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#1
01-07-2010, 08:28 PM
 Armagdn03 Silver Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 919
Eccentric Transformer Theory -

The transformer process in current light generally refers to a passive electrical component which is designed to take energy at one potential and current state on the input, and output at a differing potential and current state based on well defined and accepted ratios. Generally the transformer is of inductive character defined by two electrically separate conductors wound about the same core. It is expected that the power consumable on the output will be equal and opposite to the power consumed from the input minus losses. This is a feature of design only, and holds true to most modern transformers. In eccentric transformer theory, we will examine various forms of transformer which are geometrically wound about individual centers. We will take note how , The bulk of the transformer process can be described by taking an examination of the laws of induction, but it will be shown also that other phenomenon describe the transformation process, but are hidden to us through conventional design. Both capacitive and inductive transformer coupling will be addressed and calculations presented for each.

Inductive Transformer action

The standard transformer According to Faraday's law (put in this convenient permutation)

Voltage Generated = (-N)(delta (BA))/delta t)

Where we have replaced the unit of inductance with its terms:
-N = number of turns
B = Magnetic field strength in Tesla
A = Area of turns

Assuming the primary and secondary are concentric (about the same center) Lenz law applies in the standard way, giving us an equal and opposite EMF equating to equal and opposite energy states on both primary and secondary minus losses. This essentially describes the bulk of the "transformation" process mechanism for this example. It may not be readily apparent, but the Inverse Squared law of electromagnetic radiation is also in effect, though it is hidden to us in conventional designs.
According to the inverse squared law, as we increase the diameter of the secondary (around the primary, concentrically) the magnitude of the EMF created by the primary will decrease accordingly. As we get one radius away from the primary, the magnitude will be 1/4 of the source. But we have also increased area by a factor of four (area of a circle increases by factor of 4 with a doubling of the radius). Therefore in the equation for Faraday's law, the factors of 1/4 and 4 cancel out for no net effect.
This clearly shows both in practice, and mathematical convenience, that when sharing a common center, Faraday's law creates an Equal and Opposite reaction to any change with respect to time in the current of the primary. However, if the primary and secondary do NOT share centers, a new area of study becomes of interest.
If the secondary is wound about a separate center, sitting adjacent to the primary, Lenz law does not behave in the familiar way. The secondary coil will feel a fraction of the field emitted by the primary according to the inverse square law of electromagnetics. For example:

Primary coil: 16 units Field strength
Secondary coil: 2r away from centre of primary
secondary coil: “Feels”: 4 units Field strength

Because of the inverse square law, and our geometric spacing, we can see that the secondary at distance 2r will see only ¼ of the emf as if it had been wound about the same centre as the primary. The secondary will now react per Lenz law to push back on the oscillations of the primary coil. This opposing oscillation must now travel back to the primary across free space, and according to the inverse squared law once again, its magnitude will decrease. If we decrease by a factor of 4 once more, we can see that the primary coil will feel a BEMF of only 1unit. To summarize:

Primary coil:
Secondary coil:
Feels 4 units of field from primary
Creates equal and opposite 4 units per Lenz Law (BEMF)
Primary coil:
Feels 1 unit of BEMF From secondary

So we have expended 16 units, to "create" 4, which pushes back for a total of 1. Hugely inefficient, unless you consider the primary to be a charge conserving resonant structure. In this situation, minus the average reduction due to Q loss, 16 units gets reduced by the BEMF for 1, to create 4 units. The rest of the charge within the primary is conserved and reused in succeeding cycles. Thus we find that the primary consumes 1 unit of energy (minus loss) to create 4 units of energy. Here the "equal and opposite" apparent in all areas of electromagnetics has not been circumvented in any way, simply the geometry has been changed to our advantage.

This same effect can also be calculated using only the capacitive coupling for transformer action.
Capacitors can be arranged in simple geometric ways to act as transformers much the same way inductors can. Such a transformer would appear as a sphere, with a sphere around it concentrically. Because the energy states of both “plates” of our capacitor must be equal, but, the surface area of the inner sphere is less than that of the outer sphere, it will have higher charge density than the outer sphere. The ratio of sizes of the inner sphere to the outer sphere can manipulate the charge density on each to give us transformer action in well known ratios. The mathematics are a direct derivation of
Gauss' law. Because both spheres are about the same center, you will find a situation identical to the transformer described in the previous section. When a change in potential on one sphere occurs, it is mirrored in the second sphere equal and opposite.

