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  #61 (permalink)  
Old 03-17-2011, 08:20 PM
Guruji Guruji is offline
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Hho

Is it safe to run an engine on HHO cause Ravi had said that after two months the engine has to be rebored when run by HHO?.
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  #62 (permalink)  
Old 03-17-2011, 08:39 PM
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Jetijs Jetijs is offline
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I have not tried that, I have used hho on the engines only as a booster and in this case you can use it nonstop. My fathers car runs with a booster and improved mkileage (about 16%) for two years now without any problems. As for the 100% hho fuel I would think that you would need to change the timing, because the fuel burn speeds are different and use at least some percentage of gasoline mixed with oils to provide lubrication for the pistons and other internal engine stuff. Anyway, I have not tried that as I have not found a way to generate hho with COP>1.
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  #63 (permalink)  
Old 03-19-2011, 11:40 PM
dutchdivco dutchdivco is offline
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Jetsis

Looked into this pretty extensively.My conclusion, for what its worth, is its a lot more complicated than you might think, at first glance.
One thing you might look at; Coat the top of your pistons with 'pure' palladium.As the temp in the combustion chamber approaches 1000 degrees F., this will catalyctically crack the fuel, into Hydrogen and Methane, and ignite it.No liquid unburned, (or partially burned, or burned too late in the cycle to give any realistic power). I purchased 2 books, 25 'leaves' each, of Palladium Leaf, 99% pure, from an art supply place.At that time cost about $50/book.Mu intention, if I ever get to it, is to use that with salt water and electricity, to plate the top of the pistons with palladium.First time I start it up, gonna stand waaaaaay back tho!
BTW, some of the vaporising of the fuel occurs during the downstroke, AFTER the intake valve has closed. The vacuum created causes vaporisation.When gasoline vaporises, it gets very cold.It therefore absorbs heat from the top of the piston, valves, etc, cooling the cylinder just prior to the next combustion cycle.Without this cooling effect, things get hot quick.Jim
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  #64 (permalink)  
Old 03-30-2011, 08:43 AM
faramog faramog is offline
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Gents - a really interesting and useful thread. I had no idea how much information or experimentation is there to look at.

Strickes me from a helicopter view that heating is not the answer due to complex fractional nature of the petrol (or diesel). You would inevevitably fraction is sequence of lightest first and likely lead to corrosion or clogging effects.

I seem to remember some writing on hydroxy creation using electrostatic resonance or something (a bit fague- sorry), so perhaps the notion is no so much pure vapour as extremely small droplets. The droplet sizes creates during normal carb operation are relatively high leading to inconsistent burn and there is no reason (maybe) that small 'clumps' of droplets would not act more like a vapour. The absolute energy recoverable may not be as much as with a pure vapour, but the need to turbo the fuel flow to modulate the mass balance could be diminished making a simpler and cheaper solution.

Of course... I am probably talking tosh !
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  #65 (permalink)  
Old 03-30-2011, 02:39 PM
dutchdivco dutchdivco is offline
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Hey, all

Bought several 120v a/c air ionising units, new surplus.These are like the units on air putifiers.Planned on running them with an inverter, and inserting the 'discharge needle' into the air intake stream.Never got around to doing it, yet.It should eliminate the need for an air filter, although would have to clean the air intake tube the needles are inserted into, every so often.This would be a no resistance rather than low resistance filtering system, and yet would get all particulates, of any size.Also, it would ionise the air, and so any H20 molecules in the air would be 'split' into hydrogen and oxygen, and even could use water injection to increase amount of hydroxy.Anyway, still have sitting on shelf, but haven't got around to yet.
Might want to read materaial on " Theoldone" website.Guy has done some fascinating work.For instance, he found that air/fuel charge is stratified; 'lightest' easiest to vaporise and ignite 'fractions' are located at top of cylinder and, in clearly dilineated layers, work down to heaviest, most difficult to vaporise and ignite fractions laying in a layer right on top of piston.
One of his tricks, which he says but doesn't emphasise, is closing the intake valve early.If the piston is continueing to go down the cylinder with the intake valve closed, you get vacuum.Vacuum, or negative pressure, is 1 way to 'encourage gasoline to vaporise.As it vaporises, it absorbs tremendous amounts of heat; from piston, cylinder walls and valves; thus cooling chamber.This in turn allows him to re-engineer engines with much higher compression ratios, without encountering pre-ignition detonation.
While his work has all been on race cars, he makes it clear that his work is to get the most energy out of a gallon of fuel.After all, if a race car can go with 1 less pit stop than its competitor, it will win.Anyway, lots of good stuff there, but he doesn't hand it to you on a platter; you have to dig it out, read between the lines, etc.Google theoldone, should find the links.I'll see if I have them favorited, and post em if I can find them.Jim
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  #66 (permalink)  
Old 03-30-2011, 09:03 PM
Gdez Gdez is offline
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Electrolyzing Gasoline

