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  #301 (permalink)  
Old 02-11-2010, 04:31 PM
rave154 rave154 is offline
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Good work LUC !! ( as usual ),

could you try one simple test that would only require a slight re-positioning of the coil...

at the moment you have the two "splits" in the windings furthest away from the magnet when the magnet is at TDC... could you rotate the coil 90 degrees so that one of the splits is closest to the magnet at TDC..and observe any change/s in rpm or anything else.

your "split" config is making me wonder wether its actually ness' to wind wire around the entire toroid but instead just to cover the front portion that the magnet really only sees....ie....about 30% or os of the toroid - the front section that is closest to the magnet..also....how about two lil split windings that cover that 30% area?

Hope this helps
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  #302 (permalink)  
Old 02-11-2010, 04:56 PM
cody cody is offline
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Hi luc,
Sorry i havnt been following the thread lately but i seen the last vid and found it interesting. Im wondering what the generator or bemf scope shot (when you disconected the power from the running motor) looks like with the two coils in a standard fashion. In other words is there less bemf with one long coil or less bemf with your opposing coils for a givin rotor speed? Its an interesting idea and i see the theory behind it.

Also one thing that has been bugging me about orbo is the toroid. I mean its a cool and interesting idea and all but i know from leedskalnin experiments that you are not harvesting all of the collapsing field because of the closed loop flux path(ferrite toroid) In other words that core is still charged with a magnetic energy that is undetectable by any means other than breaking the core. Due to this, i think it might get more efficient if the polarity is flipped for every pulse (AC). Another option would be to still use DC, but use a core that dosnt completly close the loop. A good example would be the ferrite core from a flyback transformer from a tv or computer monitor. Those cores are almost like a toroid except they have a small plastic spacer where the cores connect. This core produces a very good energy transfer for the flyback and allows a more complete collapse for dc applications. Im in the process of testing the flyback core currently, but i just moved for school and dont have all my stuff so progress has been slow

Another thing to make it even more efficient would be to add a second winding, twice the length of your input winding. This winding would act like a transformer on the input pulse, doubling the voltage of the input and could be fed back to the front end or another cap or whatever. Bedini does this. That way you can harvest the input directly and collect the flyback as well, of course you need to get your diodes figured out there, a full wave bridge would collect input and flyback. I know there is lots more ideas to play with here, but just wanted to share my thoughts.

Cody
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  #303 (permalink)  
Old 02-11-2010, 05:49 PM
gotoluc gotoluc is offline
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Hi rave154 and Cody,

thanks for your interest. I'm presently building a dual magnet rotor to further test so I ask you be patient for some hours. I will answer the questions as soon as I have the new rotor tested and make a new video.

Stay tuned.

Luc
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  #304 (permalink)  
Old 02-11-2010, 07:38 PM
rave154 rave154 is offline
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LUC, a dual rotor sounds good....twice the torque for free ( or at least for the same amount of electrical IN anyways )......going to tap off any of that torque in terms of a pickup coil or two ;-) ?

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  #305 (permalink)  
Old 02-12-2010, 01:49 AM
gotoluc gotoluc is offline
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Hi all,

here is a new video that better demonstrate the differences between a single coil toroid over a dual split coil toroid since I did not show the difference between the two in the last video.

I did build a new rotor to accommodate 2 magnets but before adding the second set of magnets I decided to do this video (single magnets) so we have a measuring difference using the same rotor since the rotor characteristics have now changed.

I didn't have enough time at the end of the video to do an Inductance test of the coil once in the preferable configuration, so here are the numbers:

880mH @ TDC (coil on position)
1,050mH @ (coil off position)
6.75 Ohm DC Resistance

Also single coil resistance is 3.35 Ohms

I will be away for the next 2 days, so the dual magnet test will have to wait till maybe Sunday.

I don't understand this effect, so if anyone has an idea of what's going on please share.

Link to video: YouTube - GOBO Magnet Motor test 4

Luc
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  #306 (permalink)  
Old 02-12-2010, 03:01 AM
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Michelinho Michelinho is offline
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Hi gotoluc,

Nice video that shows the dual coils toroid in action.

