Energetic Forum  
Facebook Twitter Google+ Pinterest LinkedIn Delicious Digg Reddit WordPress StumbleUpon Tumblr Translate Addthis Aaron Murakami YouTube ONLY 13% OF SEATS AVAILABLE!!!*** 2017 ENERGY CONFERENCE ***


* NEW * BEDINI RPX BOOK & DVD SET: BEDINI RPX


Go Back   Energetic Forum > >
   

Renewable Energy Discussion on various alternative energy, renewable energy, & free energy technologies. Also any discussion about the environment, global warming, and other related topics are welcome here.

Bedini RPX Sideband Generator
Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #31  
Old 10-14-2009, 01:22 AM
Matthew Jones's Avatar
Matthew Jones Matthew Jones is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,588
Quote:
Hi Matt, Seems to be a problem with some kind of "backroom" operation...
The fact is anytime you make a phone call or email international you are subject to NSA scrutiny. That is the jurisdiction of the NSA. You have always been subject to this. THey can monitor up to 15 minutes, or longer if key words are provided.

The crime came when they were tracking people in the United States without warrant. This was done from what I understand under executive orders. Or the TSP.
Any international tracking is fair game according to the charter on the NSA.

More than likely even if you are tracked no real person ever listens to the data unless you meet certain criteria for keywords.

At least that the way I understand it. I'm not making excuses for them though if they did break laws, I just think alot people don't understand what goes on there. Many misconceptions based on fiction.
No one agency in any country is capable of being the BIG BROTHER. It is simply impossible.

Matt
__________________
Man, despite his pretensions, sophistications and myriad accomplishments, owes his existence to a 6-inch layer of top soil and the fact that it rains.

This is not me!! http://www.energeticforum.com/member...matthew_jones/
Reply With Quote

Download SOLAR SECRETS by Peter Lindemann
Free - Get it now: Solar Secrets

  #32  
Old 10-14-2009, 08:44 AM
rickoff's Avatar
rickoff rickoff is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Maine, USA
Posts: 3,291
Quote:
Originally Posted by future pather View Post
Then he said to them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's."

What this means to me is that God does intend for us to honor whoever provides our roads, schools, police force, etc.
Hmmm, sorry but I don't see it that way. Simplified reasoning would conclude that Jesus meant precisely what he said, which was to give Caesar what was his (the coins bearing his image), and to give God what God expects (worship, prayer, etc.).

Do you think that the government is the great provider who provides all the things you mentioned? Not so. It is we, the taxpayers, who provide these things, and the purpose of the government is to serve the people by administering these and other items as we see fit. Giving honor should be reserved for those who have earned our respect, served our country with dignity, and upheld the ideals of the founding fathers. Corrupt politicians and government officials, and the big money bankers who control them, certainly do not deserve to be honored. You may remember that the only occurrence in the Bible of Jesus becoming enraged and acting violently was when he overturned the tables of the moneychangers. - Matthew 21:12 By actively seeking to expose and cast out the modern day moneychangers, are we not following in Christ's footsteps and learning from his example?

Rick
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 10-14-2009, 09:50 AM
Matthew Jones's Avatar
Matthew Jones Matthew Jones is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,588
Quote:
are we not following in Christ's footsteps and learning from his example
Yes we are!!

Matt
__________________
Man, despite his pretensions, sophistications and myriad accomplishments, owes his existence to a 6-inch layer of top soil and the fact that it rains.

This is not me!! http://www.energeticforum.com/member...matthew_jones/
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 10-14-2009, 05:16 PM
future pather's Avatar
future pather future pather is offline
Energetic Science Practitioner
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: California
Posts: 1,949
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickoff View Post
Hmmm, sorry but I don't see it that way. Simplified reasoning would conclude that Jesus meant precisely what he said, which was to give Caesar what was his (the coins bearing his image), and to give God what God expects (worship, prayer, etc.).

Do you think that the government is the great provider who provides all the things you mentioned? Not so. It is we, the taxpayers, who provide these things, and the purpose of the government is to serve the people by administering these and other items as we see fit. Giving honor should be reserved for those who have earned our respect, served our country with dignity, and upheld the ideals of the founding fathers. Corrupt politicians and government officials, and the big money bankers who control them, certainly do not deserve to be honored. You may remember that the only occurrence in the Bible of Jesus becoming enraged and acting violently was when he overturned the tables of the moneychangers. - Matthew 21:12 By actively seeking to expose and cast out the modern day moneychangers, are we not following in Christ's footsteps and learning from his example?

Rick
I fail to see the difference in your interpretation of the scripture and mine.

Since you asked, yes I do believe government is a great provider. Although I will agree with you in that it is also a representation of the people. Both of these statements are what God intended for the best. But humans fall short quite often. I just don't see that as a reason to throw out the system.

And you never seem to address the concept of sin in other populations. Your posts seem to imply that every tax payer is honorable (oh but exclude them damn rich ones and also those government officials), everyone who served in war is honorable, etc. Do you really think life is that simple? Have you walked a mile in the shoes of those you are condemning?

Investigations are fine. . . just the more you hate the rich I'm sure the more they will hate you, ya know? Learn all you want but perhaps do something positive like pray with the info rather than seethe in judgment and hatred.

