Energetic Forum  
Facebook Twitter Google+ Pinterest LinkedIn Delicious Digg Reddit WordPress StumbleUpon Tumblr Translate Addthis Aaron Murakami YouTube ONLY 13% OF SEATS AVAILABLE!!!*** 2017 ENERGY CONFERENCE ***


* NEW * BEDINI RPX BOOK & DVD SET: BEDINI RPX


Go Back   Energetic Forum > >
   

Renewable Energy Discussion on various alternative energy, renewable energy, & free energy technologies. Also any discussion about the environment, global warming, and other related topics are welcome here.

Bedini RPX Sideband Generator
Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #61  
Old 02-28-2009, 05:10 PM
darkwizard's Avatar
darkwizard darkwizard is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Argentina
Posts: 338
Send a message via MSN to darkwizard
Put a 85 v neon light and a 4.7k 1watt resistance between the collector of the transistor and the emitter this will prevent any damage to the transistor.
__________________
 
Reply With Quote

Download SOLAR SECRETS by Peter Lindemann
Free - Get it now: Solar Secrets

  #62  
Old 02-28-2009, 06:14 PM
nilrehob's Avatar
nilrehob nilrehob is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Sweden
Posts: 683
@ Jetijs

Nice motors!

My scope is a dual-channel, so I just did a test with one over the coil to get the voltage and one over a resistor in series to get the amp. The voltage is a square-wave while the amp is a sawtooth-wave.

But no spike as on Your and everybody else's shots

I'll take a timeout from this thread now and build the SS SSG in between my Tesla switch tests.
If I don't get the mysterious spike with it I guess I'll have to stop being a skeptic enthusiast and become a regular enthusiast, it might help

@ darkwizard

I will, thanks.
The first time I encountered the SSG was on one of Sephiroth's very good vids on you-tube;
"don't forget the neon!" he said, and I won't
__________________
Hob Nilre
http://www.youtube.com/nilrehob
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 02-28-2009, 07:49 PM
nilrehob's Avatar
nilrehob nilrehob is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Sweden
Posts: 683
I just did a quick build of the SS SSG, I was too curious to make a proper build.
Its working like a charm although it looks like a crows nest with all wires everywhere.
The battery being charged is climbing fast and if I replace it with the small cap I've been using it shoots like a rocket.
Thank You neon!

But the scope looks just like before. No extra spike anywhere.
You guys must be kidding me!

I'll see if I can tune it with other resistors or whatever tomorrow.
Good night!
__________________
Hob Nilre
http://www.youtube.com/nilrehob
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 02-28-2009, 07:58 PM
darkwizard's Avatar
darkwizard darkwizard is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Argentina
Posts: 338
Send a message via MSN to darkwizard
I`t is suppossed to give you another spike? NO
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 02-28-2009, 08:30 PM
Aaron's Avatar
Aaron Aaron is offline
Co-Founder & Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Washington State
Posts: 10,563
charging batt takes spike

Quote:
Originally Posted by nilrehob View Post
The battery being charged is climbing fast and if I replace it with the small cap I've been using it shoots like a rocket.
Thank You neon!

But the scope looks just like before. No extra spike anywhere.
You guys must be kidding me!
The battery or capacitor being charged is soaking up the spike.
__________________
Sincerely,
Aaron Murakami

Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 02-28-2009, 08:44 PM
Jetijs's Avatar
Jetijs Jetijs is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,134
Quote:
Originally Posted by nilrehob View Post

But the scope looks just like before. No extra spike anywhere.
You guys must be kidding me!
You must disconnect the battery to see the spikes, because if a battery or cap is attached, it absorbs the spike. You can do this for a short time, but there will be a risk to damage the transistor. Also a neon across the transistor will not show the real spike, because neon will start to conduct at 90v. To see the spike in full magnitude, you must remove the neon and disconnect the charging battery or cap. But do that quick or else the transistor will fry.
__________________
It's better to wear off by working than to rust by doing nothing.
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 02-28-2009, 09:20 PM
ren's Avatar
ren ren is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,108
Jet is right Heed what he has to say!


