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Renewable Energy Discussion on various alternative energy, renewable energy, & free energy technologies. Also any discussion about the environment, global warming, and other related topics are welcome here.

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Old 02-26-2010, 07:57 AM
john_g john_g is online now
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Home Made Deep Cycle Batteries

It strikes me that to successfully use John Bediniís 10 pole energizer, or even off grid solar you would need 1 or 2 large deep cycle battery banks, which buying off-the-shelf would be very expensive. The idea for this thread is to share and discuss homemade deep cycle batteries.
Has anyone made any batteries, what did you use and what were the results like?
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Old 02-26-2010, 08:28 AM
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thedude thedude is offline
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might be way out in left field

Its a good question John_g. I've wondered at this as well. Sadly, I have nothing really substantial to contribute to the topic.

I have had some thoughts while working with an earth battery i've placed into the ground beneath my mobile home. (6 - 1' x1/2" thick copper pipe rods for positive and 6 - 1'x1' sheets of galvanized metal placed a distance from one another) Is there a way to make a literal earth battery that uses anode and cathode with earth as the electrolite (possibly ph adjusted) in a contained space? Could it be done without causing environmental harm or to produce usable current?

So i really do nothing but add to your questions and offer some food for thought. Hope someone with more experience on the matter chimes in.
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Old 02-26-2010, 11:26 AM
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theremart theremart is offline
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The expense..

Quote:
Originally Posted by john_g View Post
It strikes me that to successfully use John Bediniís 10 pole energizer, or even off grid solar you would need 1 or 2 large deep cycle battery banks, which buying off-the-shelf would be very expensive. The idea for this thread is to share and discuss homemade deep cycle batteries.
Has anyone made any batteries, what did you use and what were the results like?
The best method I have found is to goto those who are getting rid of their golf cart batteries ( they swap them out every so often because of the age factor ) and purchase good used golf cart batteries that are starting to decline. ( due to natural sulfation process ) they still hold amps and you can check to verify that they are good which saves you many an hour charge / discharging batteries that may be no good to begin with. I have gotten these for the price of the lead about 20 -$30 a shot. These being 125 amp hour batteries I consider that to be a great deal. I don't believe I could make my own for that kind of a deal.

I once considered fork lift batteries, but the extreme weight, and the thoughts of what if a cell goes bad has stopped me from doing that. It is much easier to build up a bank of batteries and replace a single battery if it goes bad than if you have a cell go bad on the fork lift battery.

I have seen sites where people have made their own batteries, but with so many used batteries available, I don't see it viable, I make friends with a golf cart dealer. that way when one of these batteries go bad you simply say hey can you swap me this bad one for one of the other ones you have. I have found 3 dealers that will do that with me, and it works awesome.

I have purchased more alum, and I intend to experiment more with conversions. So far this has been the best way for me to go.
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Old 02-26-2010, 02:19 PM
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Golf Cart Batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by theremart View Post
The best method I have found is to go to those who are getting rid of their golf cart batteries ( they swap them out every so often because of the age factor ) and purchase good used golf cart batteries that are starting to decline.
I second that, They're the best used batteries. They can be rejuvenated with help of J.B energizers. I believe that most of them are 6V. Unfortunately, where I live, you can't get them despite several golf courses around. They have to return them to the supplier in order to get the new ones.


Vtech
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Old 02-26-2010, 05:10 PM
Stealth Stealth is offline
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The easiest thing to do, if you can't buy or find a battery, is to build a Leyden jar. They are simple to build, and you can build any size needed. They should be able to handle any amount of current and will store it just as a battery or capacitor. They are now in the process of building some very large capacitors that will make batteries obsolete. Good Luck.. Stealth
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Old 02-26-2010, 09:07 PM
Guruji Guruji is offline
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Batteries

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Originally Posted by Stealth View Post
The easiest thing to do, if you can't buy or find a battery, is to build a Leyden jar. They are simple to build, and you can build any size needed. They should be able to handle any amount of current and will store it just as a battery or capacitor. They are now in the process of building some very large capacitors that will make batteries obsolete. Good Luck.. Stealth
Hi Stealth interesting what you said. Where I can find info on these Leyden jar Batts?
Thanks
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Old 02-26-2010, 11:21 PM
Stealth Stealth is offline
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Leyden Jars

Wikipedia has a good illustration on Leyden jars. They have been around for thousands of years. Although they are closer to being a capacitor than a storage battery. Both do basically the same thing, store electricity. Hope this helps. Good Luck.. Stealth
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Old 02-27-2010, 01:44 AM
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I thought a Leyden jar was essentially like a big capacitor that can store high voltage but is not a source of continuous heavy current like you might need for powering an inverter and running household devices. I could be wrong but I think with a Leyden jar you are going to have very short term storage of voltage.

