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Old 03-04-2010, 08:47 PM
Slovenia Slovenia is offline
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Closed Loop Freon Generator

Dennis Lee and some others put closed loop freon generators on the market for a short time before they got in trouble for doing so. There was a big company in California I think that had over 3,000 generators like this sold before they were put out of business.

Does anyone know how these systems worked. I think this is a technology we should implement.
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Old 03-04-2010, 09:40 PM
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ewizard ewizard is offline
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I'm not real sure what to think of Dennis Lee but he doesn't seem to have the best reputation. Whether it's the PTB trying to stop him or if he's just a scammer I'm not sure but I'd try finding someone who has one to see if they actually did work. I signed up (free at the time) for one of his home motor generators in which they would profit from the excess power it sold back to the utilities. That never came about although I still here rumors it may. That was probably 15 or so years ago. I do remember vaguely seeing him talk about a freon heat system back then but I don't have any idea how it worked.
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Old 03-04-2010, 10:36 PM
Slovenia Slovenia is offline
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Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by ewizard View Post
I'm not real sure what to think of Dennis Lee but he doesn't seem to have the best reputation. Whether it's the PTB trying to stop him or if he's just a scammer I'm not sure but I'd try finding someone who has one to see if they actually did work. I signed up (free at the time) for one of his home motor generators in which they would profit from the excess power it sold back to the utilities. That never came about although I still here rumors it may. That was probably 15 or so years ago. I do remember vaguely seeing him talk about a freon heat system back then but I don't have any idea how it worked.

Thanks. There was a California company that sold 3,000 of them before they were put out of business. I don't remember their name now but they may have been associated with Dennis Lee too. I remember the name of the company was a little different.

I'm going to do some searches and see if I can run across it again. There should be a patent on it somewhere.
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Old 03-04-2010, 11:00 PM
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Allcanadian Allcanadian is offline
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@slovenia
Quote:
Does anyone know how these systems worked. I think this is a technology we should implement.
This system is called a heat pump, here is a good resource to understand how it works---http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump. In simplistic terms you compress a gas then remove the heat from compressing it, we now have a cool compressed gas. If the compressed gas is now released it will expand to a larger volume and get colder which means it may now absorb heat from its surroundings and this is how an air conditioner works. What is not common knowledge is that this system does not "generate" heat nor cold, it only "moves" heat from one place to another. While an electric heater has an efficiency of near 100% a heat pump can be 400-600% efficient because it only moves heat and does not generate it directly due to molecular excitation. They normally use a term called COP (Coefficient Of Performance)instead of efficiency because science does not like to hear about things having an efficiency greater than 100% (COP 1) so they simply made up this fictional term (COP) to explain it. Notice that the energy moved (Heat) comes from one open space and is moved to another open space outside the context of the heat pump's internal system thus this is an "open system" and is not limited to a maximum of 100% efficiency because what is moved contains its own internal energy .
Dennis Lee was simply absorbing heat from outside air with the heat pumps evaporator coils and the heat from the hot condenser coils would then perform work to keep the system running and generate power. We can see that the heat pump is proven technology and we have high efficiency but this whole system must rely on the efficient transformation of heat at the condenser to mechanical work and then to electrical power. If these transformations from heat to electricity are efficient enough then it should be obvious that the system must run on its own. It is no different than a stirling engine running from the heat of the palm of your hand only in this case the heat is supplied by the environment. This whole system is based on the efficient conversion of heat to electricity to power the system, without this it cannot work.
There are new systems out that can actually cool your house and instead wasting half the energy by blowing all the Heat outside as normally happens they use this heat to produce hot water. Let me put this in perspective--In 1842, Florida physician John Gorrie used compressor technology to create ice, which he used to cool air for his patients in his hospital in Apalachicola, Florida. He hoped eventually to use his ice-making machine to regulate the temperature of buildings. This was essentially the first "air conditioner", in 1842. 140 years later ---- I say 140 years later !!, someone that is not a complete half-wit finally figures out that maybe we could use the waste heat as well to actually heat domestic water. Such is the state of modern science and technology, they can build a nuclear reactor or particle accelerator but find it impossible to improve upon a simple air conditioner, LOL.
Regards
AC
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Old 03-04-2010, 11:09 PM
Slovenia Slovenia is offline
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Patent Number US4255934

This may be the patent for the device I am referring to. If so, it's patent number US4255934. This particular patent was invented by Roger B. Stephenson of Pompano Beach, Florida in 1981.

http://i45.tinypic.com/30be9n5.jpg

If someone else knows of another patent or instance, please let us know.

