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Bedini RPX Sideband Generator
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  #61  
Old 03-18-2010, 03:19 AM
gmeast gmeast is offline
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getting close

Hey Luc,

That's looking good vids 5 & 6 great (as usual). In Vid #5, you might note that even though you see a voltage spike, it may mean very little because these are Mosfets. What we need to know is what kind of current is flowing because usually driver current is represented in uA. That's what's nice about MOSFETS is that they are charge (field) controlled devices. Because there is capacitance at a MOSFET gate, the driver circuit ends up with the task of sinking power required to present a 'crisp' switching charge at the gate.

So what we need to do is to monitor the gate power dissipated by the driver (pulse generator) at the gate and compare that power to the power charging you cap(s). Then tune accordingly.

I found this pdf on Mosfets and it's pretty good:

http://02d1852.netsolhost.com/plasma/mosfet.pdf

Greg
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  #62  
Old 03-18-2010, 03:50 AM
gotoluc gotoluc is offline
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Originally Posted by gmeast View Post
Hey Luc,

That's looking good vids 5 & 6 great (as usual). In Vid #5, you might note that even though you see a voltage spike, it may mean very little because these are Mosfets. What we need to know is what kind of current is flowing because usually driver current is represented in uA. That's what's nice about MOSFETS is that they are charge controlled devices. Because there is capacitance at a MOSFET gate, the driver circuit ends up with the task of sinking power required to present a 'crisp' switching charge at the gate.

So what we need to do is to monitor the gate power dissipated by the driver (pulse generator) at the gate and compare that power to the power charging you cap(s). Then tune accordingly.

I found this pdf on Mosfets and it's pretty good:

http://02d1852.netsolhost.com/plasma/mosfet.pdf

Greg
Hi Greg,

I agree, I'll try to measure the generator feed current across a 10 Ohm resistor using my scope and post the scope shot.

Please also look at my posts at the OU topic as it contains much important information. Link: Self running coil?

Here is a new schematic that was made by OU user: HarryV

It is being edited as each windings need to both start on the same side of the core and not opposed sides as shown. This could be the key to making this work!!!... as I have another coil which is wound standard and I can't get it to work no mater what I try.

Luc
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  #63  
Old 03-18-2010, 05:05 AM
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Just some other info I stumbled across that may be important as it was from a fairly obscure source. It was stated in such circuits as this that if it can be made to run above 20 Khz that by adding an Earth ground in the circuit you may find your amperage increases substantially. I see you are now running well above 20 Khz so maybe this will be worth a try if you haven't already. Thanks for the schematic and I just popped back in here a minute ago so I haven't seen the new vid's yet but thanks for those too as I'll be on them in a minute
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  #64  
Old 03-18-2010, 06:54 AM
rave154 rave154 is offline
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LUC,

2 more great vids

thanks a lot for taking time to do those.

I kind of agree that it may well be that the winding of your coil is having an effect here ( along with all the other factors ) since in my setup using a "standard" toroid..i can kind of see the "peaks" that your talking about which in your setup enable you to get the minus current on the meter...which i cannot get on mine..

if you can find time, maybe in your next vid or whatever, could you explain 'exactly' the orientation of the windings..and which end is where etc...i happen to have found a toroid that is exactly the same dimension as yours ( from a PS )..and have the same wire as you... i will wind it to your exact specifications as soon as i know precisely how its wound. A sort of kneedle & thread demo of how its wound, so to speak, so theres no ambiguity.

Thanks again for your fantastic efforts

David. D
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  #65  
Old 03-18-2010, 12:48 PM
gyula gyula is offline
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Originally Posted by gotoluc View Post
@Gyula, can you please explain how the 3vpp measured gate leak between the source and drain is capable of keeping the circuit running NOW at 30vdc, 57KHz with 50% duty cycle without using any current and maintaining 1.90vdc on the pickup coil with 49,850 Ohm load. Thank you for your help and time

Test 5 video: YouTube - Self Running Coil test 5

Test 6 video: YouTube - Self Running Coil test 6

Luc
Hi Luc,

Here is my answer, written last late night, copied from Stefan's forum:

The drain source channel of the MOSFET is practically a short circuit for the ON time (actually the RDS value of the IRF640, data sheet), the ON time now means half wave duration (earlier you used 18-20% or so duty cycle, this meant less ON time, more OFF time).

