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-   -   Big Joule Theif (http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/3609-big-joule-theif.html)

sucahyo 02-05-2009 03:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hoppy (Post 44151)
Battery charging and battery conditioning (energising) are different things and require different waveforms. A high frequency, high radiant content waveform will also charge a battery but not as efficiently as a , low radiant, low frequency pulsed waveform. Also, try connecting the charging battery neg terminal to 0V ground instead of the pos supply rail as is the convention with Bedini energisers. I find battery charging is more efficient with a 0V return and conditioning best with a return to the pos supply rail.

Interesting info. But won't utilizing negative terminal means charging it with induction plus normal electricity?

I think by utilizing 0V return you are doing normal trickle charge which can be verified by charging the battery normally. From Tesla switch document I read that a radiantly charged battery will take very long time of charge on ordinary charger before it will start charging. If your battery charge right away on ordinary charger, it would meant that you are not radiant charging it.

Hoppy 02-05-2009 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ren (Post 44192)
Hi Hoppy.

I just tried the 0v return on my SG. Wheel speed is reduced, but charging seems ALOT faster. Primary input is higher though, which would account for the faster charging. Have you done extended tests with this method to see if the charge holds? JB has talked a bit about not grounding all parts of the circuit, seems to me by grounding the charging battery you lose some of the benefits.
Regards/

ren

Hi ren

Returning the charging battery to the 0V rail kills a lot of the radiant but I find that it does give a faster deeper charge because. However, its important to keep the supply voltage lower than the charge battery voltage otherwise a direct DC charging path exists through the diode in the charging path.

Neither method of charging 'holds' and I have found over the two years I have been building and experimenting, that batteries need to be regularly cycled and periodically re-conditioned with an energiser. The sulfation process starts almost immediately a battery is left to stand irrespective of which method is used to charge it. Unless a LA battery is left permanently on an energiser which is not very practical in a lot of applications, it will deteriorate and loose capacity fairly quickly, especially if not used regularly.

Hoppy

Hoppy 02-05-2009 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sucahyo (Post 44237)
Interesting info. But won't utilizing negative terminal means charging it with induction plus normal electricity?

I think by utilizing 0V return you are doing normal trickle charge which can be verified by charging the battery normally. From Tesla switch document I read that a radiantly charged battery will take very long time of charge on ordinary charger before it will start charging. If your battery charge right away on ordinary charger, it would meant that you are not radiant charging it.

Hi sucahyo

There is nothing normal or conventional about charging with a return to
0V ground. This method does not use DC current form the supply unless the system is set up wrong. Both methods will result in high voltage radiant energy entering the charging battery when the power coil discharges.

Hoppy

sucahyo 02-05-2009 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hoppy (Post 44274)
Hi sucahyo

There is nothing normal or conventional about charging with a return to
0V ground. This method does not use DC current form the supply unless the system is set up wrong. Both methods will result in high voltage radiant energy entering the charging battery when the power coil discharges.

Hoppy

Wouldn't the battery keep charging even if we turned off/remove the transistor?

Hoppy 02-05-2009 09:44 AM

I apologise to slayer007 and others for appearing to move off topic talking about Bedini charging but I see the Joule Thief as much the same device (a reactive energy charger). Most of my experimentation is with solid state Bedini type chargers / energisers and I found this thread interesting insofar as it is discussing increasing the size and power of the basic Joule Thief.

Hoppy

Hoppy 02-05-2009 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sucahyo (Post 44275)
Wouldn't the battery keep charging even if we turned off/remove the transistor?

No, unless the supply DC voltage was higher than the charging battery terminal voltage plus about 0.6V for the forward voltage drop of the charging diode at any particular point in time.

Hoppy

sucahyo 02-05-2009 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hoppy (Post 44280)
No, unless the supply DC voltage was higher than the charging battery terminal voltage plus about 0.6V for the forward voltage drop of the charging diode at any particular point in time.

Hoppy

I see. So that is the reason to use twice source voltage for charged battery.


