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#1
02-05-2009, 12:51 PM
 CitizenDC Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 81
Your Thoughts | Input x = Output 2x

Hi Guys,

I'd like to bounce an idea I've just read past you.

You have a coil. You put power into the coil of value X. The output power is also X. You shut off the power into the coil resulting in the coil field collapsing and X being returned back to the input.

Does this justify to you that x in = 2x out in terms of power input / output of the coil?

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#2
02-05-2009, 01:18 PM
 Inquorate Gold Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Sydney, Aus Posts: 2,097
2x

In a perfect system, yes, IF Lenz's law was perfectly negated. Otherwise it takes more energy to charge a coil to max value than the coil can hold. And more energy is lost to resistance to collapse of coil field than is delivered. Hence return is less than 2x, in fact less than 1x.

BUT, nullify the magnetic field (i Lenz's law) of the coil, and resistance or drag caused by charging or discharging it would also be nil.

Therefore, driving a load (such as an efficient Homopolar generator that itself defies Lenz's law by fixing the magnets to the rotating disk) while charging up a tesla Bifilar pancake coil, and then with precise timing allowing the tesla coil to discharge at the moment it is 'full' back thru same generator and into source battery (at higher voltage)......

Then, yeah, that could be overunity.

Esp if Bifilar tesla coil (having no net external magnetic field) also transmits energy to separate single wound pancake coil (at no? cost) as per my recent post / link on Aromaz thread.

!?!?!?

Wow, I'm glad I answered that question. I had no idea where I'd end up when I started.

Thankyou!
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#3
02-05-2009, 03:10 PM
 boguslaw Gold Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 2,461
Assume that I have a transformer which defies Lenz's law some way. What next ? I imagine that beside Lenz's law there are many other losses : eddy currents, resistance,self-induction, EM waves etc.

How can I use positive feedback and regulate it to get more from transformer output then put input ? Let's say 2x is enough if we could join such transformers in chain.
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#4
02-05-2009, 03:11 PM
 BinzerBob Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 63
I have been scratching my head about collapsing magnetic fields for a bit of time now, and I have only come to the conclusion that we can approach unity as the voltage increases to infinity. At high voltages current loses are reduced and might become zero.

I don't know what happens at infinite voltage. It is very likely that many laws that exits when voltage is lower (less than say 10,000) don't hold for very high voltages.

So maybe all the anomalies that are observed with electricity happen at these extreem high voltages. and at the same time there is no concrete understanding of these occurrences. Maybe there is knowledge out there but beyond my capability of what I read or can understand.

I don't believe all the current / voltage laws hold at high voltages, just that same way that many people believe that F=MA doesn't hold at high velocities.
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#5
02-05-2009, 03:20 PM
 boguslaw Gold Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 2,461
Friends,

It's interesting how much things from our life slip unnoticed.You know the answer at least for one quite efficient Lenz's law violation I bet from children's times.

You know that two magnets repel each other if are put close with the same poles opposing each other.You know that putting soft iron "shield" between them allow to stick them together at least if iron is thick enough to not saturate quickly.

This is a solution. Len'z law violation. If you imagine primary and secondary coils of transformer you know that the current induced in secondary create such magnetic field on primary which opposes primary current by creating opposing magnetic poles against magnetic field of primary.

Am I right ? Do you see solution now ? How easy it is! Of course it's not ideal solution but it works...
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Last edited by boguslaw; 02-05-2009 at 03:22 PM. Reason: spell correction
#6
02-05-2009, 09:27 PM
 cody Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 407
I see what you are saying, but if you listen to bedini and others, between your input x(a) and your x(b) out(mechanical) and your collapsing field x(c), there will be a trade off between mechanical out and collapsing field out depending on how you set your circuit up. If thinking of it on a graph it would be considered an inverse relationship. In other words as x(b) goes up, the other x(c) goes down. Or as the x(c) goes up, x(b) goes down. So in reality its more like: 1x(a) in vs. 1/2x(b) + 1x(c) or if set up differently it would be like: 1x(a) in vs. 1x(b)+ 1/2x(c)

Do you see how the trade off works. You can either set it up for more mechanical output x(b) or set it up for more electrical output x(c)