The drain source channel of the MOSFET is very high resistance for the OFF time, and both the output capacitance of the MOSFET and the body diode is in parallel with the drain source, the OFF time means the other half wave duration of the full pulse time. Now the output capacitance is about a few ten to a few hundred pF only, because the drain source voltage is much higher than earlier, up to 30V.
I still think the resonant tank LC circuit is formed by the output capacitance of the FET and from the 221mH (magnet-tuned) toroidal coil.

The FET as a switch pumps energy into the tank circuit from your generator and you have to consider not only the 3V peak to peak voltage but the current spikes shown in your earlier videos as flat lines between the spikes.

I think the input energy comes from these two: the 3Vpp and the spikes. The flat line between the spikes is explainable from the fact that the input is a square-wave: suddenly appears across the coil then its amplitude remains more or less constant, this means no or a very little flux change, then the square wave returns to zero, this also causes a flux change in the core again, current spike appears again.

So to estimate the real input power to the tank somehow those current spikes should be studied, I believe these maintain the voltage in the caps.
Resonant LC circuits have voltage 'amplification' properties, this depends on the loaded Q factor too. In you circuit this is modified a little, the normal Q times multiplier is not fully valid, due to the half wave rectification inside the tank.

If I can, I will address some unanswered questions tomorrow.

Thanks, Gyula
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  #66  
Old 03-18-2010, 02:40 PM
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The most important question now ! Is your capacitor electrolytic one ?
I have stumbled with similar circuit few years ago but instead of self-running it was producing huge radiant energy , spreading electrostatic field around. I was scared and didn't do any further tests, but I'm quite sure that I would make it self-running using receiver coil. My coil was different however, not toroid.
Scott MCKie PODMOD device is something we should look at.imho
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  #67  
Old 03-18-2010, 03:16 PM
gotoluc gotoluc is offline
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Just some other info I stumbled across that may be important as it was from a fairly obscure source. It was stated in such circuits as this that if it can be made to run above 20 Khz that by adding an Earth ground in the circuit you may find your amperage increases substantially. I see you are now running well above 20 Khz so maybe this will be worth a try if you haven't already. Thanks for the schematic and I just popped back in here a minute ago so I haven't seen the new vid's yet but thanks for those too as I'll be on them in a minute
Thanks for the suggestion ewizard, It was not tested yet to Earth ground. I will add it to the list of thing to test.

If you don't see me post a result in a few days please remind me again.

Luc
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  #68  
Old 03-18-2010, 03:22 PM
gotoluc gotoluc is offline
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LUC,

2 more great vids

thanks a lot for taking time to do those.

I kind of agree that it may well be that the winding of your coil is having an effect here ( along with all the other factors ) since in my setup using a "standard" toroid..i can kind of see the "peaks" that your talking about which in your setup enable you to get the minus current on the meter...which i cannot get on mine..

if you can find time, maybe in your next vid or whatever, could you explain 'exactly' the orientation of the windings..and which end is where etc...i happen to have found a toroid that is exactly the same dimension as yours ( from a PS )..and have the same wire as you... i will wind it to your exact specifications as soon as i know precisely how its wound. A sort of kneedle & thread demo of how its wound, so to speak, so theres no ambiguity.

Thanks again for your fantastic efforts

David. D
Hi David,

at this time it seems to be pointing to coil geometry as I only have one coil that can give this effect, so let me look at this more closely and I'll report back with the details.

