfrey Godfrey is offline
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Hi All,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sucahyo
I don't think you can charge a battery with car coil output though because it would lack of current.
It lit a neon bulb brightly. I can't tell what color my neon bulbs are burning because they're the kind embedded in red plastic, so the light's red no matter what.

You are right, Sucahyo, car coil power output was not sufficient to light a CFL

But here is the circuit that I think should work for adding a big coil:



I've got my test board all setup so it's easy to add a coil or just use the basic car relay circuit, which should not mind the extra diodes. They seem to help, however, when a coil is added by stabilizing the current flow and directing Back EMF from both auto and relay coil properly to the charge battery.

That said, I'm having problems with the relays I just bought and so have not tested extensively.

I'm also going to add the cap and pot across the relay coil again to experiment with Sucahyo's method to control frequency. It still resembles an RC coil snubber to me, and therefore must clamp/dissipate some of the back EMF coming from the relay coil.

I also just picked up the other relay from the parts list for Imhotep Lite/CFL circuit. I'm going to see if this 9v relay, with a 500 Ohm coil and contacts rated for house voltage/current behaves better when driving an ignition coil as appears to be the case so far from the replications others have done. The car relay's small 90 Ohm coil may be the cause of some of the problems I've been experiencing with some of the circuits I've tried and documented here.

I will post any interesting developments and still encourage others to chime in with their own relevant findings.

Godfrey out.
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Old 09-07-2010, 01:55 AM
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sucahyo sucahyo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
It lit a neon bulb brightly. I can't tell what color my neon bulbs are burning because they're the kind embedded in red plastic, so the light's red no matter what.
When the output voltage increase, it can light purple too:
YouTube - Purple flashing show off


Quote:
Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
But here is the circuit that I think should work for adding a big coil:

My relay would never turn on the car coil with that configuration. That is the reason I add capacitor and resistor. To allow longer relay on time.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
The car relay's small 90 Ohm coil may be the cause of some of the problems I've been experiencing with some of the circuits I've tried and documented here.
My ohmmeter messed up so I can not measure my car coil impedance, but I remember it to be smaller than 10 ohm. Brand is Mallory pro.
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