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  #31  
Old 06-29-2010, 03:37 AM
garrys garrys is offline
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yes its me

You dont have to worry about coil or magnets in this motor the underlying principal is what counts here and this will work with any pair of matched coils and any pair of matched magnets in any number of configurations or any number of pairs of matched magnets and coils.

i used a hot glue gun to stick my coils down if that helps ...makes it easy to slice them off and do it again if you get it wrong.

The magnet layout is one rotor all north pointing in and one all south creating an attraction in the center ...this is important further down the track.

I removed 6 of the original 12 coils in my motor but left the magnets at 12 because the proximity of the coils was causing induction in the following coil at the same time as the current one was firing which may not be a bad thing, though i did not ever refit them to see what it was doing after i took them out and had an understanding of what was going on in the motor.

The basis of this motor is effectively a centertap coil with one half removed and refittied the other way round this changes the direction of current flow in the half turned around so it can function as it did, this also most importantly changes the direction of induced flow in this coil which means that the 2 halves of the coil are now opposing each other in the induction or generator mode and thus they cancel each other out equally to nothing.

Since this induction is not activly fighting the incoming current ...induction or potential if you like being voltage ... the input current is free to flow longer since on switching of the input the circuit now grows around the battery instead of being captive between the 2 coils and so the end result is the voltage potential fighting against the input potential is halved thus the motor can go faster than it could in a standard configuration.

this is not OU...OU doesnt exist this is merely using sound scientific methods in a different configuration and effectively producing a better mouse trap.

There is more of course to this but until you clearly understand the effect of a magnet moving its flux field in the presence of a coil and what actually happens in the coil you wont grasp the finer details of what is going on in the flat coil scenario that is adding to the output.

i am somewhat limited for time these days i take over a coffee bar in a few days and am swamped with paperwork but i will login and help where ever i can and just in case you are still wondering yes i am Garry Stanley and there is still a pulse_motor_group out there but its pretty much dead.

Garry
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  #32  
Old 06-29-2010, 04:17 AM
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Hi Garry, thanks for info, nice to hear from you again. I saved a lot of the conversations from one of the forums from the past, so have a lot of your dialogues. I decided to use 6 single coils inside a 3/8" center stator plate, though I could very easily make a new stator plate and put 1/8" coils on either side of the 3/8" stator plate if it might work better. Do you think that would be better with 2 thinner coils on either side of stator? What configuration did Ben use, it sounded like he used 4 single coils at 90 degrees to each other and put 2 in parallel that were 180 degrees from one another and the other 2 in parallel and he was seeing the voltage aiding the input pulse. If that is the case, then my configuration should work as well, paralleling each coil adjacent one another. As i said previously, i already built a motor like yours and it ran awesome. Also, have you done any more tests with that type of motor or anything else for that matter. Thanks for your help.
I have finished putting all the 1" diameter by 3/4" depth neo magnets in both rotors and stator plate is almost ready.
peace love light
Tyson
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  #33  
Old 06-29-2010, 04:55 AM
garrys garrys is offline
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tyson

Bens motor was as you say set up differently incidentally i still have the e-mail from him saying how he only built it casue he was sure it wouldnt work and wanted to shut me up once and for all he was also a retired electrical engineer fully qualified with a life time of experience under his belt.

Bens configuration worked because the principle is the same no matter what the setup is the opposed coils cancel out the induction potential.

With single coils you will get a motor that runs as ben did as long as they are paired to cancel the induction which will take a bit of figuring out as your coils will both have induction in the same direction and thus add unless you have your magnets set up with alternating poles facing in ...if im seeing your setup correctly and this would then mean you can only pulse 6 times per rotation with 12 magnets not all 12 if you see what i mean ? or maybe you could just turn around every second coil would be easier if you havent already done that.

The circuit diagram i see at the start of this thread is wrong, you may need a diode there but in reality i just used a big reed switch with a resistor in line with it to run this i think ... would have to go have a better look at it again as i have used transistors on some projects for switching ...its been a while since i put it on the shelf.