I can't currently afford a Bedini charger like the ones he sells but I'm trying to get some ideas of the best way to build something similar so I can salvage car, marine or golf cart batteries. As far as I know used batteries are probably going to be cheaper than building your own.
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Old 02-27-2010, 06:03 AM
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John Bedini's comments about making batteries:

Quote:
Battery charging, chemical reaction.
When charging a source such as pure DC, or a battery charger is
charging the battery, the SO4 comes off both plates and joins with
the H in the electrolyte to form H2SO4. The H2O breaks up and the O
goes to the positive plate, where it joins with the Pb to form lead
peroxide (PbO2). This is very important.
Battery discharging,
The chemical action in a battery while discharging joins with the Pb
to form lead sulfate (PbSO)on both plates. The O, on the positive
plates join with the Hydrogen (H) in the electrolyte to form (H2O) As
the battery discharges, the percentage of water in the electrolyte
contains high percentage of H2O.
The electrolyte is a mixture of approximately 64 percent water (H2O)
and 36 percent sulfuric acid (H2SO4).
Do the experiment and watch what happens.
Take two pieces of lead, place them in a jar of some type, apply a
small current, the positive plate will build lead peroxide (PbO2)
without this you will not have a battery, The negative plate will be
sponge lead. This only takes 10 minutes to see what is going on.
The crude way to make acid,
If you wanted to make your own H2SO4 get sulfur and boil in a test
tube, then run the gas through distilled water in another bottle, the
final product is H2SO4.
I think you will find Dave's cell working this way.
John
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Old 02-27-2010, 10:26 AM
Matthew Jones Matthew Jones is offline
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If you gonna build a Battery you have to not only factor in the cost for material you have to factor in the amount of power its going to take to format it.
Best bet is get solar or wind setup on a small scale before get started. You can easily pay for it while formatting the batteries.

The best advantage to building your own, is the size you can achieve. If you got the time and resources you can build a battery that can power your home or shop or weeks.
The amount of lead and acid needed, is to large to ship, but by constructing it yourself the available power is the limit. They also don't need be pasted if you think your going to keep them stationary after construction.
They can also be built using radiant generators (Monopoles and the like). And they will far out perform what is expected of a factory battery

I have never built a large scale one, but I am collecting material to get them started. The only thing we don't have is Acid at the moment. We are also looking into any rules set forth by the EPA, as we don't want to find ourselves in a situation where we are going to get fined.

But all in all you have to weigh your needs. Prebuilt batteries are very competitive with self construction as far cost goes. Its not the material
that costs, it the energy used to make them.

Thats what you gotta weight

Matt

Last edited by Matthew Jones : 02-27-2010 at 10:29 AM.
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Old 02-27-2010, 05:17 PM
john_g john_g is online now
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Hi All
Thanks for the various inputs. Found this PDF on rebuilding batteries from 1922:

http://www.zetatalk.com/energy/Rebui...1922-Witte.pdf

Also see there is an e book for sale on making batteries. It looks pretty comprehensive - be good to know if anyone has read it?
Battery Builder's Guide by Phillip Hurley
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Old 02-27-2010, 11:55 PM
Matthew Jones Matthew Jones is offline
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The battery builder book is pretty good. I bought it read this afternoon.

He gives alot of good detail.

Thanks John

Matt
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Old 02-28-2010, 06:41 AM
john_g john_g is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Jones View Post
The battery builder book is pretty good. I bought it read this afternoon.

He gives alot of good detail.

Thanks John

Matt
Matt

Thanks for that I will buy a copy.

Regards

John
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Old 03-01-2010, 05:06 PM
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PulseFuelNerd PulseFuelNerd is offline
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I have given this much contemplation, but not to much research of facts.