Thats what the masters are saying at least. If you have set up a system that works like you describe [1x(b)+1x(c)]than i think a lot of people will be interested.
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#7
02-05-2009, 10:09 PM
 boguslaw Gold Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 2,461
Sorry,I don't understand you.
Iron shield between primary and secondary cause phase shift of secondary current and stop Lenz's law effect (to some extend) on primary.
By properly adjusting shield thickness, amperage of primary AC current you can get 90 degrees phase shift and NO BACK EMF at primary.I didn't tested it, so don't know how much losses there is.
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#8
02-05-2009, 11:49 PM
 Ted Ewert Silver Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: SF Bay Area Posts: 597
Quote:
 Originally Posted by boguslaw Sorry,I don't understand you. Iron shield between primary and secondary cause phase shift of secondary current and stop Lenz's law effect (to some extend) on primary. By properly adjusting shield thickness, amperage of primary AC current you can get 90 degrees phase shift and NO BACK EMF at primary.I didn't tested it, so don't know how much losses there is.
I don't think a shield between the primary and secondary is going to improve anything. If the secondary is wound around the primary, as in most transformers, it won't work at all with shielding between the two. If the secondary is wrapped around a separate part of the core, shielding will make no difference since the vast majority of flux is within the core.
Besides eddy currents, stray field and copper losses, you also have hysteresis losses. These are all unrecoverable losses that can be minimized but not eliminated.
If you want to get more out of a system than you put into it, you have to understand and define where that extra energy is coming from. For example, Bedini defines the gain in his coils as coming from the expansion of the Bloch Wall through the use of a correctly timed narrow electrical pulse. Bedini knows just what he is after and designs his circuits accordingly.
Ferromagnetic materials, such as iron, will add some energy to a transformer by virtue of the alignment of magnetic domains. This is one of the reasons that larger transformers tend to be more efficient than smaller ones. There is a lot of potential energy in iron in that respect.

Cheers,

Ted
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#9
02-06-2009, 12:06 AM
 boguslaw Gold Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 2,461
Ok Ted I see your point,but in fact I think you are wrong. Of course there are losses but if that was inefficient then why Tesla would patent it ?
IT WORKS, because shield is between primary and secondary and constructed of pieces such as insulate soft iron wire or laminated plates perpendicular to coils.For example a ring or toroid transformer where core are a bunch of iron wires , then primary then a shield wound like a core but completely shielding primary, then secondary. 90 degree shift of phase.
Hubbard,Hendershot,Steven Mark.A way to convert back EMF into a forward kick.

Just an idea... Really ?
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Last edited by boguslaw; 02-06-2009 at 12:07 AM. Reason: hmm
#10
02-06-2009, 01:49 AM
 Ted Ewert Silver Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: SF Bay Area Posts: 597
Quote:
 Originally Posted by boguslaw Ok Ted I see your point,but in fact I think you are wrong. Of course there are losses but if that was inefficient then why Tesla would patent it ? IT WORKS, because shield is between primary and secondary and constructed of pieces such as insulate soft iron wire or laminated plates perpendicular to coils.For example a ring or toroid transformer where core are a bunch of iron wires , then primary then a shield wound like a core but completely shielding primary, then secondary. 90 degree shift of phase. Hubbard,Hendershot,Steven Mark.A way to convert back EMF into a forward kick. Just an idea... Really ?
The only reason I say it probably won't work is that I have build similar coils with shielding between the windings and they didn't work well at all. However, far be it from me to contradict Tesla, but I think we're talking about two different things.
What you have with the type of shielding that you describe is another core between the two windings. The shielding will act just like a core if it is made of steel, and whatever field is created by the primary will be concentrated both within the shielding and within the main core, dividing the flux and diluting the transfer of energy.
The only "reverse EMF" forces in a transformer are normal current phase shifts due to inductance. Normal transformers are highly efficient and do not suffer from any sort of losses due to "reverse EMF".
If you follow the current path from electrical to magnetic and back to electrical, you'll see more clearly how the process works. Descriptions of reverse fields and counter forces can be confusing and seem like obstacles to be overcome. It is really just a straight forward energy conversion process.
A note on inductance. Current is initially "prevented" from passing through an inductor until the field is fully formed. This is because the current going in to the coil is being converted into the magnetic field. This should not be misconstrued as a loss, because as soon as the field collapses it regenerates virtually all of the current it took to create it in the first place. An inductor stores energy in the form of a magnetic field and delays current with respect to voltage.
This delay of the current while the field is built up is often referred to as an opposite force. This is somewhat of a misnomer and leads to confusion since there is no opposing force, merely a conversion process taking place and slightly delaying the complete flow of current in the circuit.
The term reverse EMF is mostly used to describe actual forces encountered in motors and generators that oppose the rotation of the armature. I'd be happy to explain those if any confusion remains.