I was wondering if anyone has tried to electrolize gasoline in an HHO setup. It sounds dangerous, and I am not recommending anyone to rush out and try it. Since plastics are derived from hydrocarbons, you would think that hydro carbon fuels would not carry a current very easily, but Lead or other additive might adittives might have an effect. Sounds crazy but, just wondering if anyone has given it any thought. Also Jetsis and Dutchdivco... like your posts, very informative.
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  #67 (permalink)  
Old 03-31-2011, 02:04 AM
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Gdez

Here is a way to vaporize gasoline.

YouTube - Ultrasonic Gasoline Vaporizer by Sul-tech

FRC
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  #68 (permalink)  
Old 03-31-2011, 09:30 AM
Gdez Gdez is offline
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Thanks frc

Liked the vid. Seems too simple. What about the additives that are supposely added to prevent a pogue style carb from working? Do they end up as residue I wonder? How would running this vapor through a regular carb work?
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  #69 (permalink)  
Old 03-31-2011, 07:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gdez View Post
Liked the vid. Seems too simple. What about the additives that are supposely added to prevent a pogue style carb from working? Do they end up as residue I wonder? How would running this vapor through a regular carb work?
I was hoping to try it on my Dodge van which is already on gas and propane.
A hose to the air cleaner forced by a fan . Also want to try water or a combination of both.

FRC
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  #70 (permalink)  
Old 03-31-2011, 08:02 PM
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Jetijs Jetijs is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gdez View Post
Liked the vid. Seems too simple. What about the additives that are supposely added to prevent a pogue style carb from working? Do they end up as residue I wonder? How would running this vapor through a regular carb work?
I also tried the ultrasonic vapor setup, but not in car, just for a test, here is a video:
YouTube - ultrasonic gasoline

I don't know about additives in fuels, they could prevent what I am intending to do with the fuel - cracking it into propane and butane, no vapors. But to test this out I will use homemade diesel and gasoline made out of polyethylene, this is simple to do and cheap, also I will be certain that there is nothing else in the fuel than hydrogen and carbon, no additives. If this works on my fuel and not with commercial fuels, then we have a case
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  #71 (permalink)  
Old 03-31-2011, 08:36 PM
dutchdivco dutchdivco is offline
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If thats your approach

Then your thinking has gotten away from the original post of vaporising gasoline. Not critisising, just noting.Actually, thats the way my thinking went, as well.
Again I would point to the idea of putting a catalyst in the cylinder; paladium or platinum coating the tops of the pistons is the most logical.Expensive stuff, but don't need a thick coating.Thats why I bought 2 books of "Palladium Leaf" from an art supply store.
Plating is pretty bsic; just suspend the piston upside down, so the top is submerged in an electrolyte solution.Suspend the 'book' of paladium lesf in the solution as well, hook a cathode to 1, and an anode to the other.
As the temperature approaches 1000 degrees F., in the chamber, your fuel will be catalyctic split, into hydrogen and ignited and burned.
Might need water injection, periodically to keep the palladium clean.Might also want to plate the face of the valves.
Only question is could the engine handle the heat of the hydrogen burning?
Anyway, never done it, but would like to try.Like others, got a lot more projects on the drawing board, than I can ever get too Jim
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  #72 (permalink)  
Old 04-01-2011, 03:32 AM
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Thanks dutchdivco

Thanks dutchdivco for the info on where to get palladium. I have wanted to
get some for quite a few years now, but for another purpose.