I upgraded my trifilar to a quadfilar and upon testing it for transients I popped all three MJL's almost instantly. Funny, I could run it on two power windings quite comfortably without a load connected. As soon as I moved to three it just packs it in if there is no load.

Also worth noting that you should be able to see the start of the spike even with the battery connected. Mine got larger (with load connected) when I went up to three power wires.
__________________
"Once you've come to the conclusion that what what you know already is all you need to know, then you have a degree in disinterest." - John Dobson
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 03-01-2009, 10:56 AM
nilrehob's Avatar
nilrehob nilrehob is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Sweden
Posts: 683
@ Aaron, Jetijs and ren

First I thought: "Yeah, thats it! The cap/bat is absorbing the spike, thats why It doesn't show up on the scope." and went to test it on my SSG-fan. Sure, there was the spike once I had disconnected the neon and cap/bat, and two echoes each about a tenth in size of the one before.

But then the skeptic in me came back: "Of course it's an even higher spike now, it's the same as before, just compressed in time a bit more which makes it higher!"



How do You get both the by-classic-science-unknown-radiant-spike and the good-old-measurable-and-calculable-spike on the scope at the same time?
__________________
Hob Nilre
http://www.youtube.com/nilrehob
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 03-01-2009, 02:11 PM
Matthew Jones's Avatar
Matthew Jones Matthew Jones is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,620
The the energy that shows up in spikes from a radient discharge travels at high speeds. They are of such high frequency and that you can only see them on a scope when they are going to a load (IE Voltage burning in the neon). They slow down enough that the scope can draw them.
When you add a charge battery to your system the actual radiant part of the spike has a bigger pipe to travel and the scope can no longer see it at its full voltage.
You should with a charge battery hooked be able to see the base of the spike. This is the point at which the PURE voltage spike starts to convert to a heavier mass and create and mix with the input current.
The spike will go from 300-500volt down to 30 +- volt.
This why on scope when looking at the spikes in the full veiw, they will expand at the base. But the tops do not stretch as you focus the scope in on them.

Matt
__________________
ADD BROMIKEY TO YOUR IGNORE LIST He is a saboteur bent on the systematic distraction of every good topic on this forum and since he has been here most working threads have shut down. He is the enemy. If you have blocked him already add this to your signature and encourage others to block him as well. His onslaught of rambling in large text and his constant attempts to misinform at the excuse of being stupid should no longer be tolerated.

USER CP/Ignore list.
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 03-01-2009, 05:15 PM
darkwizard's Avatar
darkwizard darkwizard is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Argentina
Posts: 338
Send a message via MSN to darkwizard
Nilrehob i understand what you are saying, there isn't any extra spike here, the energy that you input to the coil is converted in high voltage.

There is what Tesla discovered, Tesla discovered that the auto induced emf spike is higher in potential than EMF and it called radiant, nothing else.

Any person with a background of electronics knows what is this spike but they ignore it, they simply call this spike BACK EMF
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 03-01-2009, 05:36 PM
nilrehob's Avatar
nilrehob nilrehob is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Sweden
Posts: 683
Then why make it so mystical?
Is this the best way to handle the "free energy" critics?
__________________
Hob Nilre
http://www.youtube.com/nilrehob
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 03-01-2009, 07:45 PM
Aaron's Avatar
Aaron Aaron is offline
Co-Founder & Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Washington State
Posts: 10,563
The spike is NOT back emf

Back EMF "voltage" is lower than the input voltage 100% of the time. Back EMF is NOT the spike, period - it has been spelled out clearly that Back EMF is NOT the spike.

I would appreciate no more comments about calling the spike Back EMF because it is NOT WHAT THE SPIKE IS. It is misinformation plain and simple and everyone using the term back emf for the spike is simply doing so incorrectly - out of not even knowing what the difference is.

