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 Renewable Energy Discussion on various alternative energy, renewable energy, & free energy technologies. Also any discussion about the environment, global warming, and other related topics are welcome here.

#1
05-06-2009, 01:41 AM
 Ted Ewert Silver Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: SF Bay Area Posts: 597
Bernoulli principal and the vortex

The Bernoulli principal has a very interesting relationship with how a vortex behaves. The Bernoulli principal states in part: "for an inviscid flow, an increase in the speed of the fluid occurs simultaneously with a decrease in pressure or a decrease in the fluid's potential energy". What this is saying is that when fluid in a pipe encounters a restriction, such as a narrowing of the pipe, the flow will increase in velocity. Along with this increase in velocity, there will be a decrease in pressure, which maintains a constant state of kinetic energy.

The venturi in a carburetor is a good example of this. As the flow of air is drawn through the throat of a carburetor, a narrowing of the diameter of the throat causes an increase in the velocity of the air with a corresponding decrease in air pressure. This low pressure is used to suck fuel out of the float bowl to be mixed with the passing air via carefully measured orifices called jets.

Another manifestation of the Bernoulli principal is found in the lift that an airfoil generates: "The relative air flow parallel to the top surface of an aircraft wing or helicopter rotor blade is faster than along the bottom surface. Bernoulli's principle states that the pressure on the surfaces of the wing or rotor blade will be lower above than below, and this pressure difference results in an upwards lift force. If the relative air flows across the top and bottom surfaces of a wing or rotor are known, then lift forces can be calculated (to a good approximation) using Bernoulli's equations — established by Bernoulli over a century before the first man-made wings were used for the purpose of flight. Note that Bernoulli's principle does not explain why the air flows faster past the top of the wing and slower past the under-side. To understand why, it is helpful to understand circulation, the Kutta condition and the Kutta–Joukowski theorem."

So, what does this have to do with a vortex? Well, a vortex exhibits many of these same traits. Within a fast moving vortex, such as in a Hilsch vortex tube, stratification occurs coaxially throughout the rotating air. If viewed on end, these layers would resemble the rings in a tree trunk.
Each of these layers is rotating at a different velocity, which is the key point. The outermost layer is rotating at the slowest rate. Each subsequent layer towards the center axis is rotating at a faster rate. This means that, according to Bernoulli, there is a negative pressure differential between each layer moving towards the center. The faster the air rotates, the more pressure is decreased. The vortex is essentially creating a vacuum in the middle.
The interesting part is that in order to create a vacuum, compression of the volume of air within the center of a vortex must occur. The vortex is a compressor! Further evidence of compression can be found in the Hilsch tube. A fundamental attribute of compression is the release of heat energy. Refrigerators and air conditioners work on this principal. A hilsch tube creates two flows of air, one hot and one cold. The cold one comes from the center of the vortex, where compression has taken place. As the air exits from the tube, it expands from it's compressed state and becomes quite cold, just as freon does in a heat pump. The heat had already been transfered to the outer layers, which when exiting the tube are very hot.

This is all very nice, but how can we use this? Well, by pulsing a vortex we can do some interesting things. I designed a vortex generator for my motorcycle which automatically gets pulsed. As the air is drawn into the cylinder, it first goes through a device which develops a strong vortex. This fast spinning column of air is fed directly through the throttle body and into the cylinder. This, in and of itself, would only serve to mix the fuel and air a little better if it weren't for and interesting thing that happens between cycles. When the intake valve closes, the air stops its linear movement, but the vortex continues to rotate. This rotation, as we saw above, continues to compress the air in the core. It also continues to draw air into the vortex by virtue of its low pressure. It becomes a turbo charger.
When the intake valve opens again, what does it get? It gets compressed air. Engines run much better on compressed air, as my bike and car have both shown. The air also has far less friction traveling through the intake tube and throttle body due to the layering of the air. This creates virtually friction free travel for the air column (no turbulence created on internal surfaces).
What I am planning to do now with this principal is to use it in a water turbine, similar to the home power unit Victor Schauberger build back in the '50s. I'll use centrifugal force to provide the pressure, and a pulsed vortex to convert it to rotational power. I've been working on this concept off and on for over a year now, but only recently solved some rather difficult mechanical issues. I'll be starting from scratch again and plan to build this device in half of a 55 gallon drum. I'll be using concepts learned from building a number of mechanical engines, as well as a few earlier turbine attampts. And, with a little help from Mr. Bernoulli and others, we'll see what happens.

Cheers,

Ted
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#2
05-06-2009, 03:43 AM
 Aaron Co-Founder & Moderator Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Washington State Posts: 10,023
air speed over wing

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Ted Ewert Note that Bernoulli's principle does not explain why the air flows faster past the top of the wing and slower past the under-side. To understand why, it is helpful to understand circulation, the Kutta condition and the Kutta–Joukowski theorem."
Ted,

I always thought that the air was faster on top of the wing because the air hitting the front of the wing will get to the back of the wing at the same time whether it goes over the top of under the bottom. The air on tops goes faster because it is forced to travel a further distance (the hump or camber of the wing) until it gets to the end of the wing. The air on bottom goes a smaller distance...almost straight line.

