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  #5461  
Old 10-02-2014, 04:52 AM
aljhoa aljhoa is offline
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Originally Posted by TheoriaApophasis View Post
Did someone buy you one of those "Conspiracy a Day" calendars as a Xmas gift?
The September 2014 states "to control guns is only to control the normal citizen".


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  #5462  
Old 10-02-2014, 04:55 AM
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The September 2014 states "to control guns is only to control the normal citizen".


Al



that's correct. Did you know that Im a concealed carry INSTRUCTOR?

......and that I own my own shooting range?


enough said.





However that information is no conspiracy (yours above), just common sense....

which isnt that common
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  #5463  
Old 10-02-2014, 05:29 AM
indio007 indio007 is offline
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Originally Posted by TheoriaApophasis View Post
Did someone buy you one of those "Conspiracy a Day" calendars as a Xmas gift?

I'll get you one. The cover will be the al-Qaeda conspiracy theory.


“In our investigation, we have not uncovered a single piece of paper either here in the United States or in the treasure trove of information that has turned up in Afghanistan and elsewhere that mentioned any aspect of the September 11 plot.”

-FBI Director Mueller
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  #5464  
Old 10-02-2014, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheoriaApophasis View Post
Did someone buy you one of those "Conspiracy a Day" calendars as a Xmas gift?
It appears that you were referencing my post #5459 in making this snide remark. If you have an opposing viewpoint which you believe is a better explanation than the one I offered, or can show where my statements regarding rigged elections in the United States are inaccurate, then by all means lets see what you have to offer. On the other hand, if you have nothing meaningful to offer as a contribution, and are only here as an Internet Troll with the sole purpose of disrupting this thread then please cease and desist posting here and move on.
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  #5465  
Old 10-02-2014, 05:41 PM
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TheoriaApophasis TheoriaApophasis is offline
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my statements regarding rigged elections in the United States are inaccurate


Of course, your unsubstantiated baseless claims utterly devoid of empirical evidence is certainly proof for anyone.

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  #5466  
Old 10-02-2014, 05:43 PM
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I'll get you one. The cover will be the al-Qaeda conspiracy theory.
“In our investigation, we have not uncovered a single piece of paper either here in the United States or in the treasure trove of information that has turned up in Afghanistan and elsewhere that mentioned any aspect of the September 11 plot.”
-FBI Director Mueller



Ive never seen a penguin here in south Florida

They must not exist, logically so. Fantastical creatures to be sure.




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  #5467  
Old 10-02-2014, 06:15 PM
aljhoa aljhoa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aljhoa View Post
The September 2014 states "to control guns is only to control the normal citizen".
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheoriaApophasis View Post
that's correct. Did you know that Im a concealed carry INSTRUCTOR?
......and that I own my own shooting range?

enough said.

However that information is no conspiracy (yours above), just common sense....

which isnt that common
Gun politics in Switzerland are unique in Europe. The vast majority of men between the ages of 20 and 30 are conscripted into the militia and undergo military training, including weapons training. The personal weapons of the militia are kept at home as part of the military obligations...

The Swiss army has long been a militia trained and structured to rapidly respond against foreign aggression. Swiss males grow up expecting to undergo basic military training, usually at age 20 in the Rekrutenschule (recruit school), the basic-training camp, after which Swiss men remain part of the "militia" in reserve capacity until age 30 (age 34 for officers).

Each soldier is required to keep his army-issued personal weapon (the 5.56x45mm SIG SG 550 rifle for enlisted personnel and/or the 9mm SIG P220 semi-automatic pistol for officers, military police, medical and postal personnel) at home

Gun politics in Switzerland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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  #5468  
Old 10-02-2014, 07:54 PM
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TheoriaApophasis TheoriaApophasis is offline
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Oh yes, I know all bout' the Swiss and their gun policies.



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  #5469  
Old 10-02-2014, 11:11 PM
indio007 indio007 is offline
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Originally Posted by TheoriaApophasis View Post
Ive never seen a penguin here in south Florida

They must not exist, logically so. Fantastical creatures to be sure.




Red herring as usual.

The point was to illustrate that the flimsiest conspiracy theory is the al-Qaeda one.


