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Old 09-02-2009, 03:12 AM
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Think i found some missing info from Tesla's radiant energy patent

YouTube - Update 30 - Found missing info from Tesla Radiant Energy Patent

Think i found some missing info from tesla's radiant energy patent.
I am theorising based on this info that the elevated plate was negatively charged prior and possibly even the ground plate is positively charged prior using an electrophorus or large bank of batteries. This would provide a condenser in series with the plates and the environment just as he mentions in the patent that they are in "series". The jj thomson document mentions that the charge doesnt appear unless the plate is negatively charged prior

Let the experiments begin!!!
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Old 09-02-2009, 03:29 AM
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Excellent theory.. Worthy of experimentation..

Go to the top of the class..!
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Old 09-02-2009, 06:16 AM
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Nat

You may find the scans below of intrest.

Last edited by john_g : 11-01-2010 at 11:19 AM.
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Old 09-02-2009, 06:23 AM
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negative ions

In thinking about this a bit, an experiment to exploit Tesla's idea here might be able to utilize many different ways of producing negative ions near or onto the collector plate.

[] Salt crystal lamps are known to emit negative ions
[] or a low power negative ion generator could be used
[] falling water -- waterfalls or water sprays -- produces negative ions

Negative ions have health benefits as well as mental/mood benefits.

Perhaps there is an inexpensive or low-energy way of producing
negative charges.
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Old 09-02-2009, 02:06 PM
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Free Energy

Hamster + wheel = motion.

Put a belt on the hamster wheel that acts as a pulley on another wheel made of glass or plastic. Turn the whole thing into a Vaan De Graff Generator. Take the output of the HaamsteGraff through tesla's air ionizer.

Well the energy would cost you cleaning his cage, unless you had free range hamsters that fed off of the ambient environment (a field nearby)

Thats the free-est cheapest way I could come up with getting ions, if you didn't live near a waterfall.
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Old 09-03-2009, 12:24 AM
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Thanks all for the great feedback and comments!!
After reading john_g’s documents it occurred to me that there must be something else that is missing from the patent as you would expect.

In Tesla’s article ROENTGEN RAY INVESTIGATIONS* 22 april 1896 he mentions that he is experimenting with roentgen ray vacuum tubes immersed in oil and that he is taking xrays at 45 feet away from the tube. That is amazing. From what I have read of some of the other experimenters work of the time no-one else was doing anything like this. This statement made me think that the oil immersion was somehow special to these magnifying effects.

Then on june 17th 1896 he files an application for a patent on a oil condenser 567 818 which he gets later on September 15th
And then another patent on oil condensers 577 671 in 1897
This makes me think that he has discovered around this time the remote charging of the condensers around this time with his roentgen ray vacuum tubes .
Also makes me wonder whether the elevated plate in the radiant energy patent is immersed in oil…..or perhaps a elevated sphere with oil inside…only some experiments will confirm this…..as this would combine the features of the roengten ray vacuum tube in the sense that it incorporates both advantages – Low vacuum pressure and the advantages of the oil as demonstrated by the magnifying effects.

Also it is mentioned that the rays travel in straight lines. Perhaps the ground plate and the elevated plate need to be in a straight line from the source of the rays. I was watching a discovery channel show on the sun and they also mentioned that the neutrinos (radiant energy/cosmic rays) travel in straight lines. The Egyptians also show the sun with its rays travelling in straight lines.
Cheers
Nat
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Old 09-03-2009, 04:35 AM
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Relative static permittivity

Linear relative permittivity of vacuum is equal to 1.
Quantum effects are predicted at high field strengths.
Supposedly this has NOT been observed -- or not by anyone
who cared to publish.

It occurs to me that if you created a large copper or aluminum PLATE that
was surrounded by a material that had a LARGE
relative static permittivity, not only would the capacitance be
LARGE -- and hence its ability to hold a LARGE negative charge
for a LONGER time constant -- but also in Tesla patent mentioned above, it could possibly serve as a better collector of radiant energy.