Last edited by Slovenia : 03-04-2010 at 11:10 PM. Reason: Fixed Link
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Old 03-04-2010, 11:13 PM
Slovenia Slovenia is offline
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Thanks AC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allcanadian View Post
@slovenia


This system is called a heat pump, here is a good resource to understand how it works---http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump. In simplistic terms you compress a gas then remove the heat from compressing it, we now have a cool compressed gas. If the compressed gas is now released it will expand to a larger volume and get colder which means it may now absorb heat from its surroundings and this is how an air conditioner works. What is not common knowledge is that this system does not "generate" heat nor cold, it only "moves" heat from one place to another. While an electric heater has an efficiency of near 100% a heat pump can be 400-600% efficient because it only moves heat and does not generate it directly due to molecular excitation. They normally use a term called COP (Coefficient Of Performance)instead of efficiency because science does not like to hear about things having an efficiency greater than 100% (COP 1) so they simply made up this fictional term (COP) to explain it. Notice that the energy moved (Heat) comes from one open space and is moved to another open space outside the context of the heat pump's internal system thus this is an "open system" and is not limited to a maximum of 100% efficiency because what is moved contains its own internal energy .
Dennis Lee was simply absorbing heat from outside air with the heat pumps evaporator coils and the heat from the hot condenser coils would then perform work to keep the system running and generate power. We can see that the heat pump is proven technology and we have high efficiency but this whole system must rely on the efficient transformation of heat at the condenser to mechanical work and then to electrical power. If these transformations from heat to electricity are efficient enough then it should be obvious that the system must run on its own. It is no different than a stirling engine running from the heat of the palm of your hand only in this case the heat is supplied by the environment. This whole system is based on the efficient conversion of heat to electricity to power the system, without this it cannot work.
There are new systems out that can actually cool your house and instead wasting half the energy by blowing all the Heat outside as normally happens they use this heat to produce hot water. Let me put this in perspective--In 1842, Florida physician John Gorrie used compressor technology to create ice, which he used to cool air for his patients in his hospital in Apalachicola, Florida. He hoped eventually to use his ice-making machine to regulate the temperature of buildings. This was essentially the first "air conditioner", in 1842. 140 years later ---- I say 140 years later !!, someone that is not a complete half-wit finally figures out that maybe we could use the waste heat as well to actually heat domestic water. Such is the state of modern science and technology, they can build a nuclear reactor or particle accelerator but find it impossible to improve upon a simple air conditioner, LOL.
Regards
AC
Thanks AC. I appreciate it!!
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Old 03-04-2010, 11:14 PM
RonL RonL is offline
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freon generator

I'm not sure that I have ever heard of Dennis Lee, but I have been on several websites with an idea that i have tried to present, one which has received almost no response of any kind.

Instead of freon I propose using propane in a closed loop cycle and compressed air in an open cycle. The end results is a simple positive output that is equal to the volume of air moved through the system and how much heat has been extracted, from atmospheric temperature at the point taken in and how much cooler it is at discharge.

I have an appointment to make in a few minutes, so if anyone wants more info I'll give a little more detail later tonight or as soon as I can before the weekend.

Ron

P.S. I have been lurking around here for a while and have picked up some info on lead/acid batteries that has answered some questions that I have been looking for, a long time. Also the thread on friction heating has really got my attention.
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Old 03-05-2010, 12:21 AM
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WCastle WCastle is offline
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Thumbs up Stirling Cycle

This kind of reminds me of some Stirling cycle engine designs people have come up with over the years.

One such design was being manufactured in Ann Arbor Michigan and the unit resembled a dishwasher for under cupboard installation.

From what I can recall the units were sold in the UK and were sold as a whole energy solution for efficiency flats (studio apts. in the U.S.) creating heat, hot water and electricity from the heat of the burning of natural gas.