Is that not accurate?
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Sincerely,
Aaron Murakami

#3
05-06-2009, 06:05 AM
 Ted Ewert Silver Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: SF Bay Area Posts: 597
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Aaron Ted, I always thought that the air was faster on top of the wing because the air hitting the front of the wing will get to the back of the wing at the same time whether it goes over the top of under the bottom. The air on tops goes faster because it is forced to travel a further distance (the hump or camber of the wing) until it gets to the end of the wing. The air on bottom goes a smaller distance...almost straight line. Is that not accurate?
Hi Aaron,
I think it speeds up merely because it gets compressed. I think it does indeed have something to do with the Bernoulli principal. I took that passage from an another article which is why I put it in quotations. I should have thought it out some more.
Another interesting aspect of vorticle phenomenon, that is somewhat related to this, is gravity. If we look at atoms as a vortex within the aether, we see that pressure gets progressively lower towards the axis of rotation. Perhaps there is a corollary with planetary structure and gravity. Maybe there is a big vortex within the aether that is holding this planet together and creating gravity. Gravity may just be a pressure differential caused by variations of angular velocities within the aether.
The pulsed vortex has a lot of potential. It's a lot like a mechanical capacitor, where it can store up kinetic energy and then deliver it all at once. It has some other very intriguing possibilities too.

Ted
__________________

#4
05-06-2009, 10:01 AM
 lighty Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Croatia Posts: 388
@Ted

Hm, I always thought that in a vortex there is a higher tangential speed at the outer shell of the vortex and lower tangential speed near the centre of vortex. If you apply Bernoulli's principle to that concept one would expect to see reduced static pressure at the outer shell of vortex and lower static pressure toward the centre of vortex. That would explain a portion of friction reduction between fluid forming the vortex and the tube. Apparently the increased pressure in the inner layers of vortex should cause the fluid flow centre of vortex to its edges which should destroy vortex centripetal motion of fluid and occurence of chaotic turbulences. Of course that doesn't happen in the real life systems. The Bernoulli's principle also includes dynamic pressure (and it's relationship to static pressure- net value is always the same) and account for density of fluid.

The way I see it higher tangential speed at the outer shell of vortex is causing the reduced static pressure and reduced tangential speed toward the centre of vortex is causing increased static pressure. Of course the geometry of vortex is not a simple linear movement like the model used for representing Bernoulli's principle so there must be a specific pressure distribution between layers of different speed which should support forming and keeping the state of vortex motion of fluid.

#5
05-06-2009, 02:21 PM
 Ted Ewert Silver Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: SF Bay Area Posts: 597
Quote:
 Originally Posted by lighty @Ted Hm, I always thought that in a vortex there is a higher tangential speed at the outer shell of the vortex and lower tangential speed near the centre of vortex. If you apply Bernoulli's principle to that concept one would expect to see reduced static pressure at the outer shell of vortex and lower static pressure toward the centre of vortex. That would explain a portion of friction reduction between fluid forming the vortex and the tube. Apparently the increased pressure in the inner layers of vortex should cause the fluid flow centre of vortex to its edges which should destroy vortex centripetal motion of fluid and occurence of chaotic turbulences. Of course that doesn't happen in the real life systems. The Bernoulli's principle also includes dynamic pressure (and it's relationship to static pressure- net value is always the same) and account for density of fluid. The way I see it higher tangential speed at the outer shell of vortex is causing the reduced static pressure and reduced tangential speed toward the centre of vortex is causing increased static pressure. Of course the geometry of vortex is not a simple linear movement like the model used for representing Bernoulli's principle so there must be a specific pressure distribution between layers of different speed which should support forming and keeping the state of vortex motion of fluid. Any thoughts about this and do you have more links regarding inner structure of vortex? Now you got me interested.
Hi Lighty,
There is no question that angular velocity increases toward the axis of rotation in a vortex. I'm not quite sure if it's exponentially, but it's close.
In fact, in a Hilsch tube the air is rotating so fast that the inner core actually reverses and rotates in the opposite direction. This phenomenon is also seen in the eye of a hurricane where it is relatively calm.
Speed is key to getting a vortex to exhibit its properties. The faster it rotates, the better. This usually requires a mechanism that can convert a high pressure flow at 90 degrees to the axis of rotation, much like the Hilsch tube does.
I've designed a vortex generator using PVC pipe that develops exceptional velocity, which I'll be using in my turbine. I'll try and get a drawing together later today to clarify what I'm talking about.

Cheers,

Ted
__________________

#6
05-07-2009, 02:16 AM
 Ted Ewert Silver Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: SF Bay Area Posts: 597
OK, I'm not the best draftsman so I hope this drawing is clear. This is a simplified side view of the turbine in a 55 gallon drum. Rotation is initiated by a motor. As the turbine spins, water is drawn up and forced out to the nozzles through centrifugal force. The force of the water at the nozzles increases with angular velocity of the turbine.

This next drawing is a top view of the nozzle assembly. It shows the basic setup plus water flow.

This is a cutaway of the inside of the nozzle assembly.