So what has a LARGE relative static permittivity?

Water at 0 degrees C has a decent value of 88.
Tesla has a patent discussing the interesting properties of
ICE. Patent 685,012 discusses the importance of coiling
to "increase the intensity and duration".
I recall reading other things by Tesla about ICE.
Those in such climates can exploit the COLD to their
advantage perhaps for electrical equipment.

Graphite is EASY to get - cheap -- has a value of 10 to 15.

Ammonia is interesting with a value of 17 @ 20 degrees C.

Titanium dioxide has a value of 86 to 173.

Strontium titanate ... a wopping 310.

(La,Nb)Zr,Ti)PbO3 : 500-6000

Conjugated polymers: 1.8-6 up to 100000

μm–nm heterostructures: 1.8-6 up to 100000


Another patent that is very interesting is Tesla's patent 1,266,175.
In this he proposes an improvement to Ben Franklin's
"Lightning-Protector".
He discusses how Ben's design is bad in that it actually
attracts lightning -- showing how Maxwell's math argues for
a sphere and not a POINTY rod.

I suspect Tesla had a different purpose with patent 1,266,175.
The patent is not so he can sell new lightning rods to every
home in the world. The purpose is to TEACH all of us
these concepts in terms of POINTY vs. spherical with
respect to BOLTs of energy.

If you look inside an ion generator, you see a matrix
of POINTY little pins that the ions form on when its plugged in.

It is likely that pointy pin structures and spherical structures
are important for an energy collector ... and understanding
these geometries is a good start.
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Old 09-03-2009, 05:02 AM
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lightning catcher

One predicted outcome of the global climate change and the
strange sun cycle is the advent of super storms.

We have seen some large storms and more may be due as we
approach 2012.

Collecting SOLAR energy and WIND energy is great.

I am very surprised that no one as yet has thought of collecting
LIGHTNING. This is a storm chaser's dream.

Yes this sounds like a Frankenstien idea but actually its a Tesla idea.
Tesla is the prototypical "mad scientist", trying to harness lightning.

It wouldn't make sense, necessarily to build a facility to
harness lightning. Rather, it might make more sense to
build a MOBILE facility. Take the facility to the storm.

Lasers can be used to ionize and impose a charge
to create a column for the lightning strike.
Carefully constructed receivers could be raised that
safely take the lightning HIT and bring the energy
down into the system.
The physics are pretty well understood ..
but this is dangerous ... so the person attempting this
would have to really know their stuff.

It might be possible to create a large quantity of hydrogen
from several lightning strikes.
One could also charge those LARGE batteries
such as ones made by ZBB Energy Corp.

If such a machine could be made ... this would be
the most BAD-ASS job in the world to do.
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Old 09-03-2009, 05:35 AM
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I like your idea about the ICE!!!

That is one simple experiment...Try an elevated negatively charged plate with ice on top of it or below it or both. And a positively charged ground plate.

The oil that Tesla was referring to was paraffin and from what i gather causes a diffraction effect (ie scattering effect)

The lightning idea is beyond my skill set. But i will look at the patent again anyway.

Cheers

Nat
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Old 09-03-2009, 05:56 AM
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negative ion generator

btw, I have in my bathroom, for experimentation purposes,
two glass panes 2ft by 5ft (or so) with two aluminum strips
between them -- as a sort of Tesla collector.

Last night I attached this to my voltmeter and ground -- set
it to AC and measure approx. 1 volt RMS (or so).
With the florescent lights in the room, the voltage drops.
Kill the lights, and the voltage increases on the collector.
The lights are dampening or attenuating the reception on these
plates.
These CFL lights could be a source of positive ions
(which irritate human beings btw).

I then put my negative ion generator up near the plates and
turned it on.

The voltage measure from the plates popped up to 2.5 volts AC RMS
or so.

