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Renewable Energy Discussion on various alternative energy, renewable energy, & free energy technologies. Also any discussion about the environment, global warming, and other related topics are welcome here.

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Old 10-28-2009, 01:38 AM
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Inquorate Inquorate is offline
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Spontaneous charging radiantly charged capacitor research group

YouTube - capacitor spontaneously filling with sec 15-3 turned off

YouTube - StandingCaps

the purpose of this thread is to share systems that create a conditioned capacitor that regains standing voltage once discharged, with the ultimate aim of perhaps developing a self sustaining or cop > 1 system that does useful work.

No unfounded criticisms, and experimenters of principles being explored will take seniority in the thread, which means fulfilling the responsibility of explaining their findings with those that wish to duplicate.

Love and light
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Old 10-28-2009, 03:01 AM
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What I noticed so far

The capacitor has to be fully discharged to start building voltage again; partial discharge doesn't trigger the recharge.

It may be that the quicker the discharge, the more the voltage will spring back to close to previous value.

So, a direct short through a primary that saturates exactly to capacity (perhaps using an scr) will cause the primary self charging capacitor to begin recharging. It may not be beneficial to have the cap and primary coil remain connected as part of a tank circuit.

a secondary coil could recover the energy from primary recharging capacitor's (PRC) discharge, perhaps charging a battery.

If the PRC fails to develop sufficient voltage to trigger scr ( scr triggers mechanical switch?), a radiant energy circuit kicks in (using monostable single shot 555 circuit that resets countdown on each scr discharge) and tops up the PRC.

I hope people join in this research.
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Old 10-28-2009, 03:05 AM
Matthew Jones Matthew Jones is offline
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This is the monopole I charge the caps with.

Heres a movie of it.

It nothing real great but it does have an effect on capaictors thats pretty good.

Cheers
Matt
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Old 10-28-2009, 04:00 AM
gotoluc gotoluc is offline
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Thanks guys for starting this new topic

I saw your new video Matt and have a few question.

You charge the the three 100v rated 1000uf caps in series which will have a rating of 300v and around 333uf connected in series if I'm not mistaken.
It looks like you've been charging them to a maximum of 212v with your dual coil Energizer.

Question 1:

To what voltage will the caps recover to if you discharge them from the 212v and don't re-connect them to the energizer output?

Question 2:

If you use new capacitors that have not been charge by your energizer and do the same test, to what voltage will they recover to?

Thanks guys for taking the time to share your research and work

Luc
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Old 10-28-2009, 04:13 AM
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Gotoluc

I was using a new capacitor, ran it off the avramenko plug of the sec and charged - discharged (thru the lightbulb, ie slowly) less than 20 times before noticing the effect.

My cap was 100uf 100v, and would recover c25 volts.

Effect may be higher if PRC is disruptively discharged though.

Also, the similarity between my setup and matt's is that each radiant pulser conditions both plates of the capacitor, with a positive and a negative pulse.

Love and light
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Old 10-28-2009, 04:27 AM
gotoluc gotoluc is offline
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Just saw your video Inquorate

Shows a similar effect

It reminds me of a test that I did with Dr. Stiffler's first SEC connected to my HHO cell. I could drain the water from the cell and let it dry and refill it with new water and it would still show a charge of 14vdc or more.

Thanks for sharing mate

Luc

Last edited by gotoluc : 10-28-2009 at 07:53 PM.
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Old 10-28-2009, 08:25 AM
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400uF, not 100uf

I mis posted earlier, the capacitor I used is one of these

400uF 100V Non-Polarised Electrolytic Capacitor - Jaycar Electronics

Love and light
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Old 10-28-2009, 08:38 AM
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Conversation with ren

I was having a conversation with ren yesterday, discussing the use of an scr to dump a radiantly charged cap (bedini) into a battery, and how if the cap is more than 100uf, the scr won't turn off after the first trigger.

Maybe it's because it never gets to zero volts, and is trying to recharge...