Yes i built a couple of lensless generators since then which is the natural progression from the understanding you gain from this but believe it or not when you talk to people about these they think you are mad and of course you know this before you start and while you would think that actually showing them a working prototype might change this opinion it really just proves to them you are mader than they originally thought because you actually went to the point of making something that they have been taught cant exist ...so basically i gave up ...no one will back this with any money and nothing you can say or do is going to change that in my lifetime.

This for me was seperating the generator out of the motor not trying to get power out of it since its design is basically removing the output and that is why it doesnt have lethal kickback into the drive components.
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  #34  
Old 06-29-2010, 05:11 AM
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Hi Garry, thanks for the information. From what i understood of what you have said in the past, is that the paralleled coils serve a capacitor function, so that only the instant induction on pulse is there to counter our input and it seems to me that the possible voltage aiding or forward emf on pulse is a separate effect that does not necessarily need paralleled coils for that function. At least that is how I am understanding this, if I am misunderstanding, could you make your thoughts clearer on this. Of course all these possible special effects aside, the motor has nearly none of the typical losses most motors do and uses both coil poles, so it's superior anyhow in my opinion. Thanks for your help.
Here is a pic of the rotors with magnets installed.
http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/3...anleytype4.jpg
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  #35  
Old 06-29-2010, 07:24 AM
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Hi folks, Hi Garry, I'd like to clarify my last post. So the capacitor effect due to parallel coils causes an aiding polarity to be stored in coils because when magnets depart coils it generates the same polarity as input pulse, so that helps. Then we have a potential brief forward emf caused by the attraction pulse, pulling the magnet flux in a direction opposite of the incoming magnet and at higher speed than incoming magnet. Then we have compression, which helps reduce deflection and pre loads the flux so the coil doesn't have to work to pull it in and the compression causes the magnet to be pulled in towards the coil a bit longer on collapse and the paralleled coils could help this also. Then this motor does not have all the typical losses most motors have and it uses both coil poles directly. I posted a thought I had about making a simple solid state setup based on this possible forward emf idea. With an air-core and 2 large magnets at both ends, where there fields link and attract like in your motor. Do you think this could be a way to show the forward emf aiding principle? The coil could be pulsed by a 555 timer or could be a joule thief type coil circuit and if this effect is occurring, then the collapsing field should contain more energy due to the neo magnets contributing their flux to and aiding the input pulse. Let me know what you think.
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  #36  
Old 06-29-2010, 11:08 AM
garrys garrys is offline
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I have never claimed a capacitor effect in this ..this seems to be something that maybe someone looking to get output from it might be looking for.

The coils must be paired to achieve the higher output from this though this pairing is not required to be the way i have shown it as ben and many other replications at the time showed the principle is simply that if you have induction in one that is equal and opposite to the other in the pair the induced potential which is directly responcible for controling the spped of the motor for a given input is reduced by at least 50% when input power is applied and by 100% in the coils which by the way they are wired is a direct short circuit since they are closed all the time it is the same as having a generator coil with its 2 wires connected placing full load on the generator all the time and thus converting the output to heat which is another thing this motor is short of ....the coils i used were from a 12 volt computer floppy drive and should have fallen over well before accepting the 96 volts and load from running the bike.
Amperage stops flowing when there is no voltage differential so when the output voltage equals the input voltage current stops flowing ...very simplified here ... if you reduce the output voltage the input voltage can spin the motor faster before the amperage flow is stopped but induction voltage equalling input voltage.
I hope some of this makes sense ?
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  #37  
Old 06-29-2010, 01:28 PM
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Hi Garry,

Pleased you have come and joined, thank you.
What I would like to ask is could you recall when you used the 12 coil pairs, then any of the facing coils out of the 12 had the same winding sense (CW-CW) or one member of any pair had an opposing winding sense (CW-CCW) ?

OR, if somebody does not wind the CW-CCW facing pairs, then he should make a polarity change simply at the wire ends of one coil in the coil pairs, ok?

I consider both winding senses, the CW-CCW or the CW-CW but with one coilís ends polarity change to be an equivalent solution. I bring this up because you had mentioned you found flat floppy disk coils that were wound CCW and other flat coils were wound CW. So it does not matter if someone does not wind one coil CW and its pair CCW, as long as he minds the wire ends polarity, correct?