LOOK AT THE CHRONOLOGY OF EVENTS - it is common sense:

1. You charge a coil.
2. DURING the applied charge on the coil, LENZ's Law is in effect and you get BACK EMF - DURING THE APPLIED CHARGE.
3. You disconnect the power and you get the spike.

It is no more complicated than that...you get the spike AFTER the applied power and AFTER the Back EMF have DISAPPEARED.
__________________
Sincerely,
Aaron Murakami

Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 03-01-2009, 08:19 PM
darkwizard's Avatar
darkwizard darkwizard is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Argentina
Posts: 338
Send a message via MSN to darkwizard
Flyback diode - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Induction at the Opening of a Contact

According to Lenz's law, if the current through an inductance changes, this inductance induces a voltage so the current will go on flowing as long there is energy in the magnetic field. If the current can only flow through the air, the voltage is therefore so high that the air conducts. That is why in mechanically-switched circuits, the near-instantaneous dissipation which occurs without a flyback diode is often observed as an arc across the opening mechanical contacts. Energy is dissipated in this arc primarily as intense heat which causes undesireable premature erosion of the contacts. Some energy is also lost from the system as a whole and from the arc as a broad spectrum of electromagnetic radiation, in the form of radiowaves and light. These radiowaves can cause undesirable clicks and pops on nearby radio receivers.
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 03-01-2009, 08:20 PM
Aaron's Avatar
Aaron Aaron is offline
Co-Founder & Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Washington State
Posts: 10,563
What is Back EMF

This is an old scope shot from my 2000 turn trifilar Bedini oscillator.



The little stubs at the bottom are about 13 volts input....BACK EMF is occurring DURING the input portion of those little stubs. Again - the BACK EMF is occurring during those little stubs at the bottom WHILE 13 volts is being applied to the coil. Lenz Law is taking place DURING the application of 13 volts - that is where the Back EMF is.

See the tall spikes? That is hundreds of volts potential and it is those spikes that you want and those spikes have NOTHING to do with Back EMF and is NOT Forward EMF.

The most efficient coil arrangement to get the transfer of this if using a secondary is a 1:1 turn ratio. It is not a turns ratio setup for stepping up voltage, it is a time rate of change setup.

Anyone needing further clarification on what Back EMF is, please read this:

Definitions of Back EMF
What is the common theme here? A counter current that opposes the applied field. The applied field, the normal flow of current, the applied voltage - these are all things that Back EMF are opposing....and it is all of these things that are NOT the spike. The spike is NOT the applied field, it is NOT the normal flow of current, it is NOT the applied Voltage and it is most definitely NOT the counter current that opposes these things that are also not what the spike are.

What law describes this action?
Lenz's Law

In 1834, Russian physicist Heinrich Lenz discovered the directional relationships between induced magnetic fields, voltage, and current when a conductor is passed within the lines of force of a magnetic field. Lenz's law states:


"An induced electromotive force generates a current that induces a counter magnetic field that opposes the magnetic field generating the current."


The FACT that the spike is not back emf has been firmly established in all basic electromagnetics for many, many, many years. It is also not a forward EMF.


Current can be maintained in a coil after power is disconnected but any of the above is not it.
__________________
Sincerely,
Aaron Murakami

Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 03-01-2009, 08:24 PM
Aaron's Avatar
Aaron Aaron is offline
Co-Founder & Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Washington State
Posts: 10,563
not back emf

Quote:
Originally Posted by darkwizard View Post
Flyback diode - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Induction at the Opening of a Contact

According to Lenz's law, if the current through an inductance changes, this inductance induces a voltage so the current will go on flowing as long there is energy in the magnetic field. If the current can only flow through the air, the voltage is therefore so high that the air conducts. That is why in mechanically-switched circuits, the near-instantaneous dissipation which occurs without a flyback diode is often observed as an arc across the opening mechanical contacts. Energy is dissipated in this arc primarily as intense heat which causes undesireable premature erosion of the contacts. Some energy is also lost from the system as a whole and from the arc as a broad spectrum of electromagnetic radiation, in the form of radiowaves and light. These radiowaves can cause undesirable clicks and pops on nearby radio receivers.
Yes and none of that is what Back EMF is. AND Back EMF is always LOWER than what is applied. Lower, therefore, it is NOT the spike, which can be many times higher. Back EMF is also defined as being the opposing current DURING the application of power and NOT when disconnecting the power.
__________________
Sincerely,
Aaron Murakami