Just a thought
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Old 10-28-2009, 09:36 AM
Matthew Jones Matthew Jones is offline
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Quote:
Question 1:
To what voltage will the caps recover to if you discharge them from the 212v and don't re-connect them to the energizer output?
They vary a bit but in the daytime they usually get back up to around 25 -40 volt. If you leave the meters hooked up they won't go over 10. And was raining yesterday all day and I noticed they wouldn't go over 15. But this morning they are at 31. So its kinda off a funny thing.

Quote:
Question 2:
If you use new capacitors that have not been charge by your energizer and do the same test, to what voltage will they recover to?
The same they pretty quickly take to it. As far as I can tell.
I haven't experimented with it much I just discharges the caps when my nephew comes over. He Says" OOhh that scare the mess out of me, uncle Matt, Do IT again!!!"
I have been making a point of showing him stuff for the last 3 years or so. Blue spark and green sparks have stuck with him.


I battery tested the charger and it doesn't do much over 60 percent. I know its just timing though but I am clueless how to go any further with it.
The thing was an accident to start out with.
The motor was intended to be a switching mechanism for Tesla Switch.

Cheers
Matt
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Old 10-28-2009, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inquorate View Post
I was having a conversation with ren yesterday, discussing the use of an scr to dump a radiantly charged cap (bedini) into a battery, and how if the cap is more than 100uf, the scr won't turn off after the first trigger.

Maybe it's because it never gets to zero volts, and is trying to recharge...

Just a thought
It might very well be. I did notice that as well. I had to reduce cap value down to single uF, otherwise SCR remained on, regardless of frequency and duty cycle. It took me a few days to figure out At first I thought that cap discharge is too slow and cap doesn't drain before the next pulse but that's not the case. They seem to re bounce after being discharged. Good point


Vtech
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Old 10-28-2009, 02:03 PM
gotoluc gotoluc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Jones View Post
They vary a bit but in the daytime they usually get back up to around 25 -40 volt. If you leave the meters hooked up they won't go over 10. And was raining yesterday all day and I noticed they wouldn't go over 15. But this morning they are at 31. So its kinda off a funny thing.

Cheers
Matt

Thanks for the replies Matt

I guess in a humid conditions (rain) the environment becomes resistive to a capacitors. I wonder how they would perform under a vacuum

Thanks for sharing

Luc
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Old 10-28-2009, 03:21 PM
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Bedini's video on Capacitor charge..

As requested on your you tube video, this video here is the one is where Bedini talks about caps regaining their charge ->

INSIDE RADIANT ENERGY - DVD#6

It is in passing, but he does mention it. at 31.06 in the video..

and 36.5

Last edited by theremart : 10-28-2009 at 03:25 PM.
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Old 10-28-2009, 04:51 PM
cody cody is offline
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the process, just what is going on here

This is an interesting effect, and obviously it is a real effect. I just wanted to start some discussion about what is actually going on to cause this effect. Im proposing that a physical change is occurring on the capacitor plates. John Bedini has a great vid showing the physical change that occures on battery plates using the radiant charging method, look here.

BatteryForming_2008_04_25_16_16_47.wmv

I believe the same thing is occurring on the aluminum plates of the capacitor. I do know that aluminum can be conditioned in certain ways with electricity, look here:

YouTube - hho - 120V Aluminum Rectifier PART 1
YouTube - hho - 120V Aluminum Rectifier PART 2
YouTube - hho - 120V Aluminum Rectifier PART 3

There he was using ac to condition the plates, but i think it is obvious that pulsed dc would effect the plates as well.

So what is it about this physical change that is so special. John B says that one plate forms a crystaline structure and the other is like an oxide, sounds like a semiconductor to me, a diode that is. We do have semiconductors that can harvest light waves(solor panels). Would it be so hard to believe that maybe we are making a semiconductor that is harvesting radiant energy waves?
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Old 10-28-2009, 06:58 PM
gotoluc gotoluc is offline
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Thanks cody for posting John Bedini's demonstration. Never seen this video before.

