2014 Energy Science & Technology Conference


Energetic Forum  

Go Back   Energetic Forum > Energetic Forum Discussion > Renewable Energy
Homepage Energetic Science Ministries Register FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Renewable Energy Discussion on various alternative energy, renewable energy, & free energy technologies. Also any discussion about the environment, global warming, and other related topics are welcome here.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #2131 (permalink)  
Old 03-01-2012, 07:57 PM
woopy woopy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 377
Hi all

i made a small experiment using on both melting spot the same steel wire.

And i noticed that if i make some distance between electrode i get a significant plasma arc (about 1 cm ) but look at the pix enclosed

there is a huge difference between the 2 ends of the plasma arc.
the left end is cold and the right end is hot (and melts)

So the output energy getting out of the leads of the secondaries are of different nature.

What do you think ??

good luck at all

Laurent
Attached Images
File Type: jpg plasma-rarc-in-sergdo-toroi.jpg (19.2 KB, 53 views)
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Live Bookmark this Post!Google Bookmark this Post!Yahoo Bookmark this Post! share on MyspaceShare on FacebookTweet this thread
Reply With Quote
  #2132 (permalink)  
Old 03-01-2012, 08:23 PM
xee2 xee2 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 580
Quote:
Originally Posted by woopy View Post
What do you think ??
This circuit is basically a Joule thief with opposing secondaries (this increases the effective inductance of the secondary). I have built many Joule thief circuits with secondaries and they all have more current from one output than the other.

EDIT: I may have said this poorly. The current flows from one output to the other. The current leaving one output will be identical to the current entering the other output (just like in a battery). But, one output will have a larger positive voltage than the other. Thus an LED placed across the outputs will be brighter in one direction than the other.

It is easier to pull electrons from a sharp point than from a flat surface. Thus having the negative terminal connected to the wire should make it easier to generate the plasma.

Last edited by xee2 : 03-01-2012 at 09:41 PM.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Live Bookmark this Post!Google Bookmark this Post!Yahoo Bookmark this Post! share on MyspaceShare on FacebookTweet this thread
Reply With Quote
  #2133 (permalink)  
Old 03-01-2012, 08:56 PM
boguslaw's Avatar
boguslaw boguslaw is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,119
one is current and second one is voltage, well.... Don Smith theory not mine
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Live Bookmark this Post!Google Bookmark this Post!Yahoo Bookmark this Post! share on MyspaceShare on FacebookTweet this thread
Reply With Quote
  #2134 (permalink)  
Old 03-01-2012, 09:16 PM
woopy woopy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 377
Hi Xee2

My question is exactly what you point out

is it a difference of the nature of energy on the output secondaries.

is it simply more or less energy on one side and less or more of the same energy on the other.

or
Are we dealing on the fact that on one side we have a "cold " or better sayd perhaps soft radiant ....energy .and on the other side a "hot " and so brutal energy that it can MELT steel .

Is this Sergdo's winding organising a transfer of this cold overall radiant energy to a hot powerfull and usefull energy by using the plasma arc ?

youpp thinking out of the box here

am prepared for bombing attack do not worry

good luck at all

laurent
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Live Bookmark this Post!Google Bookmark this Post!Yahoo Bookmark this Post! share on MyspaceShare on FacebookTweet this thread
Reply With Quote
  #2135 (permalink)  
Old 03-01-2012, 09:37 PM
Bob Smith Bob Smith is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 337
Something interesting to throw into the mix. IST's video of a joule thief on a ferrite yoke, bumping the voltage up to over 400V with one D cell battery using a neo magnet, then removing it. He maintains that the neo gets the mag current into a rapid spin, hence the hi voltage. Sounds like SM's TPU:
FREE ENGERY COIL - YouTube

Maybe this opens up some possibilities for further experimentation with the Sergdo setup.
Bob
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Live Bookmark this Post!Google Bookmark this Post!Yahoo Bookmark this Post! share on MyspaceShare on FacebookTweet this thread
Reply With Quote
  #2136 (permalink)  
Old 03-01-2012, 09:49 PM
xee2 xee2 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 580
@ woopy

Please see the edit to my last post. I think it is just a matter of connecting the wire to the most negative output since electrons can be pulled from the wire more easily than from a flatter surface.

