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  #1  
Old 06-07-2009, 03:06 PM
Ted Ewert Ted Ewert is offline
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Water Turbine Project

In the continuing exploration of centrifugal force, Iíve built a water turbine that takes advantage of this phenomenon as its primary source of power.
Its design is based on the works of Victor Schauberger and Allan Cresswell. Iíve built a number of previous turbines, but for various mechanical reasons I couldnít get them working satisfactorily. I have hopefully worked out some of those issues enough to get a working unit.
This is a picture of the machine I put together. The container is a cut down 55 gallon drum. The turbine is powered from a 1/3 hp 12 VDC motor. I have an amp meter in series with the DC feed to monitor power drain.



Here is a picture of the turbine. Itís made from 2Ē PVC pipe. The water is drawn in through holes in the bottom and up and out through the arms. The check valve prevents water from flowing out when it is being filled (primed) prior to starting. Once the turbine is spinning, it is self priming and will automatically pump water out the nozzles.



Here is how the turbine sits in the drum.



The theory behind this turbine is to turn a column of water, through centrifugal force, into kinetic energy. This is done by rotating the turbine at a high speed to build up pressure at the ends of the arms. This pressure is then converted into velocity by forcing the water out through small jets in the direction of rotation. The angular velocity of the arms and the velocity of the jet add in the same direction.
Once the velocity of the water is achieved, it is converted into forward torque by deflecting it through a 180 degree tube.
The next step is to get the turbine into resonance. This is when a pressure wave is created that bounces back and forth through the arm, creating large pressure pulses at the nozzle. This will significantly increase the velocity of the water exiting the nozzle. When velocity is doubled, kinetic energy is quadrupled, which translates directly into forward torque.
This is the part Iím still working on. Schauberger used serrations on the perimeter of his containment vessel to accomplish resonance. Cresswell claims that his unit would automatically go into resonance. Iím starting with the Cresswell method since itís the simplest. I have some ideas that I will try if it doesnít work.
Iím going to fill it with water today and see what happens. This is definitely a work in progress so Iíll post results as I go.

Cheers,

Ted

If the pictures don't show up in this post for some reason, I have an album going of turbine pictures here:

Picasa Web Albums - Ted - Turbine
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  #2  
Old 06-07-2009, 04:37 PM
Electrotek Electrotek is offline
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Lookin' good, Ted. Your theory seems solid enough that it just may work. Thanks for sharing.
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Old 06-07-2009, 05:04 PM
Peter Lindemann Peter Lindemann is offline
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Good Start

Ted,

This has to work. The principles are sound. It is just a matter of finding the right geometry. A systematic exploration of these ideas must lead to a working model.

Keep up the great work.

Peter
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Old 06-07-2009, 05:18 PM
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Michael John Nunnerley Michael John Nunnerley is offline
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Hi Ted

Nice construction, hope it works as you want it. There is so much to do that I am having to put my time into one project and then move on to another when the grey cells do not want to function on the project in hand, there is always time to go back and do more after a rest, keep going it is a good idea

Mike
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Old 06-07-2009, 06:22 PM
Ted Ewert Ted Ewert is offline
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Thanks for the support guys, I really do appreciate it.
I always have a certain level of trepidation when I fire up my machines for the first time. I should know better by now, but I let my hopes get up and I know it's not going to work the first time.
Nevertheless, I stuck some heavy duty casters on it so I can roll it around and I'll fire it up this afternoon once I get my honey-do list checked off.

Cheers,

Ted
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Old 06-08-2009, 12:29 AM
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Hi Ted.

I have been working with a machinist in my local area and he told me about a water turbine he worked on a few years ago. I have found him to be an honest guy, so I dont doubt his retelling.

He was using a bench grinder to get it up to speed and with some adjustment to the water pressure he says that he was able to tune it to the point where it took off, accelerating past the running speed of the AC motor driving it. Unfortunately it came apart shortly after. It was made of a number of acrylic discs with slots cut into it in a vortex style pattern. These were glued together, and this is where it failed, the laminations coming apart at high speed and high pressure. He showed me some of the leftovers, he said the size of the slots in the turbine was very important. Talked about water hammer some...

