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  #121  
Old 03-07-2009, 01:01 AM
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Quote:
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Lighty,

Normally, I agree, you can't do 0 or negative volts with current to charge a coil in a conventionally charged closed loop coil. But...

Leedskalnin's "perpetual magnet holder" - this is current with zero voltage. After the current is established (with voltage to begin with), it remains that way - circulating. When it is disconnected, then the field collapses and gives some voltage from the induction...this is cold magnetic current circulating with no back emf at all... current and zero voltage.
Emery Version - Leedskalnin Perpetual Motion Holder - KeelyNet 06/05/03
The magnetic current is circulating at negative resistance with no voltage potential difference in the circuit at all...just like a permanent magnet.

There are other ways to maintain current in a coil after power is disconnected.

There are also other variations that deviate from what is normally expected.

I generally do agree with your asesment of PMH, however we were talking about conventional coils used to produce inductive collapse spikes.
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  #122  
Old 03-07-2009, 01:08 AM
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unconventional current

LOL, agreed. But I do want to lead to that eventually in a different thread.
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  #123  
Old 03-07-2009, 10:15 AM
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This is ALL related and Leedscalnin PMH is a proof for useful WORK that can be done using Earth magnetic field.

The effect is weak, radiant spike particularly in low voltage circuits,but IMHO when it is played many times in circle it can create work by using magnetic field.

In PMH seems there is static magnetic field created which holds a lever,but I bet there are others configurations of iron and copper coils which create PULSATING magnetic field FOR FREE.

Then there is only one trouble - a coil which generates current by induction must be put in that pulsating field AND that coil surplus current must be SYNCHRONIZED with original closed-circuit flowing current. POSITIVE FEEDBACK.

Either device such constructed will break from large current or create large and sustaining power output.

I've always said so, theory is simple and you will see that A LOT of free energy devices are using this scheme :

- create a lot of very weak but overunity 'kicks' in completely closed path
- use weak magnetic field generated by kicks to produce current (mostly on conductor surface)
- use positive feedback
- use a regulator to prevent damage to device

The simplest regulator is to CLOSE positive feedback loop using LOAD of some minimum resistance or impedance (vide Sweet VTA)
That's not a very good way but it seems to work.
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  #124  
Old 03-14-2009, 12:39 PM
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Aaron

@ Aaron

For arguments sake, lets swap positions. I'm the believer and You are the skeptic.

How do You, the skeptic, explain this experiment?

Circuit: Battery, switch, coil and big cap in series, the same coil, diode and another small cap in series.
Both caps are empty.

Switch is turned on and then quickly off.

All electrons leaving the battery when the switch is on ends up in the big cap in series (and as the cap is big the current is not hindered that much).
When the switch is turned off the current from the battery is stopped, the current into the big cap is stopped, but still some electrons wind up in the second small cap.

Where did the extra electrons in the small cap come from?
What did I miss?
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  #125  
Old 03-14-2009, 07:11 PM
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charging a cap

Hi Nilrehob,

That is a nice simple experiment but I believe it is an assumption that there are electrons winding up in the small capacitor just because there is charge...there could be some electrons that wind up there but that isn't what charges the cap...the charge in that small cap is a potential charge and is different than a cap charged with straight hot current.

The electron model is only a theory as there is no proof that electrons exist... just something to keep in mind.

The properties are different, the sparks when shorted are different color and for the same voltage, it can jump farther than the normal gap compared to a hot current charged capacitor. A capacitor charged with inductive spikes are like an aerosol can that you pressurize with gas, literally.

If you get a chance, please read this by Eric Dollard:
Eric Dollard Notes (1986--1991)
Read the Introduction to Dielectricity and Capacitance on pages
26-29 in the pdf.
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  #126  
Old 03-14-2009, 08:34 PM
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Ah, come on Aaron, visit the other side and explain it as a skeptic would!

You may quote it and say: "This is what a skeptic would say:".
And after that, You, I or someone else will shot it down.

Its good exercise for the mind, and often a good way to prove something.
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  #127  
Old 03-14-2009, 09:00 PM
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You keep saying your skeptic, have you not been able to get somthing working that you can measure?

I don't understand your need to go on and push for a conventional explanation of anything. OR challenge everything.
You either believe or you don't.
You either look for the truth or don't.

So whats the story with you?

Answer if you want, maybe I am just not following the jest of the conversation.