Last edited by xee2 : 03-01-2012 at 10:06 PM.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Live Bookmark this Post!Google Bookmark this Post!Yahoo Bookmark this Post! share on MyspaceShare on FacebookTweet this thread
Reply With Quote
  #2137 (permalink)  
Old 03-01-2012, 10:07 PM
woopy woopy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 377
Hi Xee2

trying to understand your idea

and a simple question simply to be very clear in my mind.

Do you think that the plasma arc goes (or is generated ) from the left part of the first electrode ( as of my pix ) and goes to the right part of the second electrode (as of my pix) , or is it the contrary movement . ??

Thank's

Laurent
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Live Bookmark this Post!Google Bookmark this Post!Yahoo Bookmark this Post! share on MyspaceShare on FacebookTweet this thread
Reply With Quote
  #2138 (permalink)  
Old 03-01-2012, 10:35 PM
citfta citfta is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 833
Simple explanation

The output is pulsing DC. The electrons are flowing from left to right in the picture. As the electrons strike the other end of the arc they are heating the metal hot enough to melt it. This is the same principle which is used in electron beam welding and plasma arc cutting. I really don't think there is any cold and hot electricity in what you are doing. I have worked on industrial beam welders and very large plasma arc cutting machines. I do think it is very interesting that you can get that much power from such a small and simple circuit.

Carroll
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Live Bookmark this Post!Google Bookmark this Post!Yahoo Bookmark this Post! share on MyspaceShare on FacebookTweet this thread
Reply With Quote
  #2139 (permalink)  
Old 03-01-2012, 11:16 PM
xee2 xee2 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 580
woopy,

I agree with citfta.

I do not think I can tell which end plasma starts at. The plasma is the electrons hitting the air molecules and that happens over the entire path of the electrons but should be more intense at the electrode that they are coming from. However, when the electrons hit the positive electrode they vaporize the metal which also produces plasma.

If I understand correctly, the best results should be with the output having the highest negative voltage connected to the wire (or other pointed object) and streaming electrons to an object connected to the most positive output which gets hot when hit by the electrons.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Live Bookmark this Post!Google Bookmark this Post!Yahoo Bookmark this Post! share on MyspaceShare on FacebookTweet this thread
Reply With Quote
  #2140 (permalink)  
Old 03-01-2012, 11:16 PM
Neight's Avatar
Neight Neight is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 322
Can't believe I didn't think of this before, but a few weeks back, I ran into two videos that might be of interest to you guys, along the same lines of what you are attempting at the moment
here are the links
How to make a joule thief super high voltage fly back transformer driver - YouTube

The first one he shows how he made a joule thief with a flyback transformer

Some things you can do if you have high voltage - YouTube

and in the second, he shows what all he can do with the output of the joule thief and the flyback transformer.

It is really quite impressive, and worth a look
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Live Bookmark this Post!Google Bookmark this Post!Yahoo Bookmark this Post! share on MyspaceShare on FacebookTweet this thread
Reply With Quote
  #2141 (permalink)  
Old 03-02-2012, 08:53 AM
gyula gyula is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 719
Quote:
Originally Posted by citfta View Post
The output is pulsing DC. The electrons are flowing from left to right in the picture. As the electrons strike the other end of the arc they are heating the metal hot enough to melt it. This is the same principle which is used in electron beam welding and plasma arc cutting. I really don't think there is any cold and hot electricity in what you are doing. I have worked on industrial beam welders and very large plasma arc cutting machines. I do think it is very interesting that you can get that much power from such a small and simple circuit.

Carroll
Hi Caroll,

Last night (at another Forum) I thought of the same for the temperature difference between the electrodes and explained by the electrons "landing' on the positive electrode i.e. this needs a definite DC polarity which of course is also present in pulsed DC voltage.

Then I asked woopy if he used the HV diodes at the Sergdo circuit output and he said he did not.

So the phenomena happened in his setup with the some kHz near square wave AC pulses.

