Although flattered it helps little

Won't do anythig short of having a confirmed Vanilla 4pole Kromrey to fiddle with
: cheers :

Well, this thing is still winning ... but .. we'll keep going

I'll start with baseline testing my coils per Steve's note.... No shorts, winds seem correct.. resistance and inductance low .... but we'll see

Starting to wonder if cast iron is permeable enough ? or too slow ?
Pneuphysics, When you went to a serial arrangement, did you flip a coil or cross to the opposite end of the other coil ?

I need a scope Any recommendations on brand or model ?
Ebay here I come...

Timm


Materials of Construction update:
Top/Base: 12” square aluminum plates
Shaft: 3/8” Brass
Magnets: (12) 0.50”x 1.0”x 2.0” Ceramic #5 per stack
Poles: 1”x1”x2.5” cast iron blocks, faces to match the arc radius of the armature.
Armatures: 1” cast iron rod, 4.5” long, drilled 3/8” hole to shaft
1/8” of material was left on each end as a stop for the coil windings and faced to the 2.25” radius. Inside of the 1/8” endcaps, the rod was turned to ½” diameter over a length of 1.75” to accommodate the coil windings. The ½” center was wrapped with electrical tape and nylon washers were added to insulate the winding ends from the iron. The windings were held in place with shrinkwrap after completion.
Frame Rods: ¾” Aluminum, aluminum spacers between top of poles and aluminum top/bottom plate.
Coil: 130 turns of #18, trifilar, twisted
Motor: 3000 rpm, 24V, 1/3HP DC, 3000 rpm
Brushes Braided copper held against slip rings with insulated spring

1500 rpm (12V) 5.0 v DC
8.2 v AC
Unloaded draw 3.02 A
Shorted draw 3.08 A
50 ohm 3.06 A

3000 rpm (24V) 3.95 DC
15.98 AC
Unloaded draw 3.95 A
Shorted draw 4.50 A
50 ohm 4.05 A

Slip ring – Slip ring resistance = 0.2 ohms
Slip ring – Slip ring inductance = 208 µH

Known of the desired characteristics listed above were noted.

StevanC: You said,

> As the coils break loose, a spike is induced

When most of us hear "spike" I think that we think of a Bedini motor collapsing-field discharge spike.

In the Kromery converter case, there are no Bedini-motor-style spikes. Yes, the waveform can look something like a spike, especially if the oscilloscope time-base is slow, but it's just a sharp rise or fall in the voltage waveform.

MileHigh,

I believe it to be a "collapsing-field discharge spike".
The flux path charges the coil, then you break the circuit. As explained by John, that is the main principle of this device.

Timm

Hey Timm,

You may be aware how in a Bedini motor the transistor driving the main power coil shuts off abruptly, and then you get the famous collapsing-field discharge spike from the power coil.

Note that in the Kromrey convertor there is no "breaking" of the circuit. To be absolutely clear, I am talking about the case where there is no load on the coils, and while the convertor turns you have your scope hooked up to the output from the two or four coiils in series. Are John Bedini's comments about this specific measurement setup? If yes, can you briefly state what his comments are? Thanks in advance. - MileHigh

Edit: Timm, yes indeed you are "breaking" the magnetic flux circuit whereas the electrical circuit remains unbroken. Sorry if I caused any confusion.

Ok the short-speed up thing i can somehow understand it. Even though in my experience so far, it requires a too many turns coils to manifest the event (high impedance?) as well as rotor frequency should be damn high.

But, can you extract any energy out of the shorted coils by parallel applying the FWBR??? I think you cannot or minute amounts of it. If your experience is of the opposite, then i will happily give a try.

see my PEREPITEIA-FEG ver1

Bedini's "Free Energy Generation" machine aka "1984" aka "Watson"
(scroll down to pictures) Utilizing the SSG (axial mode though) for torquy operation is a costly fiasko! Cost me some 300 euros (400+ USD) !