I looked at it a few times as it's very interesting. However I wasn't able to use any references for comparing energy in his battery to energy if could supply. Too bad John didn't just connect the bulb to the power supply to show how much power it drew at 3 volts to help confirm his 1 unit of power in for 3 units of power out claim. The second time he charged his battery we can see it drew a little over 2 amps at 3 volts. I'm not sure how many amps a 3 volt flash light bulb like he used would draw .

Also, it is unclear if he is growing the crystal surface in regular battery acid or is it done in the Alkaline water solution?

Interesting stuff none the less Thanks for sharing

Luc
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Old 10-28-2009, 07:43 PM
DrStiffler DrStiffler is offline
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Light Bulbs

Using a light bulb for any kind of testing is totally subjective because of their non-linear response curve. As the bulb conducts it heats and the resistance increases, this means that there is a infinite number of curves that can apply to the measurement result. The human eye is worse that the ear for discerning incremental changes.

A capacitor has what I will call 'Dielectric Retention', 'Dielectric Storage' if you prefer, but what this says is that a capacitor will not totally discharge at first pass. You discharge and then let it sit a few seconds and the 'stored' charges migrates back out of the dielectric and appears as the cap is charging itself of this so called radiate energy is charging it. This is not he case. Even if the cap is direct shorted with a 0 ohm short, it will recover some energy from the dielectric when the short is removed.

In 44 years of electronics I have never seen a capacitor gain charge from what is a fraction of the initial charge it received. What is being seen is wrong in assumption. Through proper power measurement it is found that this pseudo charge is only a portion of the original charge (charges) that have not been properly dissipated.

Much confusion exists here and I feel that it is normally the result of improper measurement and mathematical assessment.
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Old 10-28-2009, 08:31 PM
gotoluc gotoluc is offline
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I agree with Dr. Stiffler that a logical testing approach is needed.

To make a convincing experiment I would suggest one would need 2 sets of identical capacitors, a DPDT switch, two volt meters to monitor each set of caps and also a capacitance meter to measure each set prior to the test to show the cap uf value.

Charge both banks to the same voltage but obviously one with radiant and conditioned caps and the other set with dc. Flip the DPDT switch so both short together and release it. If one set is recovering more or faster then the other (hopefully the conditioned caps) then we would have something more solid to work from.

Would you be up to the task Matt or anyone else?

Luc
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Old 10-28-2009, 10:55 PM
Matthew Jones Matthew Jones is offline
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Quote:
originally posted by DrStiffler
Much confusion exists here and I feel that it is normally the result of improper measurement and mathematical assessment.
Not to be a smart ass or anything but do you think could give us a little more enlightenment. I mean the meter says 40 volt, after an hour so. Sparks fly when shorted. Thats the only claim made.... And partially shown in the video. Other have experienced this as well. The caps were charged from monopole, inductive,transient and/or radiant spikes (You choose the name)

It is possible that the electrolyte is flooded with energy but... how many times is it going to recharge a fair amount before it is not flooded? LOL
And why does it charge better in the day than at night, better when its dry then when its wet...

And with all this what is "Proper Measurement" and what would a "Mathematical Assessment" consist of.
Please poor it on us, I would very much like some direction, but...
I can hardly see the point of making a statement at all to this context if you are not going to fill in the details.

Naa we gotta ask for enlightenment..No one is willing to fill in a little detail in an "Open Source" community.

No offense intended.

Quote:
Charge both banks to the same voltage but obviously one with radiant and conditioned caps and the other set with dc. Flip the DPDT switch so both short together and release it. If one set is recovering more or faster then the other (hopefully the conditioned caps) then we would have something more solid to work from.
It not fair. The radiant side outputs (At the diode) 96+- volts on the meter at .5 amp. So you would have to charge the caps at that same rate with DC. Or else one cap would have 200 + volt and the other would have 12.

The outcome of the test though is as expected on 2 separate caps charged then discharged through 2 relays on one switch. The DC one recharged to .13, the radiant charged to 12.47 in one minutes time.