Other units I recall are installed in large factory's that utilize the waste heat from exhaust of the natural gas heaters, furnaces, ovens etc... they would generate up to 25KW of usable 60 Hz AC.

Your comment on air caught my attention as I have posted about wind powered air compressor that stores air in recycled propane pigs. (1000 gal L.P. tanks) to drive the high power need devices such as water wells, fans, refrigeration etc...

I don't remember where it is on this renewable energy forum but you can see more if you search for it.

please keep us informed of your progress.
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Old 03-05-2010, 12:39 AM
Matthew Jones Matthew Jones is offline
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This guy uses them in his hotel.
HOME - CHENA HOT SPRINGS RESORT

It is essentially a large heat pump. They use the permafrost to contract the R 34 gas and then they run hot springs water over coils to expand the gas. At the point of pressure differential they use the expanding to drive closed turbine,which is connected to a generator.

Anybody can build one if you have pipe fitting skills and AC tools. The easiest is to dig a trench 5-6 foot deep and run copper line under the ground. I don't know how much you would have reference for the amount of gas you need.
Then then you heat it with solar hot water panels, except they would have the gas in them. That will expand the gas.

At the point which the gas comes out of the panels you can run the gas through a valve, I forget the name, and expand it. It will have enough pressure to turn something. You would have to either make a micro turbine that could contain the gas or use a Turbo unit with a shaft or something. It would have to be seal up real good. Then hook an alternator over the shaft.

You could go to the library and read about the gas equations you would need to figure out how much gas and cooling exchange and all that you would need.

Or if you can find a real good AC man he probably could give a reference or the figures off the top of his head.
Don't use FREON, it toxic. USE R 34, or a product that is similiar.

Matt

Last edited by Matthew Jones : 03-05-2010 at 12:41 AM.
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Old 03-05-2010, 11:11 AM
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1NRG24Seven 1NRG24Seven is offline
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I do believe Lee's device worked.

Refrigerants boil at around 40deg.F below zero like water does at 212deg.F above zero. The liquid expands as it becomes a gas under pressure just like a steam engine would using water but at a much lower temperature, So any temperature above 40deg.F below zero and the refrigerent wants to be a gas under pressure. The trick is to have a very large surface area for your heat absorbers from atmospheric conditions to absorb enough heat into enough liquid to keep your turbine supplied with the amount of continuous pressure needed to drive your rated generator at as low of a temperature as possible, that way higher temps will obviously still drive your machine.

I was starting to collect old heat pump units for scrap as many of the components are still good, especially the condensors (looks like a radiator in a car with little fins) these condensors could be daisy chained together in mass of Im thinking 20 or more to be your heat obsorbers from the air. They could be stacked one on top of another in a colomb configuration or tower with an apropriate frame enginered for wind and bolted to a concrete slab for strength and stabilty. By simply soldering the inlet from one condensor to the outlet from another leaving the bottom unit and top unit with one open inlet or outlet you would have a freon circuit ready to hook upto a turbine inlet and outlet for a close loop. There is more componenets then this obviosly but for this illustration, would be a basic concept. I believe the Tesla Turbine would be my choice as it also acts to condence the gas back to a liquid. If one wanted to eliminate the compressor between the collection grid made from condensors and the turbine you could build a liquid holding tank and place the tower in it and heat the tank with outside fire with waste oils. 200 deg.F water on this example would produce pressures in the range of 350 psi according to a refridgeration friend of mine. Most condensors can handle these upper limit pressures which make it exciting possibility for a closed loop turbine generation.
Heat is always all around us and can be harnessed today to make electricity, just need a little enginuity to do it, the technology is already a reality.

Good Day!!!....24
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Old 03-05-2010, 01:29 PM
Slovenia Slovenia is offline
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Lee's Device

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1NRG24Seven View Post
I do believe Lee's device worked.

Refrigerants boil at around 40deg.F below zero like water does at 212deg.F above zero. The liquid expands as it becomes a gas under pressure just like a steam engine would using water but at a much lower temperature, So any temperature above 40deg.F below zero and the refrigerent wants to be a gas under pressure. The trick is to have a very large surface area for your heat absorbers from atmospheric conditions to absorb enough heat into enough liquid to keep your turbine supplied with the amount of continuous pressure needed to drive your rated generator at as low of a temperature as possible, that way higher temps will obviously still drive your machine.