If anyone is implying I am condemning them by posting scripture quotes, really I am not. It just rubs me the wrong way to see so much judgment and I like to offer another perspective.
__________________
Keep your mind on the aether www.PathsToSucceed.com
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 10-14-2009, 05:55 PM
future pather's Avatar
future pather future pather is offline
Energetic Science Practitioner
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: California
Posts: 1,949
It's probably not fair for me not to address Rick's point about Jesus overturning the money tables. . .

But I'm not looking for an argument either. I'll just state my opinion on it. .

First Jesus did not judge pieces in the cog. He ate with tax collectors and taught to have peace by obeying people in superior positions.

However there were definitely certain times when he taught that god's will and intent was not being honored by certain practices.

I believe the overturning of the tables was the only time he did so in a way that was not productive. (In other instances, he for example, healed on the Sabbath - something productive.)

When Jesus overturned the tables, it was right before his death. I believe his death is / can be (many interpretations to the Bible as it is deep on many levels) a metaphor for spiritual death, or lack of faith.

Jesus is supposed to represent God in human form, so imo Jesus did lose a lot of faith right before his "death." He even asked god right before he died why god had deserted him. If that is not a lack of faith I don't know what is.

So this means, yeah it is human nature to get fed up and at times even act out.

Thank god that Jesus was resurrected and his faith was restored
__________________
Keep your mind on the aether www.PathsToSucceed.com
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 10-14-2009, 06:01 PM
future pather's Avatar
future pather future pather is offline
Energetic Science Practitioner
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: California
Posts: 1,949
(To be really nit-picky Jesus did also curse a fig tree but that too was right before his death so I see it supporting my point.)
__________________
Keep your mind on the aether www.PathsToSucceed.com
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 10-14-2009, 06:31 PM
rickoff's Avatar
rickoff rickoff is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Maine, USA
Posts: 3,291
Quote:
Originally Posted by future pather View Post
I fail to see the difference in your interpretation of the scripture and mine.
That doesn't surprise me at all, Jessica.

"There are none so blind as those who cannot see." -Jonathan Swift
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 10-14-2009, 09:16 PM
h20power h20power is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 661
What I see mostly is a total lack of understanding just who the government is in the US. The preamble doesn't say, "I the President," nor "We the Congress or the Senate," it says, "We The People" are the government of the united states of America. Simply by miss naming or representatives all is lost. The secound biggest mistake I see very often is a miss understanding of what a Democracy and a Republic is and the difference between the two forms of government. A Democracy is majority rule a Republic is the rule of law. Example: In a Democracy if someone comitts a crime flees and is caught and all vote to hang him he dies. In a Republic all vote to hang this same individual and the sherif comes by says, "You can't hang him he has rights."

Now because this missiderstanding of what America, a Republic, is all is lost. Everyone has been fooled into beliving we are a Democracy when when in fact we are a Republic by the ruling class and I'd be willing to bet more than half of them also belive we are a Democracy. Why is this important, you might be asking? It is important as it goes to the core of how this nation is now falling. Because we nolonger understand just what America is anylonger we are going to lose her. What is being done right now on capital hill is nothing less than treason. If I am in the military and take my company over there and accept payment to defend their interest and order my company to do so promissing to also give them a share in the loot, we would all be tried and shot for treason, but they do it all the time on capital hill and nothing happens to them and they took the same oath of office. That is truly how America is now falling right now thru ignorance.

h2opower.



Quote:
Originally Posted by future pather View Post
I fail to see the difference in your interpretation of the scripture and mine.

Since you asked, yes I do believe government is a great provider. Although I will agree with you in that it is also a representation of the people. Both of these statements are what God intended for the best. But humans fall short quite often. I just don't see that as a reason to throw out the system.

And you never seem to address the concept of sin in other populations. Your posts seem to imply that every tax payer is honorable (oh but exclude them damn rich ones and also those government officials), everyone who served in war is honorable, etc. Do you really think life is that simple? Have you walked a mile in the shoes of those you are condemning?

Investigations are fine. . . just the more you hate the rich I'm sure the more they will hate you, ya know? Learn all you want but perhaps do something positive like pray with the info rather than seethe in judgment and hatred.

If anyone is implying I am condemning them by posting scripture quotes, really I am not. It just rubs me the wrong way to see so much judgment and I like to offer another perspective.
__________________
 

Last edited by h20power; 10-14-2009 at 09:24 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 10-15-2009, 12:30 AM
rickoff's Avatar
rickoff rickoff is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Maine, USA
Posts: 3,291
Quote:
Originally Posted by future pather View Post
Since you asked, yes I do believe government is a great provider.
Thanks for confirming that. I thought so - just wanted to be sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by future pather View Post
humans fall short quite often. I just don't see that as a reason to throw out the system.
Neither I, nor anyone else here (to my knowledge) is suggesting that we throw out the system that the founding fathers of our country established and intended for us. Rather, we are saying that the system which our founding fathers intended for us has been hijacked, distorted, undermined, and circumvented by the powerful elite of the American Ruling Class, and that those who are responsible need to be thrown out if the intended system is to be restored.

