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  #61  
Old 08-19-2009, 03:07 AM
jeff_behary jeff_behary is offline
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Variations of this circuit...OU questions...??

Karl,
I made some experiments with this type of circuit a few years ago. You might try some neat wireless lighting experiments too:
The Turn Of The Century Electrotherapy Museum Tesla Library



I tried to replicate this too tonight from a picture I have of Tesla's original:



I think it would be a great addition to our museum here. I remember when you visited you remarked we should have one. I agree! I made mine 56" tall and 40" wide from 7/8" copper tubing.

I did some tests tonight at only 30 watts, but never found any OU. But I did have some fun. I put a 16" Pancake Coil in front of the loop and without any electrical connection got some 3" sparks...

I also was able to light a mercury quartz tube with no problems , but the sparks on my wireless coil disappeared!

Then I tried a smaller incandescent bulb that worked well and gave me a little brush discharge on the wireless coil...


but I wasn't able to get more than 30W out of the setup. My transformer is 3500V 8mA.
I do have an oil-burner transformer thats 10kV 23mA...it consumes 230 watts approximately. Are you saying you can light more than 230 watts worth of lamps in the circuit you're using at the same time?

I'd love to find a better way of running incandescent lamps and explore some of Tesla's early work.

I hate compact flourescent lights and Congress here has banned incandescents in the future. The same guys who don't want us to play with cool mercury tilt switches and fun relays because its dangerous are telling us we can only buy lamps that contain it and will probably ruin the environment when everyone decides to throw them in the trash instead of bringing them to the dump in the future...

Jeff Behary
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  #62  
Old 08-19-2009, 03:35 AM
jeff_behary jeff_behary is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boguslaw View Post
I'm wondering if it's possible to scale down this circuit to let's say 2-3kV range
That would attract a lot of EE to replicate it and confirm all effects. I would love to breadboard it or at least use more commonly available parts.
Just an idea, but a circuit of size of DrStiffler SEC would be wonderful if possible
In 2007 I modified an antique "Violet Ray" machine to make one of these. It was actually a machine with a burned-out Tesla Coil. I replaced the Tesla Coil with a large loop of copper.



I exhaggerated the inverted "U" into a loop to be able to make electrical connections easier.

The Violet Ray circuit is simply an electromagnet that turns itself on and off and uses the back EMF to charge a cap and discharge it through a coil. The voltage put into the coil is less than 1000 volts.

I made some videos using another antique medical Tesla Coil. Both the hand-held and and stationary models were only consuming 30 watts or so from the wall:

http://www.electrotherapymuseum.com/.../Impedance.wmv

To rewind the original Tesla Coils in these old machines is a tedious process. For a slight distraction, here is a gallery of over 3 dozen Tesla Coils from the early 1900s that were all operated using this same basic low voltage power supply.
The Turn Of The Century Electrotherapy Museum (C) Jeff Behary 2009: Resonator Coils - Disruptive Discharge Coils to Violet Ray Machines

Its kind of a crude circuit, but here a breadboard version of the same concept of power supply that replaces the make and break interrupter with a standard contacter relay:
The Turn Of The Century Electrotherapy Museum Tesla Library



You could easily replace the Pancake Coil with the "Hairpin" or impedance coil and run it from 110V AC or DC...

Tesla did his originally in his lab at Houston Street:


He actually made the loop and Pancake coils interchangable!


Jeff Behary
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  #63  
Old 08-19-2009, 03:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boguslaw View Post
I'm wondering if it's possible to scale down this circuit to let's say 2-3kV range
That would attract a lot of EE to replicate it and confirm all effects. I would love to breadboard it or at least use more commonly available parts.
Just an idea, but a circuit of size of DrStiffler SEC would be wonderful if possible
@Boguslaw - only one way to find out; just buy a $2 goldfish and light up a bulb with uninsulated wires in it's water bowl.
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  #65  
Old 08-19-2009, 10:37 PM
jeff_behary jeff_behary is offline
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"ZERO" current??