(On a coil pair here I mean two coils that are to be connected in parallel, it does not matter if they are sandwitched into the gap between the facing magnets or arranged individually at the circumference of the stator and you make a pair by picking any one coil and connect it in parallel to another coil on the opposite side of the stator wrt the picked one.)

Thanks, Gyula
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  #38  
Old 06-29-2010, 04:46 PM
Ted Ewert Ted Ewert is offline
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Hi Garry,
Thanks for the explanation and sharing your work. I understand how it all works except for the following part:

Quote:
Originally Posted by garrys View Post
The basis of this motor is effectively a centertap coil with one half removed and refittied the other way round this changes the direction of current flow in the half turned around so it can function as it did, this also most importantly changes the direction of induced flow in this coil which means that the 2 halves of the coil are now opposing each other in the induction or generator mode and thus they cancel each other out equally to nothing...
I'm a little unclear on how this part is wired, which seems to be the heart of your principal. How do you get the coils to "oppose each other in the induction" (opposite fields?) and yet maintain the correct polarity for the coils as a motor?

Thanks,

Ted
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  #39  
Old 06-29-2010, 05:22 PM
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The circuit diagram i see at the start of this thread is wrong, you may need a diode there but in reality i just used a big reed switch with a resistor in line with it to run this i think ... would have to go have a better look at it again as i have used transistors on some projects for switching ...its been a while since i put it on the shelf.

Garry, are you saying the circuit diagram at the beginning is correct except for the diode? It would be helpful to know what the exact circuit should be.
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  #40  
Old 06-29-2010, 05:27 PM
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Its simple really Ted if you think about it. Maybe , just my interpetation.

Remember the coil does not fire until it is slightly past the magnet. So leading up to that point your are generating.
From left to right... The magnet to the left is pointed inward to the North. Next the coil is wound North out. When the magnet hits the coil it induces a positive strike on the Back of the coil (North feild).
Now you have the next coil it wound North (south to the center of the assembly)to the outside as well, but wired backward. When the south magnet hits it, it induces a Positive charge as well on the inside of the coil. The 2 fields cancel each other out. No induced energy on the coil when you turn it on.

I think that whats he's saying, I might be wrong.

Matt
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  #41  
Old 06-29-2010, 08:49 PM
rave154 rave154 is offline
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matthew....so basically youre saying its a pulse motor, without lenz-drag?..would that be correct?

actually, ill rephrase........lenz is still there......but its two different/opposite lenz's...each cancelling the other out..therefore.....essentially.........lenzless... .so whatever OOOMPH you put on the coil when you turn it on......it doesnt have to fight against the "lenz"....so you get the full bang for your buck..so to speak

TED.....how does/would/could this fit into your paradigm of using the magnet together with the piece of steel, to add torque to a pulse motor? (Seems like it could shape up to be a real hummer )
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  #42  
Old 06-29-2010, 08:51 PM
Ted Ewert Ted Ewert is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Jones View Post
Remember the coil does not fire until it is slightly past the magnet. So leading up to that point your are generating.
From left to right... The magnet to the left is pointed inward to the North. Next the coil is wound North out. When the magnet hits the coil it induces a positive strike on the Back of the coil (North feild).
Now you have the next coil it wound North (south to the center of the assembly)to the outside as well, but wired backward. When the south magnet hits it, it induces a Positive charge as well on the inside of the coil. The 2 fields cancel each other out. No induced energy on the coil when you turn it on.

I think that whats he's saying, I might be wrong.

Matt
Thanks for the explanation Matt.
So, what we have here is the induced voltage canceling out between the two coils which would prevent current from flowing. No current, no Lenz effect.
According to the diagram this motor appears to be an attraction motor. Did I miss the part about repulsion mode? This effect would make more sense for the magnet leaving the coil than approaching, wouldn't it?

