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  #1  
Old 10-29-2009, 10:08 PM
baroutologos baroutologos is offline
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Lead/Acid to Alcaline/Lead battery conversion - useful?

I have been stimulated by SL3 and searched a bit the Net about lead acid batteries conversion to alcaline electrolyte based ones.

Claims range from moderate to extraordinary results. Please post your experience here.

Furthermore, the pulse charging/ decharging behaviour of the converted batteries is to be discussed here.

An initial well known link to ponder Sepp Hasslberger: How to convert a Lead Acid Battery into an Alkaline Battery

Also see Bedini's vid here BatteryForming_2008_04_25_16_16_47.wmv

Any experience? Does it worth it?

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  #2  
Old 10-29-2009, 10:17 PM
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IMO it would be worth trying. Alkaline electrolyte is much easier to make (with restricted supplies) than acid one. Not mentioning being safer to handle. I use to make my own at one time. I would much prefer few gallons of alum water spilled than sulfuric acid - if something goes wrong .


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Old 10-29-2009, 11:02 PM
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I bought some alum a few weeks back to do some experimenting with this but i havnt started yet. You should use distilled water to mix it with. Ive seen John Bs link but i hadnt seen that other one, thanks for posting it. Im thinking it will be important to get the proper ratio of alum to water, actually i think we should really study ph level. We are switching from an acid to a base. Battery acid has a ph of around 0. Distilled water is neutral at 7. So our base should be around 14 if my logic is correct, which it very well may be wrong Scroll down this link to find the ph scale
pH - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Looks like alum is not going to get near 14, but im not sure, i couldnt find the ph level of it. Sodium hydroxide gets up there though But i guess we are wanting to stick with the alum. I guess ill try and find time to fill one of my batterys with it and see what happens, i have many discarded batterys laying around to play with.
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Old 10-29-2009, 11:12 PM
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good info in this thread...

Making batteries safer...
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Old 10-30-2009, 01:46 AM
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Thanks seph

Good thread to point people to.

I am part of a yahoo group that does this and other electrolites. Battery conversions.

I have one converted battery still working but only has a top voltage of 11.80 However it does give me about 15 amp hours of work. Others have been much more sucessful with this.

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Old 10-30-2009, 03:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cody View Post
Battery acid has a ph of around 0. Distilled water is neutral at 7. So our base should be around 14 if my logic is correct
I don't think that is the real pH, I buy sulfuric acid for battery once, and it don't melt steel. That is too high and too dangerous. I think go 10 (starts of skin irittating), then 12 if not enough. At 14, alkaline will burn skin on touch, can blind eyes too. I don't think Alum will ever go near that number.

Edit:
Just reading the the other thread and seeing that the Alum formula do not have Hydrogen. It is safer. And I think the pH may be deceiving. Just use concentration.
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Old 10-30-2009, 09:43 AM
baroutologos baroutologos is offline
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Thanks Seph for the thread in this forum. I was not aware of that.

By the way, as i see it, alcaline or alum/lead based batteries offer a possibility of a method reclaiming old lead/acid ones. (not damaged ones)

By the way, it is understood that those type of batteries, once created are almost useless. They have to undergo severe charging / discharging process in order to have comparable results (or some claim better) than standard lead/acid batteries.

This sound like improving or even conditioning. Maybe they give better COP with pulsers? who knows..


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Old 10-30-2009, 04:09 PM
cody cody is offline
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Ok, the first major thing it want to clear up:
Alum, at least the stuff everyone has been using(from the grocery store) is not a base, its an ACID. Mix a little with water and pour it on some baking soda and you will have your proof for that one. So this is not an alkaline battery that were making, its just another acid battery. So this makes me wonder, why alum, why not vinegar.

Anyways, i found some time to play around with this last night. I wanted to start with a really bad battery; it was an old 9 ah motorcycle battery, they are notorious for going bad over the winter. It was sitting at 2.11V. I dumped out all the acid and did several flushes of the cell chambers to get rid of all the acid and debris. There was a lot of crud that came out of that battery; it was dark gray powdery looking junk. I mixed my solution at 1 cup water to 1 tablespoon alum. It was sitting at 1 something volts at this point. I then hooked it up to the sg to charge and the voltage shot up to around 14v, but it was just a surface charge, but the battery did sit at a higher voltage after that, but it didnt appear to have any capacity. The scope shot didnt look good, it was just a big spike, no h bridge. Im thinking all the junk that came out might have been the paste. At that point i decided to try charging it off straight dc from a 24v battery. I ran some short charge/load tests with encouraging results. After every timed charge, the battery gained a slight amount of capacitance when loaded. Very similiar to what bedini was doing on that video. But i think it will take a lot of cycles to see any useable results from the battery. Ive got it back on the sg for now.
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Old 10-30-2009, 04:47 PM
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More good news. At first the sg didnt appear to do anything to the battery, but then i did my dc charging, which did slightly charge it. After the dc, i put it back on the sg to see if it might work now. The answer is yes After 10 min on the sg, i did some more load tests with the dc again. Doing the same tests as before i was able to load the battery almost three times longer Granted its still such a small amount of power we are talking about here that its still of no real use, but still, it is improving. The wave form on the sg also got better.