Luc
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  #69  
Old 03-18-2010, 03:49 PM
gotoluc gotoluc is offline
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Here is the up to date circuit at this time.
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  #70  
Old 03-18-2010, 04:23 PM
rave154 rave154 is offline
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LUC,]
thanks for the clear schematic ( even I can follow it lol )

eagerly awaiting coil winding descriptions/instructions...so i can get winding


p.s i have 3 of those toroid cores(from the power supplys)... 2 of which still have the original windings on....6 windings in all in all, consisting of 4 coils of fairly stout wire(maybe 1.1mm - 1.2mm)..another of about 0.8mm.and last one about 0.65mm..

if you have any ideas about any tests you would like me to try using those windings before i rip them off and wind the core as a replica of your own coil...feel free to ask.

David. D
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  #71  
Old 03-18-2010, 04:44 PM
rave154 rave154 is offline
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LUC, just looked at OU.com....found your edited schematic with the " windings start here" on it... makes sense now..

looking at it...you have it wired so that the two coils are producing a field that is in the same direction....ie..... as if they are one big coil.

Even though one of them is wound in the opposite direction around the circumference of the toroid it is also wound opposite in terms of clockwise/counter-clockwise in relation to the other coil....and since they are wired the way you have them......it is the same as one big coil. ( i think )

i'll have a look at my PS toroids windings and see if i can quickly throw together a quick replica of your coil without actually re-wiring them..

back in a bit
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  #72  
Old 03-18-2010, 04:59 PM
gotoluc gotoluc is offline
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Originally Posted by rave154 View Post
LUC, just looked at OU.com....found your edited schematic with the " windings start here" on it... makes sense now..

hmm.the more i look at how the coil is wound ( & connected ) and also WHERE you have the magnet....it looks like with the coil...you have two opposing "poles"...right where the magnet is.

with this setup, could the flux from the magnet be being made to switch somehow..and this is whats giving the extra power?

i'll have a look at my PS toroids windings and see if i can quickly throw together a quick replica of your coil without actually re-wiring them..

back in a bit
Hi David,

I just updated the above schematic.

I maybe wrong but I think that Inductance value maybe important!... because when you approach the magnet Inductance starts to drop real fast so you may need a very high value to start with. Maybe that's why I can't get the other toroid to do the same effect 850mH vs 1,050mH.

I don't know enough yet to tell what makes this work but that's what I think at this time. So making a quick coil maybe a waste. Take your time and get it to 1,000mH or more if you can and it should work.

I'm going to start winding another one with a heavier wire and try to raise the Inductance also.

Luc
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  #73  
Old 03-18-2010, 05:30 PM
gotoluc gotoluc is offline
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This was posted at the OU topic and thought it may help others here.

[quote author=canam101 link=topic=8892.msg233191#msg233191 date=1268931237]
Just looking at it from a layman's point of view, if I had such a circuit, and it looked like it was OU, the first thing I would do is to try to close the loop. If it stopped working when I tried it, it would at least get me working in a direction that would let me look at the reason for not being able to close the loop.

If it did close the loop, then after I got over my astonishment, I could try to find out what non-OU reason would allow me to close the loop. And it would be a hell of an incentive for everyone else to replicate what I had.

Either way, trying to close the loop would be very useful.

That may be a naive layman's view of it, but it is the reason I cannot understand why Luc doesn't even try to do this.
[/quote]


Hi canam101,

I personally would be surprised that the circuit (posted above) on its own would be OU

However, if we are able to make a Toroid with a magnet Resonate at next to no cost of energy since even the possible gate switching energy is being returned to the capacitor bank, then this is good.

What you and others who are not replicating may not be considering is that a pickup coil can added and real current can be extracted at no cost to the capacitor bank returned input energy.

This is where the possible OU or Free energy could be coming from. My tests so far show that when I add a load to the pickup coil it has no reverse effect on the input. JLN has demonstrated this also but he does not have his input at zero yet!

Also, there could be a possibility of multiple pickup coils added as the toroid seems to have an opposite field on each half and maybe on each side. So there could be 4 pickup coils. The other thing is the pickup coil I used is not tuned so it is not taking full advantage of the potential magnetic current.