Reply With Quote
  #76  
Old 03-01-2009, 08:28 PM
darkwizard's Avatar
darkwizard darkwizard is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Argentina
Posts: 338
Send a message via MSN to darkwizard
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

The counter-electromotive force (abbreviated counter emf, or CEMF ) [1] is the voltage, or electromotive force, that pushes against the current which induces it. CEMF is caused by a changing electromagnetic field. It is represented by Lenz's Law of electromagnetism. Back electromotive force is a voltage that occurs in electric motors where there is relative motion between the armature of the motor and the external magnetic field. One practical application is to use this phenomenon to indirectly measure motor speed and position [2]. Counter emf is a voltage developed in an inductor network by a pulsating current or an alternating current [1]. The voltage's polarity is at every moment the reverse of the input voltage [1][3]


Seems that if one puts the tester points on the coil it will measure counter.

It is not back emf, but negative energy, seems the electronics read back emf, i don't know why.
__________________
 

Last edited by darkwizard; 03-01-2009 at 08:30 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #77  
Old 03-01-2009, 08:33 PM
Aaron's Avatar
Aaron Aaron is offline
Co-Founder & Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Washington State
Posts: 10,563
back emf is NOT the spike

Dark Wizard, please understand this:

Back EMF is always LOWER than what is applied.

If Back EMF can be higher, which is what is collected when collecting the spike, that means that it would be impossible for any motor with back emf to even run, ever and would mean that the opposition coming back is MORE than what went in...that would stop any back emf motor in its tracks.

What you are quoting is very well known and is still NOT what is being captured. The spike is simply NOT back emf. Yes, there can be an opposition when the power is disconnected since it tries to maintain itself, but again, that has nothing to do with the spike.
__________________
Sincerely,
Aaron Murakami

Reply With Quote
  #78  
Old 03-01-2009, 08:38 PM
darkwizard's Avatar
darkwizard darkwizard is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Argentina
Posts: 338
Send a message via MSN to darkwizard
I know what the spike is, it is the heaviside flow returning to the coil, but the heaviside flow seems to be depending on the current, just symmetric?
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #79  
Old 03-01-2009, 09:13 PM
Aaron's Avatar
Aaron Aaron is offline
Co-Founder & Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Washington State
Posts: 10,563
what the spike is

Quote:
Originally Posted by darkwizard View Post
Any person with a background of electronics knows what is this spike but they ignore it, they simply call this spike BACK EMF

I know what the spike is, it is the heaviside flow returning to the coil, but the heaviside flow seems to be depending on the current, just symmetric?
Anyone with a background in electronics that calls the spike the Back EMF doesn't understand the distinction and if this is what is conventionally being taught, then it is flat out wrong and is a shame.

The gas that went into the coil is coming back as a spike because it is time compressed. The aether provides a free inwards push on anything displacing it. So when a coil is charged, this free inwards push is what is snapping the potential back to the coil on disconnect so fast virtually with no opposition. And, while it snapped back, it creates a true vacuum meaning it is free of positive potential that can cause resistance and this sucks in more energy from the vacuum with it adding to the potential....so there is a gain in potential by this mechanism. The inward snap of the potential causes a negative pressure zone...it sucks in extra potential from the vacuum. This is what the spike is and why it brings back more with it.

None of this is Back EMF and it isn't Forward EMF either.

The Heaviside flow is not dependent on current, actually it is the other way around in a closed circuit.

Also, the Heaviside flow can move over wires in impulses in open loop mode so there is no current.
__________________
Sincerely,
Aaron Murakami

Reply With Quote
  #80  
Old 03-01-2009, 09:54 PM
darkwizard's Avatar
darkwizard darkwizard is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Argentina
Posts: 338
Send a message via MSN to darkwizard
I can't figure how to obtain extra energy , perhaps is just only theory.

