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  #11071  
Old 01-02-2017, 02:39 AM
tswift tswift is offline
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Well, I found at least part of my problem. I finally bought an ANALOG voltmeter, I got tired of frying digital ones. Not that I'm careless with them, but operating close to spark gaps and high voltage oscillating circuits does funny things to them and eventually causes damage. I have a 100M HV rated resistor on order but not in yet, but I do have a few 10M film resistors that can take a couple kilovolts in my parts bin. So I hooked up a resistor and the multimeter to measure current through the resistor. To my surprise, C1 is only charging to around 1,000 volts. It should be much higher, 10KV at least. So somewhere I have a conductive path to ground that's leaking enough current to matter, or else my PVM12 is not operating properly. It does light up fluorescent tubes just fine so it's not obvious what the problem might be. So now I need to do more checking and see if there's a subtle leak somewhere. One of the problem with high voltage projects is that we are often using parts that aren't HV-rated, take the terminal blocks for example. Even with proper insulation on the wires, there can be conductive paths through wood or other materials. Exposed joints are a problem. Any sharp points or small radii can have corona loss. The higher the voltage the worse it gets.
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  #11072  
Old 01-02-2017, 03:43 PM
dragon dragon is offline
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Here is an antenna design that I purchased plans and tested years ago. Much simpler than stringing lots of wire in the air. At the time, I used a battery between ground and the cap connection to polarize the cap and was able to get 4-10 watts of energy periodically. It would run consistently in the range of 5 to 20 hz with varying degrees of output. Using a 2 in dia tube 8 ft long offers the same surface area as 500 ft of 20 ga wire.

With the HVM it might be enhanced to operate at higher frequencies... the trick might be in the balancing of power required to maintain the HVM and energy harvested by the system. As well, like Tswift is experiencing, controlling the "leaks"

Free High Voltage Energy From The Air (Downloadable Plans) - Information Unlimited

Just a thought from past experiences with HV harvesting...
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  #11073  
Old 01-02-2017, 05:53 PM
Wistiti Wistiti is offline
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hi guys!
do the 500k pot have to be a powerfull one or a small one is ok? What is the sugest watt for it?
Thank you!
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  #11074  
Old 01-02-2017, 08:50 PM
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The diode D5 is specified to be 20KV fast recovery.

100NS is good.
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  #11075  
Old 01-02-2017, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragon View Post
Here is an antenna design that I purchased plans and tested years ago. Much simpler than stringing lots of wire in the air. At the time, I used a battery between ground and the cap connection to polarize the cap and was able to get 4-10 watts of energy periodically. It would run consistently in the range of 5 to 20 hz with varying degrees of output. Using a 2 in dia tube 8 ft long offers the same surface area as 500 ft of 20 ga wire.

With the HVM it might be enhanced to operate at higher frequencies... the trick might be in the balancing of power required to maintain the HVM and energy harvested by the system. As well, like Tswift is experiencing, controlling the "leaks"

Free High Voltage Energy From The Air (Downloadable Plans) - Information Unlimited

Just a thought from past experiences with HV harvesting...
Very interesting Dragon!

Will research this.




Here is an extract of Bruce's latest PDF



This might be more favourable!
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  #11076  
Old 01-02-2017, 09:00 PM
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soundiceuk soundiceuk is offline
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Originally Posted by Wistiti View Post
hi guys!
do the 500k pot have to be a powerfull one or a small one is ok? What is the sugest watt for it?
Thank you!
I'm looking into this. Will respond ASAP.
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  #11077  
Old 01-02-2017, 10:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wistiti View Post
hi guys!
do the 500k pot have to be a powerfull one or a small one is ok? What is the sugest watt for it?
Thank you!
No current flow in this part so take your pick!

500k potentiometer | eBay

Seems dearest one is 9 bucks!
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  #11078  
Old 01-02-2017, 10:42 PM
dragon dragon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soundiceuk View Post
Very interesting Dragon!

Will research this.