When it comes to the law, "Evidence not appearing is presumed not to exist."
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  #5470  
Old 10-03-2014, 01:40 PM
aljhoa aljhoa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aljhoa View Post
The September 2014 states "to control guns is only to control the normal citizen".
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheoriaApophasis View Post
that's correct. Did you know that Im a concealed carry INSTRUCTOR?
......and that I own my own shooting range?

enough said.

However that information is no conspiracy (yours above), just common sense....

which isnt that common

Quote:
Originally Posted by aljhoa View Post
Gun politics in Switzerland are unique in Europe. The vast majority of men between the ages of 20 and 30 are conscripted into the militia and undergo military training, including weapons training. The personal weapons of the militia are kept at home as part of the military obligations...

The Swiss army has long been a militia trained and structured to rapidly respond against foreign aggression. Swiss males grow up expecting to undergo basic military training, usually at age 20 in the Rekrutenschule (recruit school), the basic-training camp, after which Swiss men remain part of the "militia" in reserve capacity until age 30 (age 34 for officers).

Each soldier is required to keep his army-issued personal weapon (the 5.56x45mm SIG SG 550 rifle for enlisted personnel and/or the 9mm SIG P220 semi-automatic pistol for officers, military police, medical and postal personnel) at home

Gun politics in Switzerland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
“As for Stalin,” Bartov continued, “the very idea of either gun control or the freedom to bear arms would have been absurd to him. His regime used violence on a vast scale, provided arms to thugs of all descriptions, and stripped not guns but any human image from those it declared to be its enemies. And then, when it needed them, as in WWII, it took millions of men out of the Gulags, trained and armed them and sent them to fight Hitler, only to send back the few survivors into the camps if they uttered any criticism of the regime.”
The Hitler gun control lie - Salon.com


Controversy arose over a September 8 city-wide order by New Orleans Police Superintendent Eddie Compass to local police, U.S. Army National Guard soldiers, and Deputy U.S. Marshals to confiscate all civilian-held firearms. "No one will be able to be armed," Compass said. "Guns will be taken. Only law enforcement will be allowed to have guns." Seizures were carried out without warrant, and in some cases with excessive force; one instance captured on film involved 58 year old New Orleans resident Patricia Konie. Konie stayed behind, in her well provisioned home, and had an old revolver for protection. A group of police entered the house, and when she refused to surrender her revolver, she was tackled and it was removed by force. Konie's shoulder was fractured, and she was taken into police custody for failing to surrender her firearm.
Criticism of government response to Hurricane Katrina - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Al
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  #5471  
Old 10-03-2014, 03:39 PM
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@theoriaapophasis: Delete your post #5466, and DO NOT post anything again in which you take what I have said out of context to intentionally make it appear that I have stated something other than what I actually stated. You are walking on very thin ice, so be careful.
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  #5472  
Old 10-04-2014, 12:50 AM
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Originally Posted by TheoriaApophasis View Post
that's correct. Did you know that Im a concealed carry INSTRUCTOR?

......and that I own my own shooting range?


enough said.

So basically you teach law abiding "citizens" how to properly hide or wear a weapon so its not detected and how not to shoot themselves in the foot. I understand the schooling part of it all but not the regulations of it all.

What a joke with all the laws and all the regulations people submit to ... just like the lines at the southern border where US citizens are almost stripped searched, questioned to no end, and have to almost give their right arm and first born child just to re-enter their own country while just a mile away 50,000 underage South American children are walking across the border each month along with mules carrying tons of drugs.

Criminals are self taught in how to carry a concealed weapon and how to hide it well enough not to get caught with it. They also know how to dispose of it or move it if they happen to use it in the commission of a crime.

For criminals the entire world is their shooting range and they don't have to go around bragging to make any points that they own their own private shooting range.

I'll tell you right now that all the gun /military training in the world won't help you when the SHTF other than to make you overconfident enough to get yourself in a big wreck.
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  #5473  
Old 10-04-2014, 02:54 AM
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blah blah.


Tell that to your politicians.


I dont make laws or policy.
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  #5474  
Old 10-04-2014, 03:29 PM
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Yes, Rick

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Most of us have by now seen the televised images of multitudes of people on the streets of Hong Kong who are protesting the manner in which elections are carried out. While these people do have the right to vote for a candidate, they say that what they want is the right to choose the candidates that they will be voting for, rather than the Chinese Ruling Class choosing them. Folks there say they want to have a voting system like ours, but what they don't seem to understand is that they already have the same system. As we know, the American Ruling Class are the ones who actually dictate who our candidates will be, and any candidate (such as Ron Paul, for example) who actually succeeds, through grassroots efforts, at winning primary elections is effectively canceled out afterwards by any means necessary.