It appears that home made batteries are best in stationary applications. I hear that serious amp hour cells are glass cylinders with horizontal plates separated by glass matte. They are 2v per cell.

Im wonder what makes a battery "Deep Cycle"?
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Old 03-01-2010, 05:18 PM
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JB on Battery building

I found these post's from John Bedini about battery building.
The way I see JB's post's. It contains all the information needed. That was all I could find about this subject.

Thu Feb 28, 2008 11:09 am Re:
Building A Lead Acid Battery
To All,
A little Preview, of what is wrong with a storage battery, It's the material
they add to make the plates strong. when making storage batteries you would want the power you put into that battery in amp hours out. Another words if you put 1 amp hour in you want 1 amp hour out, in 1955 batteries did this as I have book's that say that. so this battery is going to be untreated lead, so yes it's very soft. Most batteries have a time limit in
years only because of the space under the plates and cheap insulators. The battery I'm making will not be very big but it will do the job. I will take this battery right to a dead condition and then just charge right back up, then we will show all the chargers working with this battery. This information could save your life in the end.
John

Sun Mar 2, 2008 9:58 am
Re: New file uploaded to Bedini_SG
Battery charging, chemical reaction.
When charging a source such as pure DC, or a battery charger is
charging the battery, the SO4 comes off both plates and joins with
the H in the electrolyte to form H2SO4. The H2O breaks up and the O
goes to the positive plate, where it joins with the Pb to form lead
peroxide (PbO2). This is very important.
Battery discharging,
The chemical action in a battery while discharging joins with the Pb
to form lead sulfate (PbSO)on both plates. The O, on the positive
plates join with the Hydrogen (H) in the electrolyte to form (H2O) As
the battery discharges, the percentage of water in the electrolyte
contains high percentage of H2O.
The electrolyte is a mixture of approximately 64 percent water (H2O)
and 36 percent sulfuric acid (H2SO4).
Do the experiment and watch what happens.
Take two pieces of lead, place them in a jar of some type, apply a
small current, the positive plate will build lead peroxide (PbO2)
without this you will not have a battery, The negative plate will be
sponge lead. This only takes 10 minutes to see what is going on.
The crude way to make acid,
If you wanted to make your own H2SO4 get sulfur and boil in a test
tube, then run the gas through distilled water in another bottle, the
final product is H2SO4.
I think you will find Dave's cell working this way.
John
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Old 03-01-2010, 05:57 PM
cody cody is offline
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Watch this if you havnt seen it yet, its John Bedini making batteries.
BatteryForming_2008_04_25_16_16_47.wmv
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Old 03-01-2010, 07:50 PM
john_g john_g is online now
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Cody
Excellent video. It confirms that you just need pure lead plates and by charging you create/condition the +/-ve plates - very inspiring. Do you what he used to separate the coiled plates?
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Old 03-02-2010, 12:51 PM
Matthew Jones Matthew Jones is offline
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@John G
He used some rubber and plastic to hold it apart. You do not need any of it though.
Use a plastic carriage or something on the bottom to keep the plates separate, maybe one towards the top, but thats it.
Make sure the lead is rough. Thats it.

I have built several of them jars since he put that movie out. They work great and are easy to build for experiment.

Matt
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Old 03-02-2010, 05:23 PM
john_g john_g is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Jones View Post
@John G
He used some rubber and plastic to hold it apart. You do not need any of it though.
Use a plastic carriage or something on the bottom to keep the plates separate, maybe one towards the top, but thats it.
Make sure the lead is rough. Thats it.

I have built several of them jars since he put that movie out. They work great and are easy to build for experiment.

Matt
Hi Matt
You say "make sure the lead is rough" - like say sandblasted?
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Old 03-02-2010, 06:09 PM
Matthew Jones Matthew Jones is offline
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Ya just scratch the metal lightly with a strong wire brush of something.

That allows the crystals to adhere. If you don't moving them around can knock off pieces.

Also don't let the lead go all the way to bottom of the jar. Keep it up an inch or so from the bottom.

Matt
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Old 03-02-2010, 06:18 PM
john_g john_g is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Jones View Post
Ya just scratch the metal lightly with a strong wire brush of something.

That allows the crystals to adhere. If you don't moving them around can knock off pieces.

Also don't let the lead go all the way to bottom of the jar. Keep it up an inch or so from the bottom.