As the water is forced into the tee, it is compressed and accelerated through the use of a ramp, and then the decreasing area in the tee. At the point of maximum velocity, the water enters the smaller pipe through a small slit in the bottom. This imparts maximum velocity to the outside diameter of the vortex. As the outside of a vortex spins the slowest, this further accelerates the inner layers. The high pressure, low velocity of the water in the 2" feeder pipe is converted into a high velocity vortex which acts as a compressor.
When the flow is cut off at the nozzle, the vortex continues to rotate at a high speed due to it's angular momentum. As this high speed flow passes by the virtually stationary water at the slit, it sucks water in due to the large pressure differential. As more volume gets added to a finite space in the vortex tube, some water gets "reduced in volume", but mostly the pressure starts to rise.
At this point I'm not sure exactly how high the pressure gets compared to the pressure in the feed pipe. I know it will get higher, but I think it depends on the speed and mass of the vortex at the time of closure. It also depends on the amount of time it has to build up pressure. It does need a certain interval of time to work.
Once the nozzle is opened, water is accelerated out of the vortex tube in the direction of rotation. It then hits a 180 degree deflection pipe or trough in order to convert the kinetic energy of the water into work. This deflection pipe is connected to the nozzle assembly.
The water is projected out, in the direction of rotation because this adds velocity to it. Since kinetic energy goes up as the square of the velocity, we need all the speed we can get.
There also needs to be a point of resonance for this mechanism to really work. This will be the challenge and I may have to try a variety of modulators to get the pulse frequency to correlate to the turbine's natural resonant frequency. Schauberger did it using lots of small ridges around the perimeter of his container. I'm going to start by using a rotating orifice on the nozzle.
Victor Schauberger used this general theory and configuration to construct a successful power generator so I know it can be done. I don't pretend to know a fraction of what VS did, but I'm starting to get a feeling for this mechanism.
I realize this is probably fairly unclear, so I'll be happy to answer any questions you guys have.

Cheers,

Ted
__________________

#7
05-07-2009, 12:16 PM
 lighty Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Croatia Posts: 388
I realized where I got it wrong. I considered fluid in rotational motion (like in vortex) to follow the same rules as a solid object. If that was the case my thinking would of course be correct (there would be some torsion present and material strain) but the fluid can of course exhibit layers separation due to torsion force present. So, there is indeed increase in angular velocity toward the centre of vortex.

However I found out interesting assertion
Quote:
 What is usually agreed upon is that the air in the tube experiences mostly "solid body rotation", which simply means the rotation rate (angular velocity) of the inner gas is the same as that of the outer gas. This is different from what most consider standard vortex behaviour — where inner fluid spins at a higher rate than outer fluid. The (mostly) solid body rotation is probably due to the long time which each parcel of air remains in the vortex — allowing friction between the inner parcels and outer parcels to have a notable effect. It is also usually agreed upon that there is a slight effect of hot air wanting to "rise" toward the center, but this effect is negligible — especially if turbulence is kept to a minimum. One simple explanation is that the outer air is under higher pressure than the inner air (because of centrifugal force). Therefore the temperature of the outer air is higher than that of the inner air. Another explanation is that as both vortices rotate at the same angular velocity and direction, the inner vortex has lost angular momentum. The decrease of angular momentum is transferred as kinetic energy to the outer vortex, resulting in separated flows of hot and cold gas.
Of course Wikipedia is not most reliable source but here is link.
#8
05-07-2009, 03:28 PM
 Ted Ewert Silver Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: SF Bay Area Posts: 597
Quote:
 Originally Posted by lighty I realized where I got it wrong. I considered fluid in rotational motion (like in vortex) to follow the same rules as a solid object. If that was the case my thinking would of course be correct (there would be some torsion present and material strain) but the fluid can of course exhibit layers separation due to torsion force present. So, there is indeed increase in angular velocity toward the centre of vortex. However I found out interesting assertion Of course Wikipedia is not most reliable source but here is link.
Hi Lighty,
The vortex tube drives classical physicists crazy. They try and reconcile this phenomenon using Newtonian laws, and the vortex does not operate according to their theorems. The vortex is a primary form of motion, yet it is largely misunderstood or completely ignored. Why is this not surprising?
A vortex never acts like a solid mass except when a body of air or liquid is rotating very slowly. A Hilsch tube certainly doesn't rotate as a solid mass.
Most guys get stuck on heat distribution. They wrongly assume that heat is being redistributed, or generated by friction instead of by compression. The vortex needs to be viewed as a series of coaxial pressure gradients radiating outwards from the axis of rotation. The center is centripetal, which is compressive and reduced in volume. The outside is centrifugal, which is expansive and occupies the majority of the volume. Two forces doing two different things. This is why heat is distributed the way it is.
An interesting side note; my motorcycle (with the vortex generator installed) gains noticeable power the hotter the engine gets. Just like a hurricane gains intensity while traveling over warm water, the vortex gains angular velocity when it gets heated by my engine. External heat adds pressure to the vortex. The increased pressure differential causes an increase in angular velocity, as also seen in a hurricane. This subsequently increases compression, which forces more air into the engine, producing more power.
This is not insignificant, as this is also a mechanism for directly converting heat into mechanical motion.

Cheers,

Ted
__________________

#9
05-07-2009, 04:46 PM
 Michael John Nunnerley Gold Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 1,186
Vortex/centrifugal engine

Hi Ted

This is like my idea of vortex/centrifugal engine, of which at the moment I do not have time for, but may be in the future. Look at the thread I started some time ago. If I can be of help I will post some ideas, this I believe has a great future, but is more complicated to construct. I believe that a self running motor is very possible.

Mike
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Last edited by Michael John Nunnerley; 04-09-2010 at 05:41 PM.
#10
05-08-2009, 03:14 AM
 Vortex Silver Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 899
Looks good

I'm curious as to how prime or self-prime your device.
As Mike shows a screw in his image which would self-prime.
A Archimedes Screw or spiral pump would self-prime.
It would require a higher rotation speed to void the air via
self-priming.. The air might not be voided and will be very
hard to determine if it is or isn't voided. I guess it matters
not to know this.. you just run it faster?