FRC
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  #73 (permalink)  
Old 04-01-2011, 05:53 AM
dutchdivco dutchdivco is offline
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If you have a problem

finding it, e-mail me, i think I've got it in my favorites.You do understand its leaf; its so thin that if you lay a piece of it on the flat palm of your hand, and blow on it it will end up across the room.The leaves are about 2 1/8" x 2 1/8" by infinitesimally thin.Anyway, have fun playing with it.Jim
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  #74 (permalink)  
Old 04-01-2011, 08:58 AM
Gdez Gdez is offline
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HHo micro torch

@ stealth
Since burning hho can produce high temps what about a mini torch to get the vaporizing temp? In the first hho video I saw a cuople years ago, the guy takes a hho torch and heats a brass ball to red hot in seconds. His torch was not very small but, it seems that a small heat exchanger would be possible to build, especially if it is to only heat a small tube for vaporization, as mentioned above with the pogue carb.
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Old 04-01-2011, 02:25 PM
dave_cahoon dave_cahoon is offline
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On the FLY

@jetijs

Take any old engine running good on propane or gasoline and twist off the muffler and any manifold or piping, easy to do on single cylinder engine.

In dark environment run the engine open exhaust mode. You will see a blue flame protruding from the valve about 4inches like a blowtorch. In that plume of burning materials is the energy to Crack on the fly. If you plumb to far away from the exhaust valve, your *test tube* wont be in the flame. Addition of air with the exhaust gas may help get a better flame in the plumbing.

Now how to vaporize heavy oils?? Need a vapor carby to feed the cracker.

How to get the oil to the hot spot with out it coking up at the delivery point?
How to meter out the very small amount of heavy oil that converted to propane runs the engine.?? A small amount of liquid oil makes a larger volume of propane.

Last, Using some humidity (again a wee bit goes a long way) maybe do the water shift reaction and make syngas/producer gas as a final product.

The geet system can setup most of those conditions in a simple way.
its the vapor carby for oils that is the stall point for me.

Dave

PS Partial oxidation experiment take the mesh from your ultrasonic gasoline experiment. With 2 lighters. Light a lighter and hold the mesh above the flame such that 90% or more is snuffed. Then with the second lighter ignite the gasses above the mesh. Next step is a tube with mesh on each end and a ignition system inside. In the draft of an engine.

Yes heat and vacuum are keys. Once you get it.
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  #76 (permalink)  
Old 04-01-2011, 03:04 PM
dutchdivco dutchdivco is offline
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Its complicated