The only way i see, is using the magnetic field B at the Bedini Sg, producing mechanical energy and convert part of this mechanical energy into electrical energy.

So we got radiant energy plus electric energy.

__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #81  
Old 03-02-2009, 02:47 AM
sucahyo's Avatar
sucahyo sucahyo is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,073
@jetijs, the scope shot help me learn the importance of the core, thanks .

@Aaron, thanks for much info.

Do anyone try this yet, posted by Aromaz on Aromaz thread:
How It Works
"What i came up with was a coil pack that when pulsing the coil it pushed the magnetic feild off the coil pack then as the wave from the pulse stoped we could collect the back energy from that same wire and use it to power a battery.
...
What i found was that a wave to pulse into the coil is not a normal wave. The wave we use helps us getmore power back out of out coil setup. the power going into the coil pack is between 1000 - 2000 Hz. Most people when they build my style of unit use a regular wave form and try to remove the power and that is the problem."

Do coil with opposing permanent magnet core have more spike? What kind of pulse is that?
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #82  
Old 03-02-2009, 07:30 AM
Gauss Gauss is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 233
@Aaron, what is your take on the spike of the diode inductor side of the Stan Meyer WFC?

Will the spike "bounce" right back into the water bath from the diode? Or does it go somewhere else?
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #83  
Old 03-02-2009, 07:34 AM
nilrehob's Avatar
nilrehob nilrehob is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Sweden
Posts: 683
Good morning, knights of the round table!

Whenever I hear someone, be it a politician, a priest, a scientist, a teacher or my wife, higher the voice rather than sharpening the arguments I get suspicious.

If there are no argument to satisfy skeptic enthusiasts there will never be any argument to convince the fanatical skeptics.

So far this spike thing is just another way of increasing voltage and lower the current. Here is another way of getting high voltage: Voltage multiplier - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia which is quite similar.

But this is "Energetic forum" and not "Voltage forum". The current is "almost" zero in the spike so the energy in the spike is not higher than the energy in the coil before shutoff.

Since the spikes are quite central in many circuits under the "free energy"-flag I find it very important to get the theory right here before I move on, so please sharpen the arguments.

What is needed is a simple, easy to replicate, two-stage experiment that would go something like this:
Stage 1: Do this circuit like this and measure this like that and You will get a result which confirms to this ancient formula for calculating energy.
Stage 2: Change the circuit just a bit in this way and You will get new cool results that no known formula can predict.

If there is no experiment like this then this is all about a search for the holy grail and and in this thread we are arguing about which is our favorite color!
__________________
Hob Nilre
http://www.youtube.com/nilrehob
Reply With Quote
  #84  
Old 03-02-2009, 08:12 AM
Aaron's Avatar
Aaron Aaron is offline
Co-Founder & Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Washington State
Posts: 10,563
spike - energy - potential distinctions

Quote:
Originally Posted by nilrehob View Post
So far this spike thing is just another way of increasing voltage and lower the current.

The current is "almost" zero in the spike so the energy in the spike is not higher than the energy in the coil before shutoff.
That's right, getting the voltage potential without the current or bare minimum current...but it is possible to pick off the spike without the current. It isn't simple step up transformation, it is a time rate of change and that is why usually 1:1 turn ratio is used because that is the most efficient for this purpose as far as I know.

Also, in the spike, energy is almost non-existent, that is why it is called potential or potential energy. There is no such thing as energy, it is an adjective to describe the movement of a potential to another potential...high to low or low to high, meaning there is work being done...positive or negative work, entropy or negentropy.

When the voltage potential comes back, it draws more potential to it from the vacuum, adding to the sum of potential, which then gets transferred to a receiver...battery, capacitor, whatever. Once this potential is gathered, it has to go through "forward conversion" then it can move to a lower potential to light a bulb or whatever and as the work is being performed, that work is what energy is. What was being stored? Time. That is why time (width) doesn't show up on the spike - TIME is being conserved within that voltage potential...you'll see some width if you zoom way in at the bottom but for all pracitcal purposes, it is a spike without current.