Capping the bottom inlet and the nozzles, the device could be primed.
The bottom inlet cap could then be removed and the device would
remain primed. Almost no changes to your current design..
trouble is how to uncapped the nozzles after the device has be
brought up to a speed that would prevent air from entering the nozzles.

I learned the hard way that an expandable rubber plug does not work
for priming a 2 inch x 4 1/2 foot tall pvc siphon.
You have to use pvc screw on caps.

A thought, a 2" 90 degree elbow upon the end will create the housing for the
high vel. vortex with an output at 90 degree to the rotor without a 180 degree elbow.

Randy
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#11
05-08-2009, 04:36 AM
 Ted Ewert Silver Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: SF Bay Area Posts: 597
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Vortex Looks good I'm curious as to how prime or self-prime your device. As Mike shows a screw in his image which would self-prime. A Archimedes Screw or spiral pump would self-prime. It would require a higher rotation speed to void the air via self-priming.. The air might not be voided and will be very hard to determine if it is or isn't voided. I guess it matters not to know this.. you just run it faster? Capping the bottom inlet and the nozzles, the device could be primed. The bottom inlet cap could then be removed and the device would remain primed. Almost no changes to your current design.. trouble is how to uncapped the nozzles after the device has be brought up to a speed that would prevent air from entering the nozzles. I learned the hard way that an expandable rubber plug does not work for priming a 2 inch x 4 1/2 foot tall pvc siphon. You have to use pvc screw on caps. A thought, a 2" 90 degree elbow upon the end will create the housing for the high vel. vortex with an output at 90 degree to the rotor without a 180 degree elbow. Randy
Hi Randy,
Priming has been a serious pain with my past turbines. I did manage to rig up an external pump that injected water up the center pipe in order to prime it. Although this works, it's a complicated joint which isn't very strong. With this new design, the nozzles will be capped, so a priming port on top of the middle tee might work. I would be using one way input ports at the bottom of the siphon pipe to prevent back flow.
I designed a bunch of "pump" adapters that fit on the bottom of the siphon, none of which worked worth a damn. I couldn't get a 2" column of water up even 6 inches!
A tee on the end of the arm is exactly what I have planned for the vortex generator. I'll use Bondo for the ramp.
I'm thinking about using a rotary modulator to pulse the flow out the vortex tube. This would consist of a self driven disc of copper which rotates on an offset axle. The disc would have a hole in it (1/2"?) with a 180 degree curved pipe attached. The pipe would be at such an angle as to provide rotational thrust to both the disc and to the turbine.
Ideally the modulator would rotate at such a rate that a resonance was established (what are the chances!). The reality will be a lot of trial and error. Just getting it to somewhat seal, as well as being able to freely rotate will be a major accomplishment.
Have you ever read any of Allan Cresswell's stuff? He's a character and has some very interesting theories. He's the one who originally got me going on these turbines.
Compelling Questions About The Grand Unified Theory

Cheers,

Ted
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#12
05-08-2009, 04:40 AM
 Ted Ewert Silver Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: SF Bay Area Posts: 597
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Michael John Nunnerley Hi Ted This is like my idea of vortex/centrifugal engine, of which at the moment I do not have time for, but may be in the future. Look at the thread I started some time ago. If I can be of help I will post some ideas, this I believe has a great future, but is more complicated to construct. I believe that a self running motor is very possible. Mike
Thanks Mike, I'll check it out.