Quote:
Originally Posted by future pather View Post
Your posts seem to imply that every tax payer is honorable (oh but exclude them damn rich ones and also those government officials), everyone who served in war is honorable, etc. Do you really think life is that simple? Have you walked a mile in the shoes of those you are condemning?
I imply nothing - I simply present facts in a manner that should be clearly understood by any reasonable thinking reader. I never said, or implied that every taxpayer is honorable, although those who cheat on, or evade paying their tax (like Timothy Geithner, for example) while leaving the rest of us to pick up their fair share of the burden certainly are not honorable. Tax revolting could be honorable, however, if the purpose is to derail the ability of the powerful elite to use our taxes in promoting their unsavory agenda. Be aware that I also never said or implied that everyone who served in war is or was an honorable person, and it is ridiculous for you to draw that conclusion. I do feel, however, that those who have stood up against tyranny to defend our freedom and Constitutional rights should be honored. Would you disagree with that? If you would take the time to carefully read my posts, you would see that I have nothing against ethical individual wealth building or ethical government officials. I clearly make the distinction that I am talking about the unethical and corrupt individuals and groups within the American Ruling Class, and elsewhere in the world, whose purpose is to achieve total and absolute world domination. If you want to support and defend those individuals and groups then that is your right, and I will defend your freedom to have and make that choice. Just realize, though, that if what we are saying is correct, and if the rest of us choose as you have, then in the near future none of us will have that freedom to choose any longer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by future pather View Post
Investigations are fine. . . just the more you hate the rich I'm sure the more they will hate you, ya know? Learn all you want but perhaps do something positive like pray with the info rather than seethe in judgment and hatred.
It seems that you are the one who is seething in judgment and hatred. I have not expressed any hatred towards anyone, and have not suggested that hatred is productive or necessary. Frankly, I have never met a person - rich or otherwise - whom I have felt hatred for. You, on the other hand, are attempting to promote the idea that anyone who disagrees with your point of view is a hate monger. I think that folks won't have much difficulty in seeing through your ploy. I believe that we are doing something positive by peacefully presenting truth and facts to others, and sharing our knowledge and findings on these subjects. It is fine to pray for change, and for deliverance from evil, but don't you think that God would be sorely disappointed in us if that is all we did, and we simply expected him to bring about the changes that are needed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by future pather View Post
If anyone is implying I am condemning them by posting scripture quotes, really I am not. It just rubs me the wrong way to see so much judgment and I like to offer another perspective.
Again, we are only sharing important and reliable information here that all citizens of the world should be aware of. To do that, we should all strive to make statements of supportable fact, rather than vague suppositions and personal opinion. I don't see how you can surmise that anyone, other than yourself, is implying anything. As far as the quoting of scripture goes, I don't think that it should be used here in support of an argument, at least unless one is willing to accept the meaning of the written word literally. You have demonstrated that you choose to draw conclusions and interpretations as to what the written words might imply, from your viewpoint, rather than to accept the literal meaning, and thus your quotations become meaningless to the matter of discussion. Please take the time to carefully read what others post, and to examine what they have stated. If something that is stated appears to you to be wrong, then please research your rebuttal and present contrary statements that are factual and verifiable. If your presentation is accurate, and politely submitted, I am sure that others will be quick to admit of its veracity. If not, then you can probably expect more of the type of responses that you have been receiving.

No hard feelings, and best wishes to you,

Rick
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 10-15-2009, 06:13 AM
ANTIQUER's Avatar
ANTIQUER ANTIQUER is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: 0rlando,fl., u.s.a.
Posts: 482
What's the underlying reason we're in this situation?

Quote by Matthew Jones:

Quote:
are we not following in Christ's footsteps and learning from his example
Well, some are, some are not, and that is the crux of the matter.

The events in Matthew 22:15-22 are explained in depth in Matthew Henry's commentaries, which you can find here. Matthew 22 Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible

For those who don't know of M. Henry he was a pastor/theologian in the U.S. in the early 1800's. His commentaries have have been a standard used in Christian theological courses for over 200 years.

This excerpt is the question and answer in a nutshell:

Quote:
Now the question was, Whether it was lawful to pay these taxes voluntarily, or, Whether they should not insist upon the ancient liberty of their nation, and rather suffer themselves to be distrained upon? The ground of the doubt was, that they were Abraham's seed, and should not by consent be in bondage to any man, Jn. 8:33. God had given them a law, that they should not set a stranger over them. Did not that imply, that they were not to yield any willing subjection to any prince, state, or potentate, that was not of their own nation and religion? This was an old mistake, arising from that pride and that haughty spirit which bring destruction and a fall. Jeremiah, in his time, though he spoke in God's name, could not possibly beat them off it, nor persuade them to submit to the king of Babylon; and their obstinacy in that matter was then their ruin (Jer. 27:12, 13): and now again they stumbled at the same stone; and it was the very thing which, in a few years after, brought final destruction upon them by the Romans. They quite mistook the sense both of the precept and of the privilege, and, under colour of God's word, contended with his providence, when they should have kissed the rod, and accepted the punishment of their iniquity.
You can find further examples in I Peter 2:13, Romans 13:1-7 and Acts
5:34-39 has examples of 2 groups who rose up in armed rebellion against unjust authority and were destroyed. And of course the Romans finally destroyed the rebellious Judeans in A.D.70 as Henry mentions in the excerpt above.

We are actually in a better position than they were as they were ruled by Rome under an appointed dictator(Herod)who was not even a Judean. They had no civil rights. We, on the other hand, can vote for our officials. One big problem is too many people don't vote and many of those that do make a wrong choice,thus leading to the situation we are now in.

Quote:
You may remember that the only occurrence in the Bible of Jesus becoming enraged and acting violently was when he overturned the tables of the moneychangers. - Matthew 21:12
Rick, there is no indication that Jesus was enraged, not in the punctuation or the words. Indeed, Mark said "he taught" the lesson of keeping the temple pure and free of commerce, a good example of teaching by word and deeds.