Now it occured to me there was an amplitude difference in his AC output waveform he showed in his video 2-3 days ago when he run the LED lamp test; now that he made new (200 turn) output secondary coils he has not shown the output waveform BUT in the old 500 turn case there was an asymmetry between the positive and negative amplitudes: the positive one was 200V peak from the zero crossing and the negative one was 150V peak below the zero crossing. If he has an asymmetry in waveform with the new windings then this can cause a DC shift, (a 50V bias in the previous setup) between the two electrodes, explaining some electron excess at the 'more positive' wire end.

rgds, Gyula

Last edited by gyula : 03-02-2012 at 09:58 AM. Reason: mistype correction
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Live Bookmark this Post!Google Bookmark this Post!Yahoo Bookmark this Post! share on MyspaceShare on FacebookTweet this thread
Reply With Quote
  #2142 (permalink)  
Old 03-02-2012, 02:07 PM
Dave45 Dave45 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,273
If ran to electrodes I wonder how effective this would be at splitting water.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Live Bookmark this Post!Google Bookmark this Post!Yahoo Bookmark this Post! share on MyspaceShare on FacebookTweet this thread
Reply With Quote
  #2143 (permalink)  
Old 03-02-2012, 09:14 PM
woopy woopy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 377
Hi all

thank's very much for your input and explanation.

I have tried yet 3 different toroid and different winding

As you can see on pix 1 , on the top there is a big TV yoke with the exciting circuit (joulethief part ) on one side and the 2 secondaries on the other side.
I made 12 turns on the primaries and 120 turns on the secondaries with 0.14 mm" plastic insulated copper wire.
This config works very well but needs a high power to melt steel and or create long plasma arc.

on the left part of the pix there is a TV yoke with one secondary and one secondary on each side. i would say almost the same as above.
So the TV yoke seems to be less efficient as a standard torroid as per the right toroid on the pix.

Once more it is my result and probably submit to other result from all of you.

So in summary , my accidently broken in 2 parts standard toroid is far the best. Especially in the ability to melt and create long plasma arc.

I also include the scope trace of the Standard toroid at about 12 volts input and with the max plasma arcing.
chanel 1 is the input positiv current (from the power supply) accros 1 ohm resistor. And chanel 2 is the signal probe on one of the elctrode lead wihtout grounding.
So Gyula there is effectively a strong assymetry in the AC .

i will of course study in more deepness all your proposal, but need some time to digest all the info.

good luck at all

Laurent

hope this helps




l
Attached Images
File Type: jpg serdgo-different-toroids-1.jpg (50.7 KB, 40 views)
File Type: jpg sergdo-single-toroid-trace-.jpg (24.1 KB, 23 views)
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Live Bookmark this Post!Google Bookmark this Post!Yahoo Bookmark this Post! share on MyspaceShare on FacebookTweet this thread
Reply With Quote
  #2144 (permalink)  
Old 03-02-2012, 11:26 PM
Slider2732 Slider2732 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Muskogee, Oklahoma, USA
Posts: 1,006
Building up a CRT yoke one now...but this is to be quadfilar. Worth a try eh
The original coils on some CRT's can be of different wire configurations, the one from yesterdays find had 4 filar on one side and bifilar on the other. Or, I should say, the wires were quad or paired as you take them off the rather sticky form.
The wire comes off well and the enamel is strong, just a bit alarming to unwind with that glue sticking the strands together.
So, all wire and the toroid itself have come from the same Futura 15" monitor

Thus far, i've got 150x4 on each side. Then a 3 turn Base trigger, of 2 of the same type of wire together to form a double gauge. Next is a 20 turn of the same double stranding to be the Primary.
Then again, scratch that lol..will just do the 20/20 thing as per the diagram and go straight for pure ridiculous power

How would I link up the 4 wires of each side to make it quadfilar ? that's what i'm a bit stuck on
What I might do is just connect one end to the next start, to the next end etc on both sides, then connect as per the diagram.




Last edited by Slider2732 : 03-03-2012 at 12:05 AM.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Live Bookmark this Post!Google Bookmark this Post!Yahoo Bookmark this Post! share on MyspaceShare on FacebookTweet this thread
Reply With Quote
  #2145 (permalink)  
Old 03-03-2012, 05:10 AM
jimboot jimboot is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 146
@slider Nice one Wallace! I can confirm the yokes work well to light - I have lit the LED lamp and a 25 watt 240v incandescent. About to wind another. Have not yet melted steel.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Live Bookmark this Post!Google Bookmark this Post!Yahoo Bookmark this Post! share on MyspaceShare on FacebookTweet this thread
Reply With Quote
  #2146 (permalink)  
Old 03-03-2012, 05:34 AM
Slider2732 Slider2732 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Muskogee, Oklahoma, USA
Posts: 1,006
lol@Wallace

Well hey Grommit, it runs !
I connected the winds end/start/end/start etc on each side and then connected up as per the diagram a couple of pages back.
MJE13009L transistor, 1K pot and that's it for now. Will try caps across the pot, the diode to the Base Lasersaber mod and whatever, but it works.
The main thing with this one, is that it uses the wire that comes straight off the CRT neck. Only the 2W LOA LED bulb and the pot haven't come from the monitor.
200mA draw is a bit large and this toroid sings away merrily, but have enjoyed that build.

