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 Renewable Energy Discussion on various alternative energy, renewable energy, & free energy technologies. Also any discussion about the environment, global warming, and other related topics are welcome here.

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#1
06-30-2010, 02:28 PM
 Armagdn03 Silver Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 919
Capacitive Sink Hole

Environmental capacitive coupling

Capacity in general is an interesting beast, of which I have yet to wrap my mind around. Because of this my understanding is incomplete, and so my theories, are as always flawed. This being said, here are a few mental experiments which may help some move a step closer to their energy independence goals.

If you imagine a parallel plate capacitor, You know that the distance between the plates directly relates to the capacitance in a linear way. This is an interesting topic of conversation in and of itself, and we will return to this topic, but for now it is a starting point.

Imagine instead of plates, capacitive point particles, or spheres. Each has a free space capacitance, or a capacitance relevant to the environment in which it floats.

The field intensity around this particle or sphere is known to decrease with the inverse square of the distance, this is known as the inverse squared law. So for example, if you had a sphere charged to 16 volts, and doubled your radius and took a potential measurement you would find a potential value of 4.

This attribute affects this point particle spheres ability to affect its environment, and the effect the environment has on it. Now let’s wade through some mental experiments.

Imagine a parallel plate capacitor. Charge it up to an arbitrary value. Now, attempt to discharge only one plate of the capacitor by touching it to ground. Obviously this is not possible, nearly 100% of the charge on one plate, is within very close proximity to the other, and within their respective fields, they tightly hold onto their charges. This is one extreme.

Now imagine two spheres miles apart, charged to an arbitrary value. Because they are so far from one another, they really do not sit within the same environment, and so have very little if any mutual relation. Try and discharge one side of this capacitor, It will be quite easy, and the path of discharge will be to an object of differing potential. This is the other extreme of the spectrum. Here the person could touch the point charge (vandegraaff sphere) and because of her lower potential, the sphere will discharge into her and equalize.

Now imagine Two spheres separated by some distance. This distance equals 2 doublings of the radius of each of the individual spheres. Therefore, if you have one of the spheres charged to 64v, the other will sit inside this inverse squared field and feel a strength of only 4v. (one doubling of the radius away and we would feel 16, two away and we feel 4) Again one could view each of these spheres as one plate of a capacitor.

One could charge each of these spheres to say….64v. Now try the same as above, Try to discharge one side only of our capacitor. If you were to leave one side charged to +64v, then try to discharge the other side, you would find that you could only discharge it to -4v. This is because this distance (2 doubling of the radius) the +64v spheres field has a decreased field strength of +4v. Thus the second sphere when discharged will only discharge to the -4 level, to balance with its environment.

As you can see, because we have caused increased separation between the spheres, they have less “holding” power on each other. As the spheres get closer, they are immersed more and more in each others influence, and they behave more and more like a parallel plate capacitor. As they move further and further apart they behave more like individual point charges. The further they separate, the less they are coactively connected to one another, and the more they are coactively connected to their environment.

As the spheres move further and further apart, they become more and more like monopole entities. Their capacity is more and more in relation to their environment than to each other. As they increasingly relate to their environment, they will create their own equal and opposite poles. For example, if you had an individual sphere charged to 64v, then placed very near to it a piece of metal, you would induce an equal and opposite charge on the surface of that new object, this is known as electrostatic induction.

(object C induces equal and opposite charge on object X)

This is an important mechanism to consider as it allows, the spheres become independent entities, which now look to the environment for their equal and opposite charges rather than each other. You have shifted away from a closed capacitive system, to one that is open and interacts with the environment. This is the beginning of a “charge sinkhole” condition in which energy is siphoned from the surrounding area.
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#2
06-30-2010, 03:36 PM
 Michael John Nunnerley Gold Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 1,193
Capacitor with two potencials

Hi you are getting into an area that I have been working on for some time, let me explain what I have developed.

Take an aluminium cylinder and place inside a rod electrode in its center, seal the two ends and creat a vacuum inside. Now take another cylinder of bigger diameter and place over the evacuated cylinder.

Now apply a HV+ to the rod in the vacuum (6kv) and connect the negative to the vacuum cylinder. Now apply another HV+ to the outer cylinder (30kv) and the negative to the vacuum cylinder creating a common negative.