He had a friend who tried to rebuild it, but he changed the slot size and he built only half of it, despite being told that there were two parts, Compression and Expansion. Needless to say, it didnt work as intended.

I will try to get some pictures of it next time we meet up if you are interested. Its quite different to your design, but perhaps it ties in or gives you some ideas.

Regards
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Old 06-08-2009, 12:45 AM
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Ted, I love it

Like peter says, in principle it should work. Gotta clean up my experiment's mess today - missus' orders - but will think on these centrifugal designs we're working on..

Your 1/3 hp motor makes me feel better about possibly adding a coil to my mill.

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Old 06-08-2009, 01:01 AM
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What if

The inside of the arms had ridges like an inside out screw, and the nozzles used the extra centrifugal force generated by the water's vortex to aid rotation?

Love and light
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Old 06-08-2009, 03:59 AM
Ted Ewert Ted Ewert is offline
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I fired it up and it spun pretty good. I don't think I had a very good prime on it though, because it stopped spraying after a minute or two. Then my homemade check valve stopped working so I had to take it apart. I also had a couple of leaks that needed some attention.
I need to develop a self priming system. I'm going to do some experiments with a centrifugal cone type pump. I started putting some pieces together and I think I may have a workable unit. I'll try it out in the next day or so and let you know.
@ Stealth, No rush. I'm quite a ways off from a self runner. I have a lot of work still ahead of me but I'll be happy to share notes. Lots of mechanical issues yet to solve.
@ Ren, Sounds intriguing. It's hard to get an accurate mental picture of the mechanism. Any pics? I'm always interested in new ideas.
@ Inquorate, Creating a vortex in the tube is a good thing in some instances, but you have to be careful. For instance, a vortex will not exit a nozzle with the same force that a straight stream will. If you examine Schaubergers Tornado nozzle assembly carefully you'll see that he kills the vortex with an "island" right before the water exits the nozzle.
I have plans for both straight and vorticle flows, but that's still down the road a ways. Once I get it primming itself things will get a lot easier.

Thanks for the input guys.

Ted
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Old 06-08-2009, 04:24 AM
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This is the kind of experiment that I will keep eye . Currently only playing around with what vortex do to plant.

Do the water inside the PVC tube spinning?


About Schauberger island, what do you mean?
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Old 06-08-2009, 04:41 AM
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@ Ted.

I was intrigued too. He also stated that the electric motor was disconnected as it sped up, in a vain attempt to shut it down before self destruction occured. But it just kept speeding up

I will be getting some parts off him tomorrow hopefully, I will see if I can get a pic of what is left.

Regards
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Old 06-08-2009, 03:36 PM
Ted Ewert Ted Ewert is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sucahyo View Post
Do the water inside the PVC tube spinning?
It spins in the second part. I decided not to use this type of nozzle after doing a couple of tests. Since water is basically uncompressable I don't get anything there. And the vortex actually slows down the water exiting the nozzle. Theory is one thing, reality is often another.

Quote:
About Schauberger island, what do you mean?
Here's a picture I scanned from the book "Living Energies" (sorry for the marginal quality). It shows the interior of Schauberger's nozzle and indicates the island. This whole page is very instructive and is worth close scrutiny.




Cheers,

Ted
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Old 06-08-2009, 11:36 PM
Ted Ewert Ted Ewert is offline
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I'm going to try a funnel inside of this 3" coupling in an attempt to produce centrifugal pumping. I may need a vane of some sort to make sure the water is spinning at the maximum velocity, but I'll try it first with only surface friction.



Here is the funnel inserted in the coupling:



The idea is to self prime the turbine so I don't have to fill it up each time. I've resolved to figure out some sort of a centrifugal pump as a solution. There are a number of possible choices. I'll try the simplest ones first and and then work towards more complex configurations until I find a winner. It may take a little time but it's a basic necessity. Then we can concentrate on the fun stuff.