Regards,
Baroutologos

Yes,
As is in Bedini style too, if "zoomed" to the split [us] range (0.2usec/div)

But if You run the Kromrey just right, You will get as sharp as this IMO. Have to check this still.

And

It's not the "pike" of the spike but the dV/Dt that is of interest?

Compare china made with US made - take a cheap model (low end) off a good brand:

I have an EXTECH DVM meter and few china - nonames

I can say the EXTECH, albeit a low end model, outworths the no names by a order of magnitude, and all functions present -work, which is not always the case on no-name...

there are 200EUR brand new usb/PC o-scopes (software)

A PC homed o-scope has tons of advantages over a LAB-scope IMO. Especially @home
;-)

Sorry about the off topic,

Having lived in Asia most of my life and knowing a little about how the manufacturing business works (some of my best friends own factories in China), I'll say this;

"No-name" brands are just that, a product that hasn't had it's badge glued on yet. Most of the major electronics houses get there products produced in asian factories, and many of these factories, as a side business, sell unbranded versions of the same "brand-name" products. Having said that, this obviously does not include your boutique brands, but it does include the majority.

If you want to save money (and I mean a lot of money) on equipment, contact the factories and by a sample. They don't advertise this but everyone sells samples of there product, usually at a highly reduced price. (as an example, I purchased two 200Ah true deep cycle batteries for US$200 + shipping). A good place to search is "www.alibaba.com". You can find anything and everthing.

I'm not advertising, just trying to help you save money.

Cheers,

Steve.

A 2nd hand (used) analog o-scope (Tektronix comes to mind) can have problems beyond repair:

1. selection knob has finite life and substantial price as a spare part.

2. Ac/Dc diodes can be burned and must be replaced as matched pair

A digital scope consideration:
25 MS/sec (Mega samples / second)
0.04 ms /25,000 samples / second
0.04 us /25,000,000 samples per second

equals

40 ns = 5MHz
20 ns = 10MHz
10 ns = 20MHz

If You event of interest lasts 10ns, You better off a 5MHz single channel o-scope

If You look at a decent 5MHz dual channel, You might find it has a double sample rate in single channel mode (20 ns resolution)

OTOH,
some models have USB or rs232 port for serious data logging / analyzing

like the EXTECH 381295A.
see here: "http://www.extech.com/instruments/product.asp?catid=16&prodid=279"

Advanced users might say better advices here, but i sulee would look for that 10ns capable one. YMMV.

Thanks Guys !!!

I'll get something coming...

Regards,

Timm

Folks,

Is there a critical value of dV/dT which must be obtained before effects start to become apparent ?

Curious how this might affect the choice of armature / pole / cores as well as the geometry of the magnet poles relative the armature poles.

I know others have produced the MW waveforms on their units but have not experienced the effects. Testing documents suggest that these units aren't speed dependent, in other words, once performing as desired, speed could be dropped to ~25% and the load was still powered.

Brings me back to maybe my cast iron is permeable enough or less responsive to the flux flip.

I know I could go to laminated cores, or the welding rods, but that makes for a more challenging build (at least for the Kromrey per the DVD). The video looks to be solid material.

Any thoughts ?

Timm

Maybe this is a value we should start capturing and comparing ?

Timm

Pneuphysics,

Is this idea the wiring diagram you posted earlier, with all S poles facing out ?

Timm

Bedini warns in the DVD10 lecture:

You want Bloch wall in the middle on the shaft, not superimposed magnetic poles. He clearly states, the same is desired for the magnet stacks.

The rules seem simple, but stiff?

the plates on his Kromrey seem to carry holes of an 6 pole setup?

He liked the 4pole setup for some reason better?

When i discussed the M/W waveform, i forgot to mention:

The V is off poles, where the more the poles go apart, the deeper the V becomes.

If the poles where colse enough, a regular sinewave gets generated. And we don't want that?

best regards,
Stevan C.

Pneuphysics,

What kind of voltage are you measureing out of your set-up ?
On your scope trace, is the 1V / 20ms divisions ?