I'm not sure whether I should be laughing or crying when I see people in our country expressing the opinion that they hope the Hong Kong people will succeed in their quest to attain a voting system more like ours. The only difference, really, is that the Chinese Ruling Class rules with an iron fist which they do not attempt to disguise, while the American Ruling Class creates an illusion (which most people buy into) that whatever takes place politically is the result of us exercising our freedom of choice.
This is similar to when, (a couple of months ago) Obummer was saying he wasn't prepared to invest militarily in Iraq (my words, but the essence of what he was saying) because there Government couldn't work together.

He actually said something like 'Its too bad they don't have a Government like western Governments (Ours?) and was meaning where disagreeing parties can work together for the common good.

The 'American Dream', is the American nightmare, our Government corruption is simply more institutionalised, and less 'local',...and as you say, our elections are controlled so our 'choices' are not REAL choices. Whatever you make think of him, you can add Perot to the list, along with Ron Paul.

The 2 political parties won't hesitate to collude together, to do whatever they need to (dirty tricks) to shaft anyone who tries to either by third party, (as in Perot) or trying to work within the party (as in Ron Paul) upset their applecart.

Perhaps the ONLY difference between the U.S. and other countries, is the Delusion?,.....America; the land of DELUSION. We Delude ourselves that our system isn't corrupt, like 'those other countries',...that our leaders CAN work together for the common good, that we have a 'real' choice come election time.

The description of how Switzerland handles their military and gun control sounds to me a lot like my impression of how the Founding Fathers visualised it would work, here. Too bad we didn't stick with the plan!

Regarding the current storm, I have long expressed doubts regarding conspiracies, and think that many things which are seen as conspiracies are simply a combination of ineptitude, incompetence and human nature.

My posts regarding "Ipso Proc, ergo Proctor hoc" sorry if I've got it wrong, my Latin isn't the best. But I see no VALUE in being derogatory, or insulting to those who see things otherwise.

What part of "I talk (or post) about how it is for ME, WITHOUT MAKING OTHERS WRONG is so hard to grasp, or implement?

I disagree, generally, with those of a (politically) liberal view. I MAY even refer to a 'nanny state'. But I don't refer to those who have these political beliefs as idiots, children, etc. They have their views, and I have mine. Its NOT that hard, if one wants to try. If one doesn't then they obviously have some personal issues they need to work on, and are mistakenly thinking this forum and thread are the place to work on them.
I come back to my earlier conclusion, the ONLY way to address a 'troll' (other than banishment, which I'm fine with) is to quit feeding it. Jim
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  #5475  
Old 10-05-2014, 05:58 AM
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@All

@All,

Rick started this thread long ago for the purpose of open and respectful sharing of these controversial topics. Disagreements are inevitable, but they must be done respectfully. Name calling, insults, etc... are all inappropriate behavior that is not welcome here. Rick started this discussion and is always respectful to others and the same is expected of everyone.
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  #5476  
Old 10-05-2014, 04:51 PM
aljhoa aljhoa is offline
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Originally Posted by TheoriaApophasis View Post
However that information is no conspiracy (yours above), just common sense....

which isnt that common
Which corporation has the most to gain from "to control guns is only to control the normal citizen"?


Al
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  #5477  
Old 10-06-2014, 04:45 PM
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Rick, (and everyone)

Read this link here and let me know what you think. Interestingly right on the mark and if true the American people still sit by and won't do anything to stop "their" government.

WORLD WAR III FOR DUMMIES
There are several interesting and well written articles at the site, and the excerpts I have read appear to be in agreement with themes presented in our American Ruling Class thread. I see that they call the Ruling Class the PRC (Predatory Ruling Class), which is certainly an appropriate designation.

I believe that a vast majority of the American People do see that, as Reagan pointed out in his 1981 Innaugural Address, "In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem." The solution to this, however, is not understood by the vast majority, who tend to believe that the problem with "government" can be solved through elections. That has never worked to solve anything, and never will as long as elections are rigged and the People continue to believe that the conflict is between Republicans and Democrats. The real conflict is between the American People and the American Ruling Class, and can only be won if the People come to realize this and take the necessary steps to depose the Ruling Class tyrants.