Quote:
When Jesus overturned the tables, it was right before his death. I believe his death is / can be (many interpretations to the Bible as it is deep on many levels) a metaphor for spiritual death, or lack of faith.
Jessica, I don't know how anyone can get the interpretation of his death being a metaphor. That is only open to interpretation by those who do not understand the Bible. He was not forsaken as in obedience he was carrying out the course laid out by God in prophesy. His suffering on the cross was so great, more than any person before or since, and was so terrible that even God the Father could not bear to watch. He turned his face away, thus leading to Jesus' cry. This was also a fulfillment of prophecy. See Psalm 22:1-3 and Psalm 88:14-15.

Also, as the sacrificial lamb to atone for the sins of mankind forever, he had to physically die. See Matthew 27 Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible

As to your comment connecting the fig tree being cursed to Jesus' reply about rendering to Caesar or to God what each was entitled to I am at a loss as to the connection. Please explain if you care to.

Lastly, we are not all one other than the fact we all live on this planet hurtling through space. The Bible makes it abundantly clear that there are born-again Christians and everyone else.

I'm sure you know what Jesus said; a man "must be born again" (John 2:3). I Cor. 2:14 says "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him;neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.". Romans 8:9 "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if so be that the spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." Scofield comments " Flesh is the whole natural or unregenerated man, spirit, soul and body, as centered on self,prone to sin, and opposed to God (Romans 7:18). The regenerate man is not "in the sphere of the flesh, but is in the sphere of the spirit (Romans 8:9); but the flesh is still in him, and he may choose to walk "after the flesh" or "in the spirit" (I Cor. 3:1-4 : Gal. 5:16-17.)"

Christians are not perfect, but they are forgiven of sin by Jesus when they genuinely repent and ask for forgiveness and ask him to come live in their hearts. At that time their name is recorded in the book of life. That's why they face only judgment for their actions for him, after the rapture (I Thess. 4:16-18) and "in the air" (II Cor. 5:10), at which time they receive or lose rewards (crowns). The judgment for the unsaved dead is in Rev. 20:11-15. At that time the "books" are opened, including the "Book of Life", which contains the names of all Christians. If their name is not recorded there,no matter how "good" a life they have lived on earth, they are cast into the lake of fire, where the devil, the false prophet, and the beast are. (Rev. 20:10) This is the second or final death.

If any of the above conflicts with your beliefs or interpretations, you are, of course, entitled to them. I would only ask that you consider the above seriously in the spirit in which I give it; discussion for the purpose of enlightenment of all.

Any comments are, as usual, welcome.

Al
__________________
Antiquer
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 10-15-2009, 08:19 AM
rickoff's Avatar
rickoff rickoff is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Maine, USA
Posts: 3,291
Reply to Al:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ANTIQUER View Post
Rick, there is no indication that Jesus was enraged, not in the punctuation or the words. Indeed, Mark said "he taught" the lesson of keeping the temple pure and free of commerce, a good example of teaching by word and deeds.
Perhaps I should have used the word "outraged" instead, but you'll have to admit that Jesus wasn't against kicking butt when the situation called for it. He was certainly outraged that the moneychangers were practicing usury in the temple, and certainly did resort to forcefully driving them out. He made a whip out of cords, and used it to drive the userers out while overturning their money tables and spilling their money out upon the floor. That's some rather strong action to take, but I think well deserved under the circumstances.
"And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;" - John 2:15
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...eyChangers.jpg

The quote at the beginning of your post was something I had stated in a previous post, and in full reads, "By actively seeking to expose and cast out the modern day moneychangers [the big money bankers and powerful elite], are we not following in Christ's footsteps and learning from his example?"

As I have said before, Al, I fully agree with you that we need to vote people into office who will take action to weaken and then drive out the userers who oppress us. I'm not suggesting that anyone actually take up a whip, or otherwise physically punish them, but rather that we can "crack the whip" of justice at them if we will all stand together and demand justice.

Best regards to you Al,

Rick
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 10-15-2009, 10:27 AM
h20power h20power is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 661
Now can everyone understand just how they are getting away with this? Through the duming down of America in which the vast majority don't understand the constitution or bill of rights. We were warned by our founding fathers that this would happen. What people don't understand is a Democracy is a transitional form of government. One that starts off with a lot of freedoms but ends up turning into a ollargarky or however it is spelled. The process is slow but now you are seeing it come to an end with this north American union. That is the main reason why they don't want our children saying the pledge to the flage anymore for in it it reminds us that we are a Republic. Try a test sample of your own, go out and ask people what type of government the US is you will find that most will say we are a Democracy. I have seen college profesors fined and fired for trying to teach the US Constitution to there students. Now if that doesn't send up any alarm flages I don't know what else will.

I know this sounds to simple to be the truth but it was not a simple task for them for they where learning as they went along. Take control of the edjucation system and replace it with a fully controled media and mass entertainment system and the marjority of people will never know the truth and will even fight for them to end America. When America falls it will go down with thunderous aplause from the brain washed citizens. Already if you take a look at the ownership of America you will see home after home bank owned just as Thomas Jefferson fortold.

Now that's the simple truth, though it is more complex than that.

h2opower.
__________________
 

Last edited by h20power; 10-15-2009 at 10:31 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 10-15-2009, 03:57 PM
d3adp00l d3adp00l is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 7
the simple version is this, unless a large number of people stop living in this system, then it will not change.
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 10-15-2009, 08:39 PM
future pather's Avatar
future pather future pather is offline
Energetic Science Practitioner
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: California
Posts: 1,949
I guess last night was the deadline to come clean on offshore accounts. Many did.