Now what do we have, two different environments with two different potencials and a common ground point of separation. Now it will be interesting to see what you think will happen.

Mike
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#3
06-30-2010, 04:09 PM
 Armagdn03 Silver Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 919
Slide 1

The next slides will be a progression of thought, mostly pictorial, with an explanation.

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/b...3/IMG_4946.jpg

1) In this photo, you can see your average “Tesla” style transformer. Because its spark gap allows current to flow in both directions, it will create an oscillating potential within the capacitive top load, it will alternate between positive and negative values with respect to ground.
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Last edited by Armagdn03; 06-30-2010 at 04:11 PM.
#4
06-30-2010, 04:09 PM
 Armagdn03 Silver Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 919
Slide 2

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/b...3/IMG_4947.jpg

2) Here we have inserted an impedance gap (negative resistance, spark gap etc…) which has a directional quality to it much like a diode. Depending on how we orient things, it will allow either positive or negative charges only to pass through. Due to this, our top load will see only either positive or negative charges, not both, per half wave rectification.
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Last edited by Armagdn03; 06-30-2010 at 04:14 PM.
#5
06-30-2010, 04:10 PM
 Armagdn03 Silver Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 919
slide 3

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/b...3/IMG_4949.jpg

3) We can replace the spherical top load with one side of a parallel plate capacitor. The plate connected to the Tesla transformer with rectifier will induce an equal and opposite charge onto the second plate. But what will this induced charge look like? In the “zoomed” in section, we can see that there will be a charge distribution within the second plate. This does not equalize within itself because it is held in place by the first plate. Equally the first plate and second plate cannot equalize.
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Last edited by Armagdn03; 06-30-2010 at 04:22 PM.
#6
06-30-2010, 04:16 PM
 Armagdn03 Silver Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 919
Slide 4

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/b...3/IMG_4948.jpg

4) Here we have connected the second plate to a virtual ground, or large reservoir of free “electrons”. This allows the second plate to charge with equal and opposite charge to the first plate. This second virtual ground must not be the same grounding connection to the first ground or earth ground, or they will complete a circuit, and ground will simply act as a connecting wire. A possibility for this second ground might be an aerial to connect to the atmosphere.

It will be impossible for the virtual ground and the second plate to neutralize into one another due to the presence of the first plate. The first and second plate also cannot neutralize into one another for similar reasons.
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Last edited by Armagdn03; 06-30-2010 at 04:21 PM.
#7
06-30-2010, 04:16 PM
 Armagdn03 Silver Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 919
Slide 5

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/b...3/IMG_4951.jpg

5) A second impedance gap may be inserted between the virtual ground and the second plate of the capacitor. When an impulse is given to the first plate charging it, it causes a breakdown in the second gap, and a rush of “free” charge enters the second plate of the capacitor in an effort to equalize the charges. This leaves the virtual ground, or possibly the aerial with a net charge on it. If it does not dissipate this charge, then it may no longer act as a suitable donor of charge. Because of this second gap, the parallel plate capacitor is allowed to discharge by neutralizing its respective positive and negative charges into each other, overcoming the neutralization problem posed in #3 and #4
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Last edited by Armagdn03; 06-30-2010 at 08:34 PM.
#8
06-30-2010, 04:24 PM
 Armagdn03 Silver Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 919
Slide 6

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/b...3/IMG_4954.jpg

6) In order to keep the second virtual ground, or aerial near neutral, it must itself continually discharge. If sharp peaks are added to it, it will discharge itself rather easily into the local atmosphere dissipating more and more charge as the voltage climbs (which it will, till it reaches a maintained "idling voltage). This allows it to continually either accept or dissipate charge depending on how you build.
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Last edited by Armagdn03; 06-30-2010 at 08:35 PM.
#9
06-30-2010, 04:25 PM
 Armagdn03 Silver Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 919
Slide 7

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/b...3/IMG_4952.jpg

Here is another variation. Here we have two earth grounds separated by a distance. It would be disadvantageous to have one ground “sucking” up charge from the ground while the other is injecting charge, as this would form a complete circuit, which we do not want (rather we want an open configuration which interacts with the local environment). In order to solve this dilemma, we treat the system as a delay line (which it already is) and set its electrical length to ¾ or 270 degrees of the fundamental wavelength of the system. This allows for a 90 degree difference between the two grounds. As one ground “sucks” charge, the other is neutral, then the first becomes neutral, while the second injects charge into the ground. This allows for earth ground to be used for both connections.
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#10
06-30-2010, 04:29 PM
 Armagdn03 Silver Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 919
Notes:

Notice that possibly the most important aspect of this device is UNIDIRECTIONAL characteristic to the impedance gap. This must not allow any reversal of current.

