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  #1  
Old 03-13-2010, 05:32 AM
gotoluc gotoluc is offline
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Self running coil?

Hi everyone,

I have a new effect involving a ferrite toroid coil which is being pulsed at a very specific frequency, duty cycle and uses a permanent magnet with an air gap.

It seems to be self running once started and the source battery can be disconnected and the capacitor will maintain its charge and in fact gain energy.

I found this effect over a week ago and since then in my spare time have been trying to find what I could be overlooking. So far I have not found anything, so I invite anyone to comment as to what I may of missed.

The video demo: YouTube - Self Running Coil test 1

If the magnet is removed there is no effect

If the magnet has no air gap there is no effect

If the frequency is changed there is no effect

If I leave the battery connected it does not drain in voltage and actually seems to be charging the battery.

I have changed the mosfet with the same IRF640 and it is the same. I tried it with IRF840 and it works but not quite as good as the IRF640

The effect only seems to work at low voltage 2.80vdc is about the highest I got it to go so far.

Please feel free to share you comments or concerns.

Luc

Here is the up to date circuit at this time:

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Old 03-13-2010, 06:42 AM
rave154 rave154 is offline
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Great work LUC ( as usual ! )

My first thought, do you have any high-turn precision pots .. mine are 20 turn or 22 turn, i used them on the pwm circuit when we were doing the Re-cycling the BEMF circuit,

basically i found the rough area i was was looking for in terms of resistance.. [ which you already have found]...i then measured what the value of the crude pot was...subtracted a little from this value and made up a resistance of this value using normal resistors plus my precision pot which then enabled me to "scan" through the range with more precision until i found the area i was looking for.

in fact, once the precision pot is in place, it would be interesting to see a sort of graph of duty cycle (x axis ) versus voltage on cap (y axis ) for different values around the "peak" you appear to have found. There may well be a "spot" in there that has an even higher value once it is found.

So basically, if indeed you havent missed anything ( which it appears you havent )...a pulse taken from the cap is being fed into the coil... and the returning "whatever it is" is greater than what was taken out thus the cap voltage increases..its also interesting that the cap voltage went up when the battery was removed...looks like the battery was acting to hold the whole back rather than helping.

oh, one last thought, as you stated in the video, when you adjust the duty cycle the freq' also changes and vice versa...so with that in mind, the effect may be sensitive to one or other of those parameters or indeed both...

as a quicky test to try and determine which factor ( duty or freq ) the effect is sensitive to... could you setup your system using the same duty cycle as you had in the video..but using a fairly different freq...say.15Khz...

then.. reverse.....setup using the same freq as the first video ( 18Khz...but using a very much different duty cycle..say...10% or something )

both os these tests ( if you havent already tried them ) should give a good indication of which factor the effect is senstive to.

one last thought, could some current coming from the 555 into the GATE of the mosfet be beinf fed into the coil also thus helping to create whats going on?....to test for this.... replace the 12V battery that was feeding the 555 circuit...and try a 6V ( which the 555 should happily run on ) or a 9V.

Great Stuff
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Old 03-13-2010, 08:07 AM
rave154 rave154 is offline
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LUC, im posting this here, because A) i think youll find it fascinating ..and B) its pretty much all about a toroid...


http://www.energeticforum.com/attach...sfluxan-2-.pdf
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Old 03-13-2010, 11:34 AM
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Michael John Nunnerley Michael John Nunnerley is online now
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similar effect to STEAP

Hi Luc

Nice video as always. This is very similar to my STEAP set up. Try taking away the cap and connect a coil and cap in series instead. The cap should be around .33mf, also put a blocking diode on your negative feed from the PWM to the coil so as once you have it tuned up, the LC circuit will go into self oscillation.

Now if this works you could replace the pwm with a coil and reed sw setup where the coil is driven from the BEMF and you may then have your self runner. This is what I did, and the duty and frequency is critical. The thing that changes in your set up to mine is the magnets, interesting, I will have to try that!