Thousands of Tax Cheats Come Clean - ABC News
__________________
Keep your mind on the aether www.PathsToSucceed.com
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 10-15-2009, 08:41 PM
future pather's Avatar
future pather future pather is offline
Energetic Science Practitioner
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: California
Posts: 1,949
Al,

What I meant about the fig tree was it was a destructive act like turning over the tables, different from how Jesus usually behaved.

I'm not saying Jesus did not really die but I still see the period before his death as an example of a man losing his faith, thus the destructive acts of cursing the fig tree to never bear fruit again and knocking over the tables.

(Which is pretty much how I view a lot of stuff in this thread, an example of those losing faith, going towards spiritual death.)

Jessica
__________________
Keep your mind on the aether www.PathsToSucceed.com

Last edited by future pather; 10-15-2009 at 08:48 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 10-16-2009, 12:07 AM
Ted Ewert Ted Ewert is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 597
If we really want to get spiritual about it, it all boils down to the battle between truth and ignorance (good and evil).
Once you see the world for what it really is, you see it as a lie. You see the manipulators and the sheep as clear as day. You are done being a sheep and want nothing to do with being just one of the flock anymore. It's time to square off against the wolves.
You then try and tell the sheep that they really aren't the free people they think they are, that they are being controlled by the wolves instead of the kind shepard. Instead of welcoming this liberating news, they turn and attack you. This is because the sheep are just fine with being sheep while pretending to be free, no matter who is in control. True freedom has too steep a price for them.
The sheep want the government (wolves) to take the responsibility of making the hard decisions, and then be able to bleat about it when the government screws them. Just so long as they don't have to be carted off to the slaughterhouse (Afghanistan) they're happy. It's only when it's too late, and their neck is actually on the block that they finally realize the error of their reasoning. This is exactly how the wolves have planned it.
A population who has become lazy and complacent will inevitably allow themselves to be enslaved by evil (ignorance). The spiritual corollary of this is allowing yourself to become completely convinced of the absolute reality of creation, without maintaining the perspective that it's all actually a dream of the creator's. Ignorance of the spiritual origins of this world will cause untold terror as long as the immortal soul identifies itself completely with a mortal body. This is why people will allow themselves to be controlled and harvested by the wolves. The alternative of true freedom means having to face the reality of immortality. This produces great fear in the body and heavy resistance from the ego, which are both constructs of this reality.
This is part of the reason why people who are not ready for the truth will just not listen. They are unwilling and unable to face the possibility of their world view being threatened. You may as well talk to the flowers, at least they won't turn and attack you.

Cheers,

Ted
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 10-16-2009, 02:49 AM
ashtweth's Avatar
ashtweth ashtweth is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,493
Send a message via Skype™ to ashtweth
Ted, i have enjoyed this and the other post, i try to preserve the liberal statements and neutral and put them into a helpful context on the site, i know others reading it can benefit. Always enjoy your perspective man.

Ash

~ The problem with capitalism is that it best rewards the worst part of us: the
ruthless, competitive, conniving, opportunistic, acquisitive drives, giving
little reward and often much punishment--or at least much handicap--to honesty, compassion, fair play, many forms of hard work, love of justice, and a concern for those in need. ~ --Michael Parenti
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 10-16-2009, 06:39 AM
rickoff's Avatar
rickoff rickoff is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Maine, USA
Posts: 3,291
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Ewert View Post
If we really want to get spiritual about it, it all boils down to the battle between truth and ignorance (good and evil).
Once you see the world for what it really is, you see it as a lie. You see the manipulators and the sheep as clear as day. You are done being a sheep and want nothing to do with being just one of the flock anymore. It's time to square off against the wolves.
You then try and tell the sheep that they really aren't the free people they think they are, that they are being controlled by the wolves instead of the kind shepard. Instead of welcoming this liberating news, they turn and attack you. This is because the sheep are just fine with being sheep while pretending to be free, no matter who is in control. True freedom has too steep a price for them.
Well said, Ted. Exactly my sentiments. To me, the thought that taking a stand against evil is somehow "destructive" and will lead to "spiritual death" is ludicrous. The only destructive element would be the destruction of the evil perpetrators' (the wolves) ability to carry on with their domination and control tactics, thus setting body and spirit free.

Rick
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 10-16-2009, 07:32 AM
rickoff's Avatar
rickoff rickoff is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Maine, USA
Posts: 3,291
Greenspan on the dollar slide:

Former Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan said on Thursday he was not too worried about the latest bout of selling in the U.S. dollar, which recently hit a 14-month low.

"I am not overly concerned," Greenspan said at a Council on Foreign Relations meeting.

Well, that doesn't surprise me, Alan, but anyone who isn't a member of the American Ruling Class and the CFR should be very concerned.
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 10-17-2009, 12:59 AM
ANTIQUER's Avatar
ANTIQUER ANTIQUER is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: 0rlando,fl., u.s.a.
Posts: 482
Hi Rick;

Quote:
Perhaps I should have used the word "outraged" instead, but you'll have to admit that Jesus wasn't against kicking butt when the situation called for it. He was certainly outraged that the moneychangers were practicing usury in the temple, and certainly did resort to forcefully driving them out. He made a whip out of cords, and used it to drive the userers out while overturning their money tables and spilling their money out upon the floor. That's some rather strong action to take, but I think well deserved under the circumstances.
"And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;" - John 2:15
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...eyChangers.jpg
I don't wish to belabor the point or seem contentious, but I think zeal would be the word to use, as in "He drove them out with great zeal". That's what the apostles were talking about in vs. 17; it relates back to a prophecy in Psalm 69.9 describing Jesus actions.