This device will possibly build up to a steady state. Imagine the first impulse from the primary creating a large surge in the secondary of the Tesla transformer. This surge will pass through the rectifying impedance gap, charging the first plate of capacitor. Simultaneously the impedance gap between the second ground and the second plate of the capacitor will fire. This process will leave the second ground, or aerial sitting at a net charge (either positive or negative). It is likely that this first impulse will leave this net charge on the virtual ground at a relatively low voltage. The next blast from the primary will see an even greater impedance to its unidirectional path because of the charge left on the virtual ground. However the impulse is an inductive collapse by nature (if constructed correctly) and will overcome any impedance. This will boost the virtual ground to an even higher voltage state. This process will continue until the differential between the local atmosphere and the aerial are vast enough to cause easy conduction between them. At this point there will essentially be a solid connection between aerial and atmosphere, creating a good solid "ground" to the air. This will take multiple successive impulses from the primary.

Imagine "Apparatus for the utilization of radiant energy". Instead of receiving energy from an outside source like a battery, the aerial could be of the nature described above, or could be a second apparatus set near this one. The initial impulses from the atmosphere itself, can jump start the system, then you the inventors could figure out what to do with the charge acquired within your parallel plate capacitor.

http://www.cheniere.org/references/TeslaOSC.pdf

http://www.keelynet.com/tesla/00685957.pdf
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Last edited by Armagdn03; 06-30-2010 at 04:47 PM.
#11
06-30-2010, 04:31 PM
 SuperCaviTationIstic Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 339
*************
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Last edited by SuperCaviTationIstic; 07-01-2010 at 12:14 PM.
#12
06-30-2010, 05:00 PM
 Armagdn03 Silver Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 919

The primary circuit should be a discharge of a capacitor with the highest practical stored energy into impedance (inductive) of the lowest practical value, through an impedance gap. This means 1-2 turn primary.

The secondary should have very little inter winding capacitance. This ensures that the energy is forced through the impedance gap, rather than into its own inter winding capacitance. We want this to be an inductive discharge which charges our intended capacity (plate one of parallel plate capacitor) and not our parasitic capacities (inter winding capacitance).
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#13
06-30-2010, 06:22 PM
 erfinder Banned Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 435
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Armagdn03 Additional notes: The primary circuit should be a discharge of a capacitor with the highest practical stored energy into impedance (inductive) of the lowest practical value, through an impedance gap. This means 1-2 turn primary. The secondary should have very little inter winding capacitance. This ensures that the energy is forced through the impedance gap, rather than into its own inter winding capacitance. We want this to be an inductive discharge which charges our intended capacity (plate one of parallel plate capacitor) and not our parasitic capacities (inter winding capacitance).

Finally.... the good stuff....keep it coming...

Regards
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#14
06-30-2010, 07:54 PM
 Armagdn03 Silver Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 919
Erfinder ol Buddy ol Pal!!! Long time no see! I have been on hiatus for a while due to some large life changes, however now i plan to be back in full swing.

Thanks for the comment!
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#15
06-30-2010, 09:08 PM
 vrand Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 468
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Michael John Nunnerley Hi you are getting into an area that I have been working on for some time, let me explain what I have developed. Take an aluminium cylinder and place inside a rod electrode in its center, seal the two ends and creat a vacuum inside. Now take another cylinder of bigger diameter and place over the evacuated cylinder. Now apply a HV+ to the rod in the vacuum (6kv) and connect the negative to the vacuum cylinder. Now apply another HV+ to the outer cylinder (30kv) and the negative to the vacuum cylinder creating a common negative. Now what do we have, two different environments with two different potencials and a common ground point of separation. Now it will be interesting to see what you think will happen. Mike
Sounds similar to Joseph Hiddink's "One Terminal Capacitor"

Joseph Hiddink: One-Terminal Capacitor -- Articles & USP#4095162

Joseph Hiddink is still working on his invention 50 yrs later!