The first step is in understanding that those people currently seated in our national and state government offices are not our government, and are merely corporate officers. The second step is in understanding that all governmental power is inherent in the People, and that we therefore have the power to bring about the necessary changes that will restore and protect our liberties. The third step is to join with a group of like-minded individuals who are actively working to pursue those objectives.
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  #5478  
Old 10-07-2014, 03:54 AM
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The first step is in understanding that those people currently seated in our national and state government offices are not our government, and are merely corporate officers.

The second step is in understanding that all governmental power is inherent in the People, and that we therefore have the power to bring about the necessary changes that will restore and protect our liberties.

The third step is to join with a group of like-minded individuals who are actively working to pursue those objectives.
Rickoff, I'd like to comment on these three steps as I think they are core to turning around the current trend.

Step one I completely agree with. I would also add this is corporatism. Corporations are clearly on board with the agenda. What bothers me is plenty of evidence has been dug up that no one should have any doubts at this stage, yet there are still many people that simply don't get it, or won't accept it, as in denial.

Step two is another one of those simple truths, yet again average people seem to be unaware of it or unable to mount enough defiance to have a positive effect. I see it as US and THEM with THEM being completely corrupt and very powerful. No single individual seems to feel they can make a difference, so they wait for someone else to go first. I call it the, "Everybody want to be second" attitude.

Step three is where I'm on the fence. It would seem on the surface, a powerful, organized opposition would bring about positive change the quickest, much like a dedicated army. This I think now is a mistake. This is a game of asymmetric warfare. We have potentially superior numbers, yet we are being beaten badly. Time to rethink this...

I have been doing a fair amount of research into autonomous drones, small scale battery operated. What is being discovered is that if each drone is programmed to work independently while being aware of the other drone's progress, the overall effect of the group effort is enhanced significantly, especially in conditions of extreme adversity, where drones are being wrecked by the opposing forces. This is intriguing information I think we can use.

My alternate proposal for step three is that we need a simple common goal that can be executed completely independent without actual communicate between members of the resistance. This will greatly improve our performance given the large numbers we have and take advantage of our natural asymmetry.

There's a motto used by Fred Smith, chairman of FedEx Corporation that has been very effective within the various FedEx operating companies:

Operate independently, compete collectively and manage collaboratively.

My theory is we take something that works and make it work better, for us, for good.
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Old 10-07-2014, 07:41 PM
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TEMPORARY solution, at best?

Sorry, but history seems to affirm; The SOVIET system, was originally started to address the corrupt Czarist system. Haven't study much of Chinese history, but I suspect Mao 'sold' his brand of communism to 'overthrow' a corrupt system.

Certainly our Founding Fathers engaged in the revolution to overthrow the corrupt rule of King George. At least our FF's recognised the lesson of history, and the potential; that you can ONLY displace the current crop of corrupt power hungry manipulators; they are like busses; there will be another crop along shortly!

Whatever 'system' you put in place, over time these same TYPE of people,if not the exact same individuals, will figure out how to 'game' and 'work' the system.

They have TIME on their side, along with 'the peoples' apathy, ignorance, and 'natural' inclination to 'prefer the devil they know, to the one they don't';
to prefer status quo, even a bad but tolerable status quo, to 'the unknown'.

For MOST people, as long as their own ox isn't gored, and gored badly, they will continue to tolerate things, and hope they will get better.

I DO think there are less 'sheeple' than there used to be; I talk to neighbors, people standing in line, etc. and I find just about everyone i talk to seems to agree, and polls support this as well; that we are 'off on the wrong track'.

I personally wish it would be possible to get the majority of people who don't vote to register, and get those in the Tea party and those in the occupy movement, along with these (formerly) non-voters, to ALL vote "None of the above" (write in) in a National election! There would be far MORE votes for none of the above than for whoever (who cares!) actually wins, and I THINK it would be hard for the media to suppress such information.

Maybe it would be a wake up call? Overall, I'm not optimistic. I think civilisation is headed off the cliff, and deservedly so. Jim
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Old 10-08-2014, 04:25 PM
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Rickoff, I'd like to comment on these three steps as I think they are core to turning around the current trend.