Ted
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Old 06-09-2009, 02:31 AM
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@Ted Ewert, thanks for the answer, just notice it . I also found that water exit slower when there is vortex. I found a cone funnel made less vortex instead of hyperbolic or half round funnel.

The green one in this picture create vortex easier but with slower water drop, although in this configuration green one drain faster because I add fin in the copper pipe which suck the water and air to the bottom. The red one do not have fin in the copper pipe so air would not get sucked.

The red one has smooth angle transition (tangen shape) from top to bottom, the green one has sharp angle at the middle.


Good luck .
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Old 06-09-2009, 03:11 AM
Ted Ewert Ted Ewert is offline
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Originally Posted by sucahyo View Post
@Ted Ewert, thanks for the answer, just notice it . I also found that water exit slower when there is vortex. I found a cone funnel made less vortex instead of hyperbolic or half round funnel.

The green one in this picture create vortex easier but with slower water drop, although in this configuration green one drain faster because I add fin in the copper pipe which suck the water and air to the bottom. The red one do not have fin in the copper pipe so air would not get sucked.

The red one has smooth angle transition (tangen shape) from top to bottom, the green one has sharp angle at the middle.


Good luck .
Although a vortex will not exit a nozzle faster than a straight flow, it will allow a flow through a pipe with much less resistance (turbulence) than a non rotating flow.
All forms of rotating mass have very interesting properties. Bruce DePalma has written some really good stuff about this.

Ted
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Old 06-09-2009, 03:58 AM
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Couple of ideas to share

If the right opportunities present themselves, I'd like to hop on board with replication of your project, given the successes and failures of my gravity mill project..

Here's my thoughts;

YouTube - Inquorate theoretical adaption of ted ewert's centrifugal water turbine idea

Love and light
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Old 06-09-2009, 04:29 AM
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Water hammer

I forgot to say in my video that the water pressure will probably not remain stable, and that the internal discs will probably cause a hammering effect, which I believe would be desireable.
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Old 06-09-2009, 04:35 AM
Ted Ewert Ted Ewert is offline
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Hi Ben,
Glad to have you take an interest in this project. I think it's a natural progression from the gravity engine. Besides, I can use all the help I can get.
I watched your video and have a couple of comments. I've already tried the type of pump you suggested for all the same reasons you mentioned. Much to my disappointment it didn't work. It wouldn't raise the water more than about an inch. Since then I've done some research on centrifugal pumps and how they work. It comes down to having a stator and a rotor with some ports in it if you want it to be able to lift any water. That's a little beyond my machining capabilities.
If you take your cone and invert it, you'll have what I'm working on now for a pump. Also reverse the direction of your spin. The water exiting in that direction has no speed.
The water should be initially projected out through the nozzle in the direction of rotation because this adds absolute velocity to it (with respect to earth). Since kinetic energy goes up as the square of the velocity, we need all the speed we can get. Once the water is up to speed, we turn it around through 180 degrees to harvest the kinetic energy as forward torque. The conversion cycle is: pressure-speed-torque.
This is a little counter intuitive at first, but if you think about it makes sense.

Cheers,

Ted
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Old 06-09-2009, 06:58 AM
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I see what you mean

perhaps the centrifugal 'force' can supply water suction?

Centrifugal+turbine+idea+#2.jpg (image)

This could have adjustable nozzles both at the ends of the arms, and (not in my pic) at the base of the central water intake tube, to control suction.

Priming can be by having full water level and facilitated by a 2 cone gearing system using a fanbelt.

I didn't draw two gear adjusters, but that would prob be necessary.

Then the water level could be dropped as it is sped up..

@ted - where'd you source your motor?