Ted
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  #43  
Old 06-29-2010, 09:15 PM
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hi folks, Hi Garry, thanks for the further explanation. I found a part of your quote to Bill from a yahoo group message that mentions a capacitor effect.
Quote:
I do understand how my motor works, its power comes first from the power source and it is then enhanced by the capacitive effect of the coils during the exit cycle, which stores potential that is inline with the input power and then it contains a forward emf cycle at the instant of power on which again provides and additive potential to the input power pulse, along with this it has no induced current and this means no Lentz counter to motion force.
I have looked over the coil circuit using my cad program and it looks to me as though it should not matter if coils are sandwiched back to back with a space or not between the 2 rotors magnets. The induced potentials would be the same if paralleling 2 coils 180 degrees apart with all same polarities facing in on 1 rotor and opposite polarity facing in on other rotor. If I am still misunderstanding Garry, your thoughts to make this clear would be great, thanks. Otherwise, I have finished my stator coil plate and rotors and only have to make a timing wheel and setup circuitry, will post pic of progress later today.
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  #44  
Old 06-29-2010, 10:07 PM
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So from what I understand, I can have a setup that is:
Magnet/coil/magnet/coil/magnet and as long as I have them wired correctly, I can take advantage of this effect. I have two such setups currently, although not wired in the proper configuration.
In one setup the coils and the magnets are permanently placed and do NOT move, with a rotor between them that allows the coils to "see" the magnets through "windows" in the rotor.
In the other setup the coils are permanent and the magnets are on rotors. It is actually put together as:
magnet rotor/coil/magnet-magnet rotor/coil/magnet rotor.
There are two magnets on the center magnet rotor that are back to back because I wanted the weight and magnets back to back with the plastic disk in between to help hold each other in place.
So my question is, is there an advantage that I don't understand to using the flat coils in this setup or will using standard coils as I have described accomplish the same thing?
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Last edited by Turion; 06-29-2010 at 10:09 PM. Reason: Left out the important question
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  #45  
Old 06-29-2010, 10:09 PM
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Hi folks, here is a cad pic showing how my circuit and coil configuration is with the way mine is set up compared to the way Garry had his and it seems the induced voltages are the same. This is reason I am asking Garry if it's necessary that the coils be in a back to back fashion and it doesn't seem to me it matters.
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/275...cuitcompar.jpg
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  #46  
Old 06-29-2010, 11:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Ewert View Post
Thanks for the explanation Matt.
So, what we have here is the induced voltage canceling out between the two coils which would prevent current from flowing. No current, no Lenz effect.
According to the diagram this motor appears to be an attraction motor. Did I miss the part about repulsion mode? This effect would make more sense for the magnet leaving the coil than approaching, wouldn't it?

Ted
Attraction or repulsion probably works the same way. Alot of the Lenz effect disappearing is coming simply from the fact that the motor pulses the same over and over. That will allow some of the generated BEMF to go to ground with the input current. Then this effect cancels out the rest, If I am thinking right. I haven't built one but thats how it sound to me. I am pretty sure you would need 2 coils to make that happen.

Cheers
Matt
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  #47  
Old 06-29-2010, 11:56 PM
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Hi turion, my understanding is that they have to be air-core coils so that the rotor magnets fields can link and attract one another and that would mean magnet strength would determine coil thickness due to distance the fields can reach out. And with that setup, enable these other effects to occur.
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  #48  
Old 06-30-2010, 12:33 AM
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Hi folks, here is a pic of progress of pulse motor. I will install rotors next and test pulse angle width to determine magnet size and spacing for timing wheel and just to see what kind of pull this sucker has. Going to start with reed switch firing transistor. Though in the model i built before i used a hall effect device, which worked well.
http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/62/stanleytype5.jpg
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  #49  
Old 06-30-2010, 05:50 AM
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Hi folks, installed the dual rotors and wired them up in the 3 coil pairs in parallel/series way and manually pulsed the motor. At 12v it takes off nicely, at 24v the rotor launches and at 36volts it rockets away sometimes causing the whole motor to fly up off the table. This motor seems to have much more torque than my old motor, probably because the magnets are closer together and/or because the coil geometry is more ring like. My old motor used 18 gauge wire at around .5 ohms per coil and these coils are 24 gauge around 2.5 ohms each and have much more punch. That makes final resistance around 3.75 ohms. Here is a pic of progress, still have to cut out timing wheel and hook up drive circuits.
http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/3...anleytype6.jpg
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  #50  
Old 06-30-2010, 09:58 AM
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Very nice build

That is a very nice build. I can't wait to see what kind of torque you will get from it. My son has been talking about building something like this for a while. I told him about your thread so he can see how it is done. By the way the U.S. Navy uses a motor very similar to this. It is called a pancake motor. They use it because of its high torque and high efficiency. Their coils are wired differently and of course have metallic cores following conventional thinking. I think your design or I guess I should say Garry's will be even more efficient than the Navy's. Great build.