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Originally Posted by Karl_Palsness View Post
Thanks for interest in Tesla's work...I just dug it out of his books and was able to get the same effects Tesla talked about.

In my opinion the "overunity effect", is that the lights and other effects that form is not from sending energy to the bulbs but rather from the result of the bulb been in the presents of the scaler wave. We pay to make the scaler wave, and the better we get at it the less money we have to pay to make the wave...once you have the wave you can use it to create energy. I have seen huge scaler waves made with about 50W of energy. Tesla was able to make even bigger scaler waves under 20W according to the literature. It is kind of like the light bulb...you get say 100W out of an incandescent bulb, But there are now better ways to get the same equivalent light with say 15W compact florescent bulb and if you look at a laser you get even more. So we need to find better ways to make the scaler wave and better ways to collect the energy from the wave. The energy is coming to us free from the environment, we use the scaler wave to just release/tap the energy that is already there.

If you read Tesla your question of;

"Rather than using lamps, can you attach a transformer and load secondary?"

Is yes...he used this type of connection on his Tesla coils and also on other types of transformers. The "Tesla coil" is really a very small part of Tesla's work. And we all have fallen into the propaganda trap to the purpose of the Tesla coil and how it is to be made. From my reading we are to wind the coils way different than we make the now. But this thread is not intended for Tesla coil manufacturing lessons.

Finally, your question;

"How much is the current and voltage on the lamp?"

The answer is, there is O "ZERO" NO CURRENT going to the lamp. To understand radiant energy is to avoid electrons at all cost. Or in other words, Radiant energy is void of electrons.

Hope that answers your questions.

Karl

Karl: If you re-read the lecture that inspired you to build that coil, you will see exactly how and why the lamp is lit. Tesla provides a very fascinating account of what is happening in the lamp, and the mention of "Scalar Waves" is nowhere to be found. He mentions quite clearly convection currents and bombardment of the filament, and shows the how the same thing cannot be done effectively if the vacuum was not present. (He broke the tip off of one bulb as an example).

The lecture "On Light And Other High Frequency Phenomena" presents vast fields of new technologies for lighting...Tesla goes on to say how bulbs with ribbon or refractory buttons will incandesce even greater than those with filaments using high frequency...and goes on to explain what happens in those situations electrically in great detail. And in all cases the lamps were lit from high frequency *currents*. If you short a wire (without a lamp) across the hairpin you will definately see *current* in the form of a bright arc. If you put electrodes on either end of the coil and have enough current you can actually cook beef with one of these! (Or yourself if you're not careful)...Tesla's own Diathermy circuit was essentially the same thing...a "hairpin" with electrodes for heating the body...see his article to the American Electrotherapeutic Association, 1898. Neat article!

I don't mean to criticise your explanation of the circuit, but Tesla presents some very interesting points that shouldn't be left out or ignored...

You can recreate these experiments with any Tesla Coil to some extent. If you remove the secondary coil and short-circuit a lamp across the primary coil you will find points where the lamp lights brightest. In the early days of commercial surgical diathermy Tesla Coils they actually placed light bulbs in series with the patients to see how much current was being used to heat tissues...(depending on how bright the lamp was lit) ... this was a standard way of measuring high frequency currents even until the 20s and 30s.
They took two concepts of Tesla and used them together in a clever way.
A light bulb was more accurate than a milliampere meter in many ways for hf.

There are a lot of novel experiments that can be done with that circuit. Tesla's lecture outlines some of the greatest things, and it would be well worth looking further into the rest of what he mentions in that original article. We're in need of a new efficient light bulb!
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Old 08-19-2009, 10:43 PM
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Thanks!

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Originally Posted by FuzzyTomCat View Post
@ Jeff Behary

Hi and welcome to Energetic Forum !! I have seen the outstanding collection of reference material at The Turn Of The Century Electrotherapy Museum Tesla Library most of collected by you and some others .... excellent job

For other members and guests the material is well worth looking at here are just a few ...