Matt
Matt

Would you mind sharing what size of lead plates you used, i.e. the lead thickness, and length and depth of the plate? I though old wine bottles with the top halves cut off would make a cheap supply of containers if I wanted to build a bank of them.

Regards

John
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Old 03-02-2010, 06:39 PM
Matthew Jones Matthew Jones is offline
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I would just use canning jars. You get them all the time with spaghetti sauce in a jar. Or you can buy a case for 12 bucks at the hardware store.

I used 1/8 rolled lead. You get that at plumbing supply. Just it into 2 strips and put them in the jar. Keep them 1 inch from the bottom or better. Get premixed battery solution from the parts store, or you can concentrate and mix your own according to the instructions.

You can even take the lids from the canning jar, cut hole in them, Put some rubber(chemical tolerant) or plastic grommets, then slip the plate through the grommet, so you have terminals.

Just be careful if you use an open jar of some sort, make sure you do not arc you test leads or smoke, as you will be venting hydrogen. Not much but you never want to chance it. it can make a firecracker bang, and splash acid around.

Also if you just build one jar you must have a 2-3 volt power supply to charge it. 3-4 amps. You can also use a monopole, but it takes longer.

It not hard. You just gotta give it try, and don't over think it. USE RUBBER GLOVES. And don't breath fumes to much.

Matt
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Old 03-03-2010, 03:20 AM
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If you aren't married to the lead acid chemistry, nickel iron seems like a fairly benign alternative.

Google

YouTube - Edison Battery Construction Nickel Iron

Peace
PJ
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Old 03-03-2010, 10:19 AM
Matthew Jones Matthew Jones is offline
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Thats seems pretty descent.

This is the patent for it

Matt
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Old 03-03-2010, 05:50 PM
eternalightwithin eternalightwithin is offline
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Went to Noonco website

Is Walt Noon a member here?

Awesome website Mr. Noon!

Sincerely,

David Piel

P.S. Looking at Nickel-FE batts. I wonder if I could make them cheaper than BeUtilityFree?

Last edited by eternalightwithin : 03-03-2010 at 08:20 PM.
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Old 03-03-2010, 09:42 PM
thaelin thaelin is offline
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Deep Cycle?

The Nickel/Fe batts was kind of neat but did you catch the end where it said it would light an LED for how many minutes? Kind of sparse on the amps there.
Take the Pb's from JB and you have amps to burn. His setup with multi-plates would make for a good batt. As he said, you pay for strength in the plates with a regular battery with amps retained. Just keep them ventilated to the outside when charging up due to the gassing. Make the plate assembly removable so you can clean the bottom of the containers and you will have a long life cell.

thay
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Old 03-04-2010, 07:04 AM
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@eternalightwithin
Wikipedia reports there are no US producers of this type batteries. I bet if you had a truck load of them, someone would like to buy them from you.

Speaking of BeUtilityFree.com there is a download of their "source book"...on page 159 of that pdf there is a electrolyzer/fuel cell? that runs on the same chemistry.
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Old 01-09-2014, 07:08 PM
pugwash pugwash is offline
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video

I know this is a old thread but does anybody have the Battery forming video .2008_04_25_16_16_47.wmv
As in this thread, the link does not work now.
Thank you
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Old 01-10-2014, 08:20 AM
john_g john_g is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pugwash View Post
I know this is a old thread but does anybody have the Battery forming video .2008_04_25_16_16_47.wmv
As in this thread, the link does not work now.
Thank you
Hi Pugwash

I don't have a link to the video. However to form the plates, you just need to put 2 separated lead plates in battery acid, charge in one direction, discharge, then charge in the opposite direction and discharge. Keep repeating this swapping procedure, and the 'spongy' plates will form. In an old book, I have read that this procedure continued for a month. I suspect the pasting of plates came about to quicken the manufacturing process


Regards

John
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Old 01-10-2014, 07:27 PM
pugwash pugwash is offline
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when you say continue for a month. That could mean anything, how many charges back and forth, is there any specific procedures written about it. There must be somebody here that has made and using the home made battery's, if so are there any specifics on it all. I have plenty of lead and some battery acid and have seen where I can get more acid. Which is the hardest thing in Australia as for some stupid reason its a prohibited substance.( Like you cant get it out of any car battery). Thanks
pugwash
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