Mike
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Old 03-13-2010, 12:24 PM
b4FreeEnergy b4FreeEnergy is offline
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Some time ago I found a similar setup on the site of Jean-Louis Naudin (2SGen, an amazing tiny Solid State Generator by JL Naudin) Hes been experimenting with Neodymium magnets and a similar coil as to what you have. He did not have the gap between the magnet and the coil though. How exactly did you do the windings on the coil?
Best regards,
B
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Old 03-13-2010, 05:31 PM
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IMHO you are producing radiant energy. Maybe you should check if a additional coil around magnet or nearby toroid gives any voltage.
Simple answer - you are getting energy from or using permanent magnet, I think all will agree. Ha ha ha ! They said it can't be done !
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Old 03-13-2010, 07:25 PM
gotoluc gotoluc is offline
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Hi all,

thanks for your interest.

I made a new video to help with questions or doubts since I know it is had to believe that you can pulse a coil and more energy seems to be coming back. It took me over a week of testing different things after I found this effect to try to find what I could be overlooking but came up with nothing yet.

Video: YouTube - Self Running Coil test 2

Luc
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Old 03-13-2010, 08:10 PM
rave154 rave154 is offline
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LUC......Namaste for your efforts, seriously !

the only possible "thing" i can think of.........is that a current is seeping through the gate of the mosfet into the coil.......somehow ( remember, im not the electronics wizzkid here by any means ).....other than that......im kinda gettin goose bumps at what youve stumbled on.

ty, for doing the 9V battery swap btw.

damn ive got like a thousand thoughts going on right now

ok, how about this...... FWBR coming off the toroid, to a cap, to collect the BEMF ( flyback) from the pulses......to power.....an LED ( bulb? )


since the coil is effectively running "for nothing"...... why not collect the flyback and power a load. of course while im typing all of this....what im really leading up to is...... some way......to take whats coming out......and feed it back in......the only problem is that the 555 takes minimum of 5V to run....even the CMOS version of it takes the same i belive although it runs on a lot less amps.

LUC......while youve got the circuit running as it is....... have you played around with other magnets......wafting them on or around the toroid as the circuit is running and observing changes in cap voltage?

p.s did you read the PDF i posted,,,,,,its a real revelation in terms of "transformer action"....it really put into place some of the questions i had in terms of......"why does 1 turn on the 2ndary = 1 volt"......etc , a real eye opener.

keep going man

Ahimsa to you

David. D
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Old 03-13-2010, 08:28 PM
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Ah,if you could show us magnetic field around working toroid with and without neo magnets ! Optocoupler would be also best to check leaking current through gate.
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Old 03-13-2010, 09:00 PM
gotoluc gotoluc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rave154 View Post
LUC......Namaste for your efforts, seriously !

the only possible "thing" i can think of.........is that a current is seeping through the gate of the mosfet into the coil.......somehow ( remember, im not the electronics wizzkid here by any means ).....other than that......im kinda gettin goose bumps at what youve stumbled on.

ty, for doing the 9V battery swap btw.

damn ive got like a thousand thoughts going on right now

ok, how about this...... FWBR coming off the toroid, to a cap, to collect the BEMF ( flyback) from the pulses......to power.....an LED ( bulb? )


since the coil is effectively running "for nothing"...... why not collect the flyback and power a load. of course while im typing all of this....what im really leading up to is...... some way......to take whats coming out......and feed it back in......the only problem is that the 555 takes minimum of 5V to run....even the CMOS version of it takes the same i belive although it runs on a lot less amps.

LUC......while youve got the circuit running as it is....... have you played around with other magnets......wafting them on or around the toroid as the circuit is running and observing changes in cap voltage?

p.s did you read the PDF i posted,,,,,,its a real revelation in terms of "transformer action"....it really put into place some of the questions i had in terms of......"why does 1 turn on the 2ndary = 1 volt"......etc , a real eye opener.

keep going man

Ahimsa to you

David. D
Hi David,

thanks for your pdf and support.