So if you put alum in a junk battery and it wont take a charge from a bedini circuit, give it a charge with some regular dc for a while, then stick it on the bedini.
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Old 10-30-2009, 06:27 PM
baroutologos baroutologos is offline
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Thanks Cody for feedback.

Yes indeed the normal alum is acidic in solution. However there have been (claimed) successful recoveries with silicate alums or even NaOH or KOH solutions.

Regarding performances for best performance for pulse charging could be
1) type of electrolyte solution composion
2) % solution
3) Times cycled
4) go figure...

Typically, it is said that at 10 or max 20 cycles you must have come near or above at original new battery specs...

i am gonna try it myself also, should work allow

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Old 10-30-2009, 07:39 PM
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Yes i believe your right. I really dont think the alum has anything special to do with it. I think a lot of it was just cleaning out all the junk that had collected in the cells, putting in new solution(which may as well be new sulfuric acid) and then doing the charge/discharge conditioning. Ive left my battery on the sg all day so far and it is continuing to improve. Im positive i would be doing much better if i started with a better battery. My wave form continues to get better and i believe i should have a standard h wave before to long, which means its taking a charge better and better. Not sure how much better the pulse charging is, but it does appear to have significantly improved the battery. But i have no hard evidence on that. Its possible dc would have done just as well, i dont really have a good dc charging setup, the wall battery charger wont even charge it because of the circuitry and the voltage being to low on the battery. I know jetijs has some good graphs showing pulse charging increasing battery capacity, so i believe its true.
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Old 10-30-2009, 10:34 PM
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Quote:
I think a lot of it was just cleaning out all the junk that had collected in the cells, putting in new solution(which may as well be new sulfuric acid) and then doing the charge/discharge conditioning.
That is the case most of time. The salivation build on the bottom of the battery like MUCK then shorts the plates out. Continuing to charge a battery that is shorted will heat and warp the plates. The hot acid also promotes the warping.
This was one of the reasons the old timers used glass for casing. They could monitor the state of the battery better and clean them out when needed. The railroad used them alot.

Matt
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  #13  
Old 10-31-2009, 03:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cody View Post
Ok, the first major thing it want to clear up:
Alum, at least the stuff everyone has been using(from the grocery store) is not a base, its an ACID.
I think it should be called salt. Acid is molecule which has H+, alkaline is molecule which has OH-. Without both, it is salt.

Anyone with chemical experience please explain what happen if we react alum with electrolysis. What will occur in positive terminal and what will occur in negative terminal. My take:

2 Al(s) + 2 KOH(aq) + 4 H2SO4 +10 H2O(l) <-> 2 KAl(SO4)2•12H2O(s) + 3 H2(g)

I think charging (electrolysis) process move the balance to the left, while discharging will move the balance to the right. We will have alkaline on one terminal and acid on other terminal.
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Old 10-31-2009, 03:35 AM
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suchayo,

You are right, i hadnt looked at the formula. It does indeed appear to be a salt However its a salt with a low ph like an acid. Just starting my chem classes and have a long way to go, wish i knew more on it. I wonder if these batteries will have the same problem as regular sulphuric acid batteries, if theres no sulfuric acid, then the plates cant sulfate right? Maybe we will get a whole new problem of some sort of alum collecting on the plates Or maybe not, dont really know.
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Old 10-31-2009, 03:52 AM
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I am not sure if it has low pH.

I wonder if we add KOH or NaOH and some aluminum into the battery acid, it will convert to alum too. Notice the KOH and H2SO4 in the left of the equation. KOH is alkaline, H2SO4 is sulphuric acid used in lead acid battery.