Two more indications he was calm; if outraged would he have taken the time to gather the thongs off the floor and braid a scourge? In vs. 18 would the Jews have approached him and he answered if he was showing signs of being outraged? After all, he had just turned over the tables, driven out the animals and was standing there with a whip in his hand, or at least still nearby?

A third point is that his visit was scheduled; see Malachi 3:1. As he knew beforehand what was going on, I think he rather matter-of-factly but sternly "cleaned house".

Lastly, it would have set a bad example for Christians then and now, which he never did. See Eph. 4:30-33 and Col. 3:8-11 .

I totally agree it was a strong and well deserved action, and we should follow his example by "cracking the whip of justice" at the modern day money changers. I just thing it important to get this correct for many reasons, all of which I am sure you are aware.

Respectfully,

Al
__________________
Antiquer
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old 10-17-2009, 06:00 AM
aljhoa aljhoa is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,106
by any other name

Revelations
Hitler: Founder Of Israel
Where the idea of race originated - Judaism
Al
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 10-17-2009, 06:01 AM
ANTIQUER's Avatar
ANTIQUER ANTIQUER is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: 0rlando,fl., u.s.a.
Posts: 482
Hi Jessica;
Thanks for the reply, I appreciate it.

Quote:
What I meant about the fig tree was it was a destructive act like turning over the tables, different from how Jesus usually behaved.

I'm not saying Jesus did not really die but I still see the period before his death as an example of a man losing his faith, thus the destructive acts of cursing the fig tree to never bear fruit again and knocking over the tables.
I must tell you, you are the only person I have ever heard express that opinion on these two incidents or anything leading up to Jesus' death on the cross. Wouldn't that be like God losing faith in himself? I would think that an impossibility.

Please see my last post to Rick concerning Jesus' actions in the temple. I believe they and his demeanor conformed to the pattern of the rest of his life. You may also see it here;
Matthew 21 Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible


As to the fig tree it was not a senseless act of destruction. Here, briefly, is what occurred;
I. Christ returned in the morning to Jerusalem, v. 18.
II. As he went, he hungered. He was a Man, and submitted to the infirmities of nature.
III.He was a poor Man, and had no present supply (of money).
IV. Christ therefore hungered, that he might have occasion to work this miracle, in cursing and so withering the barren fig-tree, and therein might give us an instance of his justice and his power, and both instructive.

V. See his justice, v. 19. He went to it, expecting fruit, because it had leaves; but, finding none, he sentenced it to a perpetual barrenness. The miracle had its significance, as well as others of his miracles. All Christ's miracles hitherto were wrought for the good of men, and proved the power of his grace and blessing; all he did was for the benefit and comfort of his friends, none for the terror or punishment of his enemies; but now, at last, to show that all judgment is committed to him, and that he is able not only to save, but to destroy, he would give a specimen of the power of his wrath and curse; yet this not on any man, woman, or child, because the great day of his wrath is not yet come, but on an inanimate tree; that is set forth for an example. The scope of it is the same with the parable of the fig-tree, Lu. 13:6.
VI. This cursing of the barren fig-tree represents the state of hypocrites in general; it teaches us that the fruit of fig-trees may justly be expected from those that have the leaves. Christ looks for the power of religion from those that make profession of it
VII. It represents the state of the nation and people of the Jews in particular; they were a fig-tree planted in Christ's way, as a church. observe the disappointment they gave to our Lord Jesus. He came among them, expecting to find some fruit.
VII. He passed upon them, that never any fruit should grow upon them or be gathered from them, as a church or as a people, from henceforward for ever. Never any good came from them (except the particular persons among them that believe), after they rejected Christ.
Last, the disciples admired the effect of Christ's curse (v. 20); They marvelled; no power could do it but his, who spake, and it was done. They marvelled at the suddenness of the thing; How soon is the fig-tree withered away!

I use excerpts from Henry's commentaries. If you care to read it all it is here;

Matthew 21 Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible

Jessica, I believe in "rightly dividing the truth" (II Tim. 2:15). I hope I have helped to show you what really went on here and why.

Sincerely,

Al
__________________
Antiquer
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 10-17-2009, 06:11 AM
ANTIQUER's Avatar
ANTIQUER ANTIQUER is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: 0rlando,fl., u.s.a.
Posts: 482
Thumbs down Junk.

ALJOHA

Quote:
by any other name
Revelations
Hitler: Founder Of Israel
Where the idea of race originated - Judaism
My only comment on this is the internet is full of trash.

Al
__________________
Antiquer

Last edited by ANTIQUER; 10-18-2009 at 05:09 AM. Reason: left out quoted links.
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 10-17-2009, 06:31 AM
ANTIQUER's Avatar
ANTIQUER ANTIQUER is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: 0rlando,fl., u.s.a.
Posts: 482
Hi Ted;

I agree with much of what you said, but not all.