Luc
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  #74  
Old 03-18-2010, 05:42 PM
rave154 rave154 is offline
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LUC,

thanks again for the input, i will have a lil go with the original windings ( I will measure the inductance of them all linked up together, if its close to 1000mH then ill go further ).....as i was thinking this.....i thought of this.....see attatchment

both the toroids are LUC's toroids ( which essentially run for nothing )...

with both toroids not powered...the flux from the magnet at north pole would be absorbed by the top toroid... likewise...the south pole of the Magnet would be absorbed by the bottom toroid...

when both toroids are energised at the same time, the magnet reacts as if the toroids arent actually there anymore....and the flux lines would suddenly spring out in the familiar "figure-8 on its side" kind of look..as they did.they would cut the golden pickup winding at 90 degrees...and....cut them again when the toroids are de-energised.
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  #75  
Old 03-18-2010, 06:40 PM
rave154 rave154 is offline
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RE- my last post, 2 piccys to illustrate what i meant about the flux lines
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  #76  
Old 03-18-2010, 09:06 PM
gotoluc gotoluc is offline
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Hi everyone,

thanks for all your interest, suggestions and encouragement.

I made a new video in hope it will help replicators to better understand how to tweak the signal generator for the Toroid coil to send back the most current. I also measured the current going to the gate using my scope probe across a carbon 100 Ohm resistor. The below scope shots are the results.

Link to video: YouTube - Self Running Coil test 7

Luc

This first scope shot is when the coil is at the neutral point (no current used)



This second shot is when it is tweaked to send most energy back. One can clearly see that less current is used when sending back the most current. This is difficult for me to understand
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  #77  
Old 03-18-2010, 10:29 PM
rave154 rave154 is offline
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LUC,

good video again, just what i needed for the tuning methodolgy

been looking at function generators, am in the mood to buy one.

for now, i have finished winding my toroid with the split windings as per yours.

i will put a pot / voltage divider on the gate from my 494 so i can vary the voltage to the gate.

hmm..... i think i know what i'll be doing this weekend ! lol
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  #78  
Old 03-18-2010, 11:45 PM
gotoluc gotoluc is offline
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Hi All,

a new video once again.

Link: YouTube - Self Running Coil test 8

Luc
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  #79  
Old 03-19-2010, 01:06 AM
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Great job Luc! That video really does say a lot about what is and is not going on.

gmeast, It sounds like you had some interesting work with the analog computers. Too bad on the MosFET's getting tossed out. I tend to be a real pack rat myself but I've also tossed a few things I wish I had now for this work. I recently stripped down several UPS's, computer power supplies and have got a number of monitors to go through. There are some really nice parts on the bigger UPS units I had but no IRF640's - got a couple of them on the way though as that's the only thing I lack.
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  #80  
Old 03-19-2010, 01:26 AM
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Good job gotoluc!
Take your air coil put 10 volt zener diodes (cathode too cathode)and resistors on it so when it is in a ac field there's square wave output. Run the gate of the center. Then it will start too self resonate. Adjust with resistors?
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  #81  
Old 03-19-2010, 03:29 AM
gotoluc gotoluc is offline
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Hi all,

here is a new video demonstrating a pickup coil and a LED as load.

Link: YouTube - Self Running Coil test 9

Luc
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  #82  
Old 03-19-2010, 05:00 AM
gmeast gmeast is offline
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nothin's leaking through

Quote:
Originally Posted by gotoluc View Post
Hi all,

here is a new video demonstrating a pickup coil and a LED as load.

Link: YouTube - Self Running Coil test 9

Luc
Hi Luc,

Remember that the gate/drain acts like a little capacitive 'cushion' or accumulator. The LED sees the pulsing from the generator as an AC VA. The LED is just being pumped by dirty AC. The leakage is even less than the soft glow of the LED suggests.

The 'relatively' inefficient coupling of the pickup coil and the toroid says it all. Do you know if there might be a transformer step-up effect from the p-u coil/toroid coupling?