I was starting to collect old heat pump units for scrap as many of the components are still good, especially the condensors (looks like a radiator in a car with little fins) these condensors could be daisy chained together in mass of Im thinking 20 or more to be your heat obsorbers from the air. They could be stacked one on top of another in a colomb configuration or tower with an apropriate frame enginered for wind and bolted to a concrete slab for strength and stabilty. By simply soldering the inlet from one condensor to the outlet from another leaving the bottom unit and top unit with one open inlet or outlet you would have a freon circuit ready to hook upto a turbine inlet and outlet for a close loop. There is more componenets then this obviosly but for this illustration, would be a basic concept. I believe the Tesla Turbine would be my choice as it also acts to condence the gas back to a liquid. If one wanted to eliminate the compressor between the collection grid made from condensors and the turbine you could build a liquid holding tank and place the tower in it and heat the tank with outside fire with waste oils. 200 deg.F water on this example would produce pressures in the range of 350 psi according to a refridgeration friend of mine. Most condensors can handle these upper limit pressures which make it exciting possibility for a closed loop turbine generation.
Heat is always all around us and can be harnessed today to make electricity, just need a little enginuity to do it, the technology is already a reality.

Good Day!!!....24

I also believed that Lee's device worked. It was always my feeling that he was discredited only for the purpose of suppressing his technology.

If someone knows what he was doing with his technology, please share it on this thread. Thanks in advance.
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Old 03-05-2010, 01:40 PM
Slovenia Slovenia is offline
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Link

Link To Dennis Lee Info.

Directoryennis Lee - PESWiki
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Old 03-05-2010, 06:22 PM
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Exclamation Dennis Lee scam

Seems like just about everyone at one time or another had some connection
to my town. Dennis Lee got his start here when he was out of the military
living out of his car. He started as a salesman for a company that was making
the flat panel heat pumps. There have been different variations but the ones
I'm talking about were about 4 ft x 8 ft and really thin. They made steam
when it was below freezing.

There is a hotel outside the town here that still has one of the setups visible,
but I doubt it works anymore. There is also someone I know that has a
solar/wind company here and he has a trailer that was used as demos from
those days.

Another friend of mine has a nutrition company here, electrolytes actually,
he died several years back but there was someone that worked for his sister
for a while and he used to work for that same company that Lee did.

Lee always said that he invented that heat pump, etc... but in reality,
he started as a salesman and eventually developed it into a full
distribution program. The whole closed loop concept may have came later,
I can't recall, but the heat pumps worked, they were installed on homes
and businesses and the home owners were to pay for the system out of
the savings for heat and hot water.

Five or six years ago, when he was through this town promoting "his"
technology looking for investors for dealerships (scam), one of his partners
kept calling me to get together with me because they knew I had my hands
on a few things. I just ignored them because they are scammers. They are
in trouble with quite a few attorney generals around the states. DO YOUR
RESEARCH. They are barred from doing their dog and pony show in quite
a few places because it is a scam they are running to get investment
money.

I know a handful of people that invested and got every flipping penny
ripped off.

He shows the demos of the sunburst generator and other motors. He didn't
invent or design any of that stuff. He purchased and got a lot from the
auction from the Tesla Society in Colorado when it went bankrupt. One of
those generators he shows was actually built by Normal Wootan.

Anyway, RUN!

---------------

Attorney General Sues New Jersey Man Over Sales Presentation

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
August 24, 2001
back

Attorney General Sues New Jersey Man Over Sales Presentation

SPOKANE - Aug. 24, 2001 - The Washington state Attorney General's office went to court today to prevent a New Jersey man from seeking investors in phony devices that he claims provide free or low-cost power.


In papers filed in Spokane County Superior Court, state attorneys are seeking a court order that bars Dennis Lee and his company, United Community Services of America, from soliciting money, monetary investment or financial commitments from consumers at a sales presentation scheduled for Aug. 28 at a Spokane hotel.