I think Joule thief would be more efficient if we use source positive as return path. Not 0V ground like many has use.

Hoppy 02-05-2009 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sucahyo (Post 44281)
I see. So that is the reason to use twice source voltage for charged battery.


I think Joule thief would be more efficient if we use source positive as return path. Not 0V ground like many has use.

Yes, this is the big advantage of radiant charging. Small potentials can be converted to much higher potentials for charging batteries that have a higher voltage than the source supply. But the conversion process reduces the available current proportionately, so the battery charges at a slower rate. Its not necessarily that more power is made available to charge a battery than was input to the device (OU) but its the high voltage radiant energy that John Bedini has shown can result in a process within the battery that increases its capacity. The desulfation process frees up cell plate area and this can result in a considerable increase in capacity. Some people have claimed that this is evidence of OU, because their batteries start to perform much better.

Switching the Joule Thief to positive return coupled with the use of Tesla style bifilar connected power coils should increase the radiant and this will drive big banks of LED's to give very good light output because of the RF content in the output. To test the radiant level, use a capacitor to store the discharged energy from the coil and measure the voltage level. The higher the DC voltage reached, the higher the radiant produced. Too much input voltage could saturate the coil and reduce the radiant level. Because of the high RF content, one wire output working is possile to light LED's.

Hoppy

Bodkins 02-05-2009 11:28 AM

Hi Hoppy
when charging a cap connect a ground to the negative it help the radiant charging.
YouTube - Maybe negative resistor

hope it helps
B

slayer007 02-05-2009 12:37 PM

I know I posted this a page ago but make sure you use a ferrite core NOT the powered iron.
With the ferrite cores I can light a 90v neon off my secondary winding Using just a 1.2v AA.
I have to use a analog meter to read it after it goes through a rectifier.
My cheap digital meters wont read it they just go nuts.
I dont know if it's pulsing to fast or if the meters are seeing some of the HV back spike but they don't work to read it.

I have a colored toroids that is powered iron wound the same way and I can NOT get any voltage out of the secondary coil.
It reads 0 volts.

So use FERRITE cores your BEMF will be twice as high and then your secondary winding will to.

Now I thinking about taking the iron core out of my pulse generator and replacing it with a ferrite core.
If it makes this big of a differance with the JT it should with that allso.

StevanC 02-05-2009 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hoppy (Post 44151)
Hi Stevan C
Battery charging and battery conditioning (energising) are different things and require different waveforms. A high frequency, high radiant content waveform will also charge a battery but not as efficiently as a , low radiant, low frequency pulsed waveform. Also, try connecting the charging battery neg terminal to 0V ground instead of the pos supply rail as is the convention with Bedini energisers. I find battery charging is more efficient with a 0V return and conditioning best with a return to the pos supply rail.

Hoppy

You mean to let the supplying battery power both the coil and the receiving battery?
And additionally let the coil strike over the receiving battery?

or?

Joit 02-05-2009 04:07 PM

@Slayer you talk about the Ring- or Cylinder Cores, or Iron and Ferritcores in general?

slayer007 02-05-2009 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joit (Post 44316)
@Slayer you talk about the Ring- or Cylinder Cores, or Iron and Ferritcores in general?

Yes the colored toroid cores are made of iron powder.
They don't work as near as good.
When you make one make sure you get a toroid core thats ferrite.

Joit 02-05-2009 04:13 PM

Duuh,
I am allready wind one, but its a colored Ringcore. Thanks for warning.

slayer007 02-05-2009 04:15 PM

They do work but the ferrite ones work twice as good.

Hoppy 02-05-2009 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StevanC (Post 44297)
You mean to let the supplying battery power both the coil and the receiving battery?
And additionally let the coil strike over the receiving battery?

or?

No, only the coil discharge should charge the receiving battery. I'm talking about the option to either connect the negative terminal of the charging battery to either 0V ground or the positive of the supplying battery.

Hoppy

Hoppy 02-05-2009 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bodkins (Post 44289)
Hi Hoppy
when charging a cap connect a ground to the negative it help the radiant charging.
YouTube - Maybe negative resistor

hope it helps
B

Cheers for the tip.