Like I said not fair. You would need to step up the DC voltage, I can't do that to that level off the top of my head.

Matt
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Old 10-28-2009, 11:30 PM
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I'll have a crack at it thisafternoon

And I'll try get the voltages level. I expect there to be a difference, I've only seen spontaneous recharging with the radiantly charged caps - I first came across it by touching the capacitor when it had been disconnected. I've come across it also when I received a shock from my spark gap hv magnetic diode, which had been disconnected from the circuit for about a minute. No caps there.

But, in the interest of the scientific approach, I'll impose restrictions on the variables.

Love and light
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Old 10-29-2009, 12:42 AM
barbosi barbosi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inquorate View Post
Maybe it's because it never gets to zero volts, and is trying to recharge...
A SCR turns off when current through it is zero (not voltage!!!). From here you may find convenient to change the phase (U vs I) and at resonance having 90 degrees, you could turn off the SCR while voltage is max.
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Old 10-29-2009, 01:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrStiffler View Post
Even if the cap is direct shorted with a 0 ohm short, it will recover some energy from the dielectric when the short is removed.
If the HV make the capacitor retain charge, this explain why battery charged with spike without current and low voltage DC with current at the same moment (radiant characteristic) has more capacity than battery charged only with low voltage DC. The HV part of radiant make the charge hold longer just as what the HV do to capacitor. A battery is sort of bigger version of capacitor isn't it? At least some of my failed battery has become capacitor where it only store voltage but not current.

I think even if it is explainable with conventional physics, the methode to charge with both no current HV and low current LV is never been applied before with very simple trick by switching off coil current. I guess this is the reason for h wave. The spike make the charge to retain longer, the current force the battery to store usefull electricity.
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Old 10-29-2009, 03:07 AM
gotoluc gotoluc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Jones View Post
It not fair. The radiant side outputs (At the diode) 96+- volts on the meter at .5 amp. So you would have to charge the caps at that same rate with DC. Or else one cap would have 200 + volt and the other would have 12.

The outcome of the test though is as expected on 2 separate caps charged then discharged through 2 relays on one switch. The DC one recharged to .13, the radiant charged to 12.47 in one minutes time.

Like I said not fair. You would need to step up the DC voltage, I can't do that to that level off the top of my head.

Matt
Hi Matt,

I'm sorry but I don't understand what you are trying to explain to me

I feel I'm a fair individual and try to find fair ways to do experiments.

Sorry my test suggestion is causing you grief

Luc
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Old 10-29-2009, 04:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gotoluc View Post
Hi Matt,

I'm sorry but I don't understand what you are trying to explain to me
I think he means that achieving same voltage for both radiant and normal DC is hard. Even when we measure 1V on radiant output by limiting input current it may not be the actual spike voltage, at 96+V by analog metering the spike may exceed scope limit. Getting DC at 1000+V is hard too I guess.
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Old 10-29-2009, 11:32 AM
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Didn't find it within the parameters I set

Here's an experiment where the caps didn't spontaneously recharge..

More experiments to follow, using different capacitors and a perhaps a bedini charger; and higher voltage, bigger / smaller capacitors, etc.

YouTube - looking for spontaneous recharging of capacitors

Love and light
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Old 10-29-2009, 03:28 PM
gotoluc gotoluc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sucahyo View Post
I think he means that achieving same voltage for both radiant and normal DC is hard. Even when we measure 1V on radiant output by limiting input current it may not be the actual spike voltage, at 96+V by analog metering the spike may exceed scope limit. Getting DC at 1000+V is hard too I guess.

Hi sucahyo,

thanks for trying the re-explain what Matt is trying to communicate. Unfortunately I still don't understand what this has to do with my suggested experiment. Why would inductive flyback spikes of 1,000 volt or more effect the result. If the capacitors charged by flyback reaches a charge of some 200 volts and the other set of capacitors of the same value are charged by a 200 volts source then they both have the same Joule energy

Anyways, I see Inquorate has understood my test suggestion.

