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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 12-20-2009, 10:49 AM
dmonarch dmonarch is offline
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Electric Field

Why is it that we have essentially abandoned the electric field. We commonly make use of the magnetic field even though it constantly requires current to maintain yet here is the perfectly good tool which does not require anything to maintain it.
You create a dipole or a monopole and there is an electric field however because of the way we design mass capacitors it is not easily accesible. By throwing away the electric field you loose the ability to do such a thing as polarize a near by conductor.
By combining the ability of an electric field to polarize with cheap switching and an lc oscillator you have the ability to get something for free many times from one charge.
I am no wizz on electrostatics and so could be wrong. If i am please speak up.
Damo
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Old 12-20-2009, 03:19 PM
dmonarch dmonarch is offline
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Amazing

29 Views. Either what i posted is correct or it is so wrong people cant be bothered pointing it out.
Damo
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Old 12-20-2009, 04:58 PM
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lamare lamare is offline
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I guess your post is so general, it is very hard to say something useful about it.

You are right, tough, that there is energy in the static field. Prof. Turtur calculated the energy density of the static field, as I posted here: Use for the Tesla Switch

However, it is not that easy to harnass. There's always Murpheys law.....

So far, it appears that Bedini's charging methods can create a non-permanent electret inside a battery or a capacitor. It appears that gives you a static field you can use.

I have posted quite a bit about this electret or dielectric relaxation effect.

So, I don't think we have abandoned the electric field. The problem however is how to use it, without destroying the dipole that creates it, which is the single most difficult and important problem. You may want to look into Bearden's stuff, as I posted here:
Discussion re: the physics behind negative energy systems with radiant spikes

Hope this helps,

-- Arend --
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Old 12-20-2009, 05:27 PM
dmonarch dmonarch is offline
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Destroying the Dipole

Hi Lamare
Not destroying the dipole is easy. If you have a + charge and bring a conductor near it the loose negative charge on the conductor will move closest to the + charge and the far side will become + charged. If you have a + and - charge that is a dipole this effect still occurs when you bring a conductor close to it.
If you charged a capacitor you have a dipole however because the off the shelf capacitors typically make using the electric field surrounding it very difficult doing the above is impossible.
What do you do? You make your own capacitor consisting of flats layers making the electric field avalable. Now bring a conductor close to the charge capacitor on the positive side of it and the conductors loose electrons will once again be attracted to closest to the positive charge and the positive charge will be repelled to the far side.
Essentially this is what is occuring in electrophorus except a monopole is being used and the charged is fixed to the dialetric. When they explain electrophorus they say that even though you can repeatedly charge the top plate for free you still have to pay for lifting the panel up to discharge it. Sure thats one way of doing it.
Lets automate all of this. We make a flat capacitor consisting of a metal plate a dieletric and a metal plate. Now we can charge it and discharge it. To automate this task we put it in an lc circuit. Ok so now we place a dialetric on top of the cap and essentially make another cap on top of that consisting of a metal plate a dialetric and a metal plate. We connect the two plates of the top capacitor together with a wire and a relay. When the bottom cap is charged we close the relay. The electric field forces the - charge to the bottom plate of the top and the + charge to the top plate of the cap. Now we open the relay and discharge the bottom cap. Now you can place a load across the top cap.
I hear you say but you just discharged the bottom cap to turn the top cap into a dipole. Sure that would be true if you blew the bottom caps charge on a load however if you hook the bottom cap up to a inductor you have an oscillator.
So the process is charge the bottom cap close the top cap relay discharge the bottom cap into the inductor utilize the top cap in a load now discharge the inductor into the bottom cap and repeat the process.
For every charge of the bottom cap you can get many discharges from the top cap. If this process is correct it should be scalable.
Cheers
Damo
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Old 12-20-2009, 05:28 PM
wojwrobel wojwrobel is offline
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well

in my opinion electric field does not comsume that much energy as magnetic field so with no energy consumption there is not curent folwing so meter is not turning and our gouverments dont make money so its not practical right ??? al least for gouverments !!!

and now imagine that you have engin that uses only the electric field but no current !!! you dont pay anything yet still work is done !! no more energy addiction and energy slave!!!

and now use youtube and search static motor and yes this motor uses potential or voltage to run its just a prototype made by hobbist but its proff that this concept works ... but this would destroy our gouverments !!! no tax from energy ...no co2 tax etc... so noboody wants to touch it... or when tryies is stoped ....

thats my point of view

cheers from poland
wojsciech
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Old 12-20-2009, 05:37 PM
Joit Joit is offline
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Dipole

I think, the Counter for this Thread do a Break.

The EM Field is not to easy to tap in, and it has less power and low Pressure,
when you only try to collect it, thats why most dont consider it.