The higher the voltage, the higher the pressure and therefore, the more dense the aetheric gas is. The denser the gas, the slower the time because it is all locked up in the density that gives a lot of resistance to mass' ability to move.

Let the time out by making it do work...you get work because you let the time out of the pressure..pressure goes down...the less resistance there is to the movement of mass and therefore, time ticks quicker.

The spike is literally a TIME CHARGE. That isn't an analogy or metahpor...it is TIME POTENTIAL that is being used to charge caps or batteries...that is what the spike is.

Anyway, the title of this thread is: "Back EMF vs. Collapsing Magnetic Field Spike"

It has been firmly established by pointing out multiple references of what Back EMF is defined as and none of them are the spike.

I've only been involved with this field for 9 years, which is not as long as many members here but when I started, I also thought that Back EMF was what I was capturing to charge batteries.

Bedini told me to build my coils big so the first trifilar's I built, which I still use are built different from everyone elses. I wanted to get around back emf so bad this is what I did as it was my interpretation of the dual battery charger schematic.

I wound the power and trigger winding together around the coil first. THEN, I wound the recovery winding around those, the same amount of turns, but in the OPPOSITE direction. My thought was that if the Back EMF is Lenz's law, which it is and the counter current is in the opposite direction, then my reverse turned recovery winding should siphon off any back emf through the bridge to the cap so that the forward applied field met less resistance. Electromagnetic Jujitsu.

So to make a long story short, I learned the back emf is not what is used to charge the batteries - and again, back emf is not the spike.
__________________
Sincerely,
Aaron Murakami


Last edited by Aaron; 03-02-2009 at 08:16 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #85  
Old 03-02-2009, 08:42 AM
nilrehob's Avatar
nilrehob nilrehob is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Sweden
Posts: 683
@Aaron,

If I understand You correctly this is the experiment I asked for:

Step 1: Replace batt being charged with cap

Measure energy from driving batt, compare with energy showing up in cap; energy in cap is smaller than energy drawn from bat.

Step 2: Coil is wound as 2+1

Do the same measurement; energy in cap is bigger than energy drawn from bat.

How many turns and what core in the trifilar coil?
Any other requirements?
__________________
Hob Nilre
http://www.youtube.com/nilrehob
Reply With Quote
  #86  
Old 03-02-2009, 11:04 AM
nilrehob's Avatar
nilrehob nilrehob is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Sweden
Posts: 683
Most of what has been written here are all just theories, and theories means nothing unless You can back it up with experiments that cannot be explained by already known and by experiments proven theories.

I therefore ask, once again, for a two-step experiment that will establish this new theory. Even a one-step experiment is fine.

If there is no experiment to back it up with, just say so, its quite OK, I'll personally continue to experiment anyway (simply because I think its fun).
If no one knows of a suitable experiment, please stop acting as if this new theory is a fact.
If there *is* an experiment known by users in this forum but who won't reveal it, then who is suppressing technologies now?

And yes, I *will* make the trifilar coil circuit, just for fun.
And probably a bunch of other circuits as well...
__________________
Hob Nilre
http://www.youtube.com/nilrehob

Last edited by nilrehob; 03-02-2009 at 11:35 AM. Reason: change of word and added another question
Reply With Quote
  #87  
Old 03-02-2009, 11:51 AM
lighty's Avatar
lighty lighty is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Croatia
Posts: 388
@Aaron

Although I do agree with most of what you've said I may have to differ on the point of inductive discharge spikes being pure potential without current. Behavior of that spike largely depends on the impedance of the load- smaller the impedance the more current you get.

The problem of the theory is that when the impedance of load is very high the current is so low that it's very hard to measure it. I mean I used top of the range equipment and still find it difficult because of the extremely small currents impulses with very short duration time. Also, there are problems related to grounding of the equipment, of using appropriate probes (high Z introduces signal noise problems as well as reducing the time response required to capture those small currents).