Don't use baking soda though, it produce dangerous gas.
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Old 10-31-2009, 05:38 AM
cody cody is offline
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Hmm... well i think a ph tester strip could solve that pretty easily. It defiantly reacts with baking soda, which would suggest its acidic or lower ph than 7. Are you sure that the formula you have is the same for the alum you buy in the grocery store? It appears to me that there may be a couple different products going under the name alum.
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Old 10-31-2009, 12:34 PM
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To mess around further with the Term Alum.

Quote:
It is sodium aluminum silicate, chemically speaking. Also goes by sodium aluminosilicate, aluminium sodium silicate; sodium silicoaluminate; silicic acid, etc. For accuracy use the proper catalog numbers. CAS # 1344-00-9, GB 12493-90(02.002); INS 554; GRAS (GRAS means Generally Recognized As Safe) FDA 182.2727, (1994) If you want more complete chemical info, everything possible to know about this substance, you can download it here:
I found for Alum that at Wikipedia,
and i like the Crystals from it :P.

The Term silicate is often used at chemistry for this Grain form,
how the Powder appears, or how it is, but not, that it is another substance.

i did buy now in my local Drugstore Potassium alum and Natron.
From the Link above he mention, that the Numbes for this alum is E-554, what i got is E-552.
I think it do pretty match, and what i read at the Descriptions,
both can be used for a styptic shaving pencil.

I got an old Lead Acid, what dont take really Charge right now,
its resting at 2,8V i got it with 12V, but it did not take any charge again,
it was standing a long time around.


As first, i decharge it right now with a 10W Bulb, drain down the Fluid in there.
Then i want to flush it with destilled Water and Natron, to clean the plates.

Destilled Water, because when you use normal Water, the Minerals in it
will do a hard association with the Lead, and jam the Lead.
I even dont know, if there is a Way, to fix that, when you once filled normal Water into a Batterie,
and the Lead did do such a connection with the Minerals,
but mainly, it just dont take charge anymore.

Then further, i drain it again, and refill it with the Mix with my E-552 and destilled Water, i think the Ratio was 4 Oz to 40OZ, so a Ratio from 1:10?
Or 4to64, what would be a Ratio of 1:16.
I guess, i will try the higher concentration, and will see, what will happen.
I tell later, what did happen.
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Old 10-31-2009, 11:52 PM
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Wanted to get some scope shots up of the charging and how the battery has been improving. I wish i had taken a picture when i first started charging it, it was real bad. Anyway, im sure some of you have seen similar shots if you have charged junk battery's with your bedinis. Going down the pictures you will see the progression of the battery getting better and accepting the charge.



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Old 11-02-2009, 08:13 PM
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Hi
After filling the Batterie with 1Ltr/2 egg spoon backing Soda, (few hours between) i did flush it 2 Times with dist Water.
I did put in the Potassium alum in, and it did take a charge again.
Before it did stuck at 4V/0,3Ah after a first try i could charge it to 7V 1,5Ah.
But the Batterie seems damaged, there did fall some lead out, as i did clean it,
so its maybe not the best anymore.
At all, i will say it worked, that it did take more charge as before.
I recharge it few times more, to see, if it can go better, even with the damaged Cells.

Someone else mentioned, with potassium the Batteries would faster self-discharge, they only use sodium.
But someone from my Drugstore said, its actually at the same periodic system of elements, just some higher, it shouldnt be a big different.
Something else, potassium has a higher potential (-2,9V),
so not sure, wich one is better.
But they seems have anyway only potassiumalum to sell,
i guess, i stay by it for now.

_Edit_
New Status after discharging with a 10W Bulb and recharging 7,3V 1,92Ah
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Old 11-02-2009, 08:58 PM
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Joit,
What are you charging with?
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Old 11-02-2009, 09:14 PM
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12V/61Ah Lead Acid with my lately made Coil on a 555Timer, pulsed even.
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Old 11-02-2009, 11:03 PM
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Joit,
You may consider charging it with straight dc for just a little while. When i did this it greatly improved my pulse charging afterward. You may not need it, but it worked good for me
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Old 11-03-2009, 12:12 AM
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Ok thanks Cody,
i did read something similar at the Page, and did do that also a bit,
but it didnt do much different. Seems the Batterie got a Problem, not me.
But i will try it again.
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Old 11-03-2009, 01:18 AM
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RE: Alum...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joit View Post
Ok thanks Cody,
i did read something similar at the Page, and did do that also a bit,
but it didnt do much different. Seems the Batterie got a Problem, not me.
But i will try it again.
Not all Alum is created equal...

There are several types of alum out there, the one that John bedini uses works, the American spice company type works, but I have tried other alum from other sources with very poor results.