So this simple experiment demonstrates this idea of creating
negative ions NEAR your collector plates.
Certainly pre-charging the plates to a very HIGH negative charge
would be more dramatic voltage-wise.
I predict, though, that the plates will be LOSSY and the
charge will dissipate depending on your capacitance and
resistance. Household aluminum foil is very resistive ... so not
very ideal here.
My plates are not big enough.

The thing about capacitors are that you need to make
them physically LARGE
OR
use a dielectric (the bigger the better as discussed above).
YES ICE sounds like a cool idea. :-)

Another idea, that won't melt, is to use
CARBON and PARAFFIN.
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Old 09-03-2009, 06:06 AM
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Yes you are correct about the negative precharging. The experiments i have looked at by jj thomson and others were using 200-300 volts of precharge. God knows what Tesla was using. I would imagine much much higher.

Interesting experiment you conducted! As Tesla said in the roengten rays article of 22april1896 94% of the rays remained unaccounted for. So something he did or discovered later must have captured more.

He certainly was investigating liquid insulaters as such....so paraffin or ICE are certainly good places to start some experiments with.

Cheers
Nat
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Old 09-03-2009, 07:30 AM
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i just had a vague recollection of Tesla using ice on his ground connection or was it water. I will have to double check that.

But having thought about it, this would mean that we would have a super conducting condenser (capacitor) in series with the wheel work of nature.

anyway something to ponder about................
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Old 09-03-2009, 09:04 AM
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For a long time Tesla stated that Roentgen rays are harmless up the the accident when x-rays burned skin of his assistant.
In my opinion Tesla thought that Roentgen rays is another kind of radiant energy he was experimenting with ,with different frequency probably.
The other statement from Tesla support that idea: he mentioned the perfect make&break device will only "crack" disallowing any back rush of current or AC oscillations.He said that the perfect vacuum would do the trick.Read below:

"The ideal medium for a discharge gap should only crack, and the ideal
electrode should be of some material which cannot be disintegrated.
With small currents through the gap it is best to employ aluminum, but
not when the currents are large. The disruptive break in the air, or more
or less in any ordinary medium, is not of the nature of a crack, but it is
rather comparable to the piercing of innumerable bullets through a mass
offering great frictional resistances to the motion of the bullets, this
involving considerable loss of energy. A medium which would merely
crack when strained electrostatically—and this possibly might be the
case with a perfect vacuum, that is, pure ether—would involve a very
small loss in the gap, so small as to be entirely negligible, at least
theoretically, because a crack may be produced by an infinitely small
displacement. In exhausting an oblong bulb provided with two
aluminum terminals, with the greatest care, I have succeeded in
producing such a vacuum that the secondary discharge of a disruptive
discharge coil would break disruptively through the bulb in the form of
fine spark streams. The curious point was that the discharge would
completely ignore the terminals and start far behind the two aluminum
plates which served as electrodes. This extraordinary high vacuum
could only be maintained for a very short while."

That was reported in 1893, and 1892 Tesla sent a few x-rays photographs to Roentgen.There are two curious facts : discharge placed behind electrodes and something which filled vacuum after short moment.This is also proof that Tesla generated x-rays, and he didn't realized that they were different then OTHERS rays,presumably very similar in features yet HARMLESS.

As I said in other thread : cathodic rays (electrons) suddenly stopped in vacuum produce x-rays , very widely investigated phenomena.
The question arises : what is produced when anode rays as suddenly stopped ????

Seems nobody was interested....
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Old 09-03-2009, 09:07 AM
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Here is example of anode rays : http://image.tutorvista.com/content/...roduction.jpeg

Tesla FOUND IT FIRST ! Compare that to his description of experiment from 1893 (or slightly earlier)
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Old 09-03-2009, 09:51 AM
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@boguslaw