Lee and his company "have not shown that the relevant technology exists or ever will exist" to fulfill the promise of free electricity generation, state attorneys say in the complaint.


According to the complaint, Lee's company has posted Internet advertisements for "a free show (to) witness a dozen things the 'experts' say are 'impossible.'"


"Dennis Less and his companies have a demonstrated history of trying to defraud consumers," said Attorney General Christine Gregoire. "During the current energy crisis, some consumers may be vulnerable to his incredible promises and may fall victim to his scam. We want to make sure that doesn't happen."


State attorneys say Lee will pitch a so-called "Sundance Generator," which he claims generates electricity and sends it back to local utilities. As a result, he claims consumers' electric meters move backwards.


State attorneys say Lee encourages people to sign an agreement to bid on and purchase one of a limited number of United Community Services of America dealerships, which Lee claims to be valued at between $30,000 and $100,000. To be eligible to bid, consumers must make a "good faith deposit" of 10 percent of what they are willing to pay.


In 1985, Lee marketed a "solar utility network" through a company called C.O.N.S.E.R.V.E. State attorneys claim he falsely promised that consumers could cut their electric bills by 70 percent to 80 percent by purchasing a device connecting them to a nationwide grid of other users.


In that case, the Attorney General's office obtained a court judgment that found that he was guilty of false advertising.


He returned to Washington again in 1999 and at presentations in Yakima and Tacoma he sold interests in "perpetual motion machines" that he claimed could generate electricity.


The state Department of Financial Institutions (DFI) filed a Cease and Desist order against Lee on the grounds that he was offering securities without being registered as a securities dealer or broker in Washington.
According to investigators at the Tacoma presentation, Lee tore the DFI order up in front of the crowd.


Attorneys will return to court on Monday to seek a Temporary Restraining Order against Lee at which time a hearing on a motion for a permanent injunction will be scheduled.


-------------------

Attorney General Says Salesman’s Claims Violate Court Order

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
February 14, 2006
back

Attorney General Says Salesman’s Claims Violate Court Order
SEATTLE – The Washington State Attorney General’s Office filed a court petition to prevent a New Jersey-based traveling salesman from promoting products – including a machine he claims can make a car engine run on pickle juice or cola.


The petition filed Feb. 10 in Spokane Superior Court accuses Dennis Lee of violating a 2002 court order when he made a presentation last week at the Seattle Public Library.


“Dennis Lee has repeatedly tried to defraud Washington consumers by promoting products that, in order to perform as he claims, would have to defy the laws of physics,” Attorney General Rob McKenna said. “He’s snubbed government regulators during his road shows and blatantly disregarded a court order that forbids him from selling items or business opportunities in Washington.”


During the Seattle presentation, Lee allegedly described products marketed by his company called Better World Alternatives. They include a detergent-free, magnetic laundry system; a type of paint that can substitute for home insulation; a drinkable insecticide; and a noiseless jackhammer.


The Attorney General’s Office served papers to Lee on Feb. 10 in Portland, Ore., where he was scheduled to make another sales presentation.
The Attorney General’s Office is asking for a $25,000 enhanced civil penalty and $2,000 for each violation of the state Consumer Protection Act.
The state is also asking that Lee be required to pay nearly $65,000 in penalties, costs and attorneys’ fees initially imposed in 2002. In that case, the Attorney General’s Office accused Lee, doing business as United Community Services of America, of violating laws while seeking investors for a “Sundance Generator” that he claimed could generate free or low-cost electricity.


Attorneys general in multiple states have gone to court to keep Lee from selling his products. Following is a summary of actions against him in Washington state:


October 1985: the Washington State Attorney General’s Office accused Lee, doing business as C.ON.S.E.R.V.E., of violating state and federal laws while promoting a “Solar Utility Network.” Lee agreed to a stipulated judgment that included a $25,000 suspended penalty plus $7,000 in costs and attorneys’ fees.


October 1999: The Department of Financial Institutions ordered Lee, Better World Technologies, United Community Services of America and other defendants to stop selling unregistered securities in Washington. The defendants were accused of seeking investors for a “perpetual motion machine” they claimed could generate free electricity.