I believe when the Toroids magnet and pulse Frequency perimeters are all set right the Toroid coil goes into Resonance. Since connecting my probe or bringing any ferromagnetic material close by the Toroid has a negative effect (becomes un-tuned).

I tried collecting Flyback and it is possible, however when I do the math it all comes to the same. What I mean is the flyback energy you collect is that much less going back to the source capacitor.

I made a new video to further explain the the importance of the Frequency, Duty Cycle and mostly the Permanent magnet that without it there is no Frequency that will create this effect.


If we think about it ... I only remove the magnet from the toroid coil and it starts to use current, so how can the energy that was going back to the source of been coming from the MOSFET gate pulse and now suddenly stop

New video: YouTube - Self Running Coil test 3

Luc
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Old 03-13-2010, 09:43 PM
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Nice work on this gotoluc I've been thinking along these lines lately also if I could only get the time - I may have to make time to try this one.

Lots of voltage doubler circuits out there if you decide to try for a complete self runner - which of course would then eliminate any need to isolate the 555 circuit. You would just need a brief battery kick start to get things going (at least we can all hope) Maybe this one would work:

Making the DC-DC Converter
The following parts are necessary to make this 0.7 to 5 Volt DC boost converter together with leads and either prototyping breadboard or soldering equipment and a board:

1 x MAX756
2 x 100uF Capacitors
2 x 0.1uF Capactitors
1 x 1N5817 Schottky Diode
1 x 22uH Power Inductor

The MAX756 is available direct from MAXIM with prices ranging from $3.02 (ordering 1-24) down to $1.95 (ordering 1000+). We can supply the rest of the components through the REUK Shop if required - email us to request a quote listing the components and quantities you require.

Circuit Diagram below

The circuit was tested using two 'flat' AA rechargeable batteries. The total voltage of the batteries was measured at 2.21 Volts, and the output voltage from the circuit was measured at exactly 5.00 Volts with a digital multimeter. The output voltage was used to power an ultrabright LED for 24 hours (through a 270 Ohm current limiting resistor) without any sign of dimming during that time.
The above is from :
DC Voltage Multiplier Circuit Plans - Electric Circuit
Attached Images
File Type: gif dc-dc-converter-circuit-max756.gif (2.7 KB, 104 views)
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Old 03-13-2010, 10:13 PM
gotoluc gotoluc is offline
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Hi all,

Gyula has posted this explanation at the OU topic as the probable cause of the effect.

Hi Luc,

Thanks for your explanations in the second video.

Now my understanding on your circuit is that the MOSFET output capacitance (CDS and the 44.6mH toroidal coil forms a parallel resonant circuit at 18.8kHz. How?
See the data sheet for your IRF640: http://www.irf.com/product-info/data...ta/irf640n.pdf

See Fig. 5 in Page 4, and the output capacitance curve, Coss, shows about 1500-1600pF at 1V drain-source voltage (taken at VGS=0V).
And if you calculate the C value from the 18.8kHz resonant frequency using the 44.6mH toroid coil value, you get 1.61nF capacitor value! (I used this online calculator: LC Resonance Frequency Calculator at WhatCircuits.com )

This explains why the distance of the magnets from the core is so precisely needed to adjust: you simply change and fine tune the toroidal inductance for the best value for getting the highest output voltage which can occur at the highest impedance a parallel LC circuit provides. No resonance=no max output. The drastic change in the output capacitance also explains why you find the "effect" works at no higher than 2.8V DC: the capacitance gets reduced under the 1000pF values and the LC circuit impedance becomes lower and lower. You seem to nicely finetune the output circuit for most favorable match of the components that ensures the highest possible output.

The battery surely limits the rising of the capacitor voltage and there must be some charging current also flowing into the battery from the cap.

The phenomena of your needing to place the battery back into the circuit to get the "effect" again (after that the cap was fully discharged) is explained by also the 'wrong' value of the output capacitance at zero drain-source value: it simply much higher than 1.6nF and the battery voltage brings it within range. (Just check your unused IRF640 drain source output capacitance in itself, not connected anywhere but to a C meter if you have one, first short circuit the gate-source pins with a piece of wire to really switch it off because the higher than 1nF gate-source input cap likes to store voltage for a longer time.)