Here's a short video of it (plus a couple of salts type batteries).
Sorry about the dirtied hands, had just taken the rest of the monitor parts and other gubbins back outside again.

1.5V mains lightbulb + Sea cell seashell battery - YouTube

Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Live Bookmark this Post!Google Bookmark this Post!Yahoo Bookmark this Post! share on MyspaceShare on FacebookTweet this thread
Reply With Quote
  #2147 (permalink)  
Old 03-03-2012, 10:03 AM
gyula gyula is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 719
Quote:
Originally Posted by woopy View Post
....
So in summary , my accidently broken in 2 parts standard toroid is far the best. Especially in the ability to melt and create long plasma arc.

I also include the scope trace of the Standard toroid at about 12 volts input and with the max plasma arcing.
chanel 1 is the input positiv current (from the power supply) accros 1 ohm resistor. And chanel 2 is the signal probe on one of the elctrode lead wihtout grounding.
So Gyula there is effectively a strong assymetry in the AC .

i will of course study in more deepness all your proposal, but need some time to digest all the info.
....
l
Hi Laurent,

It is unfortunate your LC meter got wrong, it would help in comparing the 3 different toroids you show, what the individual coils would measure. Permeability of the cores, together with the airgap sizes, which surely counts and a coil with higher L value in the transistor collector (generally) results in less current draw, of course the ON time of the transistor influences this.
Would like to ask if your broken toroid windings are distributed in the same way as your other two TV yokes? (On one half part only the secondaries, on the other half part the collector-base coils) Because in your first video on Sergdo circuit ( Amazing light with low power toroid transformer 1.wmv - YouTube ) around time 1:47-1:52 it seems to me you wound one primary and one secondary on one broken half and the other primary and the other secondary on the other half?
I think perhaps the best remedy against the asymmetry in the output waveform would be to split the collector coil into 2 x 10 turns and place 10 turns on one half and the other 10 turns onto the other half of the cores then connecting them in series aiding because the collector coil carries the highest DC peak current, the other 20 turns primary to the base carries 1/Beta times less current (Beta is the current amplification factor of the transistor, roughly Ic/Ib). Another factor for causing asymmetry could be the 'almost' uniform size of the broken toroid half parts: inductance for one secondary coil on one half part can be different than the inductance on the other half part, considering equal number of turns (reason is air gap BUT we do not have to take airgap as an enemy here because it helps against saturation). If the secondary inductances differ from each other, perhaps winding a few turns more on one half side could help reducing asymmetry too.

Seeing your latest scope shot on the asymmetry in output waveform and comparing it to the much smaller asymmetry in your above February 25 video, what is the difference: the supply voltage i.e. now you have higher input power, this may mean higher possible saturation in the cores and the operation point of the transistor can also be different. IF you watch the loaded output waveform and turn the base potmeter towards higher value: does the asymmetry improve or stay more or less the same? If it stays, try to change power supply (say lower it) and again turn the pot. And in case you find a small asymmetry "sweet operational point" and the output amplitude is small, then you would have to increase the number of turns on the two secondaries...

Good experimenting!

Greetings,
Gyula

Last edited by gyula : 03-03-2012 at 10:07 AM.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Live Bookmark this Post!Google Bookmark this Post!Yahoo Bookmark this Post! share on MyspaceShare on FacebookTweet this thread
Reply With Quote
  #2148 (permalink)  
Old 03-03-2012, 12:05 PM
Dave45 Dave45 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,273
Wind Ed's pmh under the windings.


Power the primary's with a flip flop circuit, creating an out of phase situation that will be reflected into the secondary's .