One may remove the concentricity aspect of this transformer, and place the spheres on eccentric centers. Here one sphere will be physically next to the other. A simple mental experiment will show that we are left with a similar situation to the transformer action described above. We will assume once again that the primary sphere emits a field of 16 units and both spheres have equal capacitance. The second capacitor sitting 2r away will feel only 4 units of potential with respect to ground, once again due to the inverse squared law of electromagnetics. The secondary capacitor is allowed to charge to this 4 unit potential. In practice the primary sphere will be attached to an inductor which allows for a resonant circuit. Each cycle the sphere discharges its energy back into the inductor and it is recycled. Because our secondary is now charged, and emitting its own field of 4 units, the primary cannot discharge 100% of its energy back into the inductor. The secondary per inverse squared mechanics will have the primary sitting in its field and the primary will feel 1 unit of field. Now where the primary would have discharged all 16 units back into the inductor for re use, it instead only returns 15 units because one unit is held stationary by the charge found on the secondary. Once again we find ourselves expending 1 unit to create 4 total minus loss.

It can be seen in both cases that by simply changing the geometric relations of primary and secondary, energy can be created. In similar fashion, and through creative design energy can also be destroyed.

It can be shown that as one gets further from the source the signal received will decrease as shown in the graph below. The number 1 on the X axis represents concentric arrangement. As the centers depart from one another, the field felt decreases accordingly.

It can also be surmised that what is felt by the secondary, is returned in Lenz like fassion to the primary, constituting a feedback to the source, and equating to work done. The ratio of power induced on the secondary to power returned to source in Lenz like reactions can be considered a multiplicaiton ratio. So for example with our previous calculations, as the secondary feels 4 units, and returns to the source 1unit of detraction, the multiplication ratio is 4.

It can be seen when graphing this in the chart below, that as one moves further and further from the source, the process becomes more and more efficient. At 3r it becomes a multiplication ratio of 9, at 4r, 16 and so on.

It must be realized though that while the process becomes more and more efficient, the average power felt by the secondary decreases. We can see that the graphs have inverse relations in their slopes, and so there will be one point at which they cross. This intersection in the graphs represents the best possible agreement between power felt by the secondary, and the calculated multiplication factor. Mathematically the two equations can be set to one another used to derive the graphs, and find a common solution.

Thanks for viewing

Andrew Manrique
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#2
01-07-2010, 08:49 PM
 Armagdn03 Silver Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 919
This is also the bulk of the process involved in the "room full of tuning forks" analogy, or the radio tower with infinite crystal radios. They will feedback to the source, this can be experimentally shown, however the process leaves one with excess energy.

YouTube - Evolution of the Eccentric Transformer

It was later discovered that one needs to isolate either the capacitive or magnetic elements in order to have the purest experiment.

I have heard at more than one time someone in a youtube video create a wireless power transmission device and ask Dr. Stiffler to comment on why it was supposedly doing the same thing as a SEC circuit. 99% of the time it is not doing the same thing. SEC technology is an ultra-wideband oscillator with a huge harmonic range. Most of the time what they are probably referring to is the effect described here, this is not to say that eccentric transformer action does not come into play in some SEC technology.

One of these videos also gives a possible explanation to the Kapanadze patent and videos.
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Last edited by Armagdn03; 01-07-2010 at 09:49 PM.
#3
01-08-2010, 12:56 AM
 Tecstatic Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 452
Hi Andrew,

Thank you very much for these posts

I'm glad I did the experiments with my SEC cubes. Your explanations fit nicely with my observations. I think you are right my SEC cubes are some kind of hybrid. I have seen both the wide band and the capacitive transformation using differently sized spheres.

I have had this in my head for some time, and I really feel some pieces has now been added to the puzzle.

Although I have not responded much to your helping hints previously, your advice has not been forgotten.

Please bear with me, I'm still a newbie in FE. It is now just over 2 years since I got awakened by a YT video about Stanley Meyer.

But your advice made me realize, that I needed some equipment to do some more experimentation, Thats why I started my running thread, as my need for experimenting equipment has lots in common with much other stuff in this field. I also did it to provide some help to h20power & friends, as EE's are not an excessive entity here, alt least not regarding providing practical help.