Step three is where I'm on the fence. It would seem on the surface, a powerful, organized opposition would bring about positive change the quickest, much like a dedicated army. This I think now is a mistake. This is a game of asymmetric warfare. We have potentially superior numbers, yet we are being beaten badly. Time to rethink this...

I have been doing a fair amount of research into autonomous drones, small scale battery operated. What is being discovered is that if each drone is programmed to work independently while being aware of the other drone's progress, the overall effect of the group effort is enhanced significantly, especially in conditions of extreme adversity, where drones are being wrecked by the opposing forces. This is intriguing information I think we can use.

My alternate proposal for step three is that we need a simple common goal that can be executed completely independent without actual communicate between members of the resistance. This will greatly improve our performance given the large numbers we have and take advantage of our natural asymmetry.
Could you please explain how you would suggest that drones be utilized? Would they be purely for gathering intel, such as by camera mounted surveillance, or are you suggesting arming drones to equip them as killing machines?

To be clear, my step 3 suggestion (to join with a group of like-minded individuals who are actively working to pursue those objectives [bring about the necessary changes that will restore and protect our liberties]), is not a suggestion to develop or carry out warfare strategies. To my way of thinking, armed revolution is exactly what the Ruling Class hopes for, as it would then allow them to use whatever force is necessary to quash such a rebellion. I believe it is far more effective to confront the tyrants by exercising legal options which the Constitution provides the People, and that by exercising this power in the proper way and with large numbers of the People standing firmly to demand justice, justice will prevail.

You may not have read some of my earlier posts where I talk about the National Liberty Alliance (NLA) effort to establish People's Common Law Grand Juries (CLGJ's) in all counties of every state. The effort has now succeeded in constituting CLGJ's in all 3,133 counties of the united States of America. The idea behind this effort is that by exercising the power of the CLGJ's to indict corrupt law enforcement and Judicial officers, the People can restore truth and accountability to our legal system. And once that is accomplished, all other efforts to restore our Constitutional Republic, and thus our freedoms and liberties, will become accessible to us. Naturally, the Ruling Class operatives now ensconced in the corporation US judicial system have done, and will continue to do, everything possible to thwart this People's initiative. This has already involved failing to file court documents, dismissal of indictments filed by CLGJ's, jury tampering by a Florida Attorney General, and illegal reprisal against, and dismissal of, a CLGJ foreman for filing an indictment against that attorney. In so doing, however, the involved court officers then act illegally and implicate themselves in activities which will have dire consequences for them when they finally are prosecuted.

The NLA effort to establish court recognized CLGJ's began in New York, which has taken the lead in pursuing that goal through court actions. Having met strong resistance from the state of New York against complying with the NLA's Constitutionally backed request, the matter is now at the Federal level, where attempts to shelve and dismiss the case have so far been the method employed by the Federal court. The battle is far from over, though, and the NLA will continue to pursue this matter until true justice prevails.
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Old 10-08-2014, 04:44 PM
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Speaking of court actions, there is currently an appeal before the full District of Columbia appeals court to overturn a three judge panel's decision made earlier regarding an ObamaCare case. The case focuses on the fact that the corporation US Senate violated the Constitution's Origination Clause (Article 1, Section 7), which states that all matters involving new taxes must originate in the House of Representatives. Instead, 'Dirty Harry' simply took the bill number for an innocuous veterans housing program that had been approved by the House, and pasted it on the front of thousands of pages of Obamacare legislation before having the Senate vote to "amend" the House passed veterans bill, which had nothing whatsoever to do with taxes.
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Old 10-08-2014, 10:04 PM
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Could you please explain how you would suggest that drones be utilized? Would they be purely for gathering intel, such as by camera mounted surveillance, or are you suggesting arming drones to equip them as killing machines?
The drone example I mentioned was only to highlight the concept of individuals working together with a common goal, without continual coordinated communication or command structure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickoff View Post
To be clear, my step 3 suggestion (to join with a group of like-minded individuals who are actively working to pursue those objectives [bring about the necessary changes that will restore and protect our liberties]), is not a suggestion to develop or carry out warfare strategies. To my way of thinking, armed revolution is exactly what the Ruling Class hopes for, as it would then allow them to use whatever force is necessary to quash such a rebellion. I believe it is far more effective to confront the tyrants by exercising legal options which the Constitution provides the People, and that by exercising this power in the proper way and with large numbers of the People standing firmly to demand justice, justice will prevail.
Like it or not, this is warfare. It may not be the bloody, physical assault type warfare you see plastered all over TV, but I will assure you this is war. We either eliminate our enemies or they eliminate us. This war will continue to have many fronts: education, economic, legal, political and eventually in-the-street bloodshed. I'll simply leave it to the reader to decide where their abilities are best fit and most useful.