Ted
__________________

#13
05-08-2009, 05:36 AM
 Armagdn03 Silver Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 902
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Ted Ewert The Bernoulli principal has a very interesting relationship with how a vortex behaves. The Bernoulli principal states in part: "for an inviscid flow, an increase in the speed of the fluid occurs simultaneously with a decrease in pressure or a decrease in the fluid's potential energy". What this is saying is that when fluid in a pipe encounters a restriction, such as a narrowing of the pipe, the flow will increase in velocity. Along with this increase in velocity, there will be a decrease in pressure, which maintains a constant state of kinetic energy. The venturi in a carburetor is a good example of this. As the flow of air is drawn through the throat of a carburetor, a narrowing of the diameter of the throat causes an increase in the velocity of the air with a corresponding decrease in air pressure. This low pressure is used to suck fuel out of the float bowl to be mixed with the passing air via carefully measured orifices called jets. Another manifestation of the Bernoulli principal is found in the lift that an airfoil generates: "The relative air flow parallel to the top surface of an aircraft wing or helicopter rotor blade is faster than along the bottom surface. Bernoulli's principle states that the pressure on the surfaces of the wing or rotor blade will be lower above than below, and this pressure difference results in an upwards lift force. If the relative air flows across the top and bottom surfaces of a wing or rotor are known, then lift forces can be calculated (to a good approximation) using Bernoulli's equations — established by Bernoulli over a century before the first man-made wings were used for the purpose of flight. Note that Bernoulli's principle does not explain why the air flows faster past the top of the wing and slower past the under-side. To understand why, it is helpful to understand circulation, the Kutta condition and the Kutta–Joukowski theorem." So, what does this have to do with a vortex? Well, a vortex exhibits many of these same traits. Within a fast moving vortex, such as in a Hilsch vortex tube, stratification occurs coaxially throughout the rotating air. If viewed on end, these layers would resemble the rings in a tree trunk. Each of these layers is rotating at a different velocity, which is the key point. The outermost layer is rotating at the slowest rate. Each subsequent layer towards the center axis is rotating at a faster rate. This means that, according to Bernoulli, there is a negative pressure differential between each layer moving towards the center. The faster the air rotates, the more pressure is decreased. The vortex is essentially creating a vacuum in the middle. The interesting part is that in order to create a vacuum, compression of the volume of air within the center of a vortex must occur. The vortex is a compressor! Further evidence of compression can be found in the Hilsch tube. A fundamental attribute of compression is the release of heat energy. Refrigerators and air conditioners work on this principal. A hilsch tube creates two flows of air, one hot and one cold. The cold one comes from the center of the vortex, where compression has taken place. As the air exits from the tube, it expands from it's compressed state and becomes quite cold, just as freon does in a heat pump. The heat had already been transfered to the outer layers, which when exiting the tube are very hot. This is all very nice, but how can we use this? Well, by pulsing a vortex we can do some interesting things. I designed a vortex generator for my motorcycle which automatically gets pulsed. As the air is drawn into the cylinder, it first goes through a device which develops a strong vortex. This fast spinning column of air is fed directly through the throttle body and into the cylinder. This, in and of itself, would only serve to mix the fuel and air a little better if it weren't for and interesting thing that happens between cycles. When the intake valve closes, the air stops its linear movement, but the vortex continues to rotate. This rotation, as we saw above, continues to compress the air in the core. It also continues to draw air into the vortex by virtue of its low pressure. It becomes a turbo charger. When the intake valve opens again, what does it get? It gets compressed air. Engines run much better on compressed air, as my bike and car have both shown. The air also has far less friction traveling through the intake tube and throttle body due to the layering of the air. This creates virtually friction free travel for the air column (no turbulence created on internal surfaces). What I am planning to do now with this principal is to use it in a water turbine, similar to the home power unit Victor Schauberger build back in the '50s. I'll use centrifugal force to provide the pressure, and a pulsed vortex to convert it to rotational power. I've been working on this concept off and on for over a year now, but only recently solved some rather difficult mechanical issues. I'll be starting from scratch again and plan to build this device in half of a 55 gallon drum. I'll be using concepts learned from building a number of mechanical engines, as well as a few earlier turbine attampts. And, with a little help from Mr. Bernoulli and others, we'll see what happens. Cheers, Ted
Fantastic post. Thank you for sharing your findings. They say that any old person can descripe "A" or "B" to a tee; But a genious will find the connection between.
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#14
05-08-2009, 02:10 PM
 Naboo Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Norway Posts: 50
Thank you! These vortex machines has kept me fascinated for such a long time, but that simple sketch you made of the side view, its genius!

Water will be sucked up as a results of the centrifugally forced air, and sent out of those high speed nozzles. You are feeding energy to keep the motor in a high angular speed, but you are using the centrifugal force to do work (pumping up the water). This is not the same as accelerating a flywheel, and then collect that energy again. I believe those nozzles could have aided in accelerating the wheel further, and it might even be able to keep the wheel turning without any motor (this makes me think of Schauberger motors, where they only needed a start motor, which could then be disconnected when the water a reached a critical point in its rotation).

My belief is, that once you have something oscillating, be it water, weights, current in a LC tank or whatever, you can add energy in resonance to amplify its power.
But if you tap the energy released from other side of the oscillation, than you can get much more without draining the oscillation its self to any considerable degree.

Examples of the two sides of an oscillator:

Spring with weight: the weight itself and the base it is connected to. (Milkovic...)

LC tank and an electric motor: The electricity and the magnetic force in the coils (Rotoverter)

LC tank and a transformer: The electricity and the magnetic current inside the transformer.
(my idea for a solid state infinite power supply )

Rotation wheel and centrifugal power. Your invention up here (my view anyways) and the upgraded milkovic pendulum, something I haven't built yet!
naboo.ws - Â*My dual mechanical oscillator

I think all the ways we can use and tap resonance in an oscillation is close to infinite.
Life exists as a constantly variating relationship of contrasts (oscillation), both on the Earth and in the Universe. We can tap it just as Nature does.

Also, thank you all who made this forum possible, I have learned so much while reading your posts here
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Last edited by Naboo; 05-08-2009 at 02:13 PM.
#15
05-08-2009, 04:15 PM
 Michelinho Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Quebec, Canada. Posts: 251
Hi Ted Ewert,

Quote:
 An interesting side note; my motorcycle (with the vortex generator installed) gains noticeable power the hotter the engine gets. Just like a hurricane gains intensity while traveling over warm water, the vortex gains angular velocity when it gets heated by my engine. External heat adds pressure to the vortex. The increased pressure differential causes an increase in angular velocity, as also seen in a hurricane. This subsequently increases compression, which forces more air into the engine, producing more power. This is not insignificant, as this is also a mechanism for directly converting heat into mechanical motion.
What you describe with the vortex induced is similar to a turbo compressor that gives higher compression to the engine by using the expansion of heated air on the blades of the impeller.

This can be use for generating electricity using the vortex induced spin on an impeller connected to a alternator. If I recall well, it was first promoted by a Russian physicist.

Take care,

Michel
__________________

#16
05-08-2009, 04:29 PM
 Ted Ewert Silver Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: SF Bay Area Posts: 597
Good thoughts guys! I'll be out of town until Monday, but I would like to expand on this stuff when I get back.