So I do an attempt to make some easy to use PWM controllers, where we have the possibility to add closed loop regulation, when we (hopefully) arrive at something useful and flexible for a broad range of experiments.

So please continue even though you get nearly no feedback. Now I only get feedback from bussi04, and sometimes I feel I could as well communicate directly.

But IMO the larger picture is about trying educating many, so they can spend more time experimenting instead of fighting some electronic control circuits necessary for the experiments.

Eric
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#4
01-08-2010, 01:43 AM
 Armagdn03 Silver Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 919
Quote:
Thank you Eric for your encouragement.

Right now, I believe its current embodiment is not all it could be. For example, placement of the top load changes the frequency of the resonant structure by about 10 %, which is pretty bad. This means that the rest of the resonant action in the capacitive end of the spectrum is happening within the coil and running a neon along the length of it will verify this. In order take it to the next level, one would need to have an inductor with spaced windings leaving as much of the capacitance as possible within the topload. This also will increase the Q of the circuit, as you are removing un wanted parasitic capacitance.

In order to get a good inductor one would need a large-ish diameter coil with spacing for the windings. If anybody has a lathe that could turn some PVC with a helical grove for windings, I would be really grateful to see if something like this could be made.

There are dissadvantages to taking the capacitive route, mainly that the capacitive end of the spectrum interacts heavily with biological systems, and hence biological systems being primarily water, act as a load to the transmitter. This means that you the inventor can detune the system, and dissipate some of its energy in you!

It would pay to try and accomplish the same transformer action via inductors, similar to what was displayed by MIT with their wireless transfer device several years ago.
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#5
01-08-2010, 02:01 AM
 Altair Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 107
I agree with tecstatic, do not let the lack of feedback discourage you.
When new advanced theories are presented, we sometimes do not get it immediately, but it remains in our minds anyway.
We might not find something to say at the moment but your work is not wasted, far from it. Sometimes I go back to read old threads that I didn't quite understand at the time, but later after having absorbed new knowledge from other places, my mind begins to make the links...

Porbably the majority of the readers on technical forums are silent, they're just learning... for the moment.

Your theory about the optimum distance between coils could be one of the keys to optimising Smith's and Hubbard setups.

Cheers
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#6
01-08-2010, 02:04 AM
 dragon Silver Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 964
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Armagdn03 Thank you Eric for your encouragement. In order to get a good inductor one would need a large-ish diameter coil with spacing for the windings. If anybody has a lathe that could turn some PVC with a helical grove for windings, I would be really grateful to see if something like this could be made. .
Armagdn03, what size diameter, length and threads per inch do you need ? I may be able to make this up for you.
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Last edited by dragon; 01-19-2012 at 03:44 AM.
#7
01-08-2010, 02:13 AM
 Armagdn03 Silver Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 919
Quote:
 Originally Posted by dragon Armagdn03, what size diameter, length and threads per inch do you need ? I may be able to make this up for you.
WOW! that would be fantastic, I would compensate you of course. The larger the diameter the better, I usually can only find around 4" pvc at the hardware store. Let me take some measurements and see what might work.

What are your limits in terms of size?
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#8
01-08-2010, 02:36 AM
 Tecstatic Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 452
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Armagdn03 Thank you Eric for your encouragement. Right now, I believe its current embodiment is not all it could be. For example, placement of the top load changes the frequency of the resonant structure by about 10 %, which is pretty bad. This means that the rest of the resonant action in the capacitive end of the spectrum is happening within the coil and running a neon along the length of it will verify this. In order take it to the next level, one would need to have an inductor with spaced windings leaving as much of the capacitance as possible within the topload. This also will increase the Q of the circuit, as you are removing un wanted parasitic capacitance. In order to get a good inductor one would need a large-ish diameter coil with spacing for the windings. If anybody has a lathe that could turn some PVC with a helical grove for windings, I would be really grateful to see if something like this could be made.
I have been thinking about how to replicate the coils used by DrStiffler.

In a lathe you make a cylinder to wind the coil on, and with centering holes both ends.
Then you go to the milling machine and make 4 axial "tracks" (i guess I need the right word here) the same size as the 4 plastic strips fixating the coil.

In addition you extend with other "tracks" so you can fit in a square rod with non-parallel sides. Using screws to tighten the rod, it can be used to hold tight the plastic strip for fixating the coil. The plastic strips are "buried" about 2/3 in the cylinder.