I am finding rinsing with baking soda is not needed. As well, it is very good to rinse the batteries but use rain water to do so, I even turn them upside down to get even more gunk out.

Also realize... Alum batteries have a different discharge curve. They just are not your typical battery.
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Old 11-03-2009, 01:33 AM
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I have experimented with a converted golf cart battery Trojan T-1275.

The battery did regain most of its 120ahr capacity but with several severe issues

1. Low Charge Efficiency
2. Rapid Self discharge
3. Lower voltage its between 10.5-11.8v finished

The way the battery behaves it would work fine as a low current battery but for high amp draws it really droops in voltage.

All in all its interesting that it works but it does not have desirable characteristics for my EV application. And yes I did run it through dozens of cycles.

Cheers
Ryan
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Old 11-03-2009, 08:02 PM
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@theremart

I only switch now between sodium and potassium alum,
Potassium alluminium silicate shall be an extract from the s.a. sulfate
This chemical Names are fingerbreakers.

Its pretty close at the Chemical table, so i dont think there is to much different.
And heck, i dont have a Way to get American Sauce by me at Europe.
I only have this 2 Choices, what i can use, and i will see, wich one is good.
And right, flushing them with soda is maybe not really needed.

I did do it, because it was anyway a very old and not-the-best at all Batterie.
It did foam 15 Mins, so i thought, it cant hurt, the Cells even didnt look very bright.
But Rainwater, hum, i dont know, i am scared for that.
Distilled Water cost for me right now 5 Ltr 2 . I think i can pay that.
But when the Batterie did work, i think too, its not really neccessary,
even, it is some extra Effort, to do this.

rmay635703 can you tell, wich Alum you did use for this, as you did it?
Did your Batterie work before, as you did refill it?
I can figure, that sometimes do break the Plates inside very quick,
and make a Short, or some Mud can jam the Plates,
when you empty the Batterie.
Over how much Time did your Batterie discharge?

I did disconnect the Batterie now since 6 Hours and watch the Voltage and Ah,
to see, if it do discharge over a Time.

But else, i think, it should work again, when you only refill it again with distilled Water.
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Old 11-04-2009, 08:22 PM
Joit Joit is offline
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Today i saw a selfdischarge at the Batterie, 0,05 Volts at 6Hours,
not sure, if its the Batterie or the Mix.
Now i dropped the half out, and did refill it with dist Water,
that i get an other Ratio, maybe 1:20.
Now, the Batterie even takes some better charge, going up to 8,3V pulsed DC over a Rectifier (-,+).
I will see, if it loose tommorow again charge, and if, i will make an other Ratio again,
maybe 1:30.
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Old 11-05-2009, 04:53 AM
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I tried the opposite yesterday, adding acid to the battery. It raised voltage after being charged, but after a night rest it's standing voltage is lower than before I add acid. Adding acid is is not good then.
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Old 11-05-2009, 11:42 AM
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I also today converted my small 6Ah, BOSCH flooded ce;lls type battery to alum.
I purchased alum from a chemical lab supply store. Chemical type is potasium alumunum sulfate or KAl(SO4)2.

I discharged ,my battery under a 5watt load and measure 2 hours before reacing 7 volts. This battery has suffered much from experimenting and pulse charging. Before convertion i charged battery to almost max value.

Nevertheless, emptied the battery of old electrolyte and rinsed it with destilled water 3-4 times. I added the new solution of 100gr per 1000ml water and filled the cells.
Starting voltage was 12,05. i now discharge the battery to take measurements before i start cycling under the new electrolyte.
I will update info and post photo.

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Old 11-06-2009, 02:07 AM
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Slightly OT

I talked to my car repair place next to work today. They say they can't give me batts because EPA keeps track. Michelin comes in and takes old batts to reuse. For every batts they sell Michelin requires old batt back.

Soooo, where can I get batts that are used or dead and be legal?

Frustrated but I understand. Them being place of business. But surely, private use?

David

Edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by baroutologos View Post
I also today converted my small 6Ah, BOSCH flooded ce;lls type battery to alum.
I purchased alum from a chemical lab supply store. Chemical type is potasium alumunum sulfate or KAl(SO4)2.

Nevertheless, emptied the battery of old electrolyte and rinsed it with destilled water 3-4 times. I added the new solution of 100gr per 1000ml water and filled the cells.
Starting voltage was 12,05. i now discharge the battery to take measurements before i start cycling under the new electrolyte.
I will update info and post photo.

Baroutologos
See EPA here is Asmerica would have fit and you got to jail if they caught you doing that.
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