There remains to explain your flat current trace during the ON time of the FET but unfortunately I cannot give a correct explanation yet. One possibility:
I think the mistery "flat current" trace of mainly zero value is not really zero but its average value is much smaller than for instance in the case of the 10 Ohm resistor. Because the FET switched output resistance looks like to be higher than 10 Ohm due to the low duty cycle drive it receives at the gate-source input. I know this does not fully explain it though, will be thinking on it. And others here are kindly invited to share their thoughts.

rgds, Gyula
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Old 03-13-2010, 10:54 PM
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Just to share what I saw in your 3rd video as I was also following at OU here's a point I think may be important - quote from what I posted @ OU:

Luc, the point at which the caps started going negative in voltage after the coil was disconnected and the caps were quickly drained with the 10 Ohm resistor and before the 1.2 volt battery was put back on -- I take that as a good sign - as the coil was hooked back up at that point and since the only power in the circuit could be coming from the timer circuit and it was actually reversing the charge - it seems that may be important to note since if they were charging in a positive way then you might have to consider the voltage was leaking through from the timer circuit. I think (may be way off here) that would indicate the timer circuit/and or Mosfet is NOT leaking voltage into the caps. And that's great news!
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Old 03-13-2010, 11:01 PM
gyula gyula is offline
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Hi Luc,

Ok on your posting my answer here but let me add the rest I wrote some minutes later, to complete my explanation:

Hi Luc,

Just watched your 3rd video and now I think I know why you have a flat current line during the FET on-time.
It is explained by the resonant circuit high impedance: THERE IS current but very much less than say in the case of the 10 Ohm resistor.
And when you drastically detune the LC circuit from 18.8 or so kHz, by removing the magnet, the high impedance immediately gets reduced and current is taken from the capacitor (or from the battery if it is connected).

rgds, Gyula
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Old 03-13-2010, 11:24 PM
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I'm still fairly lost in much of this as it's been so long since I've built circuits. I'm trying to understand what Gyula said in what is actually limiting voltage to around 2.8 volts. What would you say is the actual limiting part or concept that limits it to that voltage? Coil size? Mosfet? Or?
BTW can you post the schematic of just the coil circuit and part specs beyond the IRF640? I think I may have everything except I'm not sure what the small cap is in the breadboard by the Mosfet. I think since I've got a digital signal generator I wouldn't need the timer circuit although if this all works out it would be incredible to have it all running from it's own power. Thanks for any help with this.
edit: Ahhh I see Gyula is here now - thanks for your expertise in this also - your understanding is way ahead of mine in this.
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Old 03-13-2010, 11:31 PM
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Wow! Leave it to luc Well i have no idea how its charging the cap, very interesting. I do have my own opinions about why the magnets are necessary. I dont think the energy is coming from the magnets. And i dont think it has to do with the inductance, but obviously inductance is important for the resonant condition. I think it has to do with setting the flux circulating in the core back to zero after the pulse is shut off. Thats why ive never been the biggest supporter of using toroids for dc applications, the mags are required to collapse the field all the way, and i think you have used the mags to tuned it to the sweet spot of the core. I suspect that the higher the voltage on the caps, the more out of tune it will become. I think it should be possible to do the same thing by using a flyback core and adjusting the core gap. But you found a way to tune the toroid so apparently that works too. Cant wait to see where this one goes, great work!

Cody
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Old 03-13-2010, 11:34 PM
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The 2.8V limiting is explained by the drain-source capacitance change vs drain-source DC voltage: if the voltage is increased the capacitance decreases, hence the resonant frequency of the LC circuit created would also change. But because the input frequency does not change from the 555, the voltage on the drain side should stay where is was earlier, if it is changed by force from outside for instance then the drain-source capacitance would also change so the parallel LC resonance high impedance would suffer where the max voltage come from.