It's been said there are four boxes to be used in order when it comes to fighting tyranny:
  1. The soap box
  2. The ballot box
  3. The jury box
  4. The ammo box
I personally think all four of these boxes lack the resolve to ever restore our constitutional republic. After all, didn't our commander in chief declare this document to be nothing but a G.D. piece of paper? And with that statement declared, then obviously no one is enforcing it. Without enforcement, quite literally it no longer exists; it becomes as Hillary Clinton stated on-record, "A historical document."


In response to step three:

Personally, I refuse to join ANY group. If there are things I can do that happen to be similar to what others are doing, fine. I can support that effort. Why am I adamant about not joining any groups? I think Joseph Stalin cleared up any doubt when he said, and I'm paraphrasing, "The best way to control your opposition is to lead it." Simply put, a group becomes a juicy target to be infiltrated and taken over. I've watched this happen over and over and I still see people thinking the next time will be different. No, it won't.

What needs to happen is for the population at large to simply agree on a core principal, maybe the Bill of Rights, or Articles of Confederation, then individually do what they can to bring that into being. In the end, the only person you can count on to do what you think needs to be done, is that person you see in the mirror.
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Old 10-09-2014, 04:35 PM
dutchdivco dutchdivco is offline
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I understood Dog-one is making an ANALOGY, with the drones; that individual people need to act like these drones, (independently), while with a 'common goal', and taking into account what the others are doing.

And it is a tactic; its LIKE (analogy again) when they talk about 'lone-wolf' terrorists, who work independently of an organization who's ideology and tactics they agree with. So, to act politically, economically, etc. in this manner, to bring about change. Interesting concept, but still, as Dog-one posted, tactics need a strategy.

Rick, it seems to me, is posting both about strategy AND tactics; the strategy is to USE the legal system, to hold these barstuds to account, and wrest control from them, and get it 'back to the people'. And he has proposed a # of different tactics, all to this end; these Grand Juries, as well as earlier proposals for an alternative election of representatives, etc.

It IS a 'challenge'; HOW do you wrest power from those who have it? They certainly aren't going to give it up, willingly. It all comes down to the 'people', in the end. The people, or enough of them, have to become 'fed up' enough, that they are willing to accept an uncertain future, over the status quo.

When enough people reach that tipping point, (and it doesn't require anything like 100% of the population) they CAN bring about change. If say,...30% of the working population simply went 'on strike', and refused to go to work, until change occured, THAT would be enough to bring everything to a roaring screaching halt. Coarse, then you have to agree on your 'demands'; part of why the 'occupy' movement dissipated. And, as I posted and Dog-one said, there is always the probability that either the same TYPE of people, or even the same people, will 'infiltrate' any 'movement', and you'll end up, probably after bloodshed, with the same old wine, in a brand new bottle.

I really think the problem is more basic; its HUMAN nature, and the inevitable problem of CIVILISATION; we NEVER should have stopped 'hunter/gathering', NEVER should have 'settled down' in one place. But, short of a major world wide cataclism, which makes civilisation untenable, I don't see that happeneing. Even then, I suspect people would slowly tried to re-build civilisation, by once again, developing small settlements, which would grow, 'requiring' governments, and laws, and police and armies, etc.

And, 'those people', the bloodsuckers, would inevitably been drawn to the center of power, and it would start all over again. So, whats the use?,..I say.

But, I COULD be wrong, its just MY world view; I don't expect others to agree, and certainly don't think much less express derogatory views of those who see it differently. At least I TRY not to. Jim
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Old 10-10-2014, 02:04 AM
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Turion Turion is online now
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The old way

The original politicians in the good ol' USA met, got their work done quickly, and went back home to tend to their farms and ranches because THAT was how they made their living, and their "government work" was volunteered. When we began to pay politicians is when it all went down the toilet. Maybe the simple answer is a return to that way of doing things. You wouldn't have worthless pieces of crap as your representatives if they had to volunteer their time, and they sure as heck wouldn't waste it sitting on their butts doing NOTHING if they had to finish their "political business" and get back to making a living. Pay for their travel expenses and put them up in a barracks while Congress is in session. I bet they would get their stuff done in a hurry and get back home. And if being away from their real job is such a hardship, just have more Senators and Representatives from your state, each taking a month to be in Washington. There was a time when being a Senator or Representative was an honor and privilege. We need to get back to that.