Quote:
 Another object of the invention is to provide the means for producing high potentials which can be positive or negative in nature and which are adapted for use in the study of nuclear structure and nuclear reactions. Still a further object of the invention is to provide a novel and improved means for constuction and operation of a high power particle generator. Another object of the invention is to provide a novel and improved device for generating potentials of either positive or negative nature of such magnitudes so as to attract, bend or repulse radiation. Still another object of the invention is to provide novel and improved construction of a device for generation of potentials of either positive or negative nature, to attract or repulse mass. A further object of the present invention is to provide novel and improved means and its construction for making an inexpensive, yet effective Intense Neutron Generator with possibility for slow to fast neutron emission.
Turning a normal 2-terminal capacitor into a single terminal version.

Regards, Mike R.
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#16
06-30-2010, 09:25 PM
 Armagdn03 Silver Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 919
@ Vrand

VERY VERY SIMILAR!

This method however does not require special connect and disconnect of 2 separate power sources, or plasma tubes. I really like the idea of being able to build with the simplest of materials.

I blew my scope about a month ago, and it has been a fantastic experience.

Hidink is a brilliant concept, that most skim over. Very glad you brought it up, I also was going to mention it, but thought I would do so a bit later on so as not to have an information overload, but thank you!
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#17
06-30-2010, 10:08 PM
 vrand Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 468
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Armagdn03 @ Vrand VERY VERY SIMILAR! This method however does not require special connect and disconnect of 2 separate power sources, or plasma tubes. I really like the idea of being able to build with the simplest of materials. I blew my scope about a month ago, and it has been a fantastic experience. Hidink is a brilliant concept, that most skim over. Very glad you brought it up, I also was going to mention it, but thought I would do so a bit later on so as not to have an information overload, but thank you!
Great news Armagdn03, looking forward to hearing more of your design and experiment

Yeah, Hiddink always had issues with the switching circuit, besides the blowing out the transistors in radios & TV sets in his neighborhood when he pulsed his tubes

His sons are now trying to help him develop his invention. He has access to a garage but needs to put up sheet metal on the walls to make a Faraday cage. In his late 80's(?) he is still going strong.

Be careful, as HV pulses will take out all electronics (sorry to hear about your scope) and wear a mechanical watch, as it would not be affected. Hiddink needed to test outside of the city in the country, and even there he managed to pull a lightning strike, in the clear blue sky (hit a nearby tree).

This is indeed a fascinating field to explore.

Thanks, Mike R.
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Last edited by vrand; 06-30-2010 at 10:10 PM.
#18
06-30-2010, 11:35 PM
 Harvey Gold Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,137
Inverse Square Law

This is how I understand this law to be applied:

"The value of field density at any given distance from a source will be the unity source value multiplied by the the inverse square of the distance'

In the example of two spheres where one is charged to 64V relative to a reference, and the sphere has a radius of r, the unity value is 64V where r = 1. Therefore, the surface of the sphere is 64 * 1/r² where r = 1. Thus, 1/1² = 1 and the surface is 64V everywhere.

Now when we double our distance to 2r we get 64 * 1/2² = 16v

At 3r we get 7.11-> V
At 4r we get 4V
etc.

Now, if we have two spheres that are the same radius, and they are 2r away from each other (center to center) then their surfaces would be touching and all charge would be equalized across both surfaces. Therefore, a differential cannot occur between two spheres of equal size until we exceed a distance of 2r.

Now also, I would like to draw attention to the italicized words above. The 64V must be measurable to some reference. Likewise, if we have two parallel plates, and they are both charged to some value where one is say X and the other is Y in volts, then we can say that a charge exists between those two plates of X - Y volts. But X is relative to a reference and Y is relative to the same reference. Can either plate be discharged to the reference independently of the other plate? Yes it can. Let us put some numbers in those variables and see what happens.

Let X = 100V and let Y = -350V and let our reference = 0V. We find that we have a positive charge on one plate, relative to our reference and a negative charge on the other. The differential between those two charges is 450V. So now we use a wire to connect the 100V plate to our reference; what happens? That plate discharges and now becomes zero volts. So next we remove the wire from that plate. We measure our differential between the two plates and now it is reduced to 350V. Next we attach the wire to the other plate, and that plate too discharges to zero volts to match our reference. The differential at this point between the two plates is zero. So we have effectively discharged the capacitor.