Quote:
A population who has become lazy and complacent will inevitably allow themselves to be enslaved by evil (ignorance). The spiritual corollary of this is allowing yourself to become completely convinced of the absolute reality of creation, without maintaining the perspective that it's all actually a dream of the creator's. Ignorance of the spiritual origins of this world will cause untold terror as long as the immortal soul identifies itself completely with a mortal body. This is why people will allow themselves to be controlled and harvested by the wolves.
Ignorance is not evil; taking advantage of ignorance is evil. Is that what you meant, taking advantage of an ignorant population is evil?

The reality of creation is a dream of the creator ? What are the spiritual origins of this world? A further explanation, please.

Thanks,

Al
__________________
Antiquer
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 10-17-2009, 07:26 AM
rickoff's Avatar
rickoff rickoff is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Maine, USA
Posts: 3,291
Let's kick them all out

Hi Al, and all,

I hope you understand what I meant about Jesus driving out the moneychangers. I never meant to imply that Jesus flew off the handle and went berserk. I certainly don't see the event that way. Instead, I see the event in the view that Jesus was in full control of his faculties, that he considered the goings on of the moneychangers to be outrageous, and that he took prompt, strong, and decisive action to drive them out of the temple when apparently no one else was willing to do so. I believe he set a good example for others to follow if they would have the courage to do so. The reason I used that example was to illustrate that we face a very similar situation today, wherein the modern day moneychangers [Federal Reserve system, the big money bankers, and powerful elite] need to go.

The first step in accomplishing that should be to throw out (vote out, that is) our current government representatives, and replace them with people willing to get the job done for us. I have found that there is a rally planned at the State House in Augusta, Maine on November 7th to deliver a "One Year Notice" to our representatives, and I plan to join that rally. The politicians will be put on notice that they have one year to take action to do what is needed, and that if they fail they will be kicked out come next election. I read about the rally in the Groups tab of the Oath Keepers website, where groups are listed for each state. There may be similar events planned in your own states. Sign In to Oath Keepers - Oath Keepers

There is also a good organization called The "Kick Them All Out" Project, where the motto is, "A non-violent battle plan for the next great American Revolution." The Kick Them All Out Project - Imposing our undeniable will on the government through the power of our votes! Lots of good links, ideas, and information at this site.

Best regards to all,

Rick
__________________
 

Last edited by rickoff; 10-17-2009 at 07:30 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 10-17-2009, 08:26 AM
bugler bugler is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 390
For information on the ruling elite there are several good books.

One of them is David Duke "Jewish supremacism".
Whatever you think of Duke for his past the book is an excelent account of what's going on in the world today and in the past.

Money is created as debt to central banks so those controlling the central banks contro the world. With that money you can buy the police, judges, media and everything else.

Who control the central banks? Yeah.

Tell me whom can't be critized and I will tell you who rule the world.
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 10-17-2009, 03:25 PM
Ted Ewert Ted Ewert is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 597
Quote:
Originally Posted by ANTIQUER View Post
Hi Ted;

I agree with much of what you said, but not all.



Ignorance is not evil; taking advantage of ignorance is evil. Is that what you meant, taking advantage of an ignorant population is evil?
I use ignorance and evil interchangeably because there really is no difference. Evil stems directly from ignorance of love. Anyone who fully accepts love into their heart cannot express evil.
This world is based on the concept of duality. As such there is truth and "not truth". God is truth, God is love. Ignorance of truth is ignorance of love. This is where hate and evil come from. God gives us free will, a brain and the ability to choose either. Our spiritual growth is based on the choices we make.
Quote:
The reality of creation is a dream of the creator ? What are the spiritual origins of this world? A further explanation, please.

Thanks,

Al
A common concept in western civilization is that God created the world and then sort of sat back and let it go. I believe this to be incorrect.
All forms of creation start with a thought. Thought is the creative energy behind all manifestations. Thoughts are powerful things.
Matter is nothing more than congealed energy. Energy is nothing more than focused thought. God thinks and wills His creation into "our" reality. If God were to ever stop willing His universe into existence, our world would absolutely cease instantly.
We interpret this world as real only because we don't have a conscious alternative to compare it to. This is necessary for us to be here and to play our part in this drama.
Just as our access to the complete knowledge base of technologies has been kept from us, so has the metaphysical origins of who we are been obscured.
Knowledge is power, and those who would seek to control this world hoard it and keep it secret. Whatever they can't keep secret is distorted, discredited and disputed in order to maintain confusion and ignorance among the masses.
Blindly accepting what we are taught in school, in church and in the media as being the best of man's efforts to understand the truth is folly. It takes work and courage to determine what's actually true. The reward for this effort is usually scorn and ridicule from your fellow sheep, but at least it tells you that you're probably on the right track.

Cheers,

Ted
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 10-17-2009, 04:42 PM
future pather's Avatar
future pather future pather is offline
Energetic Science Practitioner
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: California
Posts: 1,949
Al,

I would never say your interpretation is wrong. I like it and am glad you shared it.

I do see the Bible as sort of an infinite fractal of metaphors and lessons so I still also see my point.

For example, the fig tree was specifically described as not being in season and therefor not having fruit (to me this shows it is innocent and not at fault).

Jesus had said he could move mountains, he walked on water, made food multiply, etc. He certainly could have caused the tree to bear fruit instead of cursing it.

Also although it is not in every book, in the book of Matthew here is the quote right before Jesus dies:

46About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi,[a] lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"


Matthew 27:46 - Passage*Lookup - New International Version - BibleGateway.com

I don't see any other way to interpret that except for a loss of faith. It's basically the definition of loss of faith.

And I see it as similar to the fig tree and the overturning of the tables.