and involves a lot more than just vaporising gasoline.First of all, it has to do with the nature of gasoline, and with the nature, or how it works, of infernal combustion engines.
Firstly, gasoline; for comparison, you have a gallon of 100% pure alcohol; each drop in that gallon is exactly the same as every other drop, and each molecule in a drop is the same as every other. (I'm not a chemist, just trying to explain a concept, here.)
Gasoline is very different.Its composed of something like 2000 different compounds, each with different qualities; and I'm not even talking about the additives.These different compounds are called 'Fractions'; some vaporise very easily and are called 'lighter' fractions, some not so easily, and some are very difficult to vaporise'; medium and heavy fractions.
Each drop is composed of light, medium and heavy fractions.
To see this, pour 1/2 oz. or so of gasoline in a bowl, and set it outside. Just the air over the surface will encourage the lightest fractions to vaporise, and eveaporate fairly quickly.Within 1/2 hr. or so, depending on wind and ambient temp., the bowl will 'loose' 1/2 its volume. In another hour or so, the remaining amount will decrease by 1/2, and so on.But, if it remains undisturbed, a week later there will STILL be a small amount of liquid remaining in the bowl; these are the heaviest fractions.
Now, don't need to do this, cause others have already done it, but; Take a small metal pan, an electric hotplate, and a long extension cord.Run the cord out away from anything flamable, hook the hotplate up, set the pan on it, and turn it on and put a small amount of gasoline in the pan.As it heats up, the gasoline will begin to vaporise.Actually, the lightest fractions will begin to vaporise at ambient temps.Anyway, if you succed in heating it up to 1000 degrees F., you will vaporise all of it, and will see a blue grey vapor that looks like smoke, in the pan.It isn't smoke, its vaporised gasoline.If you tilt the pan you can pour it into another container, cause its considerably heavier than air.If you stick your finger in it, it will be cold; damn cold.Vaporised gasoline absorbs a tremendous amount of heat.And, unless you continue to put a lot of energy, in the form of heat, into it, it will re-condense into a liquid.
2 things vaporise gasoline; heat and vacuum (or negative pressure).And 2 things will cause them to recondense; lack of sufficient heat, or positive pressure.
So, you've got this vaporiser, that uses heat and or negative pressure to vaporise the fuel totally; now you've got to get this vapor into the cylinder of the engine; How? Its heavier than air, so doesn't move readily in.You can't pump/squirt it in, like propane, etc. cause any attempt to pressurise it will cause it to re-condence.And, whatever piping you use to transport it from your vaporising vessel to the cylinder has to be heated up to around 1000 degrees F., because if it 'cools' it will re-condense.
And, lets say you manage to get it into the cylinder, on the intake stroke of the piston.Next thing is going to be the compression stroke, and guess what? All this has been fruitless, because your vapor is going to be compressed, and re-condense into a liquid.
In point of fact, an infernal combustion engine DOES vaporise gasoline; liquid fuel doesn't burn. If there weren't some vaporising going on, the engine wouldn't run.
Whether from a carburetor or fuel injection, minute drops of gasoline are squirted into a negative pressure airstream.The negative pressure and some engine heat encourages the lightest fractions to vaporise off the surface of the droplets, even as the droplet is moving thru the intake manifold, and even some of the light/medium fractions.The heaviest and light heavy fractions remain in droplets.They are sucked past the intake valve and into the cylinder, where they absorb some heat from the piston top, valves left over from the last combustion stroke.
At the completion of the intake stroke, you have a stratified charge; the heaviest fractions, those which are 'hardest' to vaporise, end up in a layer right on top of the piston.And there are progressively 'lighter' layers, as you move up the cylinder.The lightest fractions, those that will vaporise at ambient temps and with the negative pressure caused by a slight breese blowing across the surface, are in a layer right up against the top of the cylinder, where the sparkplug is.The compression stroke has the piston come up the cylinder, compressing all the layers, but, unless you introduce 'swirl' into the cylinder, these stratified layers remain. Although, the compression does cause some additional re-condensing to droplet form.
Then, the spark plug fires, and the lightest still a vapor fractions at the top of the cylinder ignite.As they burn, the heat up the droplets in the next layer down, which has the lightest fractions on the outside of the droplet 'boil off' or vaporise. As they vaporise, they ignite, in turn boiling off the heavier fractions in the interior of the droplet.As this layer ignites, it then does the same thing to the next layer, and so on.
The last layers, laying down on the top of the piston, actually ignite at the very end of the combustion stroke, and during the exhaust stroke.
Thats why if you disconnect the exhaust manifold you can see flames coming out the exhaust port.These are the fractions that are being burned in a catalyctic converter; they burn so late that they don't impart any usable energy to the piston or the engine.Part of the idea of 'swirl' is to intermix the stratified layers, so as to get usable energy from these 'heaviest' fractions.
Anyway, this is some of my understanding of the complexities involved in making an infernal combustion engine run on 'vaporised' gasoline.An ICE DOES run on vaporised gasoline, at least in part; has to.Cause liquid gasoline doesn't burn.The challenge is to make the process more efficient.But vaporising the gasoline, and then trying to get the heavier than air vapor into the cylinder, while keeping it a vapor, is an excercise in frustration, which many have tried for years.I think the more promising area involves trying to vaporise the gasoline more completely in the cylinder.
For instance, by using gapless top rings, and closing the intake valve well before BDC. By closing the intake valve early, you are reducing the amount of fuel in the intake charge, and then are subjecting that fuel to negative pressure.Gasoline vaporises with negative pressure, so it vaporises. Vaporised gasoline absorbs heat, so it 'sucks' the heat out of the valves, piston top.As the piston starts back up the cylinder, the 'extra' energy required to draw a vacuum, (once the intake valve closed on the intake stroke) is 'offset' by the vacuum which pulls the piston up, initially, on the compression stroke.The cooler cylinder means you no longer have to be concerned with 'detonation' or 'pre-ignition' which means you can have much higher compression ratio. The more tightly you cna 'pack' those stratified layers of intake charge, the more complete the ignition.I think thats what 'TheOldOne' is doing.Anyway, gota go. Jim
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  #77 (permalink)  
Old 04-01-2011, 04:29 PM
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100 mpg