Carroll
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  #51  
Old 06-30-2010, 12:55 PM
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hi again

you guys seem to pretty much have it ...let me see if i can get this right ...if you wind a coil clockwise and then turn it over it appears counter clockwise .. if you power it you get a N at one end and a S at the other and you can drive a motor with this.

Cut this coil in half and power both center ends with Pos and both outters with Neg now you get like poles at both ends and repelling like poles in the center ...disconnct one end of the coil and turn it round and you come back to your original N and S poles to the outside and a S and N on the inside so it is all happy again.

the turned half forces the current which is still flowing from the outside inwards to spiral in the opposite direction in order to create the pole just as the magnet passing by this end casues the electrons to move in the opposite direction which is what casues the canceling effect.

Grasping this is a bit like trying to understand a rubiks cube

Avoid cores in these you will quickly learn that these motors dont need to be big to make usable power but mine did not even have the power to pull itself free of the pull of the cores when i tried cores in it and would not spin even if i gave it a helping hand, several other replicators have tried this with similar results, but that doesnt mean you shouldnt try it once you have a running motor i have learnt the hard way to trust no one and make sure i have tested it for myself.

Tyson im going to plead the 5th on the capacitive effect ..i suspect im using someone elses words there that dont accurately convey what i was trying to impart.
It may well be that someone else has summed something to be a capacitive effect in a previous post and that was the appropriate thing to call it there.
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  #52  
Old 06-30-2010, 01:05 PM
garrys garrys is offline
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Using standard coils of any depth will work but the distance between your magnets will put them out of each others flux fields and thus you will never see the cumulative effect of the flat coils where the proximity of the magnets casues the flux field to move inward and then return the instant the coils flux field interferes with this setup ...this causes a flux field to move out away from the coils at the instant of power on resulting in a forward emf even if ever so briefly but nevertheless adding to input power.

Also your center magnet will interfer with this in a flat coils motor but then again it might increase it, so well worth trying ...i built another center plate for mine to try this but was unable to get more matching magnets to try it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
So from what I understand, I can have a setup that is:
Magnet/coil/magnet/coil/magnet and as long as I have them wired correctly, I can take advantage of this effect. I have two such setups currently, although not wired in the proper configuration.
In one setup the coils and the magnets are permanently placed and do NOT move, with a rotor between them that allows the coils to "see" the magnets through "windows" in the rotor.
In the other setup the coils are permanent and the magnets are on rotors. It is actually put together as:
magnet rotor/coil/magnet-magnet rotor/coil/magnet rotor.
There are two magnets on the center magnet rotor that are back to back because I wanted the weight and magnets back to back with the plastic disk in between to help hold each other in place.
So my question is, is there an advantage that I don't understand to using the flat coils in this setup or will using standard coils as I have described accomplish the same thing?
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Old 06-30-2010, 01:09 PM
garrys garrys is offline
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If i get time over the weekend ill dig the motor out and maybe take some pix of the curcuit on it so you can all see.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
The circuit diagram i see at the start of this thread is wrong, you may need a diode there but in reality i just used a big reed switch with a resistor in line with it to run this i think ... would have to go have a better look at it again as i have used transistors on some projects for switching ...its been a while since i put it on the shelf.

