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  #1  
Old 06-05-2007, 10:01 AM
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molux molux is offline
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Magnetic Wankel Motor

I all,

I have collected some interesting informations about Wankel:


Starts:
Apprently, the first inventor of this kind of moteur is Tekko Kure (Japon), Takahashi continue the work under Wankel Magnetic like Paul Sprain or Tom Bearden

Interesting Address:
De Reed à Werjefelt 2/2
The Tom Bearden Website
Welcome to the magnetic wankel motor page
The Permanent Magnet Motor - 1979 Paper by Howard R. Johnson and William P. Harrison, Jr.
Free Energy and Perpetual Motion


Some Stator Setup idea




Documents
Here some picture came from the document more down


You can get it here
http://www.arlingtoninstitute.org/library/LODER.PPT
Or mirrored here:
http://www.syscoil.org/medias/storag...r_3/wankel.pps


Replication
Here some replication

Paul Monus Réplication:


Paul Sprain Réplication:


Ted Loder Réplication



John Bedini / Tom Berarden Replication


David Scott Réplication
A document about magnetic wabkel for cars:



Vidéos
YouTube - The Magnetic Wankel Engine concept
YouTube - Magnet Motor - Harry Paul Sprain
YouTube - Harry Paul Sprain magnet motor 2007 with generator
YouTube - Harry Paul Sprain magnet motor 2007




Molux
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Old 06-05-2007, 10:02 AM
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Du to this crazy limitation of picture post a cut my post in two part:
(but why this limitation ? the pictures not loaded from you server...)



I think i'm not alone intersting about this process, if you have more information or intuition about my suggested modifications, tell me it please

I want to "self run" it if it's possible, here an idea:






I dont have all material a the moment but i quickly build a small replique for basic testing.


Assembly replique


Disassembled replique, in center of stator, the floppy disk driver "ball bearing"

This replique have so many probléme, the position of magnets (slop) it important and badly build under my little gate.

Here a simple vidéo i trying:
YouTube - Magnetic Wankel Motor 1

I have to make some test before put a coil under that
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Old 08-02-2007, 10:13 AM
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Hy,

Here you can find the following...
Wankel Magnet Motor

Molux
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Old 08-13-2008, 11:59 PM
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Tomi

Is anyone replicating or has anyone replicated the TOMI magnetic motor. It is shown in linear form on other websites. Some have tried to make it run circular, but have come up just short or continuous circular motion. TOMI stands for theory of magnetic instability. If you are interested in seeing the TOMI motor drawing go to KeelyNet Energy Files
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Old 08-14-2008, 01:21 AM
robur robur is offline
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no

i know only that here 3 magnetics that work 2 curcular but very slow and 1 linear with a clever trick to it that can run fast. but torque is low
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Old 10-27-2014, 07:18 PM
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Arrow Direction of Rotation



One observation which I would like to make is the direction of rotation with the Harry Paul Sprain Motor travels in a counterclockwise direction.

Harry Paul Sprain magnet motor

Paul_Harry_Sprain_magnet_motor.avi - YouTube

Patent Application

US Patent #6954019



Quote:
Originally Posted by Figure #1 from US Patent #6954019



The location of magnets 5 creates a magnetic field of increasing magnetic field strength around the plate 4 except for a defined space 6 where the first magnet 5 of the series is not adjacent to the last magnet 5. The area between the first and last magnets defines space 6.

As shown in FIG. 1, an electromagnet 7 is located adjacent to but not within defined space 6. The electromagnet 7 is equipped to create a magnetic field which will be of a polarity which is the same as the polarity of the magnets 3 and opposite to the polarity of the magnets 5.

In operation and with reference to FIG. 1, the rotor 2 moves through the magnetic field created by the magnets 5 in a counter clockwise direction due to the opposite polarities of the magnets 3 and 5. However, the space 6 defines a break or alteration in the magnetic field and, in the absence of electromagnet 7, the rotor 2 would stop rather than move through space 6. At or around the point when the rotor 2 would stop, the electromagnet 7 creates a magnetic field of opposite polarity to the magnet 5. This field cancels out the field created by magnet 5 and sends or allows the passage of magnet 3 through and past the defined space 6, which results in the rotor 2 beginning movement again through the magnetic field created by the magnets 5. Of course, movement of the rotor 2 causes the rotor shaft 8 to turn, thereby generating and delivering energy to a device, such as a direct drive assembly. The movement of the rotor 2 and the resultant generation of energy will continue until the device 7 is deactivated.