Sir William Crookes - On Radiant Matter
Thomas Stanley Curtis High Frequency Apparatus - Tesla Coil Construction / Schematics
Diathermy Therapy - H G Fischer
Noble M Eberhart A Working Manual Of High Frequency Currents
The Turn Of The Century Electrotherapy Museum (C) Jeff Behary 2008 - Tesla Bulbs, Tesla Remote Controlled Sub / Submarine; Misc. Arcticles.
The Turn Of The Century Electrotherapy Museum - Elihu Thomson - Wireless Transmission Of Energy
The Turn Of The Century Electrotherapy Museum - Tesla True Wireless (Thanks to Steve!)

Thanks Again,
Glen
Glen -
Glad you enjoy some of the stuff. It took over a decade to compile, so far. We try to have rare information lurking in every unorganised corner. Don't fall for many of the medical claims, most of the medical booklets are provided for entertainment more than anything else. The early stuff was fairly legit though (X-Rays, Surgical, ...). Mainly we focus on period information. A lot written after Tesla's death was bogus or inaccurate. His own lectures provided such wealths of information, but sadly many of the words are ignored or taken out of context.

Love the profile picture, BTW...our cats also litter the site...literally!

Jeff
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  #67  
Old 08-22-2009, 06:20 AM
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Simple circuit to develop 60kv ac for scalar wave creation

YouTube - development of circuit to drive hairpin with 60kv ac
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  #68  
Old 08-22-2009, 07:17 AM
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INQ,

niiiiiiiiiiice
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  #69  
Old 08-24-2009, 07:15 AM
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Well then Ben, we will have to fire it up tomorrow and see how she goes
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  #70  
Old 08-24-2009, 01:43 PM
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BE CAREFUL Inquorate!

What would happen if your hooking lights up to your set up and suddenly your spark gap stops while the high voltage is still runinng
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  #71  
Old 08-24-2009, 11:00 PM
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Smack bang straight to the moon..

Don't worry, I shortened the spark gap; if anything blows, it'll be on purpose so I get it on film
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  #72  
Old 08-25-2009, 04:53 AM
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Inquorate's power, Ren's hairpin

We tried 20kv to 60kv, from 240v mains, drawing up to 2 amps till popped a fuse. Added more mass or less; filament globe wouldn't light up, and fluro in water bit Ren.. Any thoughts on why no radiant / scalar effects?

YouTube - hairpin attempt
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  #73  
Old 08-25-2009, 05:33 AM
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Answering myself?

It's quite likely that the discharge frequency is too small. How to up the frequency? Some variation of this before the main spark gap;

YouTube - How to add an LC circuit to mechanical switch output, to increase switch frequency

Love and light
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  #74  
Old 09-23-2009, 04:20 PM
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I just wanted to say thanks to Jeff Behary for all that he has done for me and the time he has taken to spend with me. I have learned a lot from Jeff and anyone hear can and should learn a lot from him. Anyone that sees his collection will be amazed. The amount of work and money put into the collection together is quite amazing. His working museum is self funded and truly a national heritage. His work should be supported as much as possible. I've always looked forward to visiting his museum and most of all, just talking with Jeff.

A great scientist once said something like this..."there is got to be differences of opinion in science, but it is the facts that move us forward." Jeff and I have several differences of opinion, and it is those differences that make us learn. It is my opinion that this is not just high voltage that we are after. In the end we have to pay to split the dipole and nothing can change that.

Tesla talks about his/this method of conversion initially in his famous article from the electrical engineer 1892. In 1893, before the Franklin Institute in Philadelphia, he gives a diagram that shows a way to convert AC or DC energy into this different energy that is often referred to as Radiant Energy. Peter Lindemann gave a lecture spending a lot of time on this diagram. Radiant energy is a very broad term and includes many effects, events, wave type, ect... Once converted, it can manifest it's self into electricity that we can use and meter.