Dave
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Old 10-10-2014, 03:33 AM
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TheoriaApophasis TheoriaApophasis is offline
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It IS a 'challenge'; HOW do you wrest power from those who have it? They certainly aren't going to give it up, willingly. It all comes down to the 'people', in the end.

.......said EVERY Socialist and EVERY Commie who EVER LIVED.



Is that you Karl Marx?

Is that you V. Lenin???????




Myself, .as a Russian translator who lived in Commie Russia for 4 years, MOST of you need to spend about 1 year there, THEN be allowed back into the USA.



utterly disgusting
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Old 10-10-2014, 02:00 PM
dutchdivco dutchdivco is offline
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Theo

Once again, you pontificate, coming from an emotional place. IF you had read thru this thread, from the first post to present, you would be able to put the current posts in context.

For instance, I am hardly a 'commie', socialist or even liberal. Politically, I would be a conservative/libertarian, small Government Reagan type.

Socialogically, (as I have posted many times before) I simply have concluded the Humans made a decision some 10-14,000 years ago, to stop being hunter/gatherers, and to 'settle' in one place, and everything flows from that; the development of Governments, taxes, wars, etc.

Possesions, disputes, etc. 'Over' population, living in conflict with the world instead of in 'harmony', and on and on. And, even the ever increasing % of the population that are sociopaths.

Humanity has 'promoted ourselves to our level of incompetence', to borrow from Peter Drucker. And this began when we collectively made this major change in lifestyle. This, and our basic human nature have lead us to where we are. Individually, we have all made mistakes in our lives. Individually, we have all made decisions which we later realise were not in our own best interests, we tend to put off doing things until a situation reaches a crises, when the situation requires far more effort to address, etc. We tend to be 'short sighted' in our decision making, and to not be able to see all the ramifications of our decisions and actions.

WHY do we continue to think that COLLECTIVELY we would act any different?
GOVERNMENT, and all our other institutions, are after all only made up of PEOPLE. When people say "we need GOVERNMENT to do "X", because only Government CAN do it", we are saying nonsense, since Government is just people.

So, I personally think humanity is 'doomed', is going to 'hell in a handbasket', and there is absolutely NOTHING any of us, individually or collectively, can DO about it. I think 'Civilisation' is a 10,000 year old 'failed' experiment, that we are continueing to 'prop' up, cause no one is willing to consider the alternative.

Anyway, if you find this so disgusting, WHY do you continue to post? Jim
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Old 10-10-2014, 03:59 PM
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Question Human Nature or Human Defect?

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And, even the ever increasing % of the population that are sociopaths.

So, I personally think humanity is 'doomed', is going to 'hell in a handbasket', and there is absolutely NOTHING any of us, individually or collectively, can DO about it. I think 'Civilisation' is a 10,000 year old 'failed' experiment, that we are continueing to 'prop' up, cause no one is willing to consider the alternative.
Good post Jim,

The only tiny piece I question is in regards to human nature. We aren't all sociopaths or psychopaths. I would be willing to go so far to say that if this form of human behavior was completely wiped from society, we could live in communities, peacefully without destroying our own future. I don't know if this human trait has origins in some people's DNA, or if it is learned, but when it becomes dominant that's when civilization begins to go off the rails. I see it clearly as a defect and not all people have it, but those that do strive for power and control. It's as if something is missing that makes a person aware of their connection to all other humans, all other living things, the planet as a whole.

Could this defect in the population ever be corrected or eliminated? Doubtful. Am I willing to consider the alternative? Do I really have any choice?
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Old 10-10-2014, 05:27 PM
aljhoa aljhoa is offline
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Human Nature or Human Defect?

Could this defect in the population ever be corrected or eliminated? Doubtful. Am I willing to consider the alternative? Do I really have any choice?
Human Nature / sociopaths
Human Defect / psychopaths


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Old 10-10-2014, 09:41 PM
dutchdivco dutchdivco is offline
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Dog-one

Done some research on sociopaths, as well as having some personal experience. I would say it is bot; genetic, and CAN be a 'learned' responce.
Mainly, I believe it is a 'random' genetic mutation that occurs in individuals.