I think in order to die Jesus had to let go of his faith for a little bit.
__________________
Keep your mind on the aether www.PathsToSucceed.com
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 10-17-2009, 08:48 PM
rickoff's Avatar
rickoff rickoff is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Maine, USA
Posts: 3,291
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Ewert View Post
Blindly accepting what we are taught in school, in church and in the media as being the best of man's efforts to understand the truth is folly. It takes work and courage to determine what's actually true. The reward for this effort is usually scorn and ridicule from your fellow sheep, but at least it tells you that you're probably on the right track.
Amen to that, Ted.

So many people are willing to accept everything they see, hear, and are taught, at face value - and without question. To them, the only questions that arise occur when they are exposed to alternative realities, and then they only seek to question the sanity and motives of the messengers. Their original "reality" goes unquestioned because it is so deeply ingrained that any suggestion it is false belief is practically unthinkable. I guess that I would be seen by many as being one of the "oddball" people in this world, because all my life I have questioned authority and stood against it when I believed that persons with authority over others were abusing it. Ben Franklin once said, "
It is the first responsibility of every citizen to question authority," and I firmly believe in that wisdom. Other Franklin quotes, that I feel are especially relevant to this thread are as follows:
  • Quote:
  • "No man's life, liberty or fortune is safe while our legislature is in session."
  • "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!"
  • "Make yourselves sheep and the wolves will eat you."
  • "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
  • "We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately."
  • Regarding the media - "Printers are educated in the Belief, that when Men differ in Opinion, both sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Public; and that when Truth and Error have fair play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter: Hence [printers] cheerfully serve all contending Writers that pay them well, without regarding on which side they are of the Question in Dispute."
  • "As all history informs us, there has been in every State & Kingdom a constant kind of warfare between the governing & governed: the one striving to obtain more for its support, and the other to pay less. And this has alone occasioned great convulsions, actual civil wars, ending either in dethroning of the Princes, or enslaving of the people. Generally indeed the ruling power carries its point, the revenues of princes constantly increasing, and we see that they are never satisfied, but always in want of more. The more the people are discontented with the oppression of taxes, the greater need the prince has of money to distribute among his partisans and pay the troops that are to suppress all resistance and enable him to plunder at pleasure. There is scarce a king in a hundred who would not, if he could, follow the example of Pharaoh; get first all the peoples money, then all their lands, and then make them and their children servants for ever."

  • "Life's tragedy is that we get old too soon and wise too late."
  • "Man will ultimately be governed by God or by tyrants."
  • "A nation of well informed men who have been taught to know and prize the rights which God has given them cannot be enslaved. It is in the region of ignorance that tyranny begins."
One more quote for you:

Quote:
Seek wisdom by keeping an open mind to alternative realities, questioning authority, and searching for truth. Only then, when you see or hear something that has "the ring of truth" to it, will it be as if a veil has been lifted, and suddenly you will begin to hear and see far more clearly than ever before. - Rick
__________________
 

Last edited by rickoff; 01-09-2010 at 03:30 AM. Reason: sp
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 10-17-2009, 09:32 PM
future pather's Avatar
future pather future pather is offline
Energetic Science Practitioner
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: California
Posts: 1,949
Quote:
Originally Posted by ANTIQUER View Post
VII. It represents the state of the nation and people of the Jews in particular; they were a fig-tree planted in Christ's way, as a church. observe the disappointment they gave to our Lord Jesus. He came among them, expecting to find some fruit.
VII. He passed upon them, that never any fruit should grow upon them or be gathered from them, as a church or as a people, from henceforward for ever. Never any good came from them (except the particular persons among them that believe), after they rejected Christ.

I use excerpts from Henry's commentaries. If you care to read it all it is here;

Matthew 21 Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible

Jessica, I believe in "rightly dividing the truth" (II Tim. 2:15). I hope I have helped to show you what really went on here and why.

Sincerely,

Al
I do have to say about the part vii, that's kind of a strange way of looking at it. The Jewish people are the root a la Romans. Grafts have a harder time living without a root than roots do without the graft. It can depend but usually a graft is put in in addition to many other branches.

To say no good came of the root isn't how I see it, the root supports the graft.

Yes there were some people who were obstacles but the greater # of Jewish people in Jesus time (Jesus who was Jewish and who's mother and family were) followed him around in huge crowds (which he was usually trying in vein to dodge to get a little meditation time) to hear him teach and experience him healing.

1I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3"Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me"[a]? 4And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal."[b] 5So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.[c]

7What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8as it is written:
"God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes so that they could not see
and ears so that they could not hear,
to this very day."[d] 9And David says:
"May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever."[e]
Ingrafted Branches
11Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!

13I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
All Israel Will Be Saved
25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this is[f] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."[g]

28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Doxology
33Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and[i] knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
34"Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?"[j]
35"Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay him?"[k]
36For from him and through him and to him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.

Romans 11 - Passage*Lookup - New International Version - BibleGateway.com

__________________
Keep your mind on the aether www.PathsToSucceed.com
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



Please consider supporting Energetic Forum with a voluntary monthly subscription.

For One-Time Donations, use admin@ this domain > energeticforum.com

Choose your voluntary subscription

All times are GMT. The time now is 08:35 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v1.4.0 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Shoutbox provided by vBShout v6.2.8 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
2007-2015 Copyright - Energetic Forum - All Rights Reserved

Bedini RPX Sideband Generator

Tesla Chargers