And go ou.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Live Bookmark this Post!Google Bookmark this Post!Yahoo Bookmark this Post! share on MyspaceShare on FacebookTweet this thread
Reply With Quote
  #2149 (permalink)  
Old 03-03-2012, 12:42 PM
Dave45 Dave45 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,273
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Live Bookmark this Post!Google Bookmark this Post!Yahoo Bookmark this Post! share on MyspaceShare on FacebookTweet this thread
Reply With Quote
  #2150 (permalink)  
Old 03-03-2012, 10:23 PM
woopy woopy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 377
Hi all

Ok today i decided to violate one of my own law , that is never dismantel a prototype machine , even if it does not work yet.
And this , because it can perhaps be one day ,with some more knowledge, i can get this stuff out of the drawer and with some modif , make it work finally.

But some time you have no choice and when you get a almost perfectly 1/2 x 60 mm diameter broken toroid you ask if it does not worth the work.

So i did it and dismanteled my best working toroid to try an other way and see if there is some difference.

So i wound 500 turns x 2 on one half toroid With 7 stranded litz wire (from Romero experiment ) and got 6.7 ohms DC resistance per winding.
And 50 turns x 2 on the other half of toroid with 0.4 mm copper wire.
So i got 1 to 10 ratio between the 2 toroid halves

So i got very good succes with LED lighting at around 9 volts and 0.2 amp, See scope pix
But almost no power for the steel melting . and a very noisy (hissing ) small plasma arc.

Than i decreased the Collector and base number of turns to 40 turns and than to 30 turns .

The melting was there but poor. Than i tried with the diodes bank (as per Sergdo ) and i got very powerfull continous melting , as per my previous experiment, But i coulkd not be able to get any measuremenr because, after some minutes at 12 volt and arround 500 ma (arroud 6 watt of powerfull melting )the already known winding arcing appears somewhere in the winding and .....finished for today :

Ok summary

the output of the secondaries is a verystrong assymetrical AC and seems not to depend of the winding or the separeted core vertical or horizontal.

Depending of the ratio between the primaries (joulethief part ) and the secondary, you can get a very efficient LED lighting but few steel melting.

If the above ratio is more than 1/16 , and if you use the diode as per Sergdo, you will get strong steel melting at low input power, but with very high risk of destructiv arcing in the enameled copper winding.

So for me now is to find A VERY WELL INSULATED ENAMELLED COPPER WIRE WHICH CAN HANDLE THE REALLY HIGH VOLTAGE PULSES in the secondaries.

And can somebody explain me why ( in the sergdo circuit ) the diodes increase so much the steel melting ???

hope this helps

good luck at all

Laurent
Attached Images
File Type: jpg sergdo-half-toroid-1.jpg (66.8 KB, 37 views)
File Type: jpg sergdo-half-toroid-2.jpg (31.6 KB, 34 views)
File Type: jpg sergdo-half-toroid-3.jpg (37.1 KB, 32 views)
File Type: jpg sergdo-halftotoid-on-led-at.jpg (16.2 KB, 30 views)

Last edited by woopy : 03-03-2012 at 10:28 PM.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Live Bookmark this Post!Google Bookmark this Post!Yahoo Bookmark this Post! share on MyspaceShare on FacebookTweet this thread
Reply With Quote
  #2151 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2012, 03:03 AM
Watson Watson is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 84
Theorem

One fundamental electric theorem is that the amount of current entering a node is equal to the amount of current leaving the node. In other words, electricity doesn't disappear or reappear out of nowhere*. I've wound a secondary winding onto a JT core and I have also found that if I connect two LEDs in anti-parallel (back-to-back) and connect them across this winding, one LED is brighter than the other, indicating that there is an asymmetry in the current flowing in the winding.

* Obviously this isn't applicable to an antenna, right...

Quote:
Originally Posted by woopy View Post
Hi Xee2

My question is exactly what you point out

is it a difference of the nature of energy on the output secondaries.

is it simply more or less energy on one side and less or more of the same energy on the other.

or
Are we dealing on the fact that on one side we have a "cold " or better sayd perhaps soft radiant ....energy .and on the other side a "hot " and so brutal
energy that it can MELT steel .

Is this Sergdo's winding organising a transfer of this cold overall radiant energy to a hot powerfull and usefull energy by using the plasma arc ?

youpp thinking out of the box here

am prepared for bombing attack do not worry

good luck at all

laurent
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Live Bookmark this Post!Google Bookmark this Post!Yahoo Bookmark this Post! share on MyspaceShare on FacebookTweet this thread
Reply With Quote
  #2152 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2012, 08:58 AM
gyula gyula is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 719
Hi Laurent,

Thanks for your excellent efforts and dedication.