Ta
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Old 06-09-2009, 08:11 AM
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Idea #2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiVyAhVy6z0
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Old 06-09-2009, 09:08 AM
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Hi folks, This is very interesting. You know I've been seeing this tapering spiral shape all over like in lamps and other places.
Even though not totally the same, it seems Teslas turbine uses a spiraling vortex action to spin the discs efficiently and possibly with excess energy to be tapped. Similar to what Ren is speaking about of his friends device that had spiral channels in between discs although Teslas just used the adhesion effect to keep the water stuck to the disc as it spirals in towards the center outlet. Has anyone experienced or know of anyone getting high efficiencies with a tesla turbine.
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Old 06-09-2009, 09:18 AM
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Tesla turbine

@Skywatcher - No idea, but the tesla turbine and it's theory are on my research list for this contraption.. He did say it was his finest achievement, which is saying a lot.
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Old 06-09-2009, 11:36 AM
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water exit speed

@ Ted - wouldn't the water in this setup exit at the same speed as in yours?

water+exit+speed.jpg (image)

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Old 06-09-2009, 02:15 PM
Ted Ewert Ted Ewert is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inquorate View Post
@ Ted - wouldn't the water in this setup exit at the same speed as in yours?

water+exit+speed.jpg (image)

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I don't think it's so much the exit speed of the water as it is extracting the kinetic energy. My intent is to wring every last bit of energy out of the stream and convert it into torque. Going through 180 degrees takes twice as long as 90 degrees, thereby converting just that much more energy.
Plus, if your nozzle is facing straight out, you can't take advantage of the summing of velocities (rotational velocity + nozzle velocity).
To answer your question about the source of my motor: I scrounged it. It came from a 12 volt air compressor we use on some of our trucks at work. I like DC motors because I can easily change the direction of rotation, and they have good low speed torque. 1/3 hp is a little on the edge though. 1/2 or 3/4 hp might work a little better. The junkyard is our dear friend.

Cheers,

Ted
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Old 06-09-2009, 03:35 PM
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Hi all, this I have posted before in another form, but is how I see this, all be it a little complicated to build

Mike
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Old 06-09-2009, 05:11 PM
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Schauberger

Hi all,

in some of the former postings some of you have spoken form Viktor Schauberger.

1. Schauberger used devices with hyperbolic shape. There's a store in Switzerland where you can by this units. WYTOR Schauberger-Trichter, Hyperbel, Wasseraufbereitung, Wendelrohre.

2. @Inquorate and Ted
is it possible that you want to reinvent the Segnersche water wheel?
Segner-wheel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

3. I am no Schauberger expert. But this makes me thinking: Why does Schauberger called one of his devices Repulsine (re-pulsate/pulse). I think he called it Replusine because the fluid which eject from the unit push against a rim. 't the = re-pulsate
(see attached file)

best wishes
Alana
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File Type: jpg Schauberger - repulsine - noozle.jpg (65.9 KB, 42 views)
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Old 06-09-2009, 10:10 PM
Ted Ewert Ted Ewert is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alana View Post
2. @Inquorate and Ted
is it possible that you want to reinvent the Segnersche water wheel?
Segner-wheel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

best wishes
Alana
Hi Alana,
Interesting device. The Segner wheel is similar to what I'm trying to build except that he is using the power of falling water to drive a generator. I am attempting to use the power of centrifugal force and resonance to power mine.
I wonder what Segner does about his hole filling up with water?

Cheers,

Ted
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Old 06-09-2009, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Ewert View Post
Hi Alana,
Interesting device. The Segner wheel is similar to what I'm trying to build except that he is using the power of falling water to drive a generator. I am attempting to use the power of centrifugal force and resonance to power mine.
I wonder what Segner does about his hole filling up with water?

Cheers,

Ted
Lol, maybe the powered device is a pump. Would that be COP > 1 ?

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Old 06-09-2009, 11:15 PM
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archimedes

@ stealth - can you do a little drawing of your design? i've debated using the rotation to draw water up via an archimedes screw but have been stumped at how to implement it in an actual device

with three of us working on this from different angles, it could get quite interesting.

also waiting eagerly for any pics from ren.

all
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Old 06-09-2009, 11:53 PM
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Basically you'd need the equivalent of a drill bit in a sleeve. Think of a drill bit boring a hole. The shavings climb up the flutes of the bit and out of the hole. A sleeve around a spirally fluted shaft may do the trick. Make the screw turn in conjunction with the turbine and make the sleeve stationary; much like an extruder for plastics. This will also create some heat increase due to friction of the water between the sleeve and screw creating an increase in pressure as it runs.
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