What in Batteries happens, i think its more a Event at a small Scale,
and the Polarities interact closer in there.
Last Times i did look some closer at the Tpu, and some Observations around the Vacuum Tubes, and it seems, the better Effects yoiu can get there is with Heat and right Plates, where the moving Current hits out more Electrons
from the Plates, what creates an Avalanche Effect.

And well, i think a Dipole is like a Origami Star.
http://www.origami-kunst.de/galerie/...gami-stern.jpg

Try to count the Stars, what are nested there, lol.
But some Angles from the Corners match pretty well, to what i did observe.
And when i compare Ferrofluid with this Forms, it even makes it logical for me.
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Old 12-20-2009, 05:43 PM
dmonarch dmonarch is offline
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Picture Thousand Words

Heres a picture to help. The bottom and top caps are not off the shelf caps. The setup requires the electric field and so you need to make your own little flat caps.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg circuit.jpg (98.9 KB, 61 views)
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 12-20-2009, 08:42 PM
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Inquorate Inquorate is offline
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Wimshurst

Seems well worth investigation I'll be getting a wimshurst generator in the new year to research static electricity, and looking to make my own pre polarized Electret capacitors, just gotta experiment with slow setting dielectrics and disolvable electrolytes.

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Old 12-20-2009, 10:31 PM
dmonarch dmonarch is offline
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In the Know

I would really appreciate hearing from those in the know on the topic. Peter, Aaron, where are you. It just seems to simple and it is more than likely i have overlooked something which i virtually always do
Cheers
Damo
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Old 12-20-2009, 10:34 PM
dmonarch dmonarch is offline
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Excellent

Excellent inquorote that would be good if you built it as well

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inquorate View Post
Seems well worth investigation I'll be getting a wimshurst generator in the new year to research static electricity, and looking to make my own pre polarized Electret capacitors, just gotta experiment with slow setting dielectrics and disolvable electrolytes.

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Old 12-20-2009, 11:59 PM
dmonarch dmonarch is offline
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Schematic incorrect

Sorry got the schem wrong. The top and the bottom layer are not directly coupled by a conductor but instead by the electric field
Cheers
Damo
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Old 12-21-2009, 07:44 AM
dmonarch dmonarch is offline
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Response

Well i have to be honest given what might be such a simple method that utilizes textbook physics to produce extra energy I am quite surprised at the lack of enthusiasm, input or response.
There is nothing new science wise in it just a different way of organizing things. I thought i would of atleast heard from those who are familiar with the science.
I dont know just seems weird this whole forum is based on find free energy.
I am sure the idea must be wrong which is why i want to hear from someone whos in the know.
Anywho's
Cheers
Damo
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Old 12-21-2009, 10:12 AM
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Inquorate Inquorate is offline
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At the risk of being unpopular..

There are 4 types of people in the world - and this forum -

1 those that think
2 those that do
3 those that think and do
4 dissenters, and distracters

We're in short supply of number threes, but plenty of ones and twos. Luckily we have a shortage of 4's but they're here

To be fair Dmonarch, we need to show results and documented experiments to sway the people willing to donate their (valuable) time and effort to join in research of any phenomena.

It also takes time to 're tool' so to speak, and change direction and mindset.

Baby steps are the order of the day.

Love and light
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Old 12-21-2009, 10:44 AM
dmonarch dmonarch is offline
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True

Well put inquorote. I guess i need to make it reality now. Was just hoping for some input first. I guess thats just the way it is.
Cheers
Damo
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  #15 (permalink)  
Old 12-21-2009, 12:19 PM
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Inquorate Inquorate is offline
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2 + 2, in theory

Electrophorus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Wimshurst machine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Electrostatic Motors & Generators -- Patents List & 6 Articles

YouTube - Water drop generator drives electrostatik engine

It'll make for some interesting experiments
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Old 12-21-2009, 02:18 PM
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nilrehob nilrehob is offline
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Interesting idea!

Maybe you don't need capacitors?
Maybe it can be done with coils only?
I did and videoed a test here a while ago with an open circuit that might give inspiration:
YouTube - Tesla-coil part 1, early coil

Its actually a small part of an early Tesla-coil.

I was planning for another direction with this,
but this basic idea it might be of interest here.

/Hob
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Old 12-21-2009, 03:18 PM
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lamare lamare is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmonarch View Post
We make a flat capacitor consisting of a metal plate a dieletric and a metal plate. Now we can charge it and discharge it. To automate this task we put it in an lc circuit. Ok so now we place a dialetric on top of the cap and essentially make another cap on top of that consisting of a metal plate a dialetric and a metal plate.
I have thought about something similar, only I was thinking of making an "inner" and an "outer" capacitor this way.