Thanks Inquorate for taking the time to do this experiment and post the video of the results even though they don't show any gains yet

Luc
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Old 10-29-2009, 04:53 PM
Matthew Jones Matthew Jones is offline
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gotoluc@
Quote:
I feel I'm a fair individual and try to find fair ways to do experiments
LOL, I apologize it wasn't intended to be personal comment. LOL.

I forget were not all American. I practice some bad grammar...

I meant to say the test was not a valid test. (Its not a fair assessment) It would be a good test if you could charge the caps with the same voltage in DC, to the same level as a radiant spike.
Both caps would have to be charged to 200 +- volts, and the current flowing in them would need to be about the same.
I don't have the abilty to do that.

Sorry about the misunderstanding.

Matt
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Old 10-30-2009, 04:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inquorate View Post
Here's an experiment where the caps didn't spontaneously recharge..
Is that direct or trough AV plug at secondary?

Ho many times the radiantly charged capacitor cycled?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gotoluc View Post
If the capacitors charged by flyback reaches a charge of some 200 volts and the other set of capacitors of the same value are charged by a 200 volts source then they both have the same Joule energy
I see. You just want to compare two capacitor with the same final standing voltage, then discharge it (Joule stored). I thought you want to charge capacitor with same voltage at same duration (Joule in). The later is harder to do.
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Old 10-30-2009, 06:30 AM
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Direct or avramenko plug

That's using the sec output; high frequency transmission of power through one wire to high speed diodes.

Results will probably be different with high voltage coil collapse.

The caps were only cycled about 20 times, and each cap only had 25 to 30 volts; more is likely necessary to condition them.

I just wanted to show how to make the experiment more than anything

Love and light
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 10-30-2009, 02:40 PM
gotoluc gotoluc is offline
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To everyone,

the way I understood this topic is, capacitors that have been conditioned (over many charge discharge cycles) with a Radiant source would recover to a higher voltage after a discharge then capacitors that had not been conditioned.

If this is so, then it does not matter which way you charge them (after they have been conditioned) as they should demonstrate what you are claiming (able to recover to a higher voltage after discharge). Just like John Bedini's battery tests where he uses a regular DC power supply once his battery is conditioned, you should be able to do the same, right?

If I'm not understanding then you can ignore me since it will be useless at this point.

Thank you all for your time and sharing.

Luc
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Old 10-30-2009, 03:09 PM
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Inquorate Inquorate is offline
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Good point

Quote:
Originally Posted by gotoluc View Post
To everyone,

the way I understood this topic is, capacitors that have been conditioned (over many charge discharge cycles) with a Radiant source would recover to a higher voltage after a discharge then capacitors that had not been conditioned.

If this is so, then it does not matter which way you charge them (after they have been conditioned) as they should demonstrate what you are claiming (able to recover to a higher voltage after discharge). Just like John Bedini's battery tests where he uses a regular DC power supply once his battery is conditioned, you should be able to do the same, right?

If I'm not understanding then you can ignore me since it will be useless at this point.

Thank you all for your time and sharing.

Luc
Good point Luc. I'll start conditioning one of my suntan caps with radiant tomorrow. The other I will leave alone for the final test, with normal dc on both caps.

Love and light

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Old 10-30-2009, 03:23 PM
Matthew Jones Matthew Jones is offline
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Unlike a battery, the effect does not seem to last.
If the cap is left alone after radiant charging then it will retain that property. If used with DC it seem to go back to a normal state. Slightly higher than off the shelf but not the same.

It may be the effect is temporary or the capacitor is easily formatted in one direction or the other. But more than likely it is a effect dictated by the fluid in the battery. It very well may hold residual charge for some period of time then run out.

When the subject came up in the other thread (I forget the name) they were convinced that the energy coming in was radiant. The suggestion I made was to try to use a capacitor plate for collection that had been exposed to radiant. Thinking this might improve the collection factor.
It may be that certian fluids in the capacitor are more opt to carry a residual charge. Some one might want to try oil caps versus, electrolyte.
Who knows.

Cheers
Matt
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