The dual coil on toroid setup will work much better with a magnet duet because within the spirit of Howard Johnson, the North and South magnetic currents on a single magnet pole look a bit like a fountain shooting up and on a duet, the vortexes look like a bridge formed by the 2 magnetic currents.

The bridge splits after hitting the toroid into upper and lower magnetic current streams separately affected by each coils action on the inner currents and the magnetic currents hitting the toroid coming from the magnets through the coils(disrupt the flow). Divide and conquer as my friend said when suggesting a dual coil setup last week. It is or should be easier to make the magnetic currents reconnect to form the bridge (duet) than to repulse an incoming flow(single).

What I want to check is if there is also an air gap on the toroid with the dual coils, would the marriage (saturation) be a little self regulating so the setup is more forgiving.

Waiting for your next video.

Take care,

Michel
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  #307 (permalink)  
Old 02-12-2010, 03:19 AM
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Michelinho Michelinho is offline
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Re gotoluc,

I forgot to comment on the slow speed using only 1 coil (1/2 the toroid). What I suspect is that part of the magnetic currents is deviated and enters the toroid where the coil that is not powered is and you have only half the opposing field to beat saturation. The lower coil is aligned with the magnet so disruption of the flow in the lower part and the upper part is farther away) and when the top coil part is energized, the magnet still faces the ferrite with little outside flow disruption so more drag. That is how I see it, might be very wrong.

Take care,

Michel
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  #308 (permalink)  
Old 02-12-2010, 04:30 AM
gotoluc gotoluc is offline
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Hi all,

a last quick update!

I added the top row of South pole magnets to the rotor and basically the current is half of what it was. I also had to back out the core about 2mm as it was getting noisy.

The current is now around 8.6ma @ 1.58vdc with the coils connected in the preferred dual mode. RPM is 195 from 210 with single magnets and flyback at 1K load is 1.19vdc from 1.43vdc with single magnets.

Inductance @TDC is 793mH and 1,053mH at off position.

That's all for a few days.

Luc
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  #309 (permalink)  
Old 02-13-2010, 11:38 PM
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Inquorate Inquorate is offline
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Ted's permanent magnet motor test jig - huge torque

@ Gotoluc / all - thought you'd appreciate what Ted's built over at hereticalbuilders

Semi contained field rotor? - Page 2 - Heretical Builders

Check it out
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  #310 (permalink)  
Old 02-13-2010, 11:59 PM
rave154 rave154 is offline
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INQ..

WOW......that is completely unexpected and un-intuitive ! ( remember what i said about id love to just take what the goverment { gubermente - latin for mind control btw } says and just do the complete OPPOSITE, just to see what happens )........well...theres a nice example of doing just that....but in a "physics" way

{"ARGOS, with the laminated books of dreams.....to catch the Tears of JOY.......ohhh so many beautiful things, i cannot possibly possess them alll" - Bill Bailey}
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  #311 (permalink)  
Old 02-14-2010, 01:14 AM
gotoluc gotoluc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rave154 View Post
Good work LUC !! ( as usual ),

could you try one simple test that would only require a slight re-positioning of the coil...

at the moment you have the two "splits" in the windings furthest away from the magnet when the magnet is at TDC... could you rotate the coil 90 degrees so that one of the splits is closest to the magnet at TDC..and observe any change/s in rpm or anything else.

your "split" config is making me wonder wether its actually ness' to wind wire around the entire toroid but instead just to cover the front portion that the magnet really only sees....ie....about 30% or os of the toroid - the front section that is closest to the magnet..also....how about two lil split windings that cover that 30% area?

Hope this helps
Hi rave154,

when I wound the first coil half on the ferrite toroid cor I tested it and found that where the coil was located was where it worked best. I could not get it to turn if I had the magnet attract to the half of the core that had no wire on it.

Hope this answers your question.