Matt
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  #128  
Old 03-15-2009, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
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@nilrehob
You keep saying your skeptic, have you not been able to get somthing working that you can measure?
I'm working with the Tesla-switch, trying different variants for about 70h and measuring the voltage on the batteries during each run. Its quite time-consuming, but I'm not in a hurry, and the batteries are quite unpredictable little animals. I'm not done yet, so it's too early for me to draw any conclusions yet. But I'll let You know when I do if anyone is interested.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Jones View Post
I don't understand your need to go on and push for a conventional explanation of anything. OR challenge everything.
You either believe or you don't.
You either look for the truth or don't.
I don't challenge everything.
I don't believe it ... yet.
I am looking for the truth. But in my own way, it seems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Jones View Post
So whats the story with you?
If I'm scaring, annoying or making anyone uncomfortable I beg You to forgive me.

But...

The coil-spike-thing is quite central in many applications, and I really want to understand it. So far none of the explanations for it have convinced me.

Right now I'm trying to explain it from another angle.
By using the skeptics way of reasoning I'm hoping to find a situation that cannot be explained conventionally. Thats all.

So now I'm going to do all the math I can on the circuit in my previous post and see what it gives me.

If this forum is not interested in this kind of discussion, just let me know and I'll stop!
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  #129  
Old 03-15-2009, 10:05 AM
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process

Hob,

To see the truth you cannot be skeptical...but you also can't be so open-minded your brains fall out. lol

In my opinion, this is what I feel is a productive way of approaching things like this: I'm not skeptical nor am I automatically believing in something out of gullibility.

I do my best to see something with no judgment whatsoever and I simply observe what is going on and what I wind up believing is based on the results and I could care less what is "supposed" to be the case. What is self-evident carries more weight than any opinion on the matter by anyone else on the same matter.

My belief is always subject to change if something appears that makes more sense then the belief or model adjusts and adapts.

It is about as simple as that and to progress in this direction, I never have to be skeptical, which is a pre-judgment against even seeing something to the contrary and that is the primary inhibitor of real progress or real thinking, in my opinion.
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  #130  
Old 03-15-2009, 10:49 AM
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If this forum is not interested in this kind of discussion, just let me know and I'll stop!
I am OK with the discussion. I just didn't understand the direction of it. Some people become skeptics cause they have a hard time getting things going.

And if your little TS setup isn't convincing you write me. I'll give you one that will. Or I'll be publishing it soon as it gets picture worthy.

Matt
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  #131  
Old 03-15-2009, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
In my opinion, this is what I feel is a productive way of approaching things like this: I'm not skeptical nor am I automatically believing in something out of gullibility.
Thats exactly why I call myself a skeptic enthusiast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Jones View Post
I am OK with the discussion. I just didn't understand the direction of it. Some people become skeptics cause they have a hard time getting things going.
Like I said, batteries are strange and unpredictable little animals, thats why I sometimes rerun a setup between other setups, just to find that it got different the second time, strange little animals they are those batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Jones View Post
And if your little TS setup isn't convincing you write me. I'll give you one that will. Or I'll be publishing it soon as it gets picture worthy.
Please do publish it!

---

It feels too often that there are two churches, the skepticals church and the believers church, and that if You are not with a church You are against it, regardless of which church.
I was really hoping that a new approach, by explaining the spike the skeptical way and then proving it wrong, would make the discussion going again, but I was wrong.
I give up!
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  #132  
Old 03-15-2009, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
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Thats exactly why I call myself a skeptic enthusiast.



Like I said, batteries are strange and unpredictable little animals, thats why I sometimes rerun a setup between other setups, just to find that it got different the second time, strange little animals they are those batteries



Please do publish it!

---

It feels too often that there are two churches, the skepticals church and the believers church, and that if You are not with a church You are against it, regardless of which church.
I was really hoping that a new approach, by explaining the spike the skeptical way and then proving it wrong, would make the discussion going again, but I was wrong.
I give up!

Hi Hob

Nothing can be proved right or wrong in this 'free energy' game its just a matter of interpretation and belief. I don't believe that OU is possible I'm still looking for the proof that I'm wrong. Others have already claimed OU and are looking to see proof that they are wrong. IMO its pointless arguing the toss. Just state your case and leave it at that.

I don't see the spike as anything special, others do and that's fine with me.

Hoppy
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  #133  
Old 03-15-2009, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
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Just state your case and leave it at that.