I think if you could rewind the 2 x 400-500 turns secondaries by using insulating tape between each layer then arcing could be minimized. First check with a MegOhm meter the surface of the toroid (I know it has a bluish covering, supposed to be an insulator but just check with the measuring tips 5-10mm apart how big the resistance is, must be in the MOhm range or open circuit) and then wind the first layer of the coil, then use one layer insulator tape, then second layer of the coil and so on.
I think this would be worth testing whether arcing remains, it should not because the 500 turns/350V does not give much voltage difference within the neighboring turns BUT it can give big difference between layers, helping arc.

On ebay, there are copper wires with 600V insulation ratings but I found only rather thich ones. Perhaps among the "magnet wires" category search the High Temp ones I guess their insulation is improved voltage-wise too.
Here is another "heavy formvar" wire but I do not know its insulating properties:
34 AWG HEAVY FORMVAR MAGNET WIRE 1000 FEET | eBay

Re on your question with the diode: I think if the electrons can go one way only, due to the diode polarity (versus the AC case even if it is asymmetrical) then heat can accumulate better (as Caroll explained for the DC welding).
However, what I suddenly cannot get: why Sergdo did not use a full wave bridge? especially with a HV puffer capacitor (some hundred nF)?
As he uses the two diodes, is not one of the diodes shorted out? Willl check his video again, perhaps this is clear for you?

Thanks, Gyula
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Live Bookmark this Post!Google Bookmark this Post!Yahoo Bookmark this Post! share on MyspaceShare on FacebookTweet this thread
Reply With Quote
  #2153 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2012, 09:51 AM
gyula gyula is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 719
Quote:
Originally Posted by gyula View Post
...

As he uses the two diodes, is not one of the diodes shorted out? Willl check his video again, perhaps this is clear for you?

Hi Laurent,

I checked both Sergdo and your video on the HV diodes connection (you show it here: Amazing melting with low power transformer 1.wmv - YouTube ) and the strange thing is Sergdo placed the 'load' i.e. the melting wires across one of the diodes (across his left hand side HV diode in his video) and this is very unusual. If DC voltage is preferred for melting than a full wave diode bridge would seem desirable (Sergdo's rectification seems to be half wave only...) and as I wrote some hundred nF 2-3kV rated puffer capacitor would be also good across the bridge output. You could test this with even the 1N4007 diodes by putting at least two in series in each diode place inside the FWB, I know these diodes are not so good in the kHz range but for a quick test they would serve. A better, faster diode is the also 1000V / 1A rated UF4007 (UF= Ultra Fast).

rgds, Gyula

Last edited by gyula : 03-04-2012 at 09:53 AM.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Live Bookmark this Post!Google Bookmark this Post!Yahoo Bookmark this Post! share on MyspaceShare on FacebookTweet this thread
Reply With Quote
  #2154 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2012, 01:13 PM
boguslaw's Avatar
boguslaw boguslaw is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,119
I don't get it .. nobody see that it's exactly what Don Smith tabletop device had on output ! Woopy, just measure average voltage after diodes, and try to ground to Earth ground (good one) via varistor and all whan is needed is a huge capacitance capacitor rated to that voltage. The of course power inverter like Don Smith used. I think 100-200W at least could be possible from that small toroid
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Live Bookmark this Post!Google Bookmark this Post!Yahoo Bookmark this Post! share on MyspaceShare on FacebookTweet this thread
Reply With Quote
  #2155 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2012, 01:21 PM
Dave45 Dave45 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,273
Oscillating the primary's
TROS alt-lighting V - "transformer" - YouTube
do this with woopy's coil
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Live Bookmark this Post!Google Bookmark this Post!Yahoo Bookmark this Post! share on MyspaceShare on FacebookTweet this thread
Reply With Quote
  #2156 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2012, 01:45 PM
Dave45 Dave45 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,273
Quote:
Originally Posted by boguslaw View Post
I don't get it .. nobody see that it's exactly what Don Smith tabletop device had on output ! Woopy, just measure average voltage after diodes, and try to ground to Earth ground (good one) via varistor and all whan is needed is a huge capacitance capacitor rated to that voltage. The of course power inverter like Don Smith used. I think 100-200W at least could be possible from that small toroid
Sandwich two neo's between the toroid halves