Having done that for all 4 strips, you go back to the lathe.

Here you use a cutting tool with a width a little less than the wire diameter for the coil.

Setting the lathe for making threads with the right advance per revolution, you can now make the slices in the 4 fixed strips, just like you were making a thread.

Then you wind the coil in the thread slices, the coil stays put because of the tight tolerance in the slices.

By pre-adding 4 thin removable plastic sheets next to the strips, it should be possible to remove the coil from the cylinder. Need I say the fixating rods must be longer than the coil for access to loosen the screws.

I have a friend with a machine shop, so when I have finished my SW I have considered to make my own coils.

Using this method, you can make the coils exactly as needed.
When I was young I worked several years in a machine shop, and with a bit of refinement to the above idea, especially the removal of the coil, I consider this doable.

Maybe you have some good suggestions for the coil data ?

Quote:
 There are dissadvantages to taking the capacitive route, mainly that the capacitive end of the spectrum interacts heavily with biological systems, and hence biological systems being primarily water, act as a load to the transmitter. This means that you the inventor can detune the system, and dissipate some of its energy in you!
I can confirm this. I had some success having a nice output, unfortunately I did not feel well for a week. The key to avoid this is to have one or more resonant and loaded receivers so they collect the energy better than your "sphere" head.

Quote:
 It would pay to try and accomplish the same transformer action via inductors, similar to what was displayed by MIT with their wireless transfer device several years ago.
Do you have a link for that ?

Eric
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#9
01-08-2010, 02:47 AM
 Armagdn03 Silver Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 919
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#10
01-08-2010, 03:17 AM
 kentman21 Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 6
Eccentric transformer theory

As stated by other members please do not assume that others are not interested by their apparant lack of replies. Your new way of thinking has me very interested in the development of this thread, and I will be visiting this site often to learn about these new ideas, I hope I will be able to contribute. I have ,what Patrick J kelly would call,a primative machine shop,which contains lathes, milling machines,bandsaws, hydraulic 30 ton press, facilties for sheet metal work upto 16 gauge steel, also facilities for welding (stick) and working hot rolled sections upto 1/4" thickness.My electronic facilties includes , scope 50MHz.Sig gen 514 MHz, Counter 10 digit by HP, and many other instruments formerly used in servicing radio and TV, some I might add dating back to the 50's!
So if you need an instrument you have just finished boxed up, I can do that.Or if you want an parallel or series LCR circuit swept, to disclose it's responce curve, I have the instruments to do it.
But , in spite, of having all these facilities, machine shop and electronics, I am still learning, and wish to learn more, especialy from experts as yourelf and others on this remarkable forum.
Thus I say please keep developing those ideas.
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#11
01-08-2010, 03:22 AM
 Armagdn03 Silver Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 919
The Turn Of The Century Electrotherapy Museum Tesla Library

this would be a nice inductor, though you could do without the bifilar, in fact it would detract, but the same method of turning the core would be fantastic.
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#12
01-08-2010, 03:49 AM
 dragon Silver Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 964
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Armagdn03 WOW! that would be fantastic, I would compensate you of course. The larger the diameter the better, I usually can only find around 4" pvc at the hardware store. Let me take some measurements and see what might work. What are your limits in terms of size?
I'd have to make up some adaptors for any size I did, the maximum length would probably be in the 2ft range possibly a little longer if needed. I'm not sure what is available in the diameters here locally, give me a rough diameter to shoot for and I'll do some calling around.
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Last edited by dragon; 01-19-2012 at 03:45 AM.
#13
01-08-2010, 07:03 AM
 nilrehob Silver Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Sweden Posts: 689
@Armagdn03

I guess what you described in the first post is exactly what Core of the physical effect discovered by Andrey Melnichenko is doing?

/Hob
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Hob Nilre
#14
01-08-2010, 08:00 AM
 Armagdn03 Silver Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 919
Quote:
 Originally Posted by nilrehob @Armagdn03 I guess what you described in the first post is exactly what Core of the physical effect discovered by Andrey Melnichenko is doing? /Hob
Absolutely not! I take this quote from the text given,

"Free magnetic field Bi2 does not form flux linkage with magnetizing wind. The electric energy source does not spend any energy on free magnetic filed formation. Field Bi2 does not come into the formula of work onto magnetisation.
All the electric energy costs in a wind are restricted (source current can not use more!) only by those magnetic energy which establishes the connection with magnetisation wind. Field Bi2 and magnetic energy connected with it appears absolutely for nothing without additional energy cost."