Take care,

Ted
__________________

#17
05-08-2009, 10:29 PM
 Vortex Silver Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 899
In priming, it is easier to just pour water into the device, but
for reference and information I add this an alternative.
You can pull a vacuum using a "no moving parts" device called an
Aspirator .. See videos

Video:Boiling Water in Less Than 30 Seconds? - Vapor Pressure Experiment

Video:Boiling Water Without Heat Using Vapor Pressure Experiment

Aspirator - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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#18
05-10-2009, 05:16 AM
 Vortex Silver Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 899
A funnel/cone spinning will pump water.

Tubes/hoses running along a cone shape would create a suction/vacuum pump.
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Remember to be kind to your mind ...
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#19
05-12-2009, 12:31 AM
 Ted Ewert Silver Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: SF Bay Area Posts: 597
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Naboo Thank you! These vortex machines has kept me fascinated for such a long time, but that simple sketch you made of the side view, its genius! Water will be sucked up as a results of the centrifugally forced air, and sent out of those high speed nozzles. You are feeding energy to keep the motor in a high angular speed, but you are using the centrifugal force to do work (pumping up the water). This is not the same as accelerating a flywheel, and then collect that energy again. I believe those nozzles could have aided in accelerating the wheel further, and it might even be able to keep the wheel turning without any motor (this makes me think of Schauberger motors, where they only needed a start motor, which could then be disconnected when the water a reached a critical point in its rotation). My belief is, that once you have something oscillating, be it water, weights, current in a LC tank or whatever, you can add energy in resonance to amplify its power. But if you tap the energy released from other side of the oscillation, than you can get much more without draining the oscillation its self to any considerable degree. Examples of the two sides of an oscillator: Spring with weight: the weight itself and the base it is connected to. (Milkovic...) LC tank and an electric motor: The electricity and the magnetic force in the coils (Rotoverter) LC tank and a transformer: The electricity and the magnetic current inside the transformer. (my idea for a solid state infinite power supply ) Rotation wheel and centrifugal power. Your invention up here (my view anyways) and the upgraded milkovic pendulum, something I haven't built yet! naboo.ws - Â*My dual mechanical oscillator I think all the ways we can use and tap resonance in an oscillation is close to infinite. Life exists as a constantly variating relationship of contrasts (oscillation), both on the Earth and in the Universe. We can tap it just as Nature does. Also, thank you all who made this forum possible, I have learned so much while reading your posts here
There is a version of this type of turbine which uses oscillations to increase the pressure at the nozzles. Alan Cresswell's design uses this principal. I have no doubt it works as he says it does, but I could never get it to that point of oscillation.
Pressure is what we are trying to build up in this device. This can be done a number of ways. The higher the angular velocity, the more pressure is built up at the nozzle. Another way to increase pressure is to lengthen the "arms". This will also increase the angular velocity at the nozzle for a given RPM. Better than increasing the length of the arms is to increase the diameter. A 3" pipe will develop a much higher pressure than a 2" pipe of the same length.
Once we reduce the flow at the nozzle to say, 1/2", the pressure causes a large rise in velocity. Since kinetic energy gets quadrupled every time velocity doubles (K=1/2 MV squared), the more pressure we develop, the more power we get.
Another thing to consider is loss. Losses come from friction, air resistance and pumping. These are pretty much fixed for any particular turbine. However, we can build up more pressure at the nozzle with very little increase in loss buy using bigger pipes. The pumping costs are only marginally increased, due to more water being expelled, but we get a big increase in static pressure at the nozzle. This also translates into more power.
Spool up costs are more since there is more mass, but this is a one time cost. Once the turbine is up to operating speed, the pressure at the nozzles remains relatively constant.
This is one of the reasons why this turbine has such potential. This configuration develops continual high pressure for very little loss. Once the turbine is running, it is self priming, so there is no need for continued external pumping. It is also a fairly simple mechanism, well within the capabilities of most competent builders. The water can be kind of a mess if you don't keep it contained, but it's only water.
Schauberger claimed his home unit could develop a lot of power (50 KW?). I expect less, but something worth investing some time and energy in developing. I want to be able to power my house, and this seems the most likely device that's within my capabilities. It also looks like a lot of fun to build.

Cheers,

Ted
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#20
05-12-2009, 12:43 AM
 Ted Ewert Silver Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: SF Bay Area Posts: 597
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Vortex A funnel/cone spinning will pump water. Document about that: http://www.brad.ac.uk/acad/rheology/...PaperCooke.PDF Tubes/hoses running along a cone shape would create a suction/vacuum pump.
That reminds me of the Clem motor. His inspiration for the motor came from an asphalt pump that used a cone type pump. He noticed that it kept pumping even after the power was turned off.
As I mentioned above, once these turbines get moving, they are self priming and will suck water up all by themselves. Getting them initially filled with water so they can operate is sometimes a challenge, since they like to leak out.

Ted
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#21
05-12-2009, 04:51 AM
 Vortex Silver Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 899
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Ted Ewert That reminds me of the Clem motor. His inspiration for the motor came from an asphalt pump that used a cone type pump. He noticed that it kept pumping even after the power was turned off. As I mentioned above, once these turbines get moving, they are self priming and will suck water up all by themselves. Getting them initially filled with water so they can operate is sometimes a challenge, since they like to leak out. Thanks for the link. Ted
You are welcome, Ted
Clem's motor used a horizontal cone. His motor/cone did not lift the working fluid.
Everything below is not my idea, I stole it all...
I have not links, but there are links. I just don't have them right now.