Hoppy

Joit 02-06-2009 01:56 AM

i build now one up to, but the same, it didnt work first.
Coudnt figure, why it should make anything, when the base is connected to Plus.
Then i figured out, i had to switch the Wires, one from left side and one from right side to Plus, that the Current run opposite and the Coils start oscillating.

Now it runs with AC DC with my Sharpener and a Pencil over a BC548C as Source and at the OSC with very very weird Waves.

sucahyo 02-06-2009 03:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hoppy (Post 44285)
Switching the Joule Thief to positive return coupled with the use of Tesla style bifilar connected power coils should increase the radiant and this will drive big banks of LED's to give very good light output because of the RF content in the output. To test the radiant level, use a capacitor to store the discharged energy from the coil and measure the voltage level. The higher the DC voltage reached, the higher the radiant produced. Too much input voltage could saturate the coil and reduce the radiant level. Because of the high RF content, one wire output working is possile to light LED's.

Thanks for the info, I guess I have to try to reach that.


About frequency, anyone ever notice that charging part and lighting in secondary part require different resonant frequency? at least at my circuit the charging part seems to need much higher frequency than the lighting part. The lighting part become dim when the frequency made the chaging part have the most volt.

StevanC 02-06-2009 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hoppy (Post 44330)
No, only the coil discharge should charge the receiving battery. I'm talking about the option to either connect the negative terminal of the charging battery to either 0V ground or the positive of the supplying battery.

Hoppy

I see,
so You add up the powering battery's voltage to the spike voltage. You get more 'bang for buck' without loosing any more energy, provided the powering battery is below the receiving battery's voltage?

I tried it, but I'm kind of more comfortable to do it 'vanila' way?

Hoppy 02-06-2009 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StevanC (Post 44435)
I see,
so You add up the powering battery's voltage to the spike voltage. You get more 'bang for buck' without loosing any more energy, provided the powering battery is below the receiving battery's voltage?

I tried it, but I'm kind of more comfortable to do it 'vanila' way?

StevanC

John Bedini explains that the input is isolated from the output because the coil discharge happens when the transistor is 'off', so the supply battery cannot add voltage to the coil discharge in either output configuration.

Hoppy

StevanC 02-06-2009 07:27 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hoppy (Post 44454)
StevanC

John Bedini explains that the input is isolated from the output because the coil discharge happens when the transistor is 'off', so the supply battery cannot add voltage to the coil discharge in either output configuration.

Hoppy

Hoppy,
does this picture, i hope i will upload, describe what we are discussing about?

feel free to edit it to match?

Hoppy 02-06-2009 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StevanC (Post 44465)
Hoppy,
does this picture, i hope i will upload, describe what we are discussing about?

feel free to edit it to match?


Yes, these are the two configurations.

Hoppy

StevanC 02-07-2009 11:29 AM

Mind bogging idea?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hoppy (Post 44469)
Yes, these are the two configurations.

Hoppy

1. Ain't we 'milking' the trigger strand in 0V mode instead of "milking" the power strand on the "COM" mode?
8:-)

2. Could we milk them both in a way?

3. The FWBR type is the further variant (no contact to source)

It crossed my thoughts this morning:
A. As all energy vortices ("electrons") have spin (*vortices* just happen to be spins of stuff ;-) ), all electrons inherently have spin.
B. brought to existance by a uniform sharp gradient of a collapcing mag-filed, the electrons (vortices) should all receive an uniform, ordered spin with all axles parallel to the mag-fields axis?
C. As the event passes along the conductors, it both transfers and aligns axes of other vortices nearby
D. in the end we have a L.A.B. filled (re-plenished) with electrons of like spin.

Could this be the source of the unusual properties of the charge?
Where would further expanding of this idea lead us to?