In the 70s there was a 100 mpg system on a V8 in Canada. This was done by what they called "crack combustion". What it was is the same as a Coleman
gas camping stove or lantern. Gas is mixed with compressed air and fed through a fine nozzle. This should be easier to do than the heat based methods.

FRC
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  #78 (permalink)  
Old 04-01-2011, 05:44 PM
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I think some of you don't get the idea I am proposing. Forget vapor, any vapor will condense if it cools. I propose thermal cracking, this will turn gasoline or diesel into propane and butane, those are gasses and not vapors and can not condense back into liquid. If you have diesel or gasoline vapors, you still have issue with longer and smaller hydrocarbon chains where the smaller chains burn fully, but the longer chains do not. Also the vapor wont mix perfectly with air in the combustion chamber as gasses will. It will mix better than fuel droplets but not as good as pure gasses. So I propose to turn the fuel into gas, not just heat and vaporize it. If we take water for example, vaporization would mean steam that can condense back to liquid. Making it into gas would mean hydrogen and oxygen that can not turn back to liquid unless burned. A huge difference.
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  #79 (permalink)  
Old 04-01-2011, 08:13 PM
dutchdivco dutchdivco is offline
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I do get it, jetsis

My last post was directed at those who are talking about vaporising, and was describing what I had learned when I started on this road. The reason i posted about a source for economical palladium is as a catalyst, right in the combustion chamber, to 'crack' the fuel, using the haet of combustion, and palladium plated piston tops and valves, was that I did get it that you have transitioned away from vaporising gasoline, into cracking it into hydrogen and methane. Same thought process I went thru.I didn't really give much thought to using engine 'waste heat' with a catalyst, to crack it before you introduce it into the combustion chamber, thats another way to go. Jim
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  #80 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2011, 01:25 AM
Discovery101 Discovery101 is offline
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Hello

Hi im new to this tread! But I am interested in this topic very much, as I was younger My idea on the whole vaporization of gasoline was the foundation of my earlier understanding of how to get better mileage out of gasoline and extract the full potential of energy from it. Ever since I bought a car Ive been experimenting with new designs on how to make the process work on my vehicle. As some may have seen my new video I posted on YouTube I was attempting to run my car on just pure vapor from gasoline.

Here is the link here:YouTube - Fuel Bubbler Vapor Carburetor

My design was a basic Bubbler system, the same one as the Geet Bubbler design. The problem that I had with this was after a few minutes of run the engine with this, was the gasoline would get too cold, and the gasoline stopped producing vapors like it did when I first started the engine So far I haven't tried heating the gasoline up to maintain the temperature to a reasonable degree, but so with my only set up I was able to get my car running on the first 5 to 10 minutes on it before shutting down. I have had my car on the road with this set up, and have had it slowly accelerated to 25 to 30 mph, then slowly dieing down. My next design im looking on trying some stronger spark plugs to ignite such a lean mixture and may be get the water spark plug design working hand and hand with this set up, maybe better results! I was thinking that the plasma spark plug would be working on the principle of catalytic cracking and producing smaller molecules made of hydrogen gases that gives more power and effeciency?
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  #81 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2011, 03:48 AM
dutchdivco dutchdivco is offline
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others have encountered the same problem