Luc
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  #312 (permalink)  
Old 02-14-2010, 01:18 AM
gotoluc gotoluc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cody View Post
Hi luc,
Sorry i havnt been following the thread lately but i seen the last vid and found it interesting. Im wondering what the generator or bemf scope shot (when you disconected the power from the running motor) looks like with the two coils in a standard fashion. In other words is there less bemf with one long coil or less bemf with your opposing coils for a givin rotor speed? Its an interesting idea and i see the theory behind it.

Also one thing that has been bugging me about orbo is the toroid. I mean its a cool and interesting idea and all but i know from leedskalnin experiments that you are not harvesting all of the collapsing field because of the closed loop flux path(ferrite toroid) In other words that core is still charged with a magnetic energy that is undetectable by any means other than breaking the core. Due to this, i think it might get more efficient if the polarity is flipped for every pulse (AC). Another option would be to still use DC, but use a core that dosnt completly close the loop. A good example would be the ferrite core from a flyback transformer from a tv or computer monitor. Those cores are almost like a toroid except they have a small plastic spacer where the cores connect. This core produces a very good energy transfer for the flyback and allows a more complete collapse for dc applications. Im in the process of testing the flyback core currently, but i just moved for school and dont have all my stuff so progress has been slow

Another thing to make it even more efficient would be to add a second winding, twice the length of your input winding. This winding would act like a transformer on the input pulse, doubling the voltage of the input and could be fed back to the front end or another cap or whatever. Bedini does this. That way you can harvest the input directly and collect the flyback as well, of course you need to get your diodes figured out there, a full wave bridge would collect input and flyback. I know there is lots more ideas to play with here, but just wanted to share my thoughts.

Cody
Hi Cody,

I'm wondering if your questions above have been answered in the last GOBO test 4 video?

Please let me know.

Luc
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  #313 (permalink)  
Old 02-14-2010, 01:27 AM
gotoluc gotoluc is offline
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Originally Posted by Michelinho View Post
Re gotoluc,

I forgot to comment on the slow speed using only 1 coil (1/2 the toroid). What I suspect is that part of the magnetic currents is deviated and enters the toroid where the coil that is not powered is and you have only half the opposing field to beat saturation. The lower coil is aligned with the magnet so disruption of the flow in the lower part and the upper part is farther away) and when the top coil part is energized, the magnet still faces the ferrite with little outside flow disruption so more drag. That is how I see it, might be very wrong.

Take care,

Michel
Hi Michel,

thanks for your interest.

One correction!... the slow speed was using both coils and then I just reversed the connections of the upper coil and it starts to run normal (faster). I think this (slow speed and next to no flyback) is caused because the coils are wound in opposite directions. There maybe a flux cancellation connected one way but the other way it works.

Let me know what you think.

Luc
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  #314 (permalink)  
Old 02-14-2010, 01:32 AM
gotoluc gotoluc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inquorate View Post
@ Gotoluc / all - thought you'd appreciate what Ted's built over at hereticalbuilders

Semi contained field rotor? - Page 2 - Heretical Builders

Check it out
Hi Inquorate,

thanks for sharing Ted's work. It is interesting but I maybe too tired to see the benefits of this at this time.

Please share how this effect would be of benefit.

Thanks

Luc
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  #315 (permalink)  
Old 02-14-2010, 08:00 AM
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Michelinho Michelinho is offline
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Hi gotoluc,

I like the Orbo model, it is a nice little setup with many unanswered questions. So far I've tested regular and bifilar windings in different wire size and material: Regular magnet wire in size 28, 24, 22 and size 17 in aluminum in regular and bifilar wind. I have used copper tape on part and whole of the toroid.

Regular winding work well and bifilar not (weak external field). Shield as I made them were useless but I have ordered 3 lb of bismuth for futur experiments with magnets and coils.

Quote:
One correction!... the slow speed was using both coils and then I just reversed the connections of the upper coil and it starts to run normal (faster). I think this (slow speed and next to no flyback) is caused because the coils are wound in opposite directions. There maybe a flux cancellation connected one way but the other way it works.
Yes, you are right, in series it becomes a full coil and in parallel it creates opposing poles with virtual poles like the SSG.