Cheers,

Ted
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#11
02-06-2009, 02:43 AM
 sucahyo Platinum Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 3,073
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Ted Ewert A note on inductance. Current is initially "prevented" from passing through an inductor until the field is fully formed. This is because the current going in to the coil is being converted into the magnetic field. This should not be misconstrued as a loss, because as soon as the field collapses it regenerates virtually all of the current it took to create it in the first place. An inductor stores energy in the form of a magnetic field and delays current with respect to voltage.
Do the same thing happen in tesla pancake coil or any other less magnetic coil? What is your prediction if field collapse happen in tesla pancake coil, more or less regeneration?
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Last edited by sucahyo; 02-06-2009 at 02:46 AM.
#12
02-06-2009, 02:54 AM
 Electrotek Silver Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 603
Parametric Pumping

There's also something called parametric pumping in a non linear medium. This involves two frequencies, one twice the other, with the higher frequency leading the lower frequency by 90 degrees. The non linear medium is made by forming an inductive core - in this case, the shield - so that it has a slot going through it, with a step, or shoulder, on the slot. The primary would have the first frequency, tuned by a capacitor, and the secondary would have the lower frequency, tuned by another capacitor. The phase shift is provided by adjusting the amount of iron in the shield.

Patent #4,349,898 details the basic concept, using sound as an example.
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#13
02-06-2009, 07:40 AM
 boguslaw Gold Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 2,461
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Electrotek There's also something called parametric pumping in a non linear medium. This involves two frequencies, one twice the other, with the higher frequency leading the lower frequency by 90 degrees. The non linear medium is made by forming an inductive core - in this case, the shield - so that it has a slot going through it, with a step, or shoulder, on the slot. The primary would have the first frequency, tuned by a capacitor, and the secondary would have the lower frequency, tuned by another capacitor. The phase shift is provided by adjusting the amount of iron in the shield. Patent #4,349,898 details the basic concept, using sound as an example.
uhh, complicated.
Why not use Tesla patent 433702 ? It looks much easier

"In transformers as constructed now and heretofore it will be found that the electromotive force of the secondary very nearly coincides with that of the primary, being, how ever, of opposite sign. At the same time the currents, both primary and secondary, lag behind their respective electro-motive forces; but as this lag is practically or nearly the same in the case of each it follows that the maximum and minimum of the primary and secondary currents will nearly coincide, but differ in sign or direction, provided the secondary be not loaded or if it contain devices having the property of self-induction.
On the other hand, the lag of the primary behind the impressed electro-motive force may be diminished by loading the secondary with a non-
inductive or dead resistance—such as incandescent lamps—whereby the time interval between the maximum or the minimum periods of the primary and secondary currents is increased. This time interval, however, is limited,
and the results obtained by phase difference in the operation of such devices as my alternating-current motors can only be approximately realized by such means of producing or securing this difference, as above
indicated, for it is desirable in such cases that there should exist between the primary and secondary currents, or those which, however produced, pass through the two circuits of the motor, a difference of phase of ninety degrees; or, in other words, the current in one circuit should be maximum when that in the other circuit is minimum.
To more perfectly attain to this condition I obtain or secure an increased retardation of the secondary current in the following manner:Instead of bringing the primary and secondary coils or circuits of a transformer into the closest possible relations, as has hitherto been done, I protect in a measure the secondary from the inductive action or effect of the primary by surrounding either the primary or the secondary with a comparatively-thin magnetic shield or screen. Under these conditions or circumstances, as long as the primary current has a small value, the shield protects the secondary; but as soon as the primary current has reached a certain strength, which is arbitrarily determined, the protecting magnetic shield becomes saturated and the inductive action upon the secondary begins. It results, therefore, that the secondary current begins to flow at a certain fraction of a period later than it would without the interposed shield, and since this retardation may be obtained without necessarily, retarding the primary current also, an additional lag is secured, and the time interval between the maximum or minimum periods of the primary and secondary currents is increased. I have further discovered that such a transformer may, by properly proportioning its several elements and determining in a manner well understood the proper relations between the primary and secondary windings, the thickness of the magnetic shield, and other conditions, be constructed to yield a constant current at all loads. No precise rules can be given for the specific construction and proportions for securing the best results, as this is a matter determined by experiment and calculation in particular cases; but the general plan of construction which I have described will be found under all conditions to conduce to the attainment of this result."
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