However, there is one thing there is indicative- if you discharge coil into a high resistance carbon or metalfilm resistor and put a high Z choke in series with load (and we're talking about great number of turns in the order of 20'000) like I did you will notice that a magnetic field will be produced which is indicative of some small current passing from discharged coil into the load. So, no pure potential is possible with this setup if you don't use infinitely high Z load (which is physically impossible).

I think that it's basically the same problem as with using Avramenko plug. I mean, most people believes that capacitor is charged by pure potential which is basically untrue. The problem presented with that system is also that current is so very small that one has a major problem measuring it. Again, if one puts high Z choke between HF generator and Avramenko plug magnetic field will be produced since there is definately some small current passing. Also, contrary to most people thinks- Avramenko plug is not so hard to simulate in advanced EM simulators and the behaviour of the simulated models is pretty much consistent with the mesured performance- the thing is that simulation also predicts small current passing from source to Avramenko. Small current is the main reason for the requirements like using HF and HV to practically charge capacitor with Avramenko plug.


My whole point is that some things are extremely hard to measure even if you know exactly what to look for, if you have required knowledge and if you have top of the range equipment at your disposal. I don't mean to say that Bedini (or Bearden for that matter) is wrong but I think that a lot of things are being too easily taken on their word alone. The point of scientific discussion is to question their assertations. You may remember that although I have a great respect for Peter Lindemann I was engaging him in discussion in order to proof-test his theories as well as mine. There is simply no other way in science. At this point, I would be hard pressed to decide inductive discharge impulses are indeed time charge. Not enough exact measurements have been done and aside from higher math theories no real engineering and simulation methods have been devised to completely prove or disprove the theory. I mean, people said that Avramenko plug cannot be simulated and my friend did it. People also said that Tesla's pancake coils have some magical properties- well they don't have it. Simulation exactly predicted measured behaviour which means it's all well within the conventional EM theory. The only "mystical parts" were predicted with the new metamaterials theory. So, everything is still well within the bounds of mainstream science- I mean metamaterials are a quite new branch of science but it is mainstream science nevertheless.

That being said, that doesn't mean there aren't some great uses for all those intersesting effects and devices. That's what it's all about, isn't it?
Reply With Quote
  #88  
Old 03-02-2009, 02:34 PM
boguslaw's Avatar
boguslaw boguslaw is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,403
There is no mystery, just a omitted fact.We are living immersed in weak(?) Earth magnetic field, which is everywhere.

Experiments should explain what happen with that field when coil is charged by own magnetic field. Does it repel or attract Earth field ? Because some interference cannot be avoided, look for example in any good old book about vacuum tubes, or follow overunity.com threads about TPU.

I think that most interesting experiment will be simple : two exact transformers connected in reverse powered by generator. If "inside" flyback spike there is another hidden element caused by influence with Earth magnetic field then after some little time energy accumulated in such circuit will tend to form high frequency current and be self-sustaining with proper condition of circuit ( constant lag of currents between transformers).

TPU was made by such simple principle I think.


In other words if flyback spike is free, or if it contain weak element from Earth magnetic field (hidden or hard to measure) - then USING that energy to induce another spike and so on WILL SOON create tremendous power gain.
__________________
 

Last edited by boguslaw; 03-02-2009 at 05:49 PM. Reason: spell
Reply With Quote
  #89  
Old 03-02-2009, 03:05 PM
jibbguy jibbguy is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 987
The power of transient spikes

As far as asking for proof of the existence of the "power of spikes"' this is widely known in electronics (and has been for a century): Especially with high current electrical applications such as DC "SCR" Drives for heavy manufacturing production lines . These are the motor controls/drives which power large conveyors or other types of industrial lines found in steel, paper, aluminum mills or other places such as DC cantenary-powered light rail / trains (although SCR Drives are now rather obsolete and variable F drives are replacing them).