I have the magnets for the next orbo replication and at least 8 externaly identical toroids(more coils = more torque and easier load on the driver). I'll go from reed switch to Hall effect sensor and microprocessor controled supply. I want to try a SCR instead of MOSFET in the circuit. I have many other plans when I get it to work as the original Orbo.

I must use the occasion to thank you for all the great experiments you present on the forum and in video, you taught me a lot and you saved me a lot of testing time. Keep up the good work.

Take care,

Michel
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  #316 (permalink)  
Old 02-16-2010, 03:31 PM
gyula gyula is offline
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Originally Posted by gotoluc View Post
@Gyula or anyone that can help.

could you post some optical switch circuits and components that can be used.

I have one of those night light that turn on when it's dark. Could I use the light sensitive resistor from it to control a mosfet gate? I have both NPN and PNP mosfet's on hand.

Thanks for your help

Luc
Hi Luc,

Though I replied to you on the above topic about half an hour later after you had asked you did not build it with the light sensitive resistor but the reed switch. Probably I should have drawn a schematic too but was in a hurry then.
Here is an optical switch schematic from Naudin in the middle of this link and any type of opto coupler can be used. (Of course the generator idea is ALSO worth studying

2SGen, an amazing tiny Solid State Generator by JL Naudin

Some info on opto-isolators (optocouplers) : Opto-isolators In the schematics shown the OUT pin can go directly to a power MOSFET gate and the common negative to the source of the MOSFET. At the bottom of the link some manufacturers link is included to their opto devices.

rgds, Gyula
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  #317 (permalink)  
Old 02-16-2010, 06:24 PM
cody cody is offline
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Hi Cody,

I'm wondering if your questions above have been answered in the last GOBO test 4 video?

Please let me know.

Luc
Hi Luc,

Thanks for doing that test. Well, for the generator effect, its obvious that you are getting a lower voltage with your configuration but its hard to say for sure which one is producing more/less power without a current measurement. Being that its the same coil length and turns either way, im assuming that it does indeed produce less power, but the unusual wiring configuration could be producing a transformer effect, which would mean that voltage alone isnt enough information. But its looking very good so far. Great work!

Cody
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  #318 (permalink)  
Old 02-17-2010, 03:14 AM
gotoluc gotoluc is offline
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Hi Luc,

Though I replied to you on the above topic about half an hour later after you had asked you did not build it with the light sensitive resistor but the reed switch. Probably I should have drawn a schematic too but was in a hurry then.
Here is an optical switch schematic from Naudin in the middle of this link and any type of opto coupler can be used. (Of course the generator idea is ALSO worth studying

2SGen, an amazing tiny Solid State Generator by JL Naudin

Some info on opto-isolators (optocouplers) : Opto-isolators In the schematics shown the OUT pin can go directly to a power MOSFET gate and the common negative to the source of the MOSFET. At the bottom of the link some manufacturers link is included to their opto devices.

rgds, Gyula
Hi Gyula,

I did see your previous post!... thanks for your help as always. The optical switch I had in mind is to replace the reed switch for my Orbo experiments. I think what you posted above is to isolate a mosfet switch optically. I don't see how this will make an optical timing switch.

Thanks again.

Luc
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  #319 (permalink)  
Old 02-17-2010, 03:17 AM
gotoluc gotoluc is offline
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Hi everyone,

here is a new video an maybe my last video of GOBO as I've tested many things and this is the best as I can get it to at this time.

Link to video: YouTube - GOBO Magnet Motor test 5

Luc
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  #320 (permalink)  
Old 02-17-2010, 03:31 AM
gotoluc gotoluc is offline
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This video is now deleted as it was incorrect.

See below explanation

Luc

Last edited by gotoluc : 02-17-2010 at 08:19 PM.
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  #321 (permalink)  
Old 02-17-2010, 11:34 AM
gyula gyula is offline
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Originally Posted by gotoluc View Post
Hi Gyula,

I did see your previous post!... thanks for your help as always. The optical switch I had in mind is to replace the reed switch for my Orbo experiments. I think what you posted above is to isolate a mosfet switch optically. I don't see how this will make an optical timing switch.

Thanks again.