In my theory, there is a disconnect, but it is not 100 percent. There definitely is back talk as you can see by my maths, graphs, and descriptions. I would be very impressed indeed if he can say that the field of "bi2 does not come into the formula" and would say this probably means the gentleman has not completely done their homework. And key in this theory is the balancing point by where field induced and field returned per lenz like reaction are situated to return most power.
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Last edited by Armagdn03; 01-08-2010 at 08:03 AM.
#15
01-08-2010, 08:12 AM
 nilrehob Silver Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Sweden Posts: 689
@Armagdn03

Sorry if i express myself badly i usually do,
i'm not sure about their theory,
but it seems like you're doing about the same thing,

Good work!

/Hob
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Hob Nilre
#16
01-08-2010, 08:26 AM
 Armagdn03 Silver Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 919
Quote:
 Originally Posted by nilrehob @Armagdn03 Sorry if i express myself badly i usually do, i'm not sure about their theory, but it seems like you're doing about the same thing, although your theory seems stable. Good work! /Hob
Not a problem. It is more than possible that people have stumbled onto this effect in the past. What I have never seen is an explanation, or a science as to why. It is interesting though, because many things must be considered carefully. For example if you use the output to fill a capacitor with your capacitive pick up, you are automatically throwing away one half of your energy by energy transfer via capacitors. Thus very quickly can your energy gain be thrown away if you are not careful in how you manage it.
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#17
01-08-2010, 08:47 AM
 nilrehob Silver Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Sweden Posts: 689
Why not just go inductively?
Where is the gain with capacitive coupling?
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Hob Nilre

Last edited by nilrehob; 01-08-2010 at 08:54 AM. Reason: capacitive, not conductive
#18
01-08-2010, 05:15 PM
 Armagdn03 Silver Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 919
Going the inductive route is harder and more time consuming than the capacitive route, but it is planed for the near future. As you can see there is no gain in going either capacitive or inductive, they are essentially the same, but small capacitive globes pre made is easier than winding your own coils!
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Last edited by Armagdn03; 01-08-2010 at 05:56 PM.
#19
01-08-2010, 05:54 PM
 Armagdn03 Silver Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 919
Quote:
 Originally Posted by dragon I'd have to make up some adapters for any size I did, the maximum length would probably be in the 2ft range possibly a little longer if needed. I'm not sure what is available in the diameters here locally, give me a rough diameter to shoot for and I'll do some calling around.
Hello Dragon, thanks again for your wonderful offer to help. I was taking a look at that turn of the century electrotherapy museum coil I posted earlier. He is using 27 gauge at 10 turns per inch for one layer, I think I would like to use larger wire, less resistance, but only have one layer not two, I think if you could cut the ten threads per inch that would be plenty.

I would say as large a diameter as possible. The specs are not terribly important, because I will match all the drive circuitry to the coil after it is built, so this portion of the project can be a bit more loose.

Thanks again, and I will send you some \$\$\$ for the effort and shipping. Just pm me your personal info and hopefully we can get this on the road!
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#20
01-09-2010, 05:05 PM
 nilrehob Silver Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Sweden Posts: 689
@Armagdn03

Do you think this principle also works for inductive coupling between wires with an angle?
In ordinary transformers the angle between the wires is just about zero deg,
but what if we have an toroidal air-core,
and the primary is winded with an 45 deg angle from whats common,
and the secondary with zero deg as usual,
or 90 deg as in this thread at overunity:
Application for Overunity Prize
Would it work the same way do you think?

/Hob
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Hob Nilre
#21
01-09-2010, 07:43 PM
 Armagdn03 Silver Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 919
Quote:
 Originally Posted by nilrehob @Armagdn03 Do you think this principle also works for inductive coupling between wires with an angle? In ordinary transformers the angle between the wires is just about zero deg, but what if we have an toroidal air-core, and the primary is winded with an 45 deg angle from whats common, and the secondary with zero deg as usual, or 90 deg as in this thread at overunity: Application for Overunity Prize Would it work the same way do you think? /Hob

Ohh... Nirehob.....You were blessed with too much insight, hats off to you sir for connecting the dots and seeing the relations.