I don't see the spike as anything special, others do and that's fine with me.
Although I don't have a case yet, You are certainly right, and I will.
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  #134  
Old 03-15-2009, 06:32 PM
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@Aaron

I agree with you on this one. One can hold two opposing ideas in one's mind and value both of them equally (at the beginning). It is a tricky thing to do at first but it's doable and is known in psychology to be possible. I do it all the time.

For example I can have a gut feeling (intuition if you will) to accept certain concepts and ideas that are seemingly exotic. I can also hold in my mind a completely skeptical point of view. Then, as I progress in my way of thinking and experimenting (either mentally or practically) I will try to give support to both ideas and I will try to disprove them both. After a certain time one idea will prevail. The real trick is to indeed look at both ideas as to what they are - just ideas. They can be changed any time when new evidences come along. I think of it as a argumented scientific discussion inside one's mind.

It may seem that there is apparent dichotomy in this way of looking at things but there really is none. So, I will question everything and everybody no matter how much I wish something was true. There is no any scientific "prophet" so holly that his ideas are above examination. That's the way science works. Everything other than that is faith. And faith have no place in scientific process.

Last edited by lighty; 03-15-2009 at 08:33 PM.
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  #135  
Old 03-15-2009, 08:07 PM
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misquote

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Originally Posted by nilrehob View Post
Please do publish it!
You quoted me but I didn't say that
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  #136  
Old 03-16-2009, 06:45 AM
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Quote:
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You quoted me but I didn't say that
My mistake, I quoted Matt, sorry
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  #137  
Old 04-17-2009, 08:35 AM
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I would like to discuss how to minimize the energy-loss in a coil by using the established formulas in the textbooks (to start with).

According to textbooks:
* the time-constant for a coil is T=L/R
* the current in a coil is I=U/R (1-e^-t/T)
* the energy in a coil (possibly coming out of it) is E(o)=1/2 LI^2
* the energy fed into a coil is E(i)=UIt

If I remember my calculus class correct, then E(i)=U^2 /R (t+Te^-t/T).

In the attachment I have made a graph, x-axis is t going from 0 to 5T (which is considered when a coil is saturated).

The lines are:
* blue E(i) energy going in the coil
* red E(o) energy coming out from it (when current is shut off)
* yellow E(i-o) energy loss
* green E(o/(i-o)) energy out:loss ratio
* brown E(o/i) energy out:in ratio

My conclusions, based on this, is that the time the current is going through a coil is best to be kept at a minimum.

My guess is that this explains the rather complex commutator in Newmans motor, where the coil is fed by many short pulses for each turn?

Any comments or corrections anyone?
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File Type: jpg coil-energy.jpg (18.7 KB, 238 views)
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  #138  
Old 04-18-2009, 04:51 PM
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Is there really no one who dares to comment on this?
I'm not saying that there are no such thing as radiant energy, and I never will (simply because I don't know), thats not the debate anymore. Really!

So come on; has anyone had any experience concerning shorter or longer pulses into a coil in regard to efficiency?
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  #139  
Old 04-18-2009, 05:26 PM
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For the optimum input/recovery ratio of some particular coil the duration of the energising impulse should be such to provide maximum core saturation and should not last a moment longer. When you stop energizing current at the point of maximum core saturation (depending on the permeability of core material and on the hysteresis curve characteristic) you will get maximum recovery for that particular coil.

The point is, you can only saturate core material up to a maximum point and after that you can prolong duration of energising impulse to infinity, waste as much energy as you want and you will still get same recovery. In short, one should adjust duty cycle so that it ensures maximum core saturation and should not prolong its duration after that point.

Last edited by lighty; 04-18-2009 at 05:31 PM.
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  #140  
Old 04-18-2009, 07:11 PM
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Thanks for the reply, lighty!

So Your recommendation is to energize it as long as 5T (where T=L/R) ?
I'm thinking perhaps of a much shorter time.

Have You looked at the graphs in my post above?
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  #141  
Old 04-18-2009, 07:35 PM
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The simplest way for you to optimize duration of impulse would be to do it with oscilloscope by measuring current curve and look for the saturation plateau. I described the whole procedure somewhere in Lindemann attraction motor thread. I mean you can do calculations to get some general values but the moment something changes (different batch of material, different geometry, different semiconductor etc.) you will have to recalculate it all over again. I personaly calculate some general values but then I adjust everything manually.
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  #142  
Old 04-19-2009, 04:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nilrehob View Post
Is there really no one who dares to comment on this?
I'm not saying that there are no such thing as radiant energy, and I never will (simply because I don't know), thats not the debate anymore. Really!