Timm

Xpskid -

1vdcx10 probe so you are seeing 10vdc between squares. More later

Ok Here is the RPM test I promised. I used a hall effect sensor to pick up revolutions and ran the output through a nand gate to clean it up then measured it on my scope which has an integrated freq meter. Running at 1800 rpm no load. When the coils are shorted it picks up 48 rpm. I expected more but I believe for my proof of concept 1st. unit build it tells me to keep trying with a more accurately machined unit, maybe slightly different geometry. I am very pleased and excited to move forward. Hope this helps someone.

Take care,
Pneuphysics

xpskid -

I would not use cast iron #1 jmho I would use cold roll or the softest steel I could find, but I'm not convinced your problem is the metal you are using. If I had built the unit you are describing I would put my effort into the armature wiring. That is what the test results are telling me. Not wired correctly. Just my thoughts.

On the scope I would get the best you can afford - the faster the better. My fluke is about 2.5 grand and worth every penny. I realize that is out of many peoples price range - if I had to replace it I probably would get one off ebay from China.

My wiring. I crossed a top coil wire over to the bottom. Flipping a coil gives you the same exact coil, flipping the electrical connections flips the NS poles. If you look at my drawing I scanned and posted that says Now at the top - consider the coil at the top to be the top coil then the wire coming off it on the right going down to the bottom coil needs to be removed from the bottom coil front and connected to the bottom coil rear. The other 2 coil wires go to the bridge rectifier. Front is facing the DC drive motor. From the front the bottom coil is wound cw starting from the front. The top coil is wound ccw starting from the front. Make sense?

Good Luck Timm,
Pneuphysics

My 2 cents - I thing MileHigh has a good point. There is a difference in breaking magnetic flux and breaking a circuit. Flux disruption occurs much more slowly than a circuit break, simply because it is a mechanical mechanism.

Take care,
Pneuphysics

Ok - I charged a 12vdc 7ah gel cell battery from 12.24vdc to 12.41 in 3 minutes during which it dropped 1 deg. F (not enough to get excited) according to my ir gun. I need to run a longer test on a reliable battery this weekend. I mentioned before the motor is not tied down too well - that is why the short test. Plus I would like to run the DC driving motor from an ac to dc power supply so it is stable for long testing times. got to find one in my junk stash

Cool looking Bedini Energizer I have never replicated that unit but I understand they take a lot of tweeking to get the timing right.

Take care,
Pneuphysics

Yes it is. I have not taken the time to analyze it, just wondered if anyone tried it and what the scope trace looked like. I am still looking for the source of this idea, I saw it on the net somewhere.

Remember in Bedinis video, If you get a shock off the output of your generator it is not wired right. if you can pass the energy through thin wires without melting them you are wired correctly. What does that tell you? It tells me this is no standard generator nor is it a current generator. It produces a waveform that batteries respond to but we do not. It produces a waveform that our instruments are capable of seeing but the useful product over and above what our scopes see is what we do not understand and cannot see. I am sure each one of us, given the time and resources could get the Kromrey, or gfield to work. We just need the magic combination. We will find it together!

Good luck to all,
Pneuphysics

I just want to mention a basic concept in electromagnetism because some people in the forum may not be aware of it and it should demistify the voltage waveforms that you observe from your convertor coils.

A coil will react to changes in the magnetic flux passing through the cross-sectional area of the coil and generate voltage across the unloaded coil terminals in response. If the coil is shorted then it will generate a current in response. The instant there are no changes in magnetic flux the response from the coil disappears and becomes zero.

To put it in more precise terms for the open-terminal voltage case: The voltage generated by a coil will be proportional to the inductance of the coil times the rate of change of magnetic flux going through the coil with respect to time. This is a very important concept and is worthwhile thinking about.

A week ago we discussed a converter waveform and how it was non-sinusoidal. Imagine a simplified case where the magnetic flux path has a cross-sectional area that is a perfect circle of uniform density and the coil corss-section is also a perfect circle the same size.