Its that you are attempting to run your engine on the lightest fractions, and the lightest fractions also , for lack of a better way of explaining it, have the least amount of energy in them.The heavier fractions aren't drawn off, and remain in the bubbler.If you are able to run it long enough, you will end up with something remaining in the bubbler, that looks like strong coffee, and smells like crap; like 'old gas' that has been stored too long.Strong, nasty smell.This is the 'heavier, and heaviest fractions.And you need them, to burn in the cylinder.First of all, your trying to improve miles per gallon; doesn't help if your only running the car on, say,...1/3 or 1/2 the gallon, and having the rest be this crap which gums up your system and which you can't do anything with.
If you recycle this back into the tank, eventually all the gas in your tank will get crapped up with this stuff.People have run across this with bubblers, and 'wicks'.Jim
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Old 04-02-2011, 10:32 AM
dave_cahoon dave_cahoon is offline
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atomizing oil for cracking

Here is a cold way of misting filterable oil.. Attached drawing.

Heating/boiling bulk liquids is crazy. IBTDT

Another way??:
A drop by drop method will work having a bottle in a bottle and exhaust heating the space between to a temperature > than the vapor point of the OIL or what ever (all fractions) Then you can drip or inject oil, water whatever in small amounts and the heat will mist the materials. The resulting vapor pressure forces the mist out of the atomizer..

Another way??:
A Babington burner nozzle can mist unfilterable liquids in an enclosed space tho far more difficult to setup. A port in the engine at BDC can pressurize a chamber full of exhaust that can be regulated and used to drive the Babington nozzle..

The mist can then be vacuumed into and through the CRACKER using the engines natural pumping action.

Hot iron is a nice cat for busting hydroCarbons.

Here is the hydrocarbon&moisture formula
CnHm + nH2O --> nCO + (m/2+n)H2

How far the material is cracked is determined by the peak heat and the residence time at peak heat. Recombination happens in the cooler. Selectivity can be achieved. Using/selecting the ratio of residence time in the heat and quench time in the cooler and using other cats..

The hydrocarbon has H1's dangling at each link in the chain.
IMHO the very first thing that happens IN Combustion, is the H1's pop off and recombine into H2. Extremely Exothermic, then the carbon and oxygen is acted upon.

Dave
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Last edited by dave_cahoon : 04-02-2011 at 11:09 AM. Reason: spelling/grammer
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  #83 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2011, 03:51 PM
dutchdivco dutchdivco is offline
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Modifications you can make to your car for improved mileage

Discovery 101; you said
"Hi im new to this tread! But I am interested in this topic very much, as I was younger My idea on the whole vaporization of gasoline was the foundation of my earlier understanding of how to get better mileage out of gasoline and extract the full potential of energy from it."

Thought it wouldn't hurt to review some basic modifications that will improve mileage; first thing you do is adjust that big nut, that sits right behind the steering wheel.

If you have trouble finding it; sit in the drivers seat, in your normal driving position.Adjust the rear view mirror, so you are able to see your face; thats the 'nut' you need to adjust.Seriously, adjusting driving habits should be the FIRST step on your journey to improve mileage. Specific adjustments;

Move the drivers seat back as far as you can but so you can still 'floor' the gas pedal.It should be comfortable to press the gas pedal for partial throttle, but a stretch (uncomfortable but do-able) to floor it.This acts as a discouragement to 'flooring' it, while still making it possible. Notice the brake pedal is closer to the driver than the gas pedal, so this won't in any way impact your ability to hit the brakes.

Secondly, install a vacuum guage; very simple.Low vacuum = high mileage.It gives you a real time readout of how economically your driving, and 'encourages' you to drive more economically.Yes, they make a 'scan guage' (I think its called) that hooks into your computer, and tells you your mileage in real time.Costs about $150.But, if your goal is economy, why not just use a vacuum guage, costs about $20?

Get a GOOD tire guage, and use it; 80% of cars on the road are driving on underinflated tires, which significantly reduces mileage.More about this, later.

The major adjustment to that nut behind the steering wheel; adjust your driving habits; no 'jackrabbit' starts; watch the vaccum guage and accelerate from a dead stop in such a way to increase the vacuum the least.Learn by practice how to 'pulse and glide' (I think its called). Basically, it means gradual smooth acceleration to speed limit, then 'coasting'. Time yourself to the lights, so you use brakes a minimal amount.To do this, you need to be much more aware of traffic ahead of you, so as to anticipate.