So come on; has anyone had any experience concerning shorter or longer pulses into a coil in regard to efficiency?
I did a test on just this very concept. Using two four pound repulsion coils, the first discharge was at a normal speed, but the second discharge was faster due to magnetic quenching. With the same energy in both pulses, the faster pulse produced more kick.





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  #143  
Old 04-19-2009, 07:24 AM
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It all depends on what the goal is: do You want as much energy from the coil in the spike as possible, or do You want as high energy out/in ratio as possible.

I'm aiming for the second one: to get as high energy out/in ratio as possible, to make it as efficient as possible and not waste any energy.
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  #144  
Old 04-19-2009, 07:26 AM
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Quote:
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I did a test on just this very concept. Using two four pound repulsion coils, the first discharge was at a normal speed, but the second discharge was faster due to magnetic quenching. With the same energy in both pulses, the faster pulse produced more kick.

Cool! I wonder how short the input can be without making the output energy too small for any good use?
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  #145  
Old 04-19-2009, 11:47 AM
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@nilrehob
You already got your answer. Core can be saturated to some maximum value and no matter what you do and how much additional energy you give you cannot saturate it further.
So the ratio is the same in both cases- if you want maximum energy from the coil you drive it to saturation and then immediately discharge it. If you want best input/recovery ration you drive it to saturation and then immediately discharge it. The only thing you have to observe is to drive coil to the point of saturation (on the time scale) and then immediately discharge it.

The easiest way to set the optimum ratio (which is at the same time maximum recovery) is to watch current graph on your scope. You can do that either by current transformer or by measuring voltage drop over shunt. Start with the shortest duty cycle and then slowly prolong it. You will see, as your duty cycle gets longer that current graph on your scope also gets longer but it rises in a rather linear way. At a certain point your graph will reach a kind of plateau where it suddenly is not linear any more. That means that you either reached point of complete saturation or that you're at least so close to it that you would have to add unproportionally large amount of energy to saturate it even a little more. So, now that you've determined best duty cycle for that coil and that given frequency you can check out the recovery spike and you will notice that no matter what you do it won't get any higher. Also, now that you know the current needed for complete saturation you can easily calculate number of ampere/turns so you can adjust number of turns of your coil (when using that core) to suit your particular needs (this is when calculation is very handy).

It's all extremely simple and I don't see a need to make it more complex for all the practical reasons. Yes we can discuss some other topics like Q factor, effect of temperature on the maximum core saturation, the effect of capacitance of windings, geometry of core and coil, the ways to further increase maximum saturation of core etc. However, I doubt most of the people will be able to follow the discussion and there are more suitable forums on the net dealing with EE on which one can discuss such things. Also I think that info on setting the proper duty cycle for some given coil and frequency is what most people are seeking after.


@Electrotek
Input/recovery ratio is almost linear up to a point of core saturation. It's very obvious when looking at the current curve on the scope and it's easier to measure it. Nice experiment though.

Last edited by lighty; 04-19-2009 at 11:52 AM.
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  #146  
Old 04-19-2009, 11:52 AM
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@lighty Your missing the point.
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  #147  
Old 04-19-2009, 11:55 AM
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@nilrehob

How so?
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  #148  
Old 04-19-2009, 12:06 PM
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@Lightly
What would be the best way to calculate core saturation based on the materials with in a core. Or where is a good place to find some of that data.

Thanks
Matt
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  #149  
Old 04-19-2009, 12:43 PM
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@lighty

By using the the formulas that I'm aware of I have found a (well-known) non-linearity in the way coils behave.
The formulas are probably not correct in the way that we are using the coils (with our abrupt disconnection), just as Newtons formulas are not correct when speed is very high, but these are the formulas that I currently know and understand.

If my calculations are correct and they have some connection to reality, it seems like we might increase efficiency by not waiting until the coil is fully saturated (which theoretically never happen but by practical reason is being considered at 5*T where T=L/R) and then cut off the supply, but to only connect it for a fraction of T before disconnecting it.

If I'm right one should energize the coil as short as possible with as high voltage as possible. Only in this way will the reactant part of the coil be fully used.

It's all in the non-linearity of the functions in the graphs:
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  #150  
Old 04-19-2009, 12:53 PM
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@matt

Here are lots of info on coils, maybe You can find something useful:
Producing wound components
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