So you have a circular "pipe" of magnetic flux that is passing across a circular coil "receptor". You can imagine something akin to a total eclipse of the sun by the moon, where the moon is the magnetic flux "piple" and the sun is the coil. The area of the overlap would be equivalent to the amount of flux going through the coil.

When they first touch, only a small area overlaps, and therefore the rate of change of magnetic flux the coil "sees" at the beginning is very small. Since the amount of flux going through the coil is directly proportional to the overlap area, let's just use area to make it easier to visualize.

So the rate of change of overlap area with respect to time starts out slowly, and as the two circles continue to overlap, the rate of change of overlap area with respect to time starts to increase. At a certain point the rate of change of area reaches a peak, then after that it starts to decrease. When the two circles are perfectly lined up (i.e.; TDC or a "full eclipse") then for a brief moment the rate of change of overlap area with respect to time is zero. That's the zero cross point in the voltage waveform. Then as the "moon" continues moving past the "sun" the whole process repeats itself, but now the rate of change of area overlap with respect to time is negative.

If you go back to those scope waveforms, that is exactly what you are seeing. You really have to think hard and visualize it, to corelate the rate of change of overlap area with respect to time with the scope traces.

Some of you may be familiar with the equation for the voltage across a coil, v = L di/dt. This is essectially the same thing. "di/dt" is the rate of change of current with respect to time. For the generator (convertor) case, the equivalent to current is simply the magnetic flux density times the overlap area with the coil. Therefore the rate of change of overlap area with respect to time is the essentially the same as the rate of change of current with respect to time. In both cases you get voltage across the coil.

This might help: You are in a car with your eyes clossed. The car's speed is equivalent to the flowing current. If the current starts to increase, it's like the car is starting to accelerate. The force you feel on your body when the car is accelerating is equivalent to the voltage generated by the coil. (Force = mass x acceleraton, and acceleration is change in velocity with respect to time, therefore force = mass x change in velocity with respect to time. Voltage = Inductance x change in current with respect to time.)

v = L di/dt also explains the collapsing field spike that you get from a coil in a Bedini motor. When the transistor switches off abruptly, di/dt gets very very large, and therfore the voltage across the coil gets very very high.

Some of you may be tempted to say, "This doesn't apply for this unconventional setup" and I can assure you that would be a very unwise way of thinking. For every person that uploads scope shots of their waveforms and pictures of their setups, you should be able to see how the scope shots relate back to the actual physcial build. By the same token, like I said before, you can simply look at how a convertor is built, look at the cross-sectional shape of the magnetic flux path, look at the cross-sectional shape of the coils, and look at the speed of the "fly by" between the magnetic flux path and the coils to make an estimate of what the voltage waveform from the convertor will look like before you even see it.

In all likelyhood, every Kromrey convertor will react as desribed above without exception. Finally, if you understood all of the above then it should not be a surprise to observe increasing voltage output from the coils when the RPM increases.

Last post for the night, I promise Just trying to answer posts top down and add my 2 cents in there. As you already know dv/dt is best extrapolated from your scope traces so you would have to have a scope #1. Not sure how many here have one. But I still think the peak is important too. When my coils were wired in parallel and the unit was powered by a drill 800rpm my pulses were maybe 5-7 vdc rectified and I could not charge a 12vdc battery. I got the same pulse waveform when I went in series and added a faster motor that gave me 30vdc rectified pulses that charged the 12vdc battery very quickly. I think both are important - just not sure why.

Good night and good luck all,
Pneuphysics

Hi Guys,

Hi Pneuphysics, one thing I am still unsure about is this. Does it matter which end of the coil we start the wind from. I understand the direction of the wind, CW or CCW etc, but do we start winding from the side closest to the magnets or the shaft? Does it make a difference? A more detailed coil schematic should help clear this up. For me anyway.

Cheers,

Steve

Thank you for taking the time to post this long explanation.
It totally cleared up this concept for me.
I had a basic understanding but now I have a clear understanding from your examples.

WTG!

DonL

As John Bedini wrote: There is nothing on the (scope) trace that explains what charges the battery so good.