I shall highlight the key parts of Tesla's radiant energy patent in response

Nikola Tesla - Method of Utilizing Radiant Energy - Patent No. 685,958

"It is well known that certain radiations - such as those of ultra-violet light, cathodic, Roentgen rays, or the like - possess the property of charging and discharging conductors of electricity, the discharge being particularly noticeable when the conductor upon which the rays impinge is negatively electrified......
... when rays or radiations of the above kind are permitted to fall upon an insulated conducting body connected to one of the terminals of a condenser, while the other terminal of the same is made by independant means to receive or to carry away electricity, a current flows into the condenser so long as the insulated body is exposed to the rays.

paragraph 40
Referring to Fig1 C is the condenser, P the insulated plate or conducting body which is exposed to the rays and P' another plate or conductor, all being joined in series
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Old 09-03-2009, 12:11 PM
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How could no one have seen this before! I feel as though you may have found the much needed push in the right direction when it comes to this patent, which really is the basis for Radiant Energy. I'll contribute where I can, or atleast try :P

Great work Nat

I just had a thought about this. What if Tesla's patent had to do with 'Roentgen Current' for those of you who don't know what it is it is basically the electrical current induced when a dielectric is moved within a homogeneous electric field. What if in this case it is the electric field moving and impinging on the plate inducing a current?

Last edited by Raui : 09-03-2009 at 01:24 PM.
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Old 09-03-2009, 05:53 PM
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fountain

Tesla's patent 1,113,716 describes a way to make a fountain
that utilizes the smallest amount of energy to create
to push water up to a flared basin, where it overflows the
rim creating a circular cascade.

This man made waterfall will likely produce negative ions.

It is interesting that Tesla experimented with something
that most people perceive to be just a garden ornament.

Certainly the effect is visually pleasing and the negative ions
are healthy and improve the mood.
Perhaps the negative ions from a man-made fountain
can be utilize for radiant energy collection.
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Old 09-03-2009, 06:13 PM
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amalgamated?

re: patent 685958
There is also this statement that is interesting...

"The insulated plate or conducting body should present as large a surface as practicable to the rays or streams of mater, I having ascertained that the amount of energy conveyed to it per unit of time is under otherwise identical conditions proportionate to the area exposed, or nearly so. Furthermore, the surface should be clean and preferably highly polished or amalgamated."

I wasn't familiar with the term amalgamated so I looked it up.
One definition is:
"To mix or alloy (a metal) with mercury."
or
"To unite or blend with another metal."

I do know that dissimilar metals have interesting properties.
Those doing PCB design have to be familiar with this issue
as the dissimilar metals can corrode each other -- by
oxidation or chemical action.

Also...

"A simple way of supplying positive or negative electricity to the terminal is to connect the same either to an insulated conductor, supported at some height in the atmosphere, or to a grounded conductor, the former, as is well known, furnishing positive and the latter negative electricity."

Moray, too, created an antenna that was insulated, and IONIZED so as to create a back & forth cascade of ion pressure.

Over the years, ham operators and radio experimenters have optimized antenna design for the reception of radio waves at all different frequencies.
These are "tuned" in that they are quarter-wave, half-wave, etc.

An antenna that is to receive ALL frequencies would be a different sort of design.

One approach might be to have a matrix of yagi antennas, electrically ORed, ranging from the very high frequency down to the very low -- forming a sort of large TRIANGULAR structure in the air.
This would be a TV antenna on steroids!!!
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Old 09-03-2009, 06:28 PM
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gentleman I have a idea for a experiments i can do with the eletret.
by spraying Ethyl chloride on one side of my eletret will we get a change in the charge?

(Ethyl chloride is supplied as a liquid in a spray bottle propelled by its own vapor pressure. It acts as a mild topical anesthetic by its chilling effect when sprayed on skin, such as when removing splinters in a clinical setting. The heat absorbed by the boiling liquid on tissues produces a deep and rapid chill, but since the boiling point is well above the freezing point of water, it presents no danger of frostbite. The vapor is flammable and narcotic, which requires care.)