Most of us, a good portion of the time, drive in 'auto pilot'; on one level, we are driving and aware of the tailights on the car ahead of us.But, with most of our brain, we're thinking about the fight we had with our girlfriend, or what our boss/co-worker said, or well,.. something else.Need to re-train your mind, so that driving becomes so interesting/engauaging (instead of boring) that you are totally focused on driving.
You know how we've all seen the idiot who, even in heavy traffic, is zipping in and out of lanes, going faster than everyone else, etc.Not saying you should drive like that, but; in order to drive like that, they are focused totally on driving; they are anticipating traffic ahead, and are not daydreaming about anything else; they are totally focused.And, they aren't 'bored' with driving, which is probably why they drive that way;` it makes it interesting.
This is the kind of focus you need, but for a different goal; you need to anticipate traffic up ahead, and traffic light sequencing, so as to avoid braking; instead using 'coasting' to slow the car.It requires 100% focus.
As a side benefit, it means you will be a safer driver; probably on average you'll be driving 5-7 mph under the speed limit, and never over.Since true economy is about $ per mile driven, no speeding tickets also improves economy.

Before you ever get in the car, plan your route; avoid left turns, and plan your route so as to avoid 'backtracking'.And, if time of arrival is important, like for work; If it takes you 1/2 hour to drive to work, and you need to be at work at 8:00 a.m., and your walking out the door at 7:30 a.m., you're already LATE.DON'T try to make up the time on the road.You should have started getting ready at least 15 minutes EARLIER.So, re-set your alarm for tomorrow.

Finally, on tire inflation; as your developing these alternative driving habits, you can consider SLIGHTLY overinflating your tires.Just 5-7 psi over the recomended amount can significantly improve mileage; and how far your car will 'coast'. It DOES reduce the traction, when braking.Go out in an empty parking lot, and try panic stops, and you will see that your vehicle will slide farther, with 'overinflated' tires.However, if you are driving ALL THEN TIME in this hyper aware manner as described above, you are not going to need to 'panic stop' cause you are A) going to be going a little slower than traffic, and B) going to be anticipating and aware of whats going on ahead of you.

For more info, google 'Hypermiling"; people have developed advanced techniques, where they have tracked their mileage, and gotten over 100mpg without making any true modifications to their cars, (Other than adjusting that big nut, that sits right behind the steering wheel). Jim
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  #84 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2011, 05:02 PM
Discovery101 Discovery101 is offline
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Thanks!

Okay dutchdivco, I get your point! but really your sarcasm is not needed. I was merly trying to be polite in coming in to this thread and didnt want to interrupt your discussions that you guys had going on. And secondly im not perfect with my designs in trying to increase mileage with this system. I get what your saying about driving habits and im aware of the hypermiles club they have on line. I personally drive slow and dont accellerate fast off the start. Im not one of those persons who drive in a rush to go nowhere. Now for the reason I wanted to get my point out with making this video was that hopefully I will learn of others and my own experience of this work to make a vehicle run off vapors. seriously we are all in this tread to try and figure out how to get better mileage!
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Old 04-02-2011, 07:52 PM
dutchdivco dutchdivco is offline
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Nothing personal