Gyula
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Old 03-14-2010, 12:18 AM
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The 2.8V limiting is explained by the drain-source capacitance change vs drain-source DC voltage: if the voltage is increased the capacitance decreases, hence the resonant frequency of the LC circuit created would also change. But because the input frequency does not change from the 555, the voltage on the drain side should stay where is was earlier, if it is changed by force from outside for instance then the drain-source capacitance would also change so the parallel LC resonance high impedance would suffer where the max voltage come from.

Gyula
I think I somewhat follow what you are saying here. Would you say then that even with a number of component changes to balance out other changes that it might or might not be possible to create a circuit doing this same effect but at a higher voltage - say 12 volts? I guess I always try to think in terms of what can be real world useful. Of course even if it is held to around 2.8 volts if you can get enough current out of it than a voltage boost or multiplier circuit will take care of making it real world useful.
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Old 03-14-2010, 12:37 AM
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I think I may have everything except I'm not sure what the small cap is in the breadboard by the Mosfet.
Hi ewizard,

the small cap is the capacitance for the 555 timer for desired frequency range.

I have it set up this way so I can easily change that parameter.

Luc
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Old 03-14-2010, 02:46 AM
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luc,
you always come up with the most interesting experiments. your a star. thanks for always showing these.
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Old 03-14-2010, 03:05 AM
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Hi ewizard,

the small cap is the capacitance for the 555 timer for desired frequency range.

I have it set up this way so I can easily change that parameter.

Luc
Thanks Luc, I've ordered a couple IRF640's and intend to try this circuit as soon as I can get the time. I found this video that may have some relevance here as well as being very interesting in itself. What struck me was the concept that the pulsing in the coil may be altering the flux field in the neo magnets and then as the coil power goes off briefly the flux bounces back thus generating some power. This may have already been stated here in other terms that I didn't understand. I see it now though as a possible way that power is being generated here I think.
Here's the vid: YouTube - Free Energy - Power Generator
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Old 03-14-2010, 06:18 AM
rave154 rave154 is offline
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LUC,

thanks for the extra tests

attatched is a circuit i collected on my travels....it would use your sig gen as opposed to the 555 though...

Hope this helps
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Old 03-14-2010, 07:28 AM
Schpankme Schpankme is offline
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using MOSFET... IRF840 works but not quite as good as the IRF640
Excellent Demo.

IRF640 ... 18A, 200V, 0.180 Ohm, N-Channel Power MOSFET

IRF840 ... 08A, 500V, 0.850 Ohm, N-Channel Power MOSFET

- Schpankme
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Old 03-14-2010, 09:37 AM
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. I see it now though as a possible way that power is being generated here I think.
Here's the vid: YouTube - Free Energy - Power Generator
This forum goes in cycles, as once a member told me. This youtube arrangement is basically MEG's one and there is not any FE about it.

I explain. In theory this setup could work. Actually and in practice, it could redirect the magnetic field of the permanent magnets over the receiving coils and thus multiply their incoming flux.
BUT, this works as long as the pick-up coils are not powering any load. As they do, they develop a counter B-flux to the L1 coil manipulating B-flux and they neutralize its (L1) action.

In other words the magnetic impedence rises on the receiving part and stops PM flux going that way. Actually as i see it, it can only extract as much energy as it is injected to L1 manipulating coil minus losses.
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Old 03-14-2010, 11:54 AM
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I think I somewhat follow what you are saying here. Would you say then that even with a number of component changes to balance out other changes that it might or might not be possible to create a circuit doing this same effect but at a higher voltage - say 12 volts? I guess I always try to think in terms of what can be real world useful. Of course even if it is held to around 2.8 volts if you can get enough current out of it than a voltage boost or multiplier circuit will take care of making it real world useful.
@ewizard

At the ou forum Magluvin suggested Luc use a series 10 kOhm resistor between the output of the 555 and the MOSFET gate, to see if the energy to the toroidal coil comes from that direction. Luc answered:
"Well, it's no go with the 10K resistor on the 555 output and the mosfet gate :P
Back to the drawing board ;D
Luc"

To answer your question above: as soon as you solve the 'problem' of the decreasing drain-source capacitance change in function of the drain-source voltage change and this way you can keep the output LC circuit at resonance too, then you may use higher voltages.

