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  #31  
Old 02-27-2009, 06:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boguslaw View Post
...so magnetic field of coil + magnetic field of iron core COLLAPSE..
I'm not sure that I follow. Do You mean that the forward EMF generated by the collapse of the field is boosted by the magnet going away?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetijs View Post
If you want inductive spikes without any magnets involved, look at Bedini self oscillator circuits or Peters rotary attraction motor.
Now here is a new problem: where do I find a simple as possible but still working schema of a circuit like this? This forum is quite big.
I think a thread dedicated to working schema's with comments (but no discussion at all) would be great. If an error is found or info is to be added to a schema the post is edited rather than a new post is added.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth View Post
nilrehob - I am almost 100% confident that the passing magnets actually take energy away energy from electrical output and does not add to it.
This is most surprising to me. I must find a way to check this.
Is this contradicting what boguslaw wrote?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth View Post
The transient spike preceeds the flyback.
How do I generate and detect this? Do You have a osc-scope-shot?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
Right, if you zoom into the spike close enough, you will see it is a triangle with some width getting wider towards the bottom. However, there are spikes like this but also true impulses without the current...this is firmly established.
How do I generate and detect this? Or, where can I read about this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
There is a way to have current in the coil AFTER
you remove the input power.
How do I generate and detect this? Or, where can I read about this?

Again, a thread with working schema's accompanied by comments on how to make it work would be must useful, like a patent-repository (but without its restrictions of course), and no discussions. Not only big apparatus but also small parts to show how a specific concept works (like how all kinds of EMF and all kinds of spikes works).
Unfortunately it seems like the forum-software is compressing attached pictures, but that can maybe be changed?
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  #32  
Old 02-27-2009, 07:14 AM
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  #33  
Old 02-27-2009, 08:48 AM
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Sephiroth, I just took a shot running my converted fan with *very* small coils charging a capacitor.
The scope is over the coil (collector - batteryplus) and I have no "flyback", only the spike.
Volt/square was 20V and time/square was 0.1 ms, as the cap collects energy the spike rise and gets thinner.

I'm unable to test it right now, but I can't remember having anything else than the spike on my big air-core coil either.

Maybe I need to have an iron core to get Your result, just as (I guess) boguslaw is saying?
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File Type: jpg spike.jpg (6.4 KB, 70 views)
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Last edited by nilrehob; 02-27-2009 at 09:09 AM.
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  #34  
Old 02-27-2009, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nilrehob View Post
I'm not sure that I follow. Do You mean that the forward EMF generated by the collapse of the field is boosted by the magnet going away?
Yes, but I thought rather about collapsing magnetic field in iron core.And Bedini uses bifilar coils when one winding is pushing magnet away (using energy from power source). The second is in meantime collapsing magnetic field with added field from magnet. At least that's how I understand the energy added to SSG.
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Last edited by boguslaw; 02-27-2009 at 10:01 AM. Reason: spell
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  #35  
Old 02-27-2009, 10:41 AM
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I think you should see this : YouTube - Radiant Energy From Generator Coil
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  #36  
Old 02-27-2009, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boguslaw View Post
I think you should see this : YouTube - Radiant Energy From Generator Coil
Thanks
About coils: Producing wound components
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  #37  
Old 02-27-2009, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nilrehob View Post
Would a SSG with no wheel, magnets or transistor work with a relay (instead of the transistor) switching in low freq? My guess is it won't, not even if You trim the width of the puls to match the size of the coil.
Just to explain myself: by "work" above, I mean charge a battery more than it drains the driving battery.
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  #38  
Old 02-27-2009, 01:25 PM
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that isn't the spike... that is the flyback and appears to be charging a cap at around 70 volts.

the photo is a bit blurry, but it looks like I can just make out the leading edge spike immeadiatly before the flyback.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nilrehob View Post
Sephiroth, I just took a shot running my converted fan with *very* small coils charging a capacitor.
The scope is over the coil (collector - batteryplus) and I have no "flyback", only the spike.
Volt/square was 20V and time/square was 0.1 ms, as the cap collects energy the spike rise and gets thinner.

I'm unable to test it right now, but I can't remember having anything else than the spike on my big air-core coil either.