You are trying to lift the working fluid, That's what I was getting at, a means of lifting the working fluid, could/should be self-priming.
Priming will always be an issue and finding a self-priming method would begin to put that problem to rest.
If it is self-priming, a vacuum seal in the rest of the device is not that critical an issue as without self-priming, the rest of the device could leak like a screen door in a submarine and it would not effect the lifting of the water.
Self-priming could simplify the over all prototyping.

The document/link inspects how via centrifugal force the working fluid is pumped using only a cone/funnel (without hose/tube) and the effect of slope changes.
A cone/funnel will lift the working fluid, but not enough working fluid.
Addition of hose/tube upon the cone/funnel should allow enough working
fluid to be lifted via suction and would be self-priming.

There are a number of issues in using a cone shape with tubes.
What Slope, slope of tubes, size of tubes, rpm.
With X slope cone, at what slope does the working fluid climb X slope cone?
At what rpm...
One should use clear tubes in order to watch for cavitation.
If scoops were created on a sealed (or not sealed) 2" pvc pipe would those scoops create a vortex that would travel up the vertical pvc pipe?

just
Randy
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#22
05-13-2009, 12:09 AM
 Ted Ewert Silver Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: SF Bay Area Posts: 597
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Vortex You are welcome, Ted Clem's motor used a horizontal cone. His motor/cone did not lift the working fluid. Everything below is not my idea, I stole it all... I have not links, but there are links. I just don't have them right now. You are trying to lift the working fluid, That's what I was getting at, a means of lifting the working fluid, could/should be self-priming. Priming will always be an issue and finding a self-priming method would begin to put that problem to rest. If it is self-priming, a vacuum seal in the rest of the device is not that critical an issue as without self-priming, the rest of the device could leak like a screen door in a submarine and it would not effect the lifting of the water. Self-priming could simplify the over all prototyping. The document/link inspects how via centrifugal force the working fluid is pumped using only a cone/funnel (without hose/tube) and the effect of slope changes. A cone/funnel will lift the working fluid, but not enough working fluid. Addition of hose/tube upon the cone/funnel should allow enough working fluid to be lifted via suction and would be self-priming. There are a number of issues in using a cone shape with tubes. What Slope, slope of tubes, size of tubes, rpm. With X slope cone, at what slope does the working fluid climb X slope cone? At what rpm... One should use clear tubes in order to watch for cavitation. If scoops were created on a sealed (or not sealed) 2" pvc pipe would those scoops create a vortex that would travel up the vertical pvc pipe? just Randy
Hi Randy,
Good thoughts.
Two "V" shaped pipes would probably work, but I have limited space to work within (21"). When I get the tub set up I'll try a few different configurations.
My only concern with this type of feed is if it will decrease the pressure at the nozzle. It will also have to have a cone shaped skirt fit around it to minimize drag through the standing water.
I've tried scoops and they don't work well either. I think I may hook up an electric pump that can fill the turbine enough to start it running. Then I'll just turn off the pump and let it go. That may be easier than fooling around with a self priming configuration right now.

Ted
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#23
05-25-2009, 09:38 PM
 Naboo Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Norway Posts: 50
Thinking in terms of the two stage oscillator....

Hey thank you for your reply Ted, lots of good tips you gave me there

I know that this topic might be mainly about using the power of vortexes to increase the output power, especially the kinetic energy.

But you got me very interested because that generally simple design you made would simplify the operation of a full scale 2-stage oscillator with feedback enormously, and probably make it many times more efficient because you remove all the losses related to cranks, belt, pullyes and all other part connected with friction.
Well you have must have a belt if you don't connect the driving motor directly on the shaft of the main motor (also something Schauberger did).

Anyway, I made a rough sketch of it in Maya with some backround to make it easier to see, though the machine itself is not colored yet:

I also got images in fullscreen if wanted.
That thing on the top is to connect to the belt, and the bottom is to be bolted in the container or water source which it rests in.

And just so you all know, this was purely made by the inspiration of Ted's sketches, so this design is not really made by me.

-Julian
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Last edited by Naboo; 05-25-2009 at 09:48 PM.
#24
05-26-2009, 12:09 AM
 Ted Ewert Silver Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: SF Bay Area Posts: 597
Nice concept you have there Julian. I like your drawings. How are you going to connect that to a two stage?
I'm still in the process of building my turbine, and I've also been giving the whole concept some closer scrutiny.
I did some tests with a vortex generating nozzle. Besides being a complex mechanism to construct, it didn't provide as much extra power as I hoped. I didn't do a thorough test so there are still some things I want to try, however, I'm now leaning towards an oscillating (water hammer) type design. This is much simpler, and an easier place to start anyway.
I'm convinced there has to be some sort of resonance in order to generate the kind of pressure at the nozzle which will produce usable power. Schauberger and Cresswell both used resonance to modulate the flow out of the nozzles into a pulse stream.
If I can get a shock wave bouncing back and forth between both nozzles, this will provide a very high pressure pulse to the flow. Of course, getting to this point will be the challenge.
Anyway, I'll start a new thread once I get it built (or sooner if there is any interest in the construction process).