Here is an extract of Bruce's latest PDF



This might be more favourable!
I noticed the mention of 2 grounds - has it been built and tested?
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  #11079  
Old 01-02-2017, 10:55 PM
tswift tswift is offline
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Well, at least part of my problem appears to be in the diodes. Those UX-FOB diodes I've been using are rated 8KV but they don't seem to be working right. I substituted the two diodes shown in the picture for a single HVM-12 standard recovery (non-ultrafast) microwave oven type diode and actually got around 3KV on the capacitor instead of 1KV. The "standard recovery" diodes don't actually say how fast or slow the reverse recovery time spec is, it could be fast enough to be useful but I have noticed before when using them that although they do give some rectification at 30+ KHz frequencies, they also get warm and I'm sure there is some reverse leakage during the recovery period every cycle.

So I'm stuck on progress until my diodes come in, I have some 30KV 100ns 100 mA diodes on order but coming from China (groan). Might be a week or more before I see them. I did receive my large spool of 40KV wire so I can begin building the coils for the next upgraded version in the meantime, doing calculations now.
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  #11080  
Old 01-02-2017, 11:16 PM
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Quote:
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I noticed the mention of 2 grounds - has it been built and tested?
Yes, it has Dragon.

You know more than most people about using two hot spot earths and that it works.

You're probably one of the very few that knows already how to set up the earths too.

A counterpoise antenna will work too but which is a better option.

What we can't do is compare results from both antenna/ground, ground/ground in multiple locations around the world.

So here it is for replicators to try, if they wish to.

Mwtj, you could do a comparison test and see what works better and provide third party validation.

In theory it should work in low elevations.

That hasn't been tested.

Mwtj is in Holland and hasn't exactly got a high elevation, yet he got the circuit working with no insulators and lots of leakage.
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Last edited by soundiceuk; 01-02-2017 at 11:51 PM.
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  #11081  
Old 01-02-2017, 11:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tswift View Post
Well, at least part of my problem appears to be in the diodes. Those UX-FOB diodes I've been using are rated 8KV but they don't seem to be working right. I substituted the two diodes shown in the picture for a single HVM-12 standard recovery (non-ultrafast) microwave oven type diode and actually got around 3KV on the capacitor instead of 1KV. The "standard recovery" diodes don't actually say how fast or slow the reverse recovery time spec is, it could be fast enough to be useful but I have noticed before when using them that although they do give some rectification at 30+ KHz frequencies, they also get warm and I'm sure there is some reverse leakage during the recovery period every cycle.

So I'm stuck on progress until my diodes come in, I have some 30KV 100ns 100 mA diodes on order but coming from China (groan). Might be a week or more before I see them. I did receive my large spool of 40KV wire so I can begin building the coils for the next upgraded version in the meantime, doing calculations now.
Yes 100ma, 30KV, 100NS are perfect for D5.
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  #11082  
Old 01-03-2017, 03:58 AM
tesluh tesluh is offline
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I haven't been having luck with ux-fob diodes working well either, or cl01-12, if you want something to try in the meantime while your china ones come in try 1n5408 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

connected in series in a chain. cheap enough to see if they do what you need. I don't know the specs aside from what you see on the amazon ad.
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  #11083  
Old 01-03-2017, 04:50 AM
tswift tswift is offline
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Yeah, if I had a bunch of 1N5408 diodes laying around it would be worth a try. Regular HV diodes internally are just a bunch of diodes in series, which is why they have a larger forward voltage drop than regular diodes. So it would probably end up acting a lot like the HVM-12 diodes I already have. I notice that the datasheet for the 1N5408 device only specifies characteristics at 60 Hz and doesn't specify reverse recovery time so it's certainly not an "ultrafast" or probably even a "fast" design or they would make a point of it. Doesn't mean it won't work but probably won't work well. Unfortunately there's really no substitute for true HV diodes that are also high speed. By the time you add "high voltage", "high speed" and "high current" into the mix, you get devices that are neither small nor cheap, I paid almost $4.00 each for the 100 mA 30KV 100ns diodes.