When these DC drives cut in, despite the cascaded relays, giant caps, and other dampening techniques, they can sometimes cause major problems and disruptions for as far as half a mile / 1 km away... On devices with completely separate power sources (...which is the key here to it being "unique"). When i was working in the "Test and Measurement" instrumentation field; one of our biggest applications was power monitoring / troubleshooting for these extremely powerful transient spikes in DC systems which cause great havoc to unshielded electronic equipment (sometimes permanently damaging them)... Which act a lot like the classic definition of an "EMP pulse".

Using digital recording chart oscillographic recorders/data acquisition systems, the User could trigger on the spike and use "pre-trigger" to see the events leading up to the spikes, as well as the post-event results (sometimes with as many as 100 data channels), and thus find the component that was the cause of them. Lol, we sometimes had to power the recorders and their signal conditioners from batteries/inverters and put them in a "Faraday Cage" heavily shielded box to keep them running reliably in this environment... Despite using a widely separate Earth ground.

This spike phenomena is empirical fact.... Not theory

What is not "fact" is the mainstream's explanation for them... Which is completely lame and does not fit the reality (from what i have read in the industry literature they claim the disruptions come from the ground/power supply)... Until they finally embrace Longitudinal Wave Theory (imo, anyway).

I have verified this personally by monitoring the power of the distant devices (usually computers) that were effected: No transients were seen on their incoming power with separate circuits/grounds. It is coming through the "air", there is no doubt of that.

So there is tremendous power in transient spikes, and harnessing it will be one key to reaching "free energy"... As many devices using pulses have shown.
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #90  
Old 03-02-2009, 04:59 PM
lighty's Avatar
lighty lighty is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Croatia
Posts: 388
I never said that inductive discharge spikes don't have power to create havoc with electronic equipment- it all comes down to the voltage levels (responsible for destroying components by causing dielectric breakthrough, also for efficient transfer of high levels of energy through capacitive coupling), total amount of discharged energy (depending on the size of the magnetic core, density of magnetic flux, hysteresis of magnetic systems etc.), as well as on the amount of potential energy converted into current (depending on the impedance of load) as well as on the length of the impulse (depending on a few of the before mentioned factors), finally there is also accentuated damped wave oscillation present at higher Z loads that are basically acting as RF transmitters (how efficient they can transmit depends on the particular configuration).

Also, with appropriate equipment it is not so hard capturing these events. With fast enough DSO (as high analogue bandwidth as possible and sampling rate) one can easily see that spike is far from ideal- it has rising slope and falling slope, as well as the damped wave oscillations when falling slope hits the original starting voltage value. Then, when introducing different loads one can see how it all affects the width of the impulse, how much voltage is getting converted into current etc. Most of the people use low bandwidth skopes and that's why they see simple "spikes". Those are not spikes at all, they're much more complex waveforms.

I don't doubt the existence of longitudinal waves- I had opportunity to see Meyl's demonstrations and to discuss it with him personaly. I also had opportunity to listen to the lectures of the Strebkov (Avramenko was only one of the three engineers involved on the single wire transmission for the Russian ministry, there were also Strebkov and Zaev) and to hear and see figures proving that Tesla's wireless transmission of energy was indeed his single wire system in which ground replaced that single wire- so it's basically the same system. Tesla said so himself at the trial against Marconi. So, longitudinal waves are better known in mainstream science than most people are aware of. Also, a great deal of research was done by Russians and Germans and for the most part they aren't available in English language or freely on the internet. One has to look through the relevant literature. So, I still don't see a need to introduce "time charge".
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



Please consider supporting Energetic Forum with a voluntary monthly subscription.

For One-Time Donations, use admin@ this domain > energeticforum.com

Choose your voluntary subscription

All times are GMT. The time now is 01:36 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v1.4.0 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Shoutbox provided by vBShout v6.2.8 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
2007-2015 Copyright - Energetic Forum - All Rights Reserved

Bedini RPX Sideband Generator

Tesla Chargers