Need another bobbin then I'll start winding the secondary's
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Live Bookmark this Post!Google Bookmark this Post!Yahoo Bookmark this Post! share on MyspaceShare on FacebookTweet this thread
Reply With Quote
  #2157 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2012, 01:48 PM
xee2 xee2 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 580
Quote:
Originally Posted by woopy View Post

And can somebody explain me why ( in the sergdo circuit ) the diodes increase so much the steel melting ???
That is a very good question. The diodes shorted by the melting wire do not seem to add anything to the circuit since theoretically there would never be any current flowing through them. That is what got me interested in this circuit. If you have not already done so, see if there is a difference between when using just the string of diodes in series with the melting wire and when using both strings of diodes. This is a real puzzle.

As for the arcing, this can be prevented if you keep the wires at the input side of the inductor away from the wires at the output side of the inductor. The voltage between adjacent wires is low, the high voltage is between wires at the ends of the inductor. I wind layered coils in sections, with a bunch of layers in each section, so that the voltage is divided by the multiple sections. The sections do not have to be physically separated, they can be wound next to each other. Use at least three sections so that the input side section wires are separated from the output side section wires by the middle section.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Live Bookmark this Post!Google Bookmark this Post!Yahoo Bookmark this Post! share on MyspaceShare on FacebookTweet this thread
Reply With Quote
  #2158 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2012, 01:56 PM
woopy woopy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 377
hi all

yes this morning i rewound the 2 x 500 turns 0.3 mm enameled copper wire, with an insulation with masking tape between each layers ( long and boring job )

but well worth (thank's Gyula). the primaries are always 20 turns 0.4 mm.

And i got at once the very efficient steelmelting. I melt the 0.3 mm diameter steel (ferromagnetic ) with arround 5 watt easily.

See pix of the toroid and circuitery and a scope shot during the melting.(channel 1 input current across 1 ohm resistor, channel 2 = the sensing probe is not directly connected to the melting leads because the voltage is far above my scope possibility )

I confirm that the diodes is needed in this config to get a nice continouus melting with nice sparkling of metal. And without the diodes i only get a dizzling blue plasma arc (seemly cold on the both ends )

Can not elaborate more today.

hi Boguslaw

Can you draw your meaning please.

hi Dave

Will study the question thank's

good luck at all

Laurent
So far no arcing up to 10 volt input
Attached Images
File Type: jpg sergdo-toroid--500-turns-2.jpg (15.8 KB, 41 views)
File Type: jpg sergdo-toroid-500-turns-sco.jpg (14.4 KB, 27 views)
File Type: jpg sergdo-toroid--500-turns-in.jpg (21.7 KB, 32 views)
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Live Bookmark this Post!Google Bookmark this Post!Yahoo Bookmark this Post! share on MyspaceShare on FacebookTweet this thread
Reply With Quote
  #2159 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2012, 02:09 PM
xee2 xee2 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 580
Quote:
Originally Posted by boguslaw View Post
I don't get it .. nobody see that it's exactly what Don Smith tabletop device had on output ! Woopy, just measure average voltage after diodes, and try to ground to Earth ground (good one) via varistor and all whan is needed is a huge capacitance capacitor rated to that voltage. The of course power inverter like Don Smith used. I think 100-200W at least could be possible from that small toroid
Don Smith circuits do not work. Many people have replicated them and none of them produced more energy out than was put in. Charging a capacitor does not increase energy, it just stores up energy put in over a long time and releases it in a short time. The energy out is not greater than the energy in, it just has a higher current because it is being transferred in a shorter time.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Live Bookmark this Post!Google Bookmark this Post!Yahoo Bookmark this Post! share on MyspaceShare on FacebookTweet this thread
Reply With Quote
  #2160 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2012, 02:24 PM
broli broli is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 529
What would happen if you have two systems like these back to back, in order to reduce the high voltage to a low voltage again. With a bridge rectifier and cap energy output can be easily measured across a load.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Live Bookmark this Post!Google Bookmark this Post!Yahoo Bookmark this Post! share on MyspaceShare on FacebookTweet this thread
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT. The time now is 06:02 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.0.0 RC8
2007 Copyright ? Energetic Forum? A Non Profit Corporation - All Rights Reserved