However, I doubt if one could get this to work practically, because for flat plates capacitors you would probably get very low capacitance, unless you would make electrolytic capacitors, which is not easy to do....

Just posted some stuff about electrolytic capacitors here: http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...html#post78387
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Old 12-26-2009, 10:25 AM
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Inquorate Inquorate is offline
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A question for all

Has anyone seen or heard of a battery being charged with electrostatic charge and ground?

I only ask because we've all seen enough systems 'doing what they shouldn't do' according to conventional electronics.

Which leads me to wonder about everything.

Love and light
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Old 12-26-2009, 09:46 PM
jeanna jeanna is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inquorate View Post
Has anyone seen or heard of a battery being charged with electrostatic charge and ground?

I only ask because we've all seen enough systems 'doing what they shouldn't do' according to conventional electronics.

Which leads me to wonder about everything.

Love and light
Hi Inquorate.
This is a great question.
Last summer I made a battery/dual capacitor thing that took + from an Al plate at 10 feet up my house wall and the other side was - to a zinc bucket buried in the ground.
I only got 1.17v, but I got it equally in 2 batteries as this was done in a 2 battery pack. I tested it and the charge was real if small.

I think you can try either the same circuit, ora modified version for use with a wimhurst.

This is a great idea. I got a wimhurst last year and popped it for a while, but completely missed doing this with the output.

Thanks.

[I know, I know... I will look for the diagram. It was not mine but it worked for the first time.]

jeanna

edit:

Well well.
I have such a time with diodes.
I am a spatial thinker and even tho I can see the neg it just always goes in wrong.
I found the pic then I looked at the battery charging circuit I made and I see I made it wrong.
I put the ground and foil backwards.
So, if this diagram does not give good results for you, flip it as I did unintentionally...

j
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Last edited by jeanna : 12-26-2009 at 10:12 PM.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 12-26-2009, 10:12 PM
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wimshurst

I'm getting a wimshurst machine for myself soon, I want to start looking into making an Electret Electrophorus and electrostatic engine.

For those that want to play with hv static, but don't have wimshurst - put alfoil sheet on your tv, it will develop positive static charge.

However I want much higher voltage.

For the price of switching, as Dmonarch has pointed out, an Electrophorus charged once can impart charge to a metal disk many times.

Very interesting.
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Old 12-29-2009, 12:22 AM
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fun with e-fields

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inquorate View Post
For those that want to play with hv static, but don't have wimshurst - put alfoil sheet on your tv, it will develop positive static charge.
Hmmmm... Some of us have LCD displays. Others have
plasma displays. Cathode Ray is so ... 1950s.

Actually, a clothes dryer and certain materials found in
sweaters, can make a good Wimshurst substitute.

Or, you can rub your cat against a balloon ... which
might produce enough to drive a small laser (sorry
Saturday-Night-Live) :-)

I've found that you can get a copper cylinder (a section
of copper pipe from hardware store), wrap a coil
with insulated wire directly around it, and run high voltage AC
though the coil. Kill the power and the copper cylinder will
be left with quite a nasty charge ... even if the cylinder is quite
small -- physically.
It is well known that time varying magnetic fields can
produce e-fields. It wasn't know to me, however, that
such a small little copper cylinder could hold such a large charge.
I imagine that the electrons in the copper are put into a SPIN,
like billions of gyroscopes, directly in the diamagnetic copper.
Electricians and plumbers know not to put wiring near pipes or
to be careful with pipes near wiring.
Why not use that to some advantage to produce fields?
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Old 12-29-2009, 04:54 AM
rave154 rave154 is offline
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INQ,

your mention of electrophorus has reminded me, straining my memory here but i recall a thread titled " missing info on tesla found" or something like that...and it turns out that in Teslas "utilisation of radient energy" ( again from memory ) the "metal plate in the sky" was pre-charged electrophorusly ( whatever that means ) to enhance or even produce the effect.
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Old 12-30-2009, 02:51 AM
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electrostatic charger

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inquorate View Post
Has anyone seen or heard of a battery being charged with electrostatic charge and ground?
Technically, if there is no current in the output of a Bedini charger,
it is a relatively low voltage electrostatic charger and it works better
with a real earth ground.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 12-30-2009, 03:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
Technically, if there is no current in the output of a Bedini charger,
it is a relatively low voltage electrostatic charger and it works better
with a real earth ground.
True. When I can, I'll sit down for a bit and get a baseline for joules used to charge coil vs joules out from coil collapse.

I also want to see if the voltage used when increased = linear increase in joules recovered.

When I get my wimshurst, I'll try see how that compares to static joules re charge. I have no idea how, but it would be interesting.
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