But, apply Darwins theory to it; in a hunter/gatherer society, 25 to 250 (max) individuals, living together in a very close knit, interdependent community, where co-operation is essential, for the individual AND the group, a sociopath would gradually 'burn' their relationships with everyone in the group, and be banished, greatly decreasing their chances to procreate, and pass on their mutation.

In contrast, our modern society actually is breeding sociopaths, and in our society, where you can 're-invent' yourself and move from neighborhood to neighborhood and job to job, (finding an endless source of new victims), and use the 'benefits' of being a sociopath to improve your status in society and increase your likelyhood of procreating.

There are studies indicating sociopaths, as a percentage of the whole, are definetly on the increase. Darwin would say that it because they have survival advantages over non-sociopaths, and if society doesn't change, so that they no longer have such an advantage, eventually everyone will be sociopaths.

Actually, when I was talking about 'human nature', I wasn't talking so much about sociopaths, as about common traits we all have; a tendency to avoid addressing a problem, until it becomes a crises, a tendency to look short term, etc. Many of these are ways of thinking which evolved over our 100 thousand plus years as hunter/gatherers, but simply don't 'serve' us well, today.
For instance, there is nothing in such heritage, that really prepares us for dealing with financial matters.
As a H/G, if you go into an area and have very poor hunting, you tend to avoid that area; there is an expectation that a bad (or good, for that matter) experience will be repeated, and it makes sense, and was 'passed on'.

However, when you look at how most people invest in the stock market, where they are applying this way of thinking, they do poorly. The time to invest in a stock is when it is DOWN, yet most people invest when it is way up. This is what leads to 'financial bubbles', and even the 'pro's' fall for it.

Anyway, this is one example. Another is our preference (generally) for 'skyscrapers'; go to any city, anywhere in the world, and whether it is commercial or residencial, the higher you go, the higher the rent; we have a subliminal preference for living high up, where we can see a long ways.

As H/G's, this makes sense; even a little elevation can greatly improve your ability to see danger coming, a long ways a way. So, on a subliminal level, we like having such a view, although we don't consciously know why, and we are even willing to pay more for it.

But, are we really safer, being higher in a sky scraper? There's not just 911, where the people at the top got killed, and the people lower down were able to get out, (assuming you believe that, of coarse). Logically, in the event of a fire, which has happened many times, being on the second or 3rd floor greatly increases the likelyhood you'll get out alive, as opposed to being in the penthouse.

So, made logical sense as H/G's, not so much as modern 'civilised' humans living in our society.

We have no 'wiring' in our brains to deal with chronic, specific threats. And so you see someone railing about a news story of BPH (or whatever it is) being put in plastic food containers, that may cause Cancer. Meanwhile, they are smoking a pack a day, breathing dirty air, living in an earhtquake zone, etc.

People living in these orest fire zones, who evacuate with the clothes on their back, and no plan, etc. We just don't deal well with CHRONIC threats, cause our H/G ancestors didn't face (at least KNOWINGLY) chronic, ongoing threats, and so we aren't wired to deal with them. Anyway, these are some of the aspects of human nature I was talking about. I think 'evolution' doesn't occur quickly enough for us to have adapted to the phenominal amount of change thats occurreed in only 10,000 years. Or, perhaps sociopaths ARE an example of such a change. Jim
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Old 10-10-2014, 09:52 PM
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TheoriaApophasis TheoriaApophasis is offline
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Originally Posted by dutchdivco View Post
So, I personally think humanity is 'doomed', is going to 'hell in a handbasket', and there is absolutely NOTHING any of us, individually or collectively, can DO about it

nobody cares what you think, people only care about the FACTS.



The Swiss, Norway, Sweden, Finland etc etc. have roughly 80% of the worlds bunkers
There is plenty that HAS BEEN, IS, and CAN be done.

The cockroaches of humanity never prepare, for them there IS nothing to do.

You speak about THEM, (or yourself as well), and ONLY for them.




The cream rises to the top


Every 1000 years or so, the COCKROACHES are eliminated and the strong survive.

Nature always spring cleans her cockroaches out.



You, son, cannot see the forest for the trees,...... but this is VERY COMMON fare for myopic peoples.
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