Garry, are you saying the circuit diagram at the beginning is correct except for the diode? It would be helpful to know what the exact circuit should be.
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Old 06-30-2010, 02:01 PM
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Garry,
Thank you so much for your willingness to answer so many questions, some of which I know probably seem pretty stupid. Believe me, I appreciate it and I know everybody who is trying to replicate this motor also appreciates it.
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Old 06-30-2010, 09:03 PM
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Hi folks, Hi Garry, thanks for the information, will be interested to see your pics. Hi Carroll, thanks for the compliments, I have an old friend in the navy. Though as i figured, since it is such a small model, the threaded rod cross supports or bearing proximity are causing a slight cogging of the rotors, though not major. Unless a different design or cross support material was used, this design needs to be a tad bigger to prevent any cogging. Otherwise, i realized i had a cut timing wheel that fits from previous motors and will use that. Also i will have to use a longer shaft, i have a 24" length, 5/8" diameter laying around and with the longer shaft I can fit the timing wheel and any load, prony brake attachments on other end. Shouldn't be too long now before I can fire this thing up.
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Old 06-30-2010, 09:20 PM
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@SKY

I always use pipe tape on my all thread before inserting them into the bearings. You can wrap it tight and clean the outer edge's with razor or something. It fills the grooves and it holds up well. You can also wrap enough so the bearings need a slight pressure to slip over the taped point, ensuring you get no inside spin between the bearing and the shaft.

Normally 5/8 threaded rod on the outside of the thread is 1/32 shy of 5/8, but the bearings are cut at 5/8. Same with other sizes..

Cheers
Matt
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  #57  
Old 07-02-2010, 04:16 AM
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SkyWatcher SkyWatcher is offline
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H folks, Hi Matt, thanks for the idea for the shaft, it will probably help. I fired up the motor today using 36 volts and using a reed switch from the shack with an NTE392 NPN transistor. She runs good, still have to mount reed switch, I was holding with one hand and other holding shaft to sense shaft torque. It has a bit of torque, when unloaded it draws around 100 milliamps and when loaded with grasping hand drawing around 500 milliamps at around 1/2 the unloaded speed, it gets a little painful. So at 36volts, unloaded is 3.6 watts and loaded with hand, its around 18 watts. I placed a neon across collector and emitter to see any flyback and it does not light up until a certain speed and if using 24volts input it never lights up. At 36volts if i ramp it up to full speed unloaded and disconnect input power and let it coast, the neon stays lit until it drops to a certain speed then goes out. So I guess that means the coils are outputting enough voltage to turn on the neon, which is the green 120 volt version, at a certain rpm. Though it does not seem that flyback is causing it to light up. Let me hear your thoughts on this. Here is a pic of the motor with circuit, the old timing wheel i had is too big so I'll have to make another one.
http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/8232/stanleytype7.jpg
peace love light
Tyson
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Old 07-02-2010, 06:09 AM
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Turion Turion is offline
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SkyWatcher,

Really nice job with this build.
I am waiting on my magnets to get started with mine. I have been building a Watson device, and will be using THIS motor to drive it since it will probably do a better job than anything I could buy. A highly efficient pulse motor is exactly what is needed for that device, as well as a weighted shaft, and I think this build meets those requirements quite nicely.

As for the light that stayed on even after you shut off power to your motor, have you taken a look at Matt's Simple Motor schematic and video? I wonder what would happen if you used a spark gap and mechanical timing to trigger your coils and captured the energy as Matt does. I will be giving that a try as I try to use spark gaps and mechanical triggering whenever possible.
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Old 07-02-2010, 07:03 AM
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SkyWatcher SkyWatcher is offline
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Hi Turion, thanks for the compliments. I'm not aware of 'Matt's Simple Motor schematic and video' is, could you post a link maybe, thanks. Can 3 pairs of coils wired in parallel and then these 3 parallel sets wired in series create that kind of voltage to light a neon rated at 120 volts, maybe. Also, with attraction mode, i cant use Bedini's flyback capture method because the diode conducts as the rotor magnets approaches the coils, though in repulsion mode it can be used. I am looking forward to your motor build, I think you will be pleasantly surprised at how well this motor performs. what design are you planning, any details.
peace love light
Tyson
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Last edited by SkyWatcher; 07-02-2010 at 07:11 AM.
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Old 07-02-2010, 08:16 AM
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Hi folks, a correction. Actually, the single diode flyback capture method conducts when rotor magnet is leaving the coil, so it would seem then that the collapsing field is bucking the induced field in the open circuit coil caused by the passing magnet. Though the neon lights without any input pulse, so I'll have to spin it up and remove input power to allow coasting and check the voltage to see how high it is.
peace love light
Tyson
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