November 2002: The Attorney General’s Office accused Lee, doing business as United Community Services of America, of violating laws while seeking investors for a “Sundance Generator” that he claimed could generate free or low-cost electricity. Lee was ordered to pay $6,000 in civil penalties and nearly $59,000 in costs and attorneys’ fees. He was also ordered to offer refunds to any investors. The order prohibits him from selling products, services or business opportunities to Washington residents until he has satisfied the judgment. The order also forbids him from making unsubstantiated scientific claims about the performance of products.


November 2004: After Lee failed to pay the 2002 fines, the state agreed to payment plan and a reduced fee of $25,000. He has made timely $500 monthly payments totaling $7,500.


February 2006: The state alleges that Lee violated the 2002 order when he gave a presentation Feb. 7 at the Seattle Public Library to an audience of about 40-50. Lee presented products and business opportunities purportedly associated with Better World Alternatives and Better World Technologies. The state is now asking that Lee be ordered to pay the entire amount imposed in 2002, instead of the reduced fine, as well as new penalties.


- 30-
Media Contacts: Kristin Alexander, Public Information Officer, (206) 464-6432, kalexander@atg.wa.gov
Jack Zurlini, Assistant Attorney General, (509) 458-3538


------------------------------


p.s.



At one of these circus act shows Dennis put on, my friend that used to

work at the same company as Lee, he showed up in person to one of these
shows. He stood up and asked Lee, "Remember me?"


Lee almost immediately needed a diaper as his scam was falling down
all around him.
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Old 03-05-2010, 07:03 PM
Slovenia Slovenia is offline
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Thanks Aaron

Aaron,

Thanks, I never knew anyone who had any direct connection to Lee before.

Best Regards,
Slovenia
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Old 03-05-2010, 07:31 PM
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indirect

I'll say Indirect! lol

I have some things I can scan in later if I come across them - might answer
some of your questions.
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Old 03-05-2010, 08:40 PM
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ammonia refrigerator

Otto Mohr made an ammonia closed loop refrigerator way back:
Refrigerator Uses Solar Energy

Modern day type of concept:
Solar powered ice maker - Hack a Day

Ammonia is probably easier and safer than freon.
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Old 03-05-2010, 10:10 PM
Slovenia Slovenia is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
Otto Mohr made an ammonia closed loop refrigerator way back:
Refrigerator Uses Solar Energy

Modern day type of concept:
Solar powered ice maker - Hack a Day

Ammonia is probably easier and safer than freon.
Thanks Aaron.
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Old 03-07-2010, 09:33 PM
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Karl_Palsness Karl_Palsness is offline
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I spent several years building that type of system to spin up a turbine from the refrigerant gas flow between two heat sources. The system works great I was moving about 1 M BTU/ hr and spinning a micro turbine that could produced 150 KW on ideal days. There are several companies out there that are doing this. This is not new if you Google OTEC that is one of may ways to do this. There are many geothermal plants that use a closed looped system also. I have seen several Solar systems installed and my favorite is the Israeli salt pond systems. The biggest problem is the heat exchangers not the turbine...I spent a ton of money on that! The turbine is the easy part as it turned out. You can buy them off the shelf and use an blower in reverse and use the blower motor as an induction generator. This is a great system but you better have a good source for the heat exchangers and you should use bigger ones not smaller ones as you will limit the operating temp.

Karl
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Old 03-07-2010, 09:40 PM
Slovenia Slovenia is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karl_Palsness View Post
I spent several years building that type of system to spin up a turbine from the refrigerant gas flow between two heat sources. The system works great I was moving about 1 M BTU/ hr and spinning a micro turbine that could produced 150 KW on ideal days. There are several companies out there that are doing this. This is not new if you Google OTEC that is one of may ways to do this. There are many geothermal plants that use a closed looped system also. I have seen several Solar systems installed and my favorite is the Israeli salt pond systems. The biggest problem is the heat exchangers not the turbine...I spent a ton of money on that! The turbine is the easy part as it turned out. You can buy them off the shelf and use an blower in reverse and use the blower motor as an induction generator. This is a great system but you better have a good source for the heat exchangers and you should use bigger ones not smaller ones as you will limit the operating temp.