Here is a video of the opposite process - charging a capacitive surface:
Advance This Video To 47 Minutes

But it does help us to understand that something is being moved from place to place with respects to charge.

This video is a bit more sterile, but it does illustrate how charge and voltage are effected by distance and dielectric:

And of course in this video, we see that the charge can in specific cases be stored in the dielectric rather than on the metal.
YouTube - MIT Physics Demo -- Dissectible Capacitor

Here is a video showing the charge staying on the metal rather than in the dielectric:

And here is a nice video that gives some specifics to different types:
YouTube - How a Capacitor Works - by Dr. Oliver Winn

A polarized material (dielectric or conductor) will repel electrons from one surface and attract them to the other.

Excess electrons packed into a region creates tension known as voltage. Conversely, Excess Ions packed into a region also creates tension known as voltage. And likewise, even a group of positrons packed into magnetic containment field can be viewed as having a voltage but trying to measure it could be problematic since positrons are considered to be a form of antimatter

So voltage really is nothing more than a bunch of charges trying to get some elbow room and charge is a group of anything that represents electrical charge within a particular area.

One thing is certain, we have a large variety of methods and means for storing charges
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#19
07-01-2010, 12:20 AM
 cody Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 407
Quote:
 Here is a video showing the charge staying on the metal rather than in the dielectric: YouTube - Capacitor_voltage.avi
Is it really on the plate or is it due to the changing of dielectric material? Glass, having a dielectric constant of around 3.7 and then air having a dielectric constant of around 1. Im convinced that capacitance is an effect that occurs outside of conductors. Interesting videos

Interesting thread Armagdn03. I was a little confused on how the spark gap makes it unidirectional. So this would opperate off the inductive collapse of the primary right? And then the spark gap in the secondary would have to be adjusted to only arc on the main collapsing kick. Would this mean that the primary would have to be run on a dc spark gap setup to ensure the wave is always the same polarity? Or am i not thinking right?
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#20
07-01-2010, 12:24 AM
 Harvey Gold Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,137
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Michael John Nunnerley Hi you are getting into an area that I have been working on for some time, let me explain what I have developed. Take an aluminium cylinder and place inside a rod electrode in its center, seal the two ends and creat a vacuum inside. Now take another cylinder of bigger diameter and place over the evacuated cylinder. Now apply a HV+ to the rod in the vacuum (6kv) and connect the negative to the vacuum cylinder. Now apply another HV+ to the outer cylinder (30kv) and the negative to the vacuum cylinder creating a common negative. Now what do we have, two different environments with two different potencials and a common ground point of separation. Now it will be interesting to see what you think will happen. Mike
I'll take a guess from a classical view

The atoms of the center ground cylinder will become polarized between the 24kV potential normal to its surfaces. The outer cylinder will redistribute its charges to ensure the interior surface is near zero. Because the ground conductor has an ample supply of free electrons, there can be a flow of current from that conductor to the 6kV Rod as it acts as a cold cathode. Similarly, because of being polarized, the ground conductor will develop a slight positive charge on its outer layer and a flow of current could exist between this surface and the inner surface of the 30kV cylinder.

The outer cylinder will exhibit a strong electric field radiating outwards from its surface and will no doubt begin aligning air molecules resulting in polarized air around the cylinder. Charges can be transferred between that surface and the air resulting in an Ion wind flow away from the cylinder while fresh air is pulled in at the top and bottom of the cylinder ends to sweep across the surface and be repelled after the free electrons are removed.

Am I close to the empirical findings?
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#21
07-01-2010, 12:25 AM
 Harvey Gold Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,137
Quote:
 Originally Posted by cody Is it really on the plate or is it due to the changing of dielectric material? Glass, having a dielectric constant of around 3.7 and then air having a dielectric constant of around 1. Im convinced that capacitance is an effect that occurs outside of conductors. Interesting videos Interesting thread Armagdn03. I was a little confused on how the spark gap makes it unidirectional. So this would opperate off the inductive collapse of the primary right? And then the spark gap in the secondary would have to be adjusted to only arc on the main collapsing kick. Would this mean that the primary would have to be run on a dc spark gap setup to ensure the wave is always the same polarity? Or am i not thinking right?
Actually the charge is held in the oxide layer of the metal in this case
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#22
07-01-2010, 11:30 AM
 Michael John Nunnerley Gold Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 1,193
very good Harvey