Nice job slicing away at the doubts. This is very exciting, Gramps,

Greg
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  #83  
Old 03-19-2010, 06:24 AM
rave154 rave154 is offline
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Great vids again LUC

one small test, you may have already done it...

with the setup as in vid-9... have you placed the pickup coil over & around the magnets?

Enjoy your beak

David. D
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  #84  
Old 03-19-2010, 03:00 PM
gotoluc gotoluc is offline
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Originally Posted by ewizard View Post
Just some other info I stumbled across that may be important as it was from a fairly obscure source. It was stated in such circuits as this that if it can be made to run above 20 Khz that by adding an Earth ground in the circuit you may find your amperage increases substantially. I see you are now running well above 20 Khz so maybe this will be worth a try if you haven't already. Thanks for the schematic and I just popped back in here a minute ago so I haven't seen the new vid's yet but thanks for those too as I'll be on them in a minute
Hi ewizard,

just to let you know that yesterday I did try to ground the circuit at different locations but found no benefit.

Luc
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Old 03-19-2010, 03:12 PM
gotoluc gotoluc is offline
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Hi Luc,

Remember that the gate/drain acts like a little capacitive 'cushion' or accumulator. The LED sees the pulsing from the generator as an AC VA. The LED is just being pumped by dirty AC. The leakage is even less than the soft glow of the LED suggests.

The 'relatively' inefficient coupling of the pickup coil and the toroid says it all. Do you know if there might be a transformer step-up effect from the p-u coil/toroid coupling?

Nice job slicing away at the doubts. This is very exciting, Gramps,

Greg
Hi Greg,

thanks for your post and information.

As for the transformer coupling effect with the pickup coil. I can say that if there is one it is nothing like a regular transformer that is for sure. The toroid when tuned is behaving like a coil in resonance. If I introduce the pickup coil it gets a little out of tune but I can re-tune and it goes back to where it was. Once it is re-tuned, if I connect or disconnect the load (like the LED) nothing changes. So the re-tuning needed is maybe caused by introducing the mass of copper the pickup coil has?

Hope this answers your question

Luc
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Old 03-19-2010, 03:16 PM
gotoluc gotoluc is offline
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Great vids again LUC

one small test, you may have already done it...

with the setup as in vid-9... have you placed the pickup coil over & around the magnets?

Enjoy your beak

David. D
Hi David,

yes I have done that. The best pickup is a little away from the magnet and not over it.

Luc
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Old 03-19-2010, 03:22 PM
gotoluc gotoluc is offline
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Good job gotoluc!
Take your air coil put 10 volt zener diodes (cathode too cathode)and resistors on it so when it is in a ac field there's square wave output. Run the gate of the center. Then it will start too self resonate. Adjust with resistors?
@maxc and everyone

One way to Isolate the signal generator is to use an OPTO Isolator and connect the switching side of the OPTO to the capacitor bank to feed the mosfet gate. I do have a 4N35 and a H11D1 which I both tried last night but they are way too slow to shut off. At 1KHz they were at 95% duty and to full on with frequencies over that. My signal generator is fixed at 50% duty. So these are not working or I don't know how to connect them correctly. If someone with electronic knowledge can recommend an Isolator which could work a up to 50KHz and still keep the 50% duty cycle using a component that I can pickup locally please look at the two suppliers in my city for stock: RESET ELECTRONICS INC - or http://www.active123.com/

The other way is using the pickup coil to trigger the mosfet. This is complicated because the pickup coil is a sine wave that it peaks are out of phase with the mosfet pulses. So again I'm at a loss of how to use this energy or build a circuit that could create the very exact frequency, gate drive voltage and current that is needed.

I'll see if I can pickup a CMOS 555 locally and try to power it from the cap bank by keeping it in the 10vdc range.

AT EVERYONE If you know how to close the loop please provide a complete drawing of how to build it. Please do not just say do this and that. I am willing to do everything I can and I think I have done all I can with my minimal electronic knowledge I have.