Karl
Hi Karl,

Thanks for sharing the information.

Best Regards,
Slovenia
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Old 09-11-2010, 10:24 PM
kapierenundkopieren kapierenundkopieren is offline
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Hi guys! Hope you are still around. Im a new member here, but familiar with this forum for about two years now.
This kind of systems are interesting and the principles involved are simple, not to mention that COP more than one can be achieved. I wonder why i don't see more info on the net about this.

@Karl_Palsness
It would be good to know more about your system, details and so on.

I was thinking about upgrading a solar water heating system, so that it would be more efficient and maybe getting some electricity out of it too.

I'll just drop by two related videos:
YouTube - Dennis Lee Heat Pump.flv
YouTube - Window air conditioner used to heat water and save energy. DIY HYBRID water heater!

I was hoping to get some info from others that has built such systems.

Dann
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Old 09-12-2010, 03:59 AM
Mark Mark is offline
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It's been a couple of years but I used to work on Automotive AC systems. The high side pressure runs around 350psi and I've seen some system that were overcharged go as high as 500psi. The problem that I see is that you will need some kind of compressor which, will take power to run. I think it takes around 5 horse power or more to drive an automotive compressor. I need to go back and do a little reading but I DON'T believe this could be a self runner.

@ Mathew the name your thinking of is called and expansion valve (used in Chrysler products) or an oriface tube (used in GM and Fords).

Freon at ambient temperature under pressure is a liquid. When the liquid is released to ambient pressure it turns to a gas. Just like propane. By the way I DO NOT RECOMMEND using propane. Propane works very good in AC systems but is highly explosive. When the old R12 Freon got as high as $50.00 per pound back in the 1990's some repair shops were using propane with explosive results if there was a leak in the system and you had a bad spark plug wire.

I still have a 30lb tank of R134a out in the garage that could be put to use if after doing a little research I find I am mistaken.
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Old 09-12-2010, 01:16 PM
kapierenundkopieren kapierenundkopieren is offline
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Hi Mark! Well i'm not an AC expert, but according to the second video above the system runs OU. It's a 5300 BTU/h AC that puts out 7500 BTU/h... so it's a COP of about 1.4 ...but it's also true that the guy doesen't have a watt meter on the thing, so we can't be sure and someone should do a test like this.

If anyone has a clue about how is a rating of an AC related to power consumption please share it here.

I think that by exposing the evaporator to the sun there should be a power gain, but how much more would the compressor consume?

Dann

Last edited by kapierenundkopieren : 09-12-2010 at 01:21 PM.
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Old 10-06-2013, 08:37 PM
Khwartz Khwartz is offline
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For those who like me coming on this old thread after a google search, here the answers:

The compressor takes approximately a quarter of the heat power harvested by the evaporator.

So it is quite normal that the "COP" will be "overunity", but what I see near everywhere because very few are AC specialists, even among scientists, between this overunity COP and an supposed PHYSICAL EFFICIENCY:

- HEAT PUMPS ARE NOT physical efficiency overunities! Far to be! lol there are many wastes in between and classic "laws" of energy conservation applies.

Saying this, and knowing a COP is:

- THE RATIO BETWEEN THE USABLE POWER AND THE COSTLY POWER
,

one may go on for better and SELFRUNNING SYSTEMS.

Indeed: take a heat pump and power it with a solar panel and it selfruns!...

By the way: solar panels, wind turbines, are example of INFINITE COP

Cheers, Khwartz.
Electrician and AC engineering trained
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Old 10-07-2013, 01:21 AM
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perhaps this video will be on subject
Videos: Energy from the Vacuum series - PESWiki


Last edited by Duncan : 10-07-2013 at 01:36 AM.
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Old 10-07-2013, 06:17 AM
john_g john_g is offline
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Hi All

I recall a few years ago, a post around Christmas time, by a person who was a student from MIT? He showed a closed loop heat pump arrangement, I think he was using butane gas - I haven't managed to find the post but he had at least one video posted up.