http://www.diodes.com/_files/datasheets/ds28007.pdf
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  #11084  
Old 01-03-2017, 05:07 AM
tswift tswift is offline
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I should have mentioned, I'm glad to know it's not just me having problems with the UX-FOB devices. They seemed like a good buy for the specs, an 8KV 500 mA diode for not insane money but they don't seem to work well in practice. I didn't know whether mine had just suffered from the various experiments I have put them through or whether it's the diodes themselves. I found a datasheet for them and they look OK on paper, 8KV, 0.5A, 40 ns. I have done some experiments where I got better results with the HVM-12 non-fast diodes even at 30 KHz or higher, so that made me suspicious. I would recommend other experimenters steer clear of them.
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  #11085  
Old 01-03-2017, 07:13 AM
ricards ricards is online now
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Ultrafast Diode

Quote:
Originally Posted by tswift View Post
Yeah, if I had a bunch of 1N5408 diodes laying around it would be worth a try. Regular HV diodes internally are just a bunch of diodes in series, which is why they have a larger forward voltage drop than regular diodes. So it would probably end up acting a lot like the HVM-12 diodes I already have. I notice that the datasheet for the 1N5408 device only specifies characteristics at 60 Hz and doesn't specify reverse recovery time so it's certainly not an "ultrafast" or probably even a "fast" design or they would make a point of it. Doesn't mean it won't work but probably won't work well. Unfortunately there's really no substitute for true HV diodes that are also high speed. By the time you add "high voltage", "high speed" and "high current" into the mix, you get devices that are neither small nor cheap, I paid almost $4.00 each for the 100 mA 30KV 100ns diodes.

http://www.diodes.com/_files/datasheets/ds28007.pdf

you could try the Ultrafast version of 1N5408, just replace "1N" with "UF". UF5408
http://www.vishay.com/docs/88756/uf5400.pdf
75 ns recovery time

I ordered a lot of these cut them short, connect by soldering and wrap them with teflon then electrical tape, put it inside a ballpen *case for extra protection and sturdiness and you will have UF high voltage diode with less leakage (its just going to be longer than the expensive ones.), but it works, this is what I use.

or maybe the low amp version of it. uf4007 (1kv 1A). these are more flexible and much easier to connect to form like a spiral, so it wont be that long (considering you have to connect 30 in series to achieve 30kv).
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Last edited by ricards; 01-03-2017 at 07:57 AM. Reason: UF4007
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  #11086  
Old 01-03-2017, 02:11 PM
Wistiti Wistiti is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ricards View Post
you could try the Ultrafast version of 1N5408, just replace "1N" with "UF". UF5408
http://www.vishay.com/docs/88756/uf5400.pdf
75 ns recovery time

I ordered a lot of these cut them short, connect by soldering and wrap them with teflon then electrical tape, put it inside a ballpen *case for extra protection and sturdiness and you will have UF high voltage diode with less leakage (its just going to be longer than the expensive ones.), but it works, this is what I use.

or maybe the low amp version of it. uf4007 (1kv 1A). these are more flexible and much easier to connect to form like a spiral, so it wont be that long (considering you have to connect 30 in series to achieve 30kv).
The 5408 also have an "SF" version SF5408 it is also rate 1kv/3a/75ns.



Thank you Soundiceuk for the reply on the pot. I have another question about the fixed capacitor c1-c2. The one I have under hand are ceramic disc (see the photo) They are quite smaller than the doorknob one I see in the photo of guys steup... Do you think they will do the job?
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  #11087  
Old 01-03-2017, 02:18 PM
Wistiti Wistiti is offline
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Better scale image.
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  #11088  
Old 01-03-2017, 03:12 PM
tswift tswift is offline
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It might work, at least it's worth a try. The amount of ripple current through them is the problem, they will be subject to many charge/discharge cycles per second with every pulse of the PPV. If the gap breakdown voltage was the full 20KV rating of the cap I think you might have a problem with this, but running at a narrow gap width the breakdown voltage is probably more like 1000-1500V and I'm sure they can handle this. I tend to suspect that in the yet-to-be-seen future improvements of the device they will be operated closer to their voltage ratings and you might find them getting warm or failing entirely. But for now I would use them so it's one less part to spend money on.
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  #11089  
Old 01-03-2017, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wistiti View Post
The 5408 also have an "SF" version SF5408 it is also rate 1kv/3a/75ns.
Got to be 100ns

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wistiti View Post
I have another question about the fixed capacitor c1-c2. The one I have under hand are ceramic disc (see the photo) They are quite smaller than the doorknob one I see in the photo of guys steup... Do you think they will do the job?