Thank you for your time

Luc
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Old 03-19-2010, 06:40 PM
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@maxc and everyone

One way to Isolate the signal generator is to use an OPTO Isolator and connect the switching side of the OPTO to the capacitor bank to feed the mosfet gate. I do have a 4N35 and a H11D1 which I both tried last night but they are way too slow to shut off. At 1KHz they were at 95% duty and to full on with frequencies over that. My signal generator is fixed at 50% duty. So these are not working or I don't know how to connect them correctly. If someone with electronic knowledge can recommend an Isolator which could work a up to 50KHz and still keep the 50% duty cycle using a component that I can pickup locally please look at the two suppliers in my city for stock: RESET ELECTRONICS INC - or http://www.active123.com/

The other way is using the pickup coil to trigger the mosfet. This is complicated because the pickup coil is a sine wave that it peaks are out of phase with the mosfet pulses. So again I'm at a loss of how to use this energy or build a circuit that could create the very exact frequency, gate drive voltage and current that is needed.

I'll see if I can pickup a CMOS 555 locally and try to power it from the cap bank by keeping it in the 10vdc range.

AT EVERYONE If you know how to close the loop please provide a complete drawing of how to build it. Please do not just say do this and that. I am willing to do everything I can and I think I have done all I can with my minimal electronic knowledge I have.

Thank you for your time

Luc
Hi Luc,

I have been following your work and it is very interesting. You can try this circuit to isolate the energy coming from the SG. Keep up the good work I'm very excited, and I thing this has a potential of becoming an interesting device.

Regards,
Nenad
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Old 03-20-2010, 02:01 AM
gotoluc gotoluc is offline
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Thanks Nenad for the circuit.

Do you know about how much current this circuit will use?

I just tried 3 models of OPTO's and what is left of the pulse signal at the mofet gate is very ugly @20KHz it has next to no pulse width and much worse @30KHz. There is no way a signal like this will switch the mosfet correctly. The other problem is, I need a 10K resistor across the gate and source to turn the mosfet off after the pulse and that alone consumes 600 micro amps. at 20KHz let alone what the gate will use.

I picked up a CMOS 555 and from what I can measure it consumes 300 micro amps, so I'll play around with that and see what it can do.

Luc
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Old 03-20-2010, 04:49 AM
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Still waiting on some IRF640's but I have been ripping parts out of some old power supplies and UPS's and found a Motorola MTH30N25 which is a mosFET I thought I'd try in the meantime. I also found a humungous 10 pound torroid about 6.5" across and 1.75" thick.





I'm sure it's not wound right for this but I couldn't resist trying it. I also had a smaller torroid that looked like it was already wound correctly but unfortunately not nearly enough turns of wire. So I mostly played with the smaller one and found some narrow frequency points that ONLY with the magnet on produced some interesting (at least to me) scope patterns. These were mostly around 14 Khz but I found some other narrow ranges also. This was a square wave from a digital signal generator and scope shots from a digital 400 Mhz scope. I have rather little experience on o-scopes so I can't say much about this but would ask if anyone can tell me what if anything is unusual here. This is using only one probe. It seems like there are 3 or even 4 sine wave patterns in some cases. Scope probe was across the mosFET at the same place the signal generator was attached. And again these only would show up with a strong Neo attached with a spacer that was roughly 3/32" thick. As soon as I get time I'm going to try winding one correctly. At this point no voltage increases were found - I generally hit the cap with a battery for a couple seconds and then ran off the cap while watching the voltage slowly go down as I tuned the signal generator. Considering the number of things that are NOT right with this setup I was not surprised that I had no good news like Luc's been getting. Just getting started though and curious about the scope shots (the middle shot is without the magnet) :
Attached Images
File Type: jpg mosfetscope4.jpg (21.9 KB, 7 views)
File Type: jpg mosfetscope6.jpg (18.0 KB, 5 views)
File Type: jpg mosfetscope7.jpg (24.0 KB, 4 views)
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Last edited by ewizard; 03-20-2010 at 05:00 PM.
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