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Harvey I'll take a guess from a classical view The atoms of the center ground cylinder will become polarized between the 24kV potential normal to its surfaces. The outer cylinder will redistribute its charges to ensure the interior surface is near zero. Because the ground conductor has an ample supply of free electrons, there can be a flow of current from that conductor to the 6kV Rod as it acts as a cold cathode. Similarly, because of being polarized, the ground conductor will develop a slight positive charge on its outer layer and a flow of current could exist between this surface and the inner surface of the 30kV cylinder. The outer cylinder will exhibit a strong electric field radiating outwards from its surface and will no doubt begin aligning air molecules resulting in polarized air around the cylinder. Charges can be transferred between that surface and the air resulting in an Ion wind flow away from the cylinder while fresh air is pulled in at the top and bottom of the cylinder ends to sweep across the surface and be repelled after the free electrons are removed. Am I close to the empirical findings?
Hi Harvey, you are nearly spot on. There are a few other things that can happen depending if we supply just positive HV to the inner and outer and connect the common to ground EARTH in a special way, we create a very strong electron sucking pump from the ground.

Without the earth ground we create a very broad electron beam which ionizes any gas that passes through the outer and negative of the reactor. I won't go into this more here as it is another project covered by NDA and is ongoing.

The part that is appropriate here is the earth ground and not system ground and creating an electron pump extracting free electrons and can self run after startup.

Mike
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#23
07-01-2010, 12:34 PM
 Armagdn03 Silver Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 919
Quote:
 Originally Posted by cody Is it really on the plate or is it due to the changing of dielectric material? Glass, having a dielectric constant of around 3.7 and then air having a dielectric constant of around 1. Im convinced that capacitance is an effect that occurs outside of conductors. Interesting videos Interesting thread Armagdn03. I was a little confused on how the spark gap makes it unidirectional. So this would opperate off the inductive collapse of the primary right? And then the spark gap in the secondary would have to be adjusted to only arc on the main collapsing kick. Would this mean that the primary would have to be run on a dc spark gap setup to ensure the wave is always the same polarity? Or am i not thinking right?
Director
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#24
07-01-2010, 02:54 PM
 Michael John Nunnerley Gold Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 1,193
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Armagdn03 Director
Nice post, thank you.

Mike
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#25
07-01-2010, 05:34 PM
 Armagdn03 Silver Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 919
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Harvey This is how I understand this law to be applied: "The value of field density at any given distance from a source will be the unity source value multiplied by the the inverse square of the distance' In the example of two spheres where one is charged to 64V relative to a reference, and the sphere has a radius of r, the unity value is 64V where r = 1. Therefore, the surface of the sphere is 64 * 1/r² where r = 1. Thus, 1/1² = 1 and the surface is 64V everywhere. Now when we double our distance to 2r we get 64 * 1/2² = 16v At 3r we get 7.11-> V At 4r we get 4V etc. Now, if we have two spheres that are the same radius, and they are 2r away from each other (center to center) then their surfaces would be touching and all charge would be equalized across both surfaces. Therefore, a differential cannot occur between two spheres of equal size until we exceed a distance of 2r. Now also, I would like to draw attention to the italicized words above. The 64V must be measurable to some reference. Likewise, if we have two parallel plates, and they are both charged to some value where one is say X and the other is Y in volts, then we can say that a charge exists between those two plates of X - Y volts. But X is relative to a reference and Y is relative to the same reference. Can either plate be discharged to the reference independently of the other plate? Yes it can. Let us put some numbers in those variables and see what happens. Let X = 100V and let Y = -350V and let our reference = 0V. We find that we have a positive charge on one plate, relative to our reference and a negative charge on the other. The differential between those two charges is 450V. So now we use a wire to connect the 100V plate to our reference; what happens? That plate discharges and now becomes zero volts. So next we remove the wire from that plate. We measure our differential between the two plates and now it is reduced to 350V. Next we attach the wire to the other plate, and that plate too discharges to zero volts to match our reference. The differential at this point between the two plates is zero. So we have effectively discharged the capacitor. Here is a video of the opposite process - charging a capacitive surface: Advance This Video To 47 Minutes But it does help us to understand that something is being moved from place to place with respects to charge. This video is a bit more sterile, but it does illustrate how charge and voltage are effected by distance and dielectric: YouTube - MIT Physics Demo -- Adjustable Capacitor with Dielectric And of course in this video, we see that the charge can in specific cases be stored in the dielectric rather than on the metal. YouTube - MIT Physics Demo -- Dissectible Capacitor Here is a video showing the charge staying on the metal rather than in the dielectric: YouTube - Capacitor_voltage.avi And here is a nice video that gives some specifics to different types: YouTube - How a Capacitor Works - by Dr. Oliver Winn A polarized material (dielectric or conductor) will repel electrons from one surface and attract them to the other. Excess electrons packed into a region creates tension known as voltage. Conversely, Excess Ions packed into a region also creates tension known as voltage. And likewise, even a group of positrons packed into magnetic containment field can be viewed as having a voltage but trying to measure it could be problematic since positrons are considered to be a form of antimatter So voltage really is nothing more than a bunch of charges trying to get some elbow room and charge is a group of anything that represents electrical charge within a particular area. One thing is certain, we have a large variety of methods and means for storing charges
@ Harvey
Very good points which I will address here soon...working on videotaping an experiment, will post soon (SO LITTLE TIME!!!) By the way, I particularly enjoy your posts!