The circuit Luc built boils down to a resonant LC tank circuit which is 'kicked' at a regular pace from a 555 pulse generator. The operation is a bit difficult to understand because the C in the tank is composed from the MOSFET (voltage-dependent) output capacitance and the L is the magnet-tunable toroidal coil. If you change drain-source voltage, you change the C which detunes the LC resonant frequency. If you compensate this 'detuning' by retuning the input pulse frequency, it sounds fine up to a certain (narrow) frequency range. Luc wrote on this:
"I did experiment with changing the frequency as the voltage rises some days ago. The best score was 2.83vdc. Anything higher than that it starts to consume current from the cap bank no matter how much tuning I do.
I wish it was not so but it is."

The limiting factor is matching the used components in a circuit where the main component: the MOSFET changes its inter-electrode capacitances whenever voltage levels change and at the same time the MOSFET is an active part of the tank as being the C member of it.

rgds, Gyula
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Old 03-14-2010, 12:25 PM
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Imho you are right about MOSFET capacitance and if that changed relating to voltage then it's actually an embodiment of something important.
LC circuit with non-rigid elements.The electric energy can flow infinitely here.
If that is what I think then driving mosfet throught optocoupler it will work also and surely will be the proof.
Can you get zener diode and led to check if there is a current in capacitor ? Once the voltage climb to 2.5V the zener should pass current and light the led. Would be hard to get led for so small voltage though, maybe JouleThieft circuit is needed.
I think those are is very important experiments going on ! Thank you gotoluc !
Parametrical oscillator.
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Old 03-14-2010, 12:26 PM
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free energy Steven Mark solid state generator video 2
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Old 03-14-2010, 01:39 PM
rave154 rave154 is offline
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LUC

i have replicated your setup as best i can, using my 494 pwm since it has independant freq & duty adjustment...

i have "kind of" got where you are.in terms of.when the batt is connected.....its voltage raises ( charges? )....however...i cannot get to where you are when you discomnnect the battery.and maintain and even increase the voltage on the cap......my Q...

how did you asceratin the correct freqeuncy & duty ( & position of mag )

three variables there....how on earth did you stumble onto the right set of three?

i have scanned through the frequencys and "kind of" found a decent spot as described above......but it seems like looking for a piece of straw in a giant stack of needles

p.s my toroid is of a similar size and cosntrution as yours.and im using a single 10mm dia x 5mm thick disc neo ( N38 i belive )

p.p.s... as for the magent......does the effect still show....if you leave everything the same..and reverse the magnet?
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Last edited by rave154; 03-14-2010 at 01:44 PM.
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Old 03-14-2010, 01:54 PM
bigjohn070 bigjohn070 is offline
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Is there a way to run your 555
from the capacitor bank?

Nice Work
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Old 03-14-2010, 05:46 PM
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ewizard ewizard is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baroutologos View Post
This forum goes in cycles, as once a member told me. This youtube arrangement is basically MEG's one and there is not any FE about it.

I explain. In theory this setup could work. Actually and in practice, it could redirect the magnetic field of the permanent magnets over the receiving coils and thus multiply their incoming flux.
BUT, this works as long as the pick-up coils are not powering any load. As they do, they develop a counter B-flux to the L1 coil manipulating B-flux and they neutralize its (L1) action.

In other words the magnetic impedence rises on the receiving part and stops PM flux going that way. Actually as i see it, it can only extract as much energy as it is injected to L1 manipulating coil minus losses.
baroutologos, Thank you for letting me know about that one. I had assumed since it was up on youtube for almost 11 months that someone would have been on to it by now if it was a working idea. It sounds good in theory anyway but theory doesn't always equate to real world usable.
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