The first clue to this experiment shown is that the spark gap, the spark changes when conversion is taking place. What does this tell you? It's spark looks different and sounds different. The conventional spark such as in the ignition circuit of a furnace is feeble , it can be blown out easy and is very quiet. But it you properly transform the energy...the spark now consists of many streamers and is very loud and not easily interrupted. It also looks different in color and texture.

Another major clue you can touch the bar with the Hairpin with caps on each side of the hairpin! On the Hairpin with the caps on only one side you should not touch it as the bar is not isolated from the high voltage and it will bite you. Your body is to high in resistance to allow anything through. Again what does this tell you? You can learn a lot from building this design, don't say you know anything unless you have replicated and see and ask yourself the questions.

The energy travels on the outside of the wire...just like a gas!!! If this was skin effect you would not be able to put the bare wires into water and light a bulb...the salt water would short out the skin effect. So again...we can not meter this energy and there is no solution for current flow at any simultaneous point in time. Tesla strove to for transformed resonance. The smaller the resistance or the impedance of the conducting path and the more perfect the dielectric the better this process became.

High voltage energy not converted burns your hands when you touch the wire...just try and touch an ham radio antenna even at low power. I am a armature radio operator and can tell you it hurts...real bad!!

You can do many different effects once the transformation has taken place, light light bulbs, run motors, but only if no energy is allowed to return and kill the initial input you put in. There must be a floating ground to catch this energy. The energy is all around us in a compressed form, we live in the middle of two giant plates of a capacitor, wiggle it correctly, then catch it!

If it was just high frequency voltage why did Tesla spend so much time learning how to transform this energy. I'll tell you why, he was a great studier on what happened just before the current got through to the other end of the wire. If we could see this energy we would have had it a long time ago. But are meters don't show this!!! So instead we make high frequency generators....constantly killing the dipole.

To me, Tesla made the Hairpin and demonstrated it in his lectures to show the transformed energy and what this energy can and cannot do. It is simply is a learning tool and shows us how to work with it. Energy is everywhere once the condition of this form of resonance.


What people have to figure out on this hairpin, is the quality of the dielectric capacitors. When I use smaller different high voltage caps the device does not convert all the energy...use to different bigger caps and the caps can not play a role and no transformation takes place. The ability to find the correct balance of quality dielectric material and small impedance/resistance and of Impulse freq. is absolutely crucial in this process.

There are many ways to deal with this form of conversion once you understand the rules and what to look for. The key is Disruptive Discharges of Differentials of Potential. Whether we are talking about Radiant, bidirectional longitudinal waves, Scalar or any other name we want to put onto it...we are using a coupling of vectors where it does not makes since for electrons to move! Once you see this, you will understand that Joules Law is not involved and how this is Nature's open path for getting energy. There are potentials everywhere, but the true energy is what comes before the dipole is created.

Special Thanks to Jeremy for helping with this post, and researching with me!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Hairpin 2 resized.JPG (41.5 KB, 161 views)
File Type: jpg tesla conversins cleen resized.jpg (24.2 KB, 716 views)
File Type: jpg Hairpin ver 2.JPG (43.4 KB, 161 views)
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  #75  
Old 09-12-2010, 04:02 AM
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What is Tesla's patent number for the hair pin circuit?

Thanks
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Old 09-12-2010, 04:32 AM
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The actual hairpin circuit isn't disclosed in a patent. It's in his lectures. On light and High Frequency Phenomena and that set of lectures () The requested page does not exist. The patent with the most similarity is Method and Apparatus for Conversion and Distribution US Patent 462,418. Hope this helps

Raui
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Old 09-12-2010, 06:45 AM
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Excellent work

Karl

Thank you so much for your eye-open work and the inspiration you founded in us.

I've two questions for you, the first one is simple and maybe you've said it before. The second, is more difficult.

1) I've heard that other very important factor involved in this conversion is a relation between the frequency and the capacitance. Depending the frequency of the AC electricity, you need to use capacitors of different capacitance. As you may know, I don't know the relation.