Cheers,

Ted
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#25
05-26-2009, 01:15 AM
 Naboo Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Norway Posts: 50
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Ted Ewert Nice concept you have there Julian. I like your drawings. How are you going to connect that to a two stage? I'm still in the process of building my turbine, and I've also been giving the whole concept some closer scrutiny. I did some tests with a vortex generating nozzle. Besides being a complex mechanism to construct, it didn't provide as much extra power as I hoped. I didn't do a thorough test so there are still some things I want to try, however, I'm now leaning towards an oscillating (water hammer) type design. This is much simpler, and an easier place to start anyway. I'm convinced there has to be some sort of resonance in order to generate the kind of pressure at the nozzle which will produce usable power. Schauberger and Cresswell both used resonance to modulate the flow out of the nozzles into a pulse stream. If I can get a shock wave bouncing back and forth between both nozzles, this will provide a very high pressure pulse to the flow. Of course, getting to this point will be the challenge. Anyway, I'll start a new thread once I get it built (or sooner if there is any interest in the construction process). Cheers, Ted

Well, it is the two stage...

The energy fed into the system is in the form of angular velocity, while the energy output is in the form of centrifugal force (the water pressure).
If you compeer it to the standard Milkovic pendulum, you input energy in in the form of angular velocity (by pushing the pendulum around its axis), but you collect the energy from its weight + its centrifugal force (or really its centripetal force).

This:

Is really a simplified version of this:

Both are theoretically closed loop feedback versions of a 2-stage oscillator, though of course I haven't build them yet

The key is to completely separate the type of energy which enters the oscillating system (a wheel which rotates can be looked on as an oscillator), and the type of energy which is used on an external load in this system.

I know I might have confused some people by calling it an oscillator, but in my view anything which constantly changes, going back and forth, is an oscillator and a wheel does just that. And you could say that the only thing which is needed to create resonance with a wheel is to have a higher rpm than the wheel already have. Then you will aid the the wheel's oscillation for every time you input energy, even if only by a small amount.

Btw, one thing you could try is to have an ending on the water outlets which start with a whirled form and turns into a straight form. In this way, if you got it to whirl in the same direction as the water, you could convert the rotational energy into forward velocity.

This could affect the output of water though...
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Last edited by Naboo; 12-08-2009 at 10:51 PM.
#26
05-26-2009, 02:15 PM
 Ted Ewert Silver Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: SF Bay Area Posts: 597
You're getting there. Keep thinking about mass and velocity.
Here is a question for you: If you want to accelerate the liquid through the nozzle for maximum absolute velocity, which direction should the nozzle be pointing?

Ted
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#27
05-26-2009, 03:58 PM
 Naboo Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Norway Posts: 50
With the direction of rotation I would guess...
The maximum velocity of the fluid would be the greatest then in relation to its surroundings, but it would be going against the motor instead of going with the motor.

So yes it would be fastest that way, but if pointing the other way the fluid would in relation to the motor create a force which pushed the motor further, though its motion would seem a bit slow to someone watching.
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#28
05-26-2009, 10:04 PM
 Ted Ewert Silver Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: SF Bay Area Posts: 597
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Naboo With the direction of rotation I would guess... The maximum velocity of the fluid would be the greatest then in relation to its surroundings, but it would be going against the motor instead of going with the motor. So yes it would be fastest that way, but if pointing the other way the fluid would in relation to the motor create a force which pushed the motor further, though its motion would seem a bit slow to someone watching.
You're right, the flow has to be in the direction of rotation. This doesn't mean we can't turn it around after it's been accelerated. All we need is a pipe bent in a 180 degree curve.
Once the water is accelerated, then we harvest the energy. It took me a while to figure that one out, but if you examine the tip configuration of Schauberger's tornado machine, he does roughly the same thing.

Ted
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#29
05-27-2009, 04:23 PM
 Naboo Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Norway Posts: 50
Oh no....

First I didn't understand why you would bend the pipe, then when you explained it now I see how that would aid its acceleration, and that it will make a difference.

However, at least if you want to exploit the difference of centrifugal force and angular momentum as is necessary if you want to use it as a 2 stage oscillator, this will not improve its total momentum at all.

Since you are first taking some of the energy residing in the motors rpm, that will be lost and then returned when you allow the extra accelerated water to push on the motor again.
See, you are only taking some energy from its angular momentum, then you are using that same energy again to aid it again.

I think this approach is fundamentally and principally different from using the potential "static" increase in pressure which you get when water is centrifugally rotated.
I am of course not sure, but this can possibly make it much harder for you to both build an use the machine....
I'm sorry for giving you such a negative response
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#30
05-27-2009, 04:31 PM
 Naboo Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Norway Posts: 50
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Naboo Oh no.... First I didn't understand why you would bend the pipe, then when you explained it now I see how that would aid its acceleration, and that it will make a difference. However, at least if you want to exploit the difference of centrifugal force and angular momentum as is necessary if you want to use it as a 2 stage oscillator, this will not improve its total momentum at all. Since you are first taking some of the energy residing in the motors rpm, that will be lost and then returned when you allow the extra accelerated water to push on the motor again. See, you are only taking some energy from its angular momentum, then you are using that same energy again to aid it again. I think this approach is fundamentally and principally different from using the potential "static" increase in pressure which you get when water is centrifugally rotated. I am of course not sure, but this can possibly make it much harder for you to both build an use the machine.... I'm sorry for giving you such a negative response
Wait... Am I completely wrong here!?!?!

Yes, you are using the rotation of the motor to accelerate the water inside further, but the water is still inside the motor, then how can any energy be lost from the motor???

Maybe this can work......
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Last edited by Naboo; 05-27-2009 at 04:34 PM.

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