I'll find out if they will do for a proof of concept.

These are what one of the builders is using.

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  #11090  
Old 01-03-2017, 08:33 PM
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Yes, these will work.


These look huge in comparison!

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  #11091  
Old 01-03-2017, 10:54 PM
Wistiti Wistiti is offline
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Thank you guys for the info on the cap. It is good news!

Sorry for that but I have another question... (as I have said before I may have many!! )

It is the second time I see a replication using magnet wire on the hv side. (L1-L2) Do these wire are really enough insulate for that??? If so it is another good news cause I have a bunch of them. For how much volt are they be made for? Maybe using these magnet wire with some spacer between the turn to avoid arcing, I think of something like plastic wire from a grass trimmer...
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  #11092  
Old 01-03-2017, 11:36 PM
Wistiti Wistiti is offline
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A question about the ant. Can the 468ft be put over an existing building (like in the schematic) or it is not recomand??
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  #11093  
Old 01-04-2017, 12:21 AM
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The coil is put there just for the photo.

The real coil should be HV wire.

The only third party working replication I have seen is Mwtj and his uses HV wire.

Mwtj did say in a post that there was loads of static and corona with magnet wire so he switched to 1KV magnet wire.

That was really on its limits using 15kv-20kv.

Magnet wire isn't ideal.

Maybe if you space it out you will get away with it for a proof of concept.
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  #11094  
Old 01-04-2017, 12:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wistiti View Post
A question about the ant. Can the 468ft be put over an existing building (like in the schematic) or it is not recomand??

As long as it is well insulated that will be fine.

It is only for experimentation purposes and not for use in thunder and lighting storms or you will need a lightning arrestor.

Consider Mwtj's grid design also.
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Last edited by soundiceuk; 01-09-2017 at 10:27 AM.
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  #11095  
Old 01-04-2017, 02:35 AM
Wistiti Wistiti is offline
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Hi Soundiceuk and thank you for your quick reply! It is appreciate.

My last question ... ...for today!

Do the variable air cap really need to be 1,5kv rating?? In the new version (V.7.0.0) they both are on the low voltage side... I don't understand why a 250v will not do the job?
If so it will be another great news cause these are much less expensive and easily found than the 1500v ones.

Thank you again for your great support!
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  #11096  
Old 01-04-2017, 08:17 PM
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They were used to prevent the primary and secondary arcing out.

The ions flow in surges and sometimes the surges are huge. Like waves of the ocean!

Overkill if you are not using a high voltage multiplier.

You could get away with using 50V rating for a proof of concept.
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  #11097  
Old 01-05-2017, 04:19 PM
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another technical request



How much level can the earth ground quality effect an over energy device ? i am doing some experiment where the earth play a critical role , standing waves can be seeing very easily either with a small light bulb or using a scope probes ..

all the test are based on the ETBC but with a ferrite rod inside, the capacitors banks can be charged only when there's an earth ground, now the question arise to how much level will affect the system ?


thanks in advance !
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  #11098  
Old 01-05-2017, 04:40 PM
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this is a quote from smith.pdf

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  #11099  
Old 01-06-2017, 04:25 AM
Wistiti Wistiti is offline
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My question of the day!

How do you guys achieve and measure the 500khz?
I suppose it is by varying the gap on the PPV'X' but, in the past, I fried MANY meters on project with spark gap and I need help on the correct way to achieve it...

Any help will be appreciate!
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  #11100  
Old 01-06-2017, 07:44 AM
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Ideally you need a frequency meter.
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