Inquorate 02-07-2009 11:42 AM

That is the same mind boggling idea I've been having ever since I found out about fluffy voltage charge :-)

Thankyou for encapsulating the concept in such a clear, easy to understand manner! :notworthy:

Now, if we can get people to understand that magnetic field produced by these moving electrons (and magnets etc) is a product of the time it takes to manifest the movement :-)

Like bodkins has been saying all along, BEMF is compressed time.

StevanC 02-07-2009 12:34 PM

the bogled mind needs "time for recovery"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Inquorate (Post 44546)
That is the same mind boggling idea I've been having ever since I found out about fluffy voltage charge :-)

Thankyou for encapsulating the concept in such a clear, easy to understand manner! :notworthy:

Now, if we can get people to understand that magnetic field produced by these moving electrons (and magnets etc) is a product of the time it takes to manifest the movement :-)

Like bodkins has been saying all along, BEMF is compressed time.

kthx :D

I've been "thought-lifting" my brain a while now (bench mind-pressing), so it's kinda "fit" :-P

I'm afraid i lost You with time-pressing ???

IMHO, the time compression Mr. Bedini talks about is in a different context ?
We don't alter the amount *used*, we merely *require* less amount - that is the time compression as I understand it:
We do more in less time = we do more easy with same energy = we achieve more for less?

(morning gone - no more light bulbs lit :-( )

Hoppy 02-07-2009 06:22 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by StevanC (Post 44545)
1. Ain't we 'milking' the trigger strand in 0V mode instead of "milking" the power strand on the "COM" mode?
8:-)

2. Could we milk them both in a way?

3. The FWBR type is the further variant (no contact to source)

It crossed my thoughts this morning:
A. As all energy vortices ("electrons") have spin (*vortices* just happen to be spins of stuff ;-) ), all electrons inherently have spin.
B. brought to existance by a uniform sharp gradient of a collapcing mag-filed, the electrons (vortices) should all receive an uniform, ordered spin with all axles parallel to the mag-fields axis?
C. As the event passes along the conductors, it both transfers and aligns axes of other vortices nearby
D. in the end we have a L.A.B. filled (re-plenished) with electrons of like spin.

Could this be the source of the unusual properties of the charge?
Where would further expanding of this idea lead us to?

Give schematic a try. I make no claims but its interesting. I forgot to add on the schematic that it may need starting by tapping a magnet on one end of the coil and leaving it there.

Hoppy

Edit: Please note that I have drawn the capacitor the wrong way round. Positive should face D1.

Inquorate 02-07-2009 08:47 PM

Magnetic fields and electric current = time
 
@ StevenC - some VERY interesting reading, if you're short on time, just read the last one for what I mean about magnetic field being time. Otherwise, all the rest is also eye-opening, just keep in mind, I think they (Depalma and tewari) are wrong about the aether being incompressable; I think it is superfluid, and yes, electrons are vortices like what forms when you pull the plug in a bath :-)

FROM THE ELECTRON TO A PERPETUAL SYSTEM OF MOTION

Genesis of Free Power Generation

Limitation of the Law of Energy Conservation
This is the one about time.
On the Nature of Electrical Induction

Also, this is a pretty good page of links, Aether Theories - Collation of Scientific Theories of the Aether

Specifically the one dealing with superfluid aether.

Joit 02-08-2009 07:00 PM

Lmao, Now i did connect a 220V/24V Transformer to my 1,3V Batt,
and at the right Connection, i guess thick Wires on Pot side, Led starts flickering like a Discolight!
I can control the flicker Speed with the Pot ha ha.
And light seems brighter too as with the Toroid.

I usual can get all Circuits to work, just need to switch Wires all time, till it works
My galvanic Batt with a Sharpender and Graphitpencil boostet from 1,3 to 8 V in good case.
But amp drops from 4mA to 1mA at a toroid.
With the Transformer still 2,5mA

Edit Pot is ~10k

Joit 02-08-2009 08:51 PM

Now when i put another Pot between C and Coil,
the Led start slowly flickering and speed up with unconstantly pulses. Oo
I think, Aliens are sending me a Message Aha-ha-ha.


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