As shown in FIG. 1, a cover plate 9 can be used if desired. The power to allow the electromagnet 7 to create its magnetic field can be supplied through inlets 10 which, for example, could contain wires connected to a power source such as a low voltage battery or an internal capacitor charged from the energy output of the apparatus 1. A single magnet 3 could be used instead of the two magnets 3, and a single, shaped magnet 5 could be used in place of the series of magnets 5. Additionally, if a series of magnets is used, there can be more or less than shown in FIG. 1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Figure #3 from US Patent #6954019



With reference to FIG. 3, the area encircled in FIG. 1 is shown, specifically the magnet 3 located on the rotor 2, the magnets 5 located on the plate 4 and the electromagnet 7 for continuing movement of the rotor 2 to generate energy.

In the drawings, the magnets 3 are shown on the upper side of rotor 2. However, these magnets (or a single magnet in another embodiment) can be located anywhere on the rotor, such as the lower side or outer edge. The drawings also show the plate 4 as circular, but other shapes can also be used, such as square, rectangular, etc.

The electromagnet 7, which could be comprised of lead or any substance and an induction coil, is positioned adjacent to the innermost magnet 5. The electromagnet is powered through a power source sufficient to generate a magnetic field which offsets or breaks the magnetic field created by the magnets 5. An electrical impulse is fired from the electromagnet on command through a timer (such as a laser triggered circuit or other mechanical trigger mechanism) that is connected to the device and positioned between the innermost and outermost magnets 5. The timer detects the approaching magnet 3 and signals the electromagnet 7 to fire, in order to break the magnetic field as the rotor 2 approaches the innermost magnet 5, thereby allowing the rotor to continue movement around to the outermost magnet 5 again. This process is repeated upon each rotation of the rotor. The only external energy input is a requirement to charge the electromagnetic device and power the timer, if necessary. The timer could also be triggered through optical or mechanical mechanisms.

This invention has been described in detail with particular reference to certain embodiments, but variations and modifications can be made without departing from the spirit and scope of the invention as defined in the following claims.
Regards,

VIDBID
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Last edited by vidbid; 10-28-2014 at 02:39 AM. Reason: Update
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Old 10-28-2014, 04:43 PM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vidbid View Post


One observation which I would like to make is the direction of rotation with the Harry Paul Sprain Motor travels in a counterclockwise direction.
Interesting, does that mean it is running in attraction?
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Old 10-28-2014, 10:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbrownn View Post
Interesting, does that mean it is running in attraction?
That would be my take on it.
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Old 10-28-2014, 11:35 PM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vidbid View Post
That would be my take on it.
it makes more sense to me to build it that way because it could be built to rotate around onto an iron keeper where only a small repelling force would be required to move it back to the start of rotation. In repulsion mode it would take a large repelling force to move the rotor into the start of rotation because that is where maximum repulsion would be.

I dont know but I assume magnets have the same repulsion and attraction forces at a given distance. Given this assumption it would be easier to generate the electrical power required for re-gauging attraction than repulsion.

To ensure that the rotor is able to move effectively onto the iron keeper, the gap between the keeper and the rotor magnet will likely have to be less than the gap between the rotor and stator magnets. It is even possible that no stator magnets would be required in attraction mode although I assume torque would be less.
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Old 10-29-2014, 02:32 AM
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Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbrownn View Post
it makes more sense to me to build it that way
I agree 100% with you on that.

A simple energy recovery circuit could be used to capture the flyback from the coil to charge a cap.



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Old 10-29-2014, 04:08 AM
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Arrow



Perhaps, a circuit like the above one could be adapted for the Sprain Motor.

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VIDBID
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Old 10-29-2014, 04:57 AM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
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With the use of bi polar switching we can place that capacitor across the source supply thereby reducing the input power requirement.

This would further reduce the power required from any generation mounted to the motor.

I showed a relay but im sure some semi conductor arrangement could be used. I think with the right components there is no reason that this could not be done.

Attached Images
File Type: jpg Screenshot from 2014-10-29 12:45:54.jpg (13.5 KB, 32 views)
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Old 10-30-2014, 03:48 AM
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Arrow

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbrownn View Post
With the use of bi polar switching we can place that capacitor across the source supply thereby reducing the input power requirement.

This would further reduce the power required from any generation mounted to the motor.

I showed a relay but im sure some semi conductor arrangement could be used. I think with the right components there is no reason that this could not be done.

..would like to see a link to that simulation.