2) Another thing I've heard about the decomposition of the electromagnetic waves (I call decomposition at the process to extract radiant energy from transverse energy), is that the radiant wave can also be decomposed in other energies. In your process you show how to get the electric part, radiant energy, from the electromagnetic wave. The electric part is composed of 2 waves that are in phase in space, but 180 degrees out of phase in time. I know there is possible to use the time or anti-time wave part of the radiant energy.
do you know some reference about how to accomplish this process?
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Old 09-13-2010, 01:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raui View Post
The actual hairpin circuit isn't disclosed in a patent. It's in his lectures. On light and High Frequency Phenomena and that set of lectures () The requested page does not exist. The patent with the most similarity is Method and Apparatus for Conversion and Distribution US Patent 462,418. Hope this helps

Raui
Thank you!!
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Old 10-25-2010, 09:55 PM
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I can't understand one thing. Why all of you decided this is radiant energy in the circuit? This circuit is exact replica of Lecher line. Just google it and you'll see that circuit works as resonator + standing waves former, that's why bulb changes its brightness when you moving it along the bars.

Also Tesla says only about high frequency currents. There is no radiant energy in his lectures. I have original lectures on serbian and russian, english ones have some misinterpretations.
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Old 10-26-2010, 03:02 AM
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I have original lectures on serbian and russian, english ones have some misinterpretations.
Do you have lecture of Tesla in front of British Royal Society at 1893? it said to be the only time Tesla mentioning radiant in a lecture.
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Old 10-26-2010, 09:30 AM
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sucahyo, What exact lecture do you mean? I know the lecture "Experiments with alternate currents of high potential and high frequency " that have been read to a British Royal society 3,4 and 19 of February 1892.
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Old 10-28-2010, 03:09 AM
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Ashanin,
While I was never aware of the Lecher line it still raises questions for me because the short was not the only property of this circuit that was anomalous. There is also the problem about it not electrocuting us and lighting a bulb under water. I'd love to hear some comment on this if you could.

Raui
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Old 10-28-2010, 05:17 AM
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sucahyo, What exact lecture do you mean? I know the lecture "Experiments with alternate currents of high potential and high frequency " that have been read to a British Royal society 3,4 and 19 of February 1892.
I am not sure about the year, the link bellow mention that it is not HF or HV:
Nikola Tesla - The Complete Patents of Nikola Tesla - The Man who invented the 20th Century
Quote:
In this very last dramatic demonstration Tesla revealed to British Academia the disruptive electric discharge and the properties of electric rays. Tesla made a rare and complete "full disclosure" of the electric ray effect at the very end of his lecture. It was the very last time he would ever do so again in academic circles.

Tesla showed that the new radiant electricity was distinctive, having been openly proclaimed during the London Royal Society lectures. Tesla deliberately compared and contrasted the potent impulse radiance to his previous weak effects produced by alternating currents (February 1892). Fluorescent lamps and other luminous wonders held his audience spellbound. All the while his voice, tenor-like by excitement, rang throughout the silent awestruck hall.

He demonstrated wireless lamps, lit to full brilliance by radiant electricity. He ran small motors at sizable distances for his audiences to see. This last lecture represents the only recorded instance in which Tesla openly announced his discovery of the electro-radiant impulse. He tells the personally revolutionizing aspect of his discovery and how it virtually eradicates his previous work. He went to great detail verbally describing and disclosing the exact means for eliciting the phenomenon.

In his closing time Tesla quickly demonstrates special "electrostatic" motors and lamps made to utilize the radiant effect. Examination of these first lamp and vane-motor devices reveals their primitive and initial state. Tesla modeled the motor after the Crookes radiometer, stating this fact publicly for the benefit of his revered mentor. Tesla finally stated the vast implications of the discovery. He pointed their minds toward the establishment of true power transmission.
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Old 10-28-2010, 05:51 AM
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Originally Posted by ashanin View Post
I can't understand one thing. Why all of you decided this is radiant energy in the circuit? This circuit is exact replica of Lecher line. Just google it and you'll see that circuit works as resonator + standing waves former, that's why bulb changes its brightness when you moving it along the bars.