Maybe I need to have an iron core to get Your result, just as (I guess) boguslaw is saying?
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  #39  
Old 02-27-2009, 01:39 PM
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Is there any difference between the mystic spike and the flyback spike? aren't they coming from the vacuum?
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Last edited by darkwizard; 02-27-2009 at 01:50 PM.
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  #40  
Old 02-27-2009, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth View Post
that isn't the spike... that is the flyback and appears to be charging a cap at around 70 volts.
OK, I'll make a video...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth View Post
the photo is a bit blurry, but it looks like I can just make out the leading edge spike immeadiatly before the flyback.
...meanwhile You look at a manipulated photo
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File Type: jpg spike-hand.jpg (8.6 KB, 55 views)
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  #41  
Old 02-27-2009, 02:54 PM
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Is there any difference between the mystic spike and the flyback spike? aren't they coming from the vacuum?
I'm desperately trying to demystify this, please join in
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  #42  
Old 02-27-2009, 03:16 PM
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What causes the HV spike whatever it means , flyback or radiant or mystic spike is the heaviside flow component or what is called the A field, this A field creates at light speed when the switch is closed, his flow is parallel to electric current, and this A field returns like radiant energy or flyback voltage, electric energy with high voltage and very poor current, when the switch is open.

Therefore radiant, back emf, or flyback are only names for the same thing, like Jehovah or Yahweh or Elohim or Lucifer are names for the same god.

Perhaps the best name is aetheric voltage.
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  #43  
Old 02-27-2009, 03:41 PM
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kinetic energy of moving electrons in wire.

Sorry to throw in maybe a bit of off topic consideration but....

Has anyone calculated the kinetic energy of moving electrons in the bedini coil. Then when the circuit is opened the voltage spike (which I believe is similar to Force in a mechanical system) might be described by the fact that the electrons were moving and had so much kinetic energy behind them. Here the length of wire comes into play because it is like a tube of moving water. In a tube of moving water if you stop the movement very fast you get enormous pressure and forces.

So really is it just this. Can we consider the electrons to be like water moving in a tube? And calculate the energy and related voltages based on Kinetic energies? For electrons in a circuit I believe the velocity is known as Drift Velocity, the mass of electrons would be all those electrons along the wire that are in movement.

Not that I looked at the math but also something to consider ... what about a long wire, can formulas known for calculating inductance of a coil be used to describe electron flow in a straight long wire path but in this case put the radius term to infinity? This might simplify some expressions to Zero.... Just something to look at and consider.

One other thing to consider about a mechanical system ... currently in the natural gas supply system (say in North America) it is impossible to stop the flow of natural gas in the main supply lines. If there is a problem in one line which needs repair the gas flow must always be diverted. It is because the forces needed to stop the gas would be so great.
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  #44  
Old 02-27-2009, 03:45 PM
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Video is live.
YouTube - Spikes part 1
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  #45  
Old 02-27-2009, 04:10 PM
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BinzerBob your consideration is right, but, do you know where the electrons are moving? They are moving in the vacuum, inertia is a property of space.

The vacuum is the medium of propagation, in a copper wire, at the atoms there is such empty space where the electrons propagate, jumping between atom and atom, the kinetic energy is related to moment of inertia, and this moment of is inertia is a property of angular motion of a particle and vacuum.
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  #46  
Old 02-27-2009, 04:33 PM
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The best explication of these phenomenon are explained very well by the Evans-Cartan-Einstein theory of zero point energy field

http://aias.us/documents/mwe/origina...firstdraft.pdf

This paper explains all
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  #47  
Old 02-27-2009, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkwizard View Post
The best explication of these phenomenon are explained very well by the Evans-Cartan-Einstein theory of zero point energy field

http://aias.us/documents/mwe/origina...firstdraft.pdf

This paper explains all
I'm really trying to demystify this and give it a simple explanation, not make it harder than it already is!!!
I'm sorry, I just can't read that stuff. Doh!