I was going on the fact that parafin is used
(Paraffin wax (C25H52) is an excellent material to store heat, having a specific heat capacity of 2.14–2.9 J g−1 K−1 (joule per gram per kelvin) and a heat of fusion of 200–220 J g−1.[6] This property is exploited in modified drywall for home building material: it is infused in the drywall during manufacture so that, when installed, it melts during the day, absorbing heat, and solidifies again at night, releasing the heat.[7])

or am i barking up the wroung tree?
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Old 09-03-2009, 11:04 PM
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Paraffin & carbon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bodkins View Post
I was going on the fact that parafin is used
(Paraffin wax (C25H52) ...
or am i barking up the wroung tree?
As you know I've been studying the Hendershot Fuelless Generator.
One statement in the article titled
"The So-Called Hendershot Motor" by
Associate Gaston Burridge
that I've been ignoring until recently is this:

"There are some stainless steel rings - "non-magnetic" stainless steel --
and some pieces of "stick carbon"."

While reading overunity.com, I saw that someone referred
to the excellent book

"Secret of perpetual power: Hendershot Mystery" by Barry Hilton
which you can find on Scribd.

In this, I found:

"It may be that Hendershot did not use JUST paraffin between the capacitor energy accumulator and the outer coils, but instead used a carbon
compound which was sealed at either end with paraffin wax. If this information was provided by Aho, then this may have been one of Hendershot's little secrets. The use of carbon rods as a core for radio coils, prior to carbon ferrite rods, was fairly common in early radio receivers."

In noodling this over a bit, it occurs to me that carbon has some very interesting properties here.

[] it can be doped with magnetic materials ala ferrite rods
[] carbon as a molecule is happy to exchange electrons -- very happy
[] carbon has a pretty large dielectric constant

So as a core material it can affect not only the inductance in the coil, but also the dielectric in a capacitor.

As a carbon based life form, I like the idea of using carbon.

Last edited by morpher44 : 09-03-2009 at 11:06 PM. Reason: correction
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Old 09-04-2009, 12:26 AM
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Welcome raui, bodkins and everyone else,
I am convinced we are on the verge of cracking this patent…We shall very soon harness cosmic rays/neutrinos/radiant energy in my opinion
I shall summarise:-
In 1896 Telsa advises he was investigating oil and liquid insulators while also investigating roentgen rays
In 1897 he advises he was looking into oil and liquid insulators to reduce the resistance of his circuits/conductors to zero
It is probably a little known fact that Tesla was either the first or very near so to discover superconductivity if I remember correctly.
In 1900 he patents an improvement in insulating conductors using ice or liquid air.
Then in 1901 he patents the radiant energy apparatus.
At this point it is very logical to assume that this discovery of superconductivity lead to the discovery of his apparatus for radiant energy.
So I will put a theory out to everyone, that’s Tesla’s sphere was in the very end, filled with liquid air. And possibility his ground plate was also surrounded by it. Only some experiments will confirm this.
So at this point I put out what is probably a dumb question…….
If I put together a bank of battery’s to give me just over 100VDC and I plan to use a neon bulb as my circuit controller with a trigger point of 90VDC. Then I connect two aluminum plates (or possibly one zinc & one copper) separated by some dielectric. The plate connected to the negative pole being negatively charged and the plate connected to the positive pole being positively charged. I then place the negatively charged plate into a dish of water and place in the freezer and let freeze overnight. I repeat this freezing procedure for the positive plate. I then elevate this negatively charged plate using an old windsurfing mast which is made out of fiberglass and place the positively charged plate in the ground. I then connect up the circuit pretty much as described by Tesla to run some CFL’s. Would this 100VDC charge on the plates be sufficient to trigger a neon bulb to run some CFL’s?
Any comments?
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Old 09-04-2009, 12:52 AM
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interesting experiment

sounds like an interesting experiment.
You might not need to bother with the ground plate.
Just have a PIPE in the ground and that should do it.
The ground plane is so HUGE relative to everything else.
You want LARGE gauge wires ... low resistance.