its just my sense of humor; when I was talking about the 'Big nut, sitting just behind the wheel' I meant US, not just you.And, I feel anytime we're talking about fuel economy, its not a bad time for us all to remember the significant savings that can be achieved thru modifying driving habits. Its just one of those things that bears repeating, and reminding, for all of us 'big nuts'.
There is lots of good info out there; things people have tried, and why it didn't work, things people are doing, which has improved their mileage, etc.
I do feel, based on what I've read, that jetsis is on the right track; the attraction of vaporising gasoline has lured many an experimenter, but, for the reasons discussed hasn't truly yielded a working, repeatably and relible system.And, most the systems I've heard about do sound an awful lot like a rolling bomb, particularly in the case of a car accident.
On the other hand, catalycticly cracking the fuel, into methane and hydrogen is done every time you run your car long enough to warm up; thats whats happening in the catalyctic converter in the exhaust.
The basics are fairly straightforward, and the info is 'out there'; heat, over 1000 degrees F., a catalyst, and any petroleum type fuel; Butane, propane, gasoline, diesel, kerosene, doesn't matter.The plastic to fuel that jetsis is working on should work fine.
One challenge I see, from what i understand; when you expose such a fuel to a catalyst, at that temperature, it not only 'cracks' the fuel, it also ignites it; there is no 'spark plug' or similar ignition device in a catalyctic converter.
Something I read about, that helped me to grasp this, is a science demonstration.Need a piece of ceramic 'mesh' catalyst material, from a catayctic converter, and a propane or butane torch.
Light the torch, adjust the flame, then play it steadily on one area of the catayctic material, until it begins to glow.Then, turn the torch aside, and extinguish it.Then, open up the valve but DON'T lite it.Quickly begin to direct the gas stream at the same place on the catalyctic material; beyond the material, (that is, on the side opposite where the torch is) you will be able to detect a flame, and no smell of unburned gas.The explanation that I got was that the catalyctic process not only converts the gas to methane and hydrogen, but also ignites it.Coarse, this doesn't happen unless there is oxygen present.So, thats why you would either need to do it IN the combustion chamber, as i have been contemplating, or do it in an anerobic way, as I presume jetsis is contemplating.Jim
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  #86 (permalink)  
Old 04-03-2011, 12:50 AM
dave_cahoon dave_cahoon is offline
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Catalytic Incinerator

An automotive catalytic converter is NOT a converter,, its a combustor or better an incinerator. The air injection pump supply the extra air to finish burning the gasoline you paid for. Running propane or syntgas the combustors wont even fire up. Nothing left to get a good reaction going and that speaks volumes for using gasses in an ICE.

Dave
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  #87 (permalink)  
Old 04-03-2011, 01:20 AM
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FRC FRC is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dave_cahoon View Post
An automotive catalytic converter is NOT a converter,, its a combustor or better an incinerator. The air injection pump supply the extra air to finish burning the gasoline you paid for. Running propane or syntgas the combustors wont even fire up. Nothing left to get a good reaction going and that speaks volumes for using gasses in an ICE.

Dave
I do not understand what you are saying.When I had a 91 Caprice converted to propane in 94, they did not take out the catalytic converter. It still ran on straight propane for some time before it plugged up and had to be removed and replaced by a straight pipe.

FRC
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Old 04-03-2011, 05:16 AM
dave_cahoon dave_cahoon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FRC View Post
I do not understand what you are saying.When I had a 91 Caprice converted to propane in 94, they did not take out the catalytic converter. It still ran on straight propane for some time before it plugged up and had to be removed and replaced by a straight pipe.

FRC
At the time of conversion:
Did they remove the AIR injection pump?
Did they remove the gasoline tank?

Was the car dual fueled (could you switch back to gasoline if you wanted to?)

Was the a/f ratio rich on propane, leaving fuel in the exhaust?

If the incinerator (cat) was not firing correctly it will eventually plug up.
Was the car using oil?. Motor oil in a cold cat will plug it sooner.

I too, have done many Propane conversions. It takes awhile to De-gasoline an engine, to the point that the oil lasts and remains clean.

Find a cat car running gas and another cat car running propane measure and compare the cat temps.

Lots of variables in play. You might want to google single fuel propane conversions.

Dave
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Old 04-03-2011, 05:54 AM
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FRC FRC is offline
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As i said straight propane no gas. Gas tank was removed and it never burned oil. Don't know
about the air pump. Was a very good car that lasted a lot of years and a lot of miles.

FRC

Last edited by FRC : 04-03-2011 at 05:59 AM. Reason: more info
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Old 04-03-2011, 06:05 AM
dave_cahoon dave_cahoon is offline
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After burning in an ICE, Propane exhaust does not have energy content to fire up a catalytic converter. Its really simple. Even running rich. It would have to be so rich that the F/A ratio would not run the engine.

Regarding the clogged CAT Google is your friend. Single fuel conversions don't require a cat. The installer saved you the cost of replacing the cats with pipe at the time of conversion. Then they clogged up with soot and wet.

Dave
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