Luc
Hi Luc,

Yes, you are right, sorry. What you need is an optical interrupter that has a slot you can open or close by a rotating piece of plastic like for instance Naudin used in his version 3 Steorn replication. See it at 0:28 in his video: YouTube - The New Steorn motor V3 replication by JL Naudin It is a T shaped black colored plastic piece glued to the rotor body, that interrupts light in the optical 'gate' during rotation.

(His opto interrupter type is RPI-441C1 from Rohm Semiconductor, quoted from a member at overunity.com)

OF course there are other types, for instance OPB490 datasheet pdf datenblatt - OPTEK Technologies - Photologic Slotted Optical Switches ::: ALLDATASHEET ::: or Optoelectronics - Infrared Products - Phototransistor Optical Interrupter Switches/Gap Width=5 mm, Fairchild Semiconductor - Global Leader in Power Optimization etc.

Here is a schematic I gave last year to a member at overunity.com, it is with a bipolar switching transistor but it is good also for MOSFETs.
Circuit setups for pulse motors

If you use MOSFET for switching, its gate should go to the point where the base is indicated and its source to where the emitter is tied to, i.e. gnd.

rgds, Gyula
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  #322 (permalink)  
Old 02-17-2010, 05:25 PM
gotoluc gotoluc is offline
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Thanks Gyula,

yes! that is what I wanted.

Luc
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  #323 (permalink)  
Old 02-17-2010, 08:21 PM
gotoluc gotoluc is offline
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Hi everyone,

I deleted the inductance gain test video (posted above) as I did some new tests today and I now can confirmed that there is no energy gain if inductance is increased during a coil energizing period (on time).

I had not realized that when the core dropped back down when switched off it induced a current in the coil because of the magnet I add to the core. That is where the gain was coming from.

I will delete the video posted above as it maybe misleading and not mention confusing

Luc
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  #324 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2010, 08:00 PM
rave154 rave154 is offline
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gotoluc's flynn device

Hi LUC, hope things are well with you.

I just reviewed your flynn tests and something struck me.

in your first video you used a MOT for a heavy weight, but then, in the second video used a small piece of core.

point being the device without power, was easily capable of lifting the heavy MOT ( and perhaps even more weight? who knows?)...with that in mind...refer to the attachment if you will.


at the top is your flynn device, under it instead of the MOT...is a heavy piece of steel/iron connected underneath via plastic ( or non ferrous ) is a stack of neos which are inserted into a pickup coil.

as you power the flynn device, the heavy steel/iron falls due to gravity, which is free apart from the pulse of power required by the flynn to "let go" of the heavy steel.

as it falls it generates current in the pickup coil, BUT....it then bounces against the spring back up...which is definitely free, again generating current in the coil....in fact with careful timing / selection of weights & springs......the heavy steel as it bounced back up.....would not have to actually physically re-connect to the flynn....as the flynn could be triggered just at the right time to turn "off" the flux and allow the heavy steel to fall again ( via free gravity again )

in the picture i have the pickup coil placed simply around the bottom stack of neos....obviously this may or may not be the ideal place to put a pickup coil.

thinking about "how much" weight to use...you would choose a weight which is just inside the limit of what the flynn is capable of holding, that way you could use only a very minimal pulse to release it..and allow the springs to bounce it back up again.

thinking about it, there should be a gap between the heacy steel and the springs......to allow the steel to free fall through the coil before hitting the springs and being sprung back up again
Attached Images
File Type: jpg bouncy flynn.jpg (54.1 KB, 41 views)

Last edited by rave154 : 07-10-2010 at 08:07 PM.
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  #325 (permalink)  
Old 07-12-2010, 08:49 PM
rave154 rave154 is offline
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LUC ( if youre still out there )...

re my last post and the diagram...

instead of the springs.... after watching your video "Magent and Coil test 1"...where you have a magnet fixed at the bottom in repel mode.... this might be used to replace the springs and still provide "bounce" back up towards the flynn?

your video...

YouTube - Magnet and Coil test 1
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  #326 (permalink)  
Old 07-13-2010, 01:24 AM
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anyone heard from @gotoluc? This was / is a pretty good idea.
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  #327 (permalink)  
Old 07-13-2010, 04:45 AM
gotoluc gotoluc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rave154 View Post
Hi LUC, hope things are well with you.