btw, regarding a different sort of antenna.
I found this:

http://www.johnross.com/2000_URSI_Abstract-Slides.pdf

The idea of using genetic algorithms to select -- on the fly --
the best antenna in a matrix is interesting.
This is a SMART antenna approach.
For power extraction, you would want to SNAP to the signal
that yields the largest wattage for you.
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Old 09-04-2009, 04:32 AM
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nat1971a nat1971a is offline
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@bodkins

how cold does the Ethyl chloride get?
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Old 09-04-2009, 05:59 AM
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nat1971a nat1971a is offline
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Looks like we have some alternate ideas on what the magic ingredient is to capture cosmic rays (radiant energy):-

1. superconductivity - ICE or liquid air
2. paraffin
3. carbon
4. carbon & paraffin
5. Almagmated alloy

Anybody else?

Last edited by nat1971a : 09-04-2009 at 06:07 AM.
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Old 09-04-2009, 06:22 AM
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Bodkins Bodkins is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nat1971a View Post
@bodkins

how cold does the Ethyl chloride get?
on your skin it will bubble and leave frost,
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Old 09-04-2009, 06:27 AM
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nat1971a nat1971a is offline
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give it a go bodkins....but you will need to negatively charge your cable for your electret.

and positively charge your ground

i was planning on using a 2uf 3000volt capacitor
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Old 09-04-2009, 07:29 AM
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morpher44 morpher44 is offline
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clarification...

Quote:
Originally Posted by nat1971a View Post
Looks like we have some alternate ideas on what the magic ingredient is to capture cosmic rays (radiant energy):-
1. superconductivity - ICE or liquid air
2. paraffin
3. carbon
4. carbon & paraffin
5. Almagmated alloy
Anybody else?
Clarification:

Antenna/collector should be
"amalgamated alloy" or "highly polished".

To boost capacity, since a large size is difficult to achieve,
the collector should be insulated and surrounded by a dielectric.
That dielectric can be anything with a high dielectric constant.
Some candidates are:
- water good, ice better
- paraffin
- carbon / graphite

A good material table is found here.
Relative static permittivity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 09-04-2009, 07:54 AM
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morpher44 morpher44 is offline
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Tesla @ Colorado Springs

While Tesla was experimenting @ Colorado Springs,
he set up one of his "receiver" coils to monitor
the earth's "electrical vibrations".

He had a primary connected to ground and a special sort of antenna.
His secondary was wired to some sort of sensitive recording device
where he could track lightning, etc.

One quote that is interesting is this one:

"In that dry and rarefied atmosphere the sun's rays beat the objects with fierce intensity. I raised steam, to a dangerous pressure, in barrels filled with salt solutions, and the tin-foil coatings of some of my elevated terminals shriveled up in the fiery blaze."
...
"Aided by the dryness and rarefaction of the air, the water evaporates as in a boiler, and static electricity is developed in abundance."

I recall reading that Tesla had a special sort of antenna wire
utilizing a vacuum (or perhaps he pumped saltwater in to a cylinder carrying the wire up to his tinfoil terminal).
It would be good to track down exactly what sort of antenna system
he used there.

I found this interesting article:

www.teslasociety.com/teslarec.pdf
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Old 09-04-2009, 06:31 PM
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power sucking antennas

WOW!
I found this article:

Nikola Tesla Page, Tesla's power receiver

The "more musings" particularly got my attention
because it proposes to use a "vibrating magnet" to
create a sort of super-conducting antenna for low frequencies.
This is exactly the sort of information that might help
one re-create Tesla's radiant energy patent
an approach that can be room temperature.
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Old 09-04-2009, 08:20 PM
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nat1971a nat1971a is offline
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i have been wondering about magnets. Moray used a magnet to kick start his aerial by rubbing the masts (if i remember correctly) he was using for about 10 minutes. It may be required to kick start it perhaps.
- i.e to create an oscillating circuit

One just has to bear in mind the roengten ray experiments done in 1896 & 1895 by perin, crookes and jj thomson that a magnet would deflect the rays. They were testing the deflection to the point that they deflected it so much that it missed the negatively charged plate and hence no charge detected
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