My circuit:



Run simulation

Regards,

VIDBID
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Old 10-30-2014, 10:10 AM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
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Your circuit just shown, is what I use for recovering motorcycle batteries, its pretty good at it too. Its a little more aggressive than the imhotep/bedini fan and even cheaper to make.

The bipolar circuit I have shown is only to show the basic circuit, the relay isn't part of it other than the pair of switches working in unison.

I suppose we could use the coil of the relay instead of a separate coil and it should work fine, although I have used bipolar relays to switch other coils, and the problem is they are not as robust as the automotive relays and rapidly fail.

My work is mostly with commutated devices with the pair of brushes acting as the switches and a second set capturing the spikes in a modified armature. I was just applying the principal to the re-gauging coil on the wankle motor.

The whole point is that the recovered energy can be simply put back into the circuit to reduce the input.

The other thing I like about this wankle engine is when we run it in attraction it keeps the flux within the rotor and stator, if we connect the rotor and stator with iron based parts to complete the loop we now have something that we can mount another coil on, using the iron as the core. The varying intensity of the magnetic field could provide another electrical output with little effect on the motor performance. What do you think?
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Old 10-30-2014, 10:21 AM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
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I tried to copy and paste the simulation for you but the java on this version of linux wont allow me, but it does run in that simulator.
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Old 10-31-2014, 04:55 AM
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Arrow

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbrownn View Post
I tried to copy and paste the simulation for you but the java on this version of linux wont allow me, but it does run in that simulator.
java loader - YouTube

I had some trouble with it, too.

Here's what I did.

See above video.

Regards,

VIDBID
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Old 10-31-2014, 05:06 AM
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Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbrownn View Post

The whole point is that the recovered energy can be simply put back into the circuit to reduce the input.
Agreed. The circuit may work better to charge a secondary battery or a bank of batteries which could later be swapped (possibly, automatically) with the primary battery.

Daftman has a battery switching circuit that does the job.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbrownn View Post

The other thing I like about this wankle engine is when we run it in attraction it keeps the flux within the rotor and stator, if we connect the rotor and stator with iron based parts to complete the loop we now have something that we can mount another coil on, using the iron as the core. The varying intensity of the magnetic field could provide another electrical output with little effect on the motor performance. What do you think?
Interesting.

The idea definitely merits experimentation.

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VIDBID
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Old 10-31-2014, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vidbid View Post
Agreed. The circuit may work better to charge a secondary battery or a bank of batteries which could later be swapped (possibly, automatically) with the primary battery.

Daftman has a battery switching circuit that does the job.
Agreed if you want to maximise output, as we all know lead acid batteries respond anomalously to this type of charge giving a real gain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vidbid View Post
Interesting.

The idea definitely merits experimentation.
I have been playing around with this trick on other motors with good results, all of which I feed back to a capacitor across the source. My goal has been making a self runner by using these tricks and then putting a generator on the output shaft. I haven’t succeeded yet, but I am letting people know mods that can get you closer. Running motors in attraction helps with this and the Wankle lends itself to run in that mode.

Time and time again I have looked at this Wankle motor and thought that it could be done.

On closed coils in a motor I achieved 17% into a capacitor from inductive kickback, on the open re gauging coil we could expect much higher recovery, just like a Bedini SSG.

The generation from the case coil is likely to be lower than I have in my motors but that should not be too much of a problem as any gain is good. The greatest change in flux density will likely occur at the same time as re-guaging and I would love to see it on a scope and see what we can get.
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Old 10-31-2014, 03:16 PM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
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I placed 16 small magnets on the inside of a steel pipe, with no gaps between the magnets, and then brought another magnet in close proximity to see what approximate gap would be required to build one of these motors. something strange occurred.

The magnets used were 3.5x5x15mm ceramic. they were placed with their longest sides touching each other. They are of Chinese manufacture and are not exact in their measurements, + or - 0.25mm but I chose the magnets most closely the same size.

The free magnet was strongly attracted to the two magnets on either end of the semi circle and not so strong anywhere else. As I moved the free magnet along the proposed path I noticed the field weakening and strengthening on several occasions, 4 to be exact I was keeping the free magnet as close as possible to the same distance from the fixed magnets (about 6mm). All the positions of maximum strength were equidistant. The positions of minimum strength showed a slight repulsion when the free magnet was brought within 1mm of the fixed magnets.

Is this normal?

Maybe there is more to setting this up than meets the eye.
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Old 10-31-2014, 03:28 PM
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Lightbulb Magnetic Neutralization

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbrownn View Post
Agreed if you want to maximise output, as we all know lead acid batteries respond anomalously to this type of charge giving a real gain.