Also Tesla says only about high frequency currents. There is no radiant energy in his lectures. I have original lectures on serbian and russian, english ones have some misinterpretations.

I believe that you may misunderstand what Tesla meant when he discussed "high frequency currents". From everything I can tell he used radiant energy interchangeably with "high frequency currents".

For your reference, and every one else on here, Tesla specifies what he means by high frequency currents in patent 454,622, "System of electric lighting", from line 54 to line 62:

"I would here state that by the terms "currents of high frequency and high potential" and similar expressions which I have used in this description I do not mean, necessarily, currents in the usual acceptance of the term, but, generally speaking, electrical disturbances or effects such as would be produced in the secondary source by the action of the primary disturbance or electrical effect."
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Old 10-29-2010, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Raui View Post
Ashanin,
While I was never aware of the Lecher line it still raises questions for me because the short was not the only property of this circuit that was anomalous. There is also the problem about it not electrocuting us and lighting a bulb under water. I'd love to hear some comment on this if you could.

Raui
If there are only currents of high frequency then you won't be electrocuted. And two capacitors in the schematic work like high frequency filters.

Also as i know the water is really bad conductor of HF currents. If you watch the video carefully you'll see that the bulb lighting only when it is connected to 2 wires. Disconnecting 1 wire turns the bulb off.

First i wanted to test this schematic with a spark gap and even purchased 2" copper rod... Anyway it will be easy to compare Lecher line and Hairpin.


Quote:
I believe that you may misunderstand what Tesla meant when he discussed "high frequency currents". From everything I can tell he used radiant energy interchangeably with "high frequency currents".
That's why i want to make it clear about the difference of HF AC effects and raadiant. Not just to jump and say WOW, THIS IS RADIANT...

Karl in his lecture first showed rattleback (a piece of plastic) saying it is impossible to explain how it works. This is not true.


sucahyo, i need to look through the materials i have
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Old 10-30-2010, 02:50 AM
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sucahyo, i need to look through the materials i have
Thank you. I fail to find it online. I can't find even a record of that happened in the royal british society website. The only one mentioning it was Garry Vassilatos. But Sir William Crookes has believe radiant matter at 1876 (On radiant matter), referencing faraday. Maybe Tesla use radiant word by Crookes suggestion.
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Old 10-30-2010, 05:29 AM
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That's why i want to make it clear about the difference of HF AC effects and raadiant. Not just to jump and say WOW, THIS IS RADIANT...
HF AC is not present in the portions of the circuit where "longitudinal/radiant/scalar" events are being claimed. If you read Tesla's work and actually run through the experiment, section by section, you should understand this.

I have been planning on setting up the tesla hairpin at some point, simply as a demo for others, but I have already replicated this longitudinal effect with a micro controller, which is powered by a car battery. The point being, as Tesla demonstrated, you can get this effect with DC or AC voltage, it is an issue of the abruptness of the circuit make and break, combined with the capacitor filtration of transverse waves from what tesla called the working portion of the circuit.

I think you need to read more from the victorian era, such as Tesla's work, Crooke, and even Edison. Then study Tesla's lectures on the issue as no one else comes close to his level of empirical research on the matter.




Quote:
Karl in his lecture first showed rattleback (a piece of plastic) saying it is impossible to explain how it works. This is not true.
I'm not familiar with the rattleback, but it should be noted that even if he was incorrect on that issue, it does not mean he was incorrect on another issue. The bulk of his discussion on the Tesla work was on target as far as I'm concerned. There are some things that I noted that I perceive differently, but that's simply due to what I've read vs. what he's read.
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Old 11-08-2010, 03:11 AM
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Old 11-08-2010, 03:26 AM
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Old 11-08-2010, 07:31 PM
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