Regards

John
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Old 10-07-2013, 07:23 AM
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This copy and paste... taken from this web page
History Of 'New Energy' Invention Suppression Cases

Dennis Lee: Freon Engines

Dennis Lee during the mid-1980's invented a freon-based low-temperature phase-change engine similar to Bob Stewart's heat engine. The father of the Boeing 747 and other highly qualified people helped Dennis perfect his engine. A small plant was established in Seattle to produce and sell a commercial home-scale electrical generator. A Seattle area power company (the same one which became infamous for its WHOOPS nuclear plants) campaigned to shut down the plant. Even a girl employee was murdered.

Dennis was forced to move his company to Southern California to start over. He was subsequently imprisoned on a false charge for two years. His book "The Alternative" documents the falsity of the charge.

Dennis spoke nonstop for three hours during the International Tesla Society's symposium July 1996(?). However, he was refused an opportunity to speak at the symposium itself. Lee made an impassioned presentation of about eight engines for different purposes which were displayed on the stage. He also formally announced that his company which he had to hibernate while in jail and since then is now back in business.

An interesting claim he made was that freon has been scientifically determined to be not destructive of the earth's atmospheric ozone layer. He said that the secret group which had been suppressing clean energy inventions is so afraid of his inventions that they had cleverly arranged a ban on freon refrigerant in air conditioners, etc., in order to stop him.

By the way, his wife was so supportive during his ordeal it should be considered an honor to meet her some day.

I, Gary Vesperman, has also heard that Dennis Lee's claims could stand additional verification by an independent laboratory. Mr. Lee is frequently accused of making misleading if not false claims concerning the energy inventions that he demonstrates and displays at his road shows. A few years ago I attended one of his road shows here in Las Vegas. I thought Lee's claim about Joe Newman's rotating electrical generator was misleading. Lee had multiplied the machine's output peak voltage and peak current to arrive at the output power instead of multiplying the machine's true average voltage and true average current.
PS .. Dennis can be seen demonstrating and explaining the system from 1H10min
onwards on this video
Free and Zero Point Energy from Tesla to Dennis Lee - YouTube knowing your skills .. tracking & tracing should be enough names ect here

Last edited by Duncan : 10-07-2013 at 09:13 AM.
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Old 10-07-2013, 08:25 AM
tachyon tachyon is offline
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Einstein refrigerator - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 10-07-2013, 09:24 AM
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extract from the Australian "free energy" mag Nexus for your inspection
http://www.newciv.org/whole/energycoverup.txt
land of the what? as for Dr Ficher's heat engine Slovenia which Dennis tells us is a vital part of the equasion here is the start of a lead into that theory
FISCHER ENERGY, INC
& on the down side...
Dennis Lee's free electricity claims


Last edited by Duncan : 10-07-2013 at 09:38 AM.
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Old 10-07-2013, 10:04 AM
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Duncan Duncan is offline
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further to

So .. Basically any researcher is going to be dis-credited, dragged through the courts. Certainly proclaimed a scam merchant .. that’s just standard steps one two and three. If nothing else it certainly puts the brakes on development … and cuts any finance. It even worked with Rife!
And deeply religious men like Mayer for instance .

Opie & Anthony: Stan Meyer's Water Car - YouTube

You will see that Dennis formed a partnership with Paul Pantone, He's mouldering in an asylum .. no court case needed for that, much more convenient.

Thunderbolts Forum • View topic - Inventor Paul Pantone Rotting in Mental Ward!

So it goes … on and on does it really matter who invents what whilst we all .. let the real lunatics drive our bus?
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Old 10-25-2013, 06:09 AM
DaS Energy DaS Energy is offline
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Closed loop generator

1812 saw the Royal navy trial closed loop Ammonia. Air-Sea. However coal crashed to a penny a pound seeing off the conversion. British trams of the same period ran a closed loop Ammonia engine.

CO2/R744 provides most force to heat. Commercial in closed loop configuration where the gas is brought to high pressure in a boiler +100*C 10,000 bar pressure and brought back into the boiler at 32*C using a vacuum/compressor.

Lowest heat side is -38*C leaving the return temperature -39^C.

Comparative to Steam. Steam at +600*C is 200 bar pressure used to drive 350 megawatt turbines. Steam cease any further at +100*C.

The attached can be home built or machine shopped.

Basic fridge physics used in mechanical energy conversion.
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