I have been playing around with this trick on other motors with good results, all of which I feed back to a capacitor across the source. My goal has been making a self runner by using these tricks and then putting a generator on the output shaft. I haven’t succeeded yet, but I am letting people know mods that can get you closer. Running motors in attraction helps with this and the Wankle lends itself to run in that mode.

Time and time again I have looked at this Wankle motor and thought that it could be done.

On closed coils in a motor I achieved 17% into a capacitor from inductive kickback, on the open re gauging coil we could expect much higher recovery, just like a Bedini SSG.

The generation from the case coil is likely to be lower than I have in my motors but that should not be too much of a problem as any gain is good. The greatest change in flux density will likely occur at the same time as re-guaging and I would love to see it on a scope and see what we can get.
Interesting.

Here's my observations on Sprain's motor.



Sprain's concept is to use magnetic neutralization on the last magnet on the series of magnets (#5) with the electromagnet (#7).

So the key to this device is (1) using magnets to create motion and (2) using an electromagnet to dampen or cancel the magnetic field of a magnet at a critical timing point.

This idea reminds me what the folks at Gap Power are doing.

Video: GAP Power Magnetic Neutralization - YouTube

Replicator's video: Replication OF TheGAPpower motor. Tried using 1" starship coil...(TEST 24) - YouTube

Variation: Pulse Motor - Gap-Power style setup - YouTube

So there are two places where power can be captured:

(1) From the mechanical output from the device which can be used to drive a generator.

(2) From the fly-back from the coil which can be used to charge secondary batteries.

The main benefit I see with their device is that it looks like it would be easier to build.

Regards,

VIDBID

PS: I believe the variation design is worth noting:



Pulse Motor - Gap-Power style setup - YouTube

Quote:

Published on Jul 24, 2012

In this short clip I am testing this new setup according to Gap-Power_com experiments.
The RPM here is 1250, the power is being supplied by 12V 7.5 AHr battery.
The current draw is measured as a voltage drop on 0.1 Ohm shunt resistor and its value is 370 mA maximum. There are 6 N52 neodymium magnets on the rotor, the driving coils are bilfilar in series, 2 in series, 4 Ohms total resistance and about 15 mH inductance together.
A Hall sensor turns on a MOSFET transistor on an approaching magnet to neutralize repelling force from the stack of magnets behind the driving coils that push the rotor at Top Dead Center when the power is off.
In that moment the coil becomes a generator coil as the core (magnetite powder + iron powder + resin) switches polarity and returns much of the energy back to the battery.
This can be seen on the scope trace as the lover curve bump, below the marker line.
It seems to be a very efficient motor, the cores do not heat up, more testing to come...
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Last edited by vidbid; 10-31-2014 at 04:09 PM.
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Old 10-31-2014, 03:46 PM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
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Yes, I am familiar with the gap motor. I quite like that one.

Looking at the David Scott article we can see the stator magnets appear to be set on a slant, we also see that the iron keeper is close enough to the end magnets on the stator to effect the magnetic field in that position. We also see that the rotor magnet is many times wider than any of the stator magnets which may nullify any cogging like what I just described.

I believe there is more to this than meets the eye.
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Old 10-31-2014, 08:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbrownn View Post
Yes, I am familiar with the gap motor. I quite like that one.

Looking at the David Scott article we can see the stator magnets appear to be set on a slant, we also see that the iron keeper is close enough to the end magnets on the stator to effect the magnetic field in that position. We also see that the rotor magnet is many times wider than any of the stator magnets which may nullify any cogging like what I just described.

I believe there is more to this than meets the eye.
Here is the gap-power rotary "magnetic neutralization" motor:






Notice the magnets on outer sides of the coils.

Regards,

VIDBID
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Old 11-01-2014, 01:32 PM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
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Ah uts a different gap motor from the one i know
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Old 06-07-2015, 09:26 AM
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Lightbulb Wankel Crop Circle



I came across this image and thought it worth posting here.

..more on spiral magnet motors: Spiral Magnet Motor
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Old 12-28-2018, 07:26 PM
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I'm replicating John Bedini magnetic wankel replication as seen in EFTV16. Does anyone know what timing method or circuit he used in his device? I can get the rotor to continually rotate at about 120rpm using a very crudely build commutator, however on his device i can see nothing of the sort. My guess is that he is using a trigger method similar to that found in his ssg circuit.

Cheers, Steve
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