@JMNunnerley

Thanks, one need not use gas tubes, or full wave rectification for this technique to work, I am building a half wave rectification spark gap for demonstration, will document this as well, but as stated above....SO LITTLE TIME!!! if someone has any to spare, send it my way!
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Last edited by Armagdn03; 07-01-2010 at 05:38 PM.
#26
07-01-2010, 05:52 PM
 Michael John Nunnerley Gold Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 1,193
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Armagdn03 @ Harvey Very good points which I will address here soon...working on videotaping an experiment, will post soon (SO LITTLE TIME!!!) By the way, I particularly enjoy your posts! @JMNunnerley Thanks, one need not use gas tubes, or full wave rectification for this technique to work, I am building a half wave rectification spark gap for demonstration, will document this as well, but as stated above....SO LITTLE TIME!!! if someone has any to spare, send it my way!
Know how you feel, I am semi retired and working harder than ever

Mike
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#27
07-02-2010, 12:34 AM
 Inquorate Gold Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Sydney, Aus Posts: 2,106
hi guys, did some work on the unidirectional spark gap in the past.

Inventing incredibly high voltage analogues to the diode and transistors

Very interesting stuff Armagadon, thanks for sharing
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Atoms move for free. It's all about resonance and phase. Make the circuit open and build a generator.
#28
07-02-2010, 02:21 AM
 Armagdn03 Silver Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 919
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Inquorate hi guys, did some work on the unidirectional spark gap in the past. Inventing incredibly high voltage analogues to the diode and transistors Very interesting stuff Armagadon, thanks for sharing
I do remember this! In fact I referenced that very thread when I was researching my new arc gap design!

Thanks for sharing the link, I should have included it
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#29
07-02-2010, 02:52 AM
 cody Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 407
That link was cool, thanks! I had always been under the impression that tesla used a magnetic field around the spark gap to keep the square wave very sharp, had no idea it was for rectification.

Here is a vid of a guy giving a good explination and demonstration of the dc resonant charging circuit for tesla coils. I would think a circuit like this would work for this application. He also gives pointers and tips on the component values from lots of experience.
YouTube - Larg Tesla Coil Video 2
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#30
07-02-2010, 12:45 PM
 Armagdn03 Silver Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 919
I do not know of tesla specifically using this design, however, he had "magnetically quenched" gaps, and it would have been hard to miss what was happening.

Also there is a difference between what that man showed in that video, and what I am trying to do. There will still be an AC resonant condition that alters polarity within the coil. What I propose is a "forward only" form of resonance. the resonance pushes in one direction, one polarity only, and does not allow a reversal of current. Therefore the gap itself must not allow the AC component, so that when the inductance collapses and begins to build the capacitive component, it is important that that capacitive component never reverse direction and return energy to the inductor which supplied it.
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Last edited by Armagdn03; 07-02-2010 at 12:53 PM.

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