The charge the battery receives in the end is "different" yet "like" the normal DC charge one, except that a dead battery can receive it too.

Yes,
all stuff the SSG, WM and Kromrey do can be traced on the scopes, but there seem to be "more than meets the eye"?

The alone property of the sub 5% duty cycle waveform seems to make good to the overall wet chemistry?

And there seems to be more "kinds" of electricity than we where supposed to be taught about?

So, i agree not to mystify the operation of the Kromrey when the scope-shots come in question - it seems it's nothing there unusual.

But if we where to quantize the amount of energy delivered to a battery compared to the amount recovered?

And that is the stumbling stone of all this past years IMO



best regards,
Stevan C.

Happy July 4th to our American friends.

I will just add my two-cent quick-ish comments!

Pneuphysics: Putting two generator coils in parallel should be avoided. It's impossible to have their instantaneous voltages match therefore the coil with the higher voltage will discharge into the battery and the other coil. The coil with the lower voltage will contribute nothing towards charging the battery. It's similar to never putting two batteries that are driving a load in parallel.

Dambit: The winding pattern for the coil is of no real importance. The most important thing is that the inner cross-sectional shape of the coil should ideally be the same size or larger than the cross-sectional shape of the magnetic flux path. The number of turns determines the inductance of the coil. If you wind the coil the in the "wrong" direction, just flip the wires and you are fine!

DonL: You are very welcome and I am glad it helped.

StevanC: Determining if the nature of the electricity from the convertor is "different" could indeed be the real challenge. If you want to ignore the "why" for now and look at the results that's perfectly valid. Many people may assume that you can look at battery voltages to make these types of measurements. I am sure many others know to make real measurements you have to run charging and discharging cycle tests with precise energy in and energy out measurements. That's not easy or fun and is a lot of work!

I did a drawing of my coils as they are wound now in series and how it relates to a Kromrey. The Kromrey is on the right and GField on the left. This may help with your coil config since it is my opinion they are the same. Note the shaft going verticle thru the coils that would spin the coils inside of the stationary magnets (Kromrey fashion). The thing I like about GField is the magnets are easier to spin, no slip rings and the magnets can be adjusted very close to the coils without fancy machining on the coil ends or pole pieces. My purpose is not to change your direction to Gfield instead of Kromrey but to help with coil winding for the Kromrey. I no longer think I would wind the coils like the post I just put up from the net where all outside poles are the same. Instead I would wire mine like in this jpeg posted here. one coil wound cw and the other ccw just like Bedini showed in the video except when he gets to the right side end he comes from the front of the top coil continuing in the same direction back across the front of the bottom coil. Which if you look at it is the same cw and ccw coil arrangement. I believe (and my work shows this to be a high probability) when John got to the right side end he should have gone from the front of the top coil to the back of the bottom coil opposite end and wound that coil in the opposite direction all the way down. Again the cw and ccw wind is the same so how John did it may work as well. I will test this later today and let you know if I get the same results. So many possibilities

Peunphysics

Attached Images

Kromrey vs Gfield.jpg (154.9 KB, 56 views)

Super question, I will find out today - if so it may explain some problems in the past. with the GField i can change coil connects very easy. I'll keep you posted.

BTW MileHigh I agree totally with your comment about battery tests. Very difficult. I had to build a AD converter to measure voltage - a reasonable load - and write a program to disconnect the battery from the load at final discharge while taking a measurement every minute and logging the entry. And that was on the discharge side only. More complex on the charging side because you have to switch in your AD converter measure then back out cuz it affected the charge to be connected all the time.


Pneuphysics

Very interesting! One jpg wired like John shows directly from Video. The other is same as mine Back of top coil tied to front of bottom coil. I like johns cuz if i rectify it i should get twice the pos pulses. hmmmm. anyone? thoughts? Cannot answer your question yet on starting end but you do get a different wave for sure.

Pneuphysics

Attached Images

	The way mine are wired Crossed.JPG (446.6 KB, 40 views)
	Wired like John shows in Video.JPG (475.7 KB, 37 views)