I was not planning on bringing this into the topic till later as the second half of the demonstration. There are two distinct paths one could take to fulfill the requirements of an eccentric transformer. One would be an electrical dielectric capacitive route, the other would be a magnetic flux driven route. I have showed the initial experiments on the capacitive half, and what you are speaking of is its magnetic brother!

Lets speak of both extremes in order to get a good grasp of what is taking place in such an arrangement. Consider two coil, primary and secondary, each wound concentrically as a standard transformer. As we have shown in the previous maths, changing the size ratios of the coils gains us no advantages, but changing whether or not they are wound about a different center gives us a new range of opportunities. This was done by physically seperating the two axis while keeping them parallel. One could also rotate one coils axis with respect to the other. If you have them at perpendicular angles, 90degrees, you will find that the coils are out of phase with each other, and you will have no induction from one coil to the next. If you have them at 0 degrees you will have 100%induction and 100%BEMF condition per lenz law.

Now lets take a look at 45". Here we see that the coils are now wound about their own seperate geometric centers, and because of this a familiar condition appears. The primary of the transformer will induce only HALF of its inductive properties to the secondary when the vector analysis is done. The secondary, at a 45 degree slant will now induce its own equal and opposite BEMF onto the primary. This too will be reduced by half, because of the relative angle between the two inductors. So lets say your primary creates a magnetic field strength 8 units. The secondary will feel 4, and return 4 which will be reduced again to 2 units pushing back on primary. This again due to the coupling of the inductors being wound about separate axis.

Again we are left with the situation where the energy created on the output side is less than what it took to create the power, and thus are at a loss. However if the input of our transformer is a charge conserving LC or tank circuit, then the remaining 6 units of the 8 initial (of which 2 were negated due to lenz law) are returned to the next cycle, and we can see the clear advantage.

We are left with a familiar situation. As the relative angle between inductors becomes closer and closer to 90, the process efficiency, or multiplication factor goes way up. However at the same time, the average field felt decreases. Where these two inverse relationships meet is the optimal angle which is the best compromise between power induced, and multiplication ratio. Its probably 45.

There are other ways to set this up geometrically to achieve the same effect, but this seems to be an effective method.

Also, circuit losses have to be kept very very small. The power you are dealing with needs to be orders of magnitude larger than the power it takes to run the circuitry. If you are working with a cop 4 mechanism, which has a capacitive output, you fill a larger cap with it, you are already at a 50 percent loss so you may not want a capacitive "load" in between your device and real load. If your switching losses are 50 percent of the energy you are dealing with, you are back down to 1 very easily. It is important to take these things into consideration in any build. What is the most effective energy management system possible in order to make use of what we have created!
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Last edited by Armagdn03; 01-09-2010 at 07:53 PM.
#22
01-09-2010, 11:22 PM
 gotoluc Gold Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,276
Great topic and experiments Andrew

I didn't know of this tread till today when I looked at the main topic page.

Thanks for taking the time to share you experiments through video as that really helps me understand things much quicker

If we have a primary coil Resonating at 100KHz and we have a secondary coil tuned to Resonate at the same frequency but positioned at 90 degrees, would it not start resonating to about the same amplitude as the primary

I'm sure you must of tried this but I don't think I have.

It would feel strange to me that a Resonantly tuned coil would stop just because of an angle change since I kind of tough of coil Resonance more like the influence of well tuned string instruments played and causing another one close by to start resonating the same stings. I don't think that effect stops by changing the angle?

Always something to learn

Luc
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#23
01-10-2010, 03:53 PM
 nilrehob Silver Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Sweden Posts: 689
By the looks of the latest coil-design by agentgates
i think he is aiming for another kind of effect entirely:

(this is not my coil, it is made by user agentgates at Application for Overunity Prize)

The secondary is only one turn!

If i understand correctly he doesn't collect/direct the flyback at all,
thus putting a lot of heat on the transistor.