I just reviewed your flynn tests and something struck me.

in your first video you used a MOT for a heavy weight, but then, in the second video used a small piece of core.

point being the device without power, was easily capable of lifting the heavy MOT ( and perhaps even more weight? who knows?)...with that in mind...refer to the attachment if you will.


at the top is your flynn device, under it instead of the MOT...is a heavy piece of steel/iron connected underneath via plastic ( or non ferrous ) is a stack of neos which are inserted into a pickup coil.

as you power the flynn device, the heavy steel/iron falls due to gravity, which is free apart from the pulse of power required by the flynn to "let go" of the heavy steel.

as it falls it generates current in the pickup coil, BUT....it then bounces against the spring back up...which is definitely free, again generating current in the coil....in fact with careful timing / selection of weights & springs......the heavy steel as it bounced back up.....would not have to actually physically re-connect to the flynn....as the flynn could be triggered just at the right time to turn "off" the flux and allow the heavy steel to fall again ( via free gravity again )

in the picture i have the pickup coil placed simply around the bottom stack of neos....obviously this may or may not be the ideal place to put a pickup coil.

thinking about "how much" weight to use...you would choose a weight which is just inside the limit of what the flynn is capable of holding, that way you could use only a very minimal pulse to release it..and allow the springs to bounce it back up again.

thinking about it, there should be a gap between the heacy steel and the springs......to allow the steel to free fall through the coil before hitting the springs and being sprung back up again
Hi rave154,

thanks for your post and diagram.

I think the load connected to the generating coil will cause a resistance (loss of momentum) in each direction the magnet travels through the generator coil. This and some losses in the spring or repelling magnet will prevent the generator magnet to go back high enough for the Flynn to attract it to create another cycle.

It would need to be tested to confirm 100%

Luc
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  #328 (permalink)  
Old 07-13-2010, 08:54 AM
rave154 rave154 is offline
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Thanks for the reply Luc,

pondering it all now...trying to do a "tesla mind experiment" of it all ( best i can anyways )

ordered a magnetic field viewer, i want to study further the effects on a magnetic flux when a second flux is rapidly introduced in the same area..at various angles etc. The reason being..is that flux....unlike "mechanical" things.....can just..almost instantaneously "jump" to a new location and then spring back..... seems to me to be a very efficient form of "movement"..and since we can pick up power each time it does this.....it would seem that finding the correct form of geometry between the two fluxes to maximise the "rate of change" is important.

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  #329 (permalink)  
Old 07-13-2010, 03:19 PM
gotoluc gotoluc is offline
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Sounds good rave

All the best in your magnetic flux experiments

Luc
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  #330 (permalink)  
Old 04-13-2012, 11:19 PM
gotoluc gotoluc is offline
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Hi everyone,

it has been over 2 years since I fist started this topic about a AC Permanent Magnet Motor Design idea I had that its motive force would mostly come from Permanent magnets.

Maybe I didn't explain all the design advantages well enough when I fist introduced it so I decided to build a small prototype and do a better video. In this video I demonstrate the design idea I had 2 years ago of bridging over the opposite pole of the Magnet using steel lamination over the outside of the coil. This takes advantage of the coils outside opposite field which close to doubles the motive force without using additional current..

Please keep in mind that the coil I'm using in this demo model maybe far from optimum. I still need to learn about coil time constant. There are also many other details that could be optimized. So I think it would be fair to say that the motive force could be doubled without additional current input.

I need to learn more about how to calculate the ideal coil resistance and turns for a particular on time, voltage and frequency. So if anyone can see obvious things from the scope shots that the coils on time power is being wasted (not making a strong field) please advise me.
I also need to learn the proper specs for making a Pony Brake to do some load tests.


Links to video's:
Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor Part A: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor Part A - YouTube

Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor Part B: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor Part B - YouTube


Your input is welcomed


Luc

Last edited by gotoluc : 04-13-2012 at 11:33 PM.
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