Please tell me that a simplification of the document would be that the energy E in the spike generated by a coil with inductance L and current I before shutoff is (L*I^2)/2 minus losses?
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Last edited by nilrehob; 02-27-2009 at 05:27 PM. Reason: changed impedance to inductance
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  #48  
Old 02-27-2009, 05:21 PM
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No, that is the classical formula, the spike energy can be bigger than the input energy, and it depends on inductance and not impedance/resistance.
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  #49  
Old 02-27-2009, 05:23 PM
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Maybe that spike has something to do with a E field generated from iron atoms ? nuclear magnetic resonance ? Is that a cause of magnetic delay in iron ?
Just a blind guess
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  #50  
Old 02-27-2009, 05:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkwizard View Post
No, that is the classical formula, the spike energy can be bigger than the input energy, and it depends on inductance and not impedance/resistance.
Oops, I meant inductance, not impedance. I changed it in the post. Sorry.
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  #51  
Old 02-27-2009, 05:31 PM
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No, that is the classical formula, the spike energy can be bigger than the input energy, and it depends on inductance and not impedance/resistance.
Can You give an example of an circumstance when E.out > E.in?
Maybe how to produce it and how to measure it?

When does E=(LI^2)/2 not work?
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  #52  
Old 02-27-2009, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boguslaw View Post
Maybe that spike has something to do with a E field generated from iron atoms ? nuclear magnetic resonance ? Is that a cause of magnetic delay in iron ?
Just a blind guess
While a non-air core gives You more inductance than if You had an air-core, You will also get other characteristics of the coil as well.
Isn't the "delay" called "hysteresis"?
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  #53  
Old 02-27-2009, 05:57 PM
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Try yourself
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  #54  
Old 02-27-2009, 06:02 PM
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Try yourself
I am!

But since there are so many that has done so much before me I was hoping for some sharing of knowledge. Thats all.
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  #55  
Old 02-27-2009, 06:10 PM
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nilrehob,
here are some Bedini solid state oscillator circuits that you can try:


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  #56  
Old 02-27-2009, 06:15 PM
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nilrehob,
here are some Bedini solid state oscillator circuits that you can try:
Thank You Jetijs, and yes I will!
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  #57  
Old 02-27-2009, 06:23 PM
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You are welcome
If you have any questions about those circuits, have a look at this thread:
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...idstate+Bedini
I am sure that most of the questions will be answered by going through that thread
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  #58  
Old 02-27-2009, 07:15 PM
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nilrehob - please look at the labeled image I posted earlier. All I can do is repeat myself by saying that what you are showing is the flyback and NOT the transient spike.
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  #59  
Old 02-28-2009, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth View Post
nilrehob - please look at the labeled image I posted earlier. All I can do is repeat myself by saying that what you are showing is the flyback and NOT the transient spike.
Bear with me if I I'm not clear in my posts.
I still think the spike and the flyback is the same:
maybe the part You call the spike is generated by the wire in the coil and the part You call the flyback is generated by the core in the coil?

If You could just make me another shot and I will try to stop posting in this thread for a few days, maybe a week :
Given that You're using a SSG of some sort, can You make youre scope 20V/cm * 0.1ms/cm and measure over the coil while charging a capacitor and just after You have shortened the capacitor?
I would really appreciate it.

What core/coil and transistor do You use?
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Last edited by nilrehob; 02-28-2009 at 08:52 AM.
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  #60  
Old 02-28-2009, 10:21 AM
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Hi.
Here are some scope shots from my rotary attraction motor recovery:





But remember, those scope shots show the CURRENT and NOT the voltage. The measurements were taken across a low resistance resistor. There is the big spike and then we start to get some real current back. You can see the on the second picture, we get much more usable current out, that is because the first scope shot was taken from a setup with ordinary, thick iron plates, they did not demagnetize completely and there were losses by eddycurrents. Here is the setup:



Other scope shot shows improved results and I guess that this is because the shot was taken from the second motor setup which had a core made out of good quality silicon steel laminations. This is the second setup:



The operation of these motors is simple, we have bifilar coils on each pole. We let current to flow through one winding to build up magnetic field an attract the iron rotor poles. When the rotor poles are aligned, we cut off the current flow and capture the inductive spike in a capacitor via a high speed diode using the second strand of the bifilar coil.
Hope this helps.
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