/Hob
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Hob Nilre
#24
01-10-2010, 04:14 PM
 Armagdn03 Silver Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 919
Quote:
 Originally Posted by gotoluc Great topic and experiments Andrew I didn't know of this tread till today when I looked at the main topic page. Thanks for taking the time to share you experiments through video as that really helps me understand things much quicker If we have a primary coil Resonating at 100KHz and we have a secondary coil tuned to Resonate at the same frequency but positioned at 90 degrees, would it not start resonating to about the same amplitude as the primary I'm sure you must of tried this but I don't think I have. It would feel strange to me that a Resonantly tuned coil would stop just because of an angle change since I kind of tough of coil Resonance more like the influence of well tuned string instruments played and causing another one close by to start resonating the same stings. I don't think that effect stops by changing the angle? Always something to learn Luc
Actually it is weird but that is the case. Actually when coils are in resonance you can still couple at 90 degrees. This is because the second coil acts more as a mass of metal and couples to the other coil via the electric field. But when speaking of inductive transfer it is very much the case, coils need to be in parallel configuration to really take advantage of coupling.

http://www.gyros.biz/lecture/wmv/3.wmv

here is an interesting demo.
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#25
01-10-2010, 05:48 PM
 gotoluc Gold Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,276
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Armagdn03 Actually it is weird but that is the case. Actually when coils are in resonance you can still couple at 90 degrees. This is because the second coil acts more as a mass of metal and couples to the other coil via the electric field. But when speaking of inductive transfer it is very much the case, coils need to be in parallel configuration to really take advantage of coupling. http://www.gyros.biz/lecture/wmv/3.wmv here is an interesting demo.
Thanks for the reply and video Andrew

I did know about the non coupling of coils when one is at 90 degrees from the other. However, I didn't know that Science has no explanation for this

So will Resonantly tuned coils couple to the same no matter what the angle is? or is there a better coupling when they are both the same?

Luc
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#26
01-10-2010, 06:21 PM
 nilrehob Silver Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Sweden Posts: 689
Nice video, Escher is definitely a favorite of mine.
More on the mysterious transformer:
YouTube - Part 4 of 6: Eric Dollard & Chris Carson Tesla Longitudinal Wave Energy SBARC Ham Radio
All videos in the series are great, but look at around 5:50 in part 4 for the talk on transformers. Very interesting talk!
I thought i knew what was going on inside a transformer... now i definitely don't!

/Hob
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Hob Nilre
#27
01-10-2010, 08:36 PM
 bboj Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 40
Well I think that arround the secondary we have the same field that pushes the field through the core in the primary.
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#28
01-10-2010, 08:38 PM
 Armagdn03 Silver Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 919
@gotoluc,

When coils are in resonance as you know many times they have a high electrostatic component to them. This is what still couples at odd angles, capacitive coupling does not really have a directionality requirement. If you imagine the transmitter as a point source, and you place a pick up perpendicular, one end will be closer to the transmitter and one end will be further away. This means it is siting in a potential gradient and coupling can take place. Ill make a video of this later on for you...

@nilrehob

That is an interesting set of videos, however that transformer guy seems to be a bit confused on his physics. A circulating electrical current creates a magnetic dipole, we call it the B field. A circulating magnet "current" creates an electric dipole, we call this sometimes A field or E field. When we place a high permeability material in a magnetic dipole, the core acts like much space stuffed into small volume, so much of the action takes place within or gets "sucked in". If we place wire into the electrical dipole the same thing happens, the wire acts as much space stuffed into a small volume and the electrical field gets "sucked" in just like the magnetic field gets sucked into a high permeability core.
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#29
01-10-2010, 09:14 PM
 Armagdn03 Silver Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 919
Quote:
 Originally Posted by bboj Well I think that arround the secondary we have the same field that pushes the field through the core in the primary.

Yes you are in a sense correct, however the lenz reaction and summation of all fields leads to the conclusion that these are not ordinary equal and opposite action reaction equations.
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#30
01-11-2010, 12:39 AM
 Armagdn03 Silver Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 919
The second half of this is a little off the charts as they say, but it is an interesting mental exercise either way.

SCIENCE HOBBYIST: Right Angle Circuitry

I would say that this guy is a little confused also because, on figure 8 he says "WHY?!!! I don't know"!!! The reason is because there is very high resistance in the electrical circuit. Imagine the air surrounding the cores with its inherent electrical resistance. The added wire gives an easy path for current, which develops to a much greater degree due to the low ohmic resistance. Much like the ferro core allows easy path for magnetic flux.

Look up magnetomotive force for an interesting concept, emf = mmf
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Last edited by Armagdn03; 01-11-2010 at 12:59 AM.

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