No misdirection allowed, your circuit and my circuit are not the same.

YOUR capacitor is in parallel with the CSET. How is that different from mine?

One of your capacitors has the POSITIVE on the diode CATHODE at the LV rod position.

Gray's circuits show no such thing and mine show no such thing.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

My power supplies are rectified to produce 100% DC.

Your power supply shows only DC through the one diode and elsewhere it is AC.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Your power supply output is PHYSICALLY connected to the LV rod.

My power supply is only connected to the LV rod when the HV rod
jumps the GAP towards the LV rod, otherwise, the LV rod is only connected by common ground.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

You can point to the CONCEPT of a capacitor in parallel with the tube
but that doesn't mean anything.

An AMC Gremlin and a Toyota Prius both have a windshield, 4 wheels,
steering wheel and a transmission but this doesn't address the fact that their operation is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

You say you have already said your circuit is unlike Gray's. But mine is
a mirror image of Gray's, so therefore, yours is unlike mine.

Hi folks, Aaron, please cant you see that electrotek is trying to stall and delay progress in this thread. Move on.
peace love light

Dear Arron,

The history behind the CEST is really weak. The original device was developed in the 1971 to 1973 time frame. The patent didn't arrive till 1986, a 13 year differance. In 1986 Gray was fully engaged in making bogus equipment to produce film demonstrations and printing "Concept Technology" proposals to sell off shore. He was in sore need of working equipment and documentation to validate his asking price.

According to the technician who was building all the demonstration carts and popping coils at the time states: "Gray didn't even know Ohms Law". I have not found any evidence to dispute this claim. Even Mr. Gray's son Dr. James Gray (who holds a PhD in Mechanical Engineering) says his father never did learn anything aobut electronics and only bantered around the lingo he heard from others.

So, it is hard for me to see how Mr. Gray could have put any of his own technical thought into the 1986 patent. If Mr. Gray were with us today he probably wouldn't have a clue as to what a majority of those components did or were intended to do. I'm sure he had a set of notes, not unlike what John Bedini disclosed, to help him come up with something novel that he could sell for $10 million+ and let the buyer figure out the finer details. (like how it really worked)

The same technician also claims that all the power supplies displayed in the 1986 promotion video are "Gray's Junk".

I believe that the 1986 patent is a shadow of the 1972 device that was important and probably worked, and worked well. The Bedini Notes are probably more accurate, but still lacking detail since they were drawn up after the acual visit(s). I consider both sechematics as being partial and containing some errors. (maybe even a lot of errors)

So, attempting to discuss why Gray did this or included that, is to me, a moot point. He knew that the capacitor stored the energy and that the shunt diode was necessary to pop coils but most likly he didn't know why. You can review the 4th E.V. Gray British patent and get a better idea as to what his limited understanding was of these basic components.

The only way we are going to solve this mystery is by hard experimentation and taking the surviving documents with a huge grain of salt. For now anybodies theories are good. It will be the actual performance that will seperate the interesting speculation from the true working non-classical physics.

Spokane1

The capacitor is Parallel to the CSET.



Next: Part 2, Three Point Discharge (arc is at end of grid, rather than inside grid.)

Aaron: I'm surprised you haven't drawn up a big graphics display of "Why Volland's Patent Isn't Like Gray's". Of course, I filed my patent in '79, eight years before Gray's came out. And I use a tuning circuit, rather than his chopper. So mine only works up to around 10^18 Hz. But that's not really Hz, since the energy is an electrostatic longitudinal field, which has different properties than EM. But is does take the heat out of electricity and reports are OU in some cases.

Still, I show that the Grid can be connected to the load. And it does match Tesla's high frequency concept patent.

Skywatcher,

You're right. Maybe a paid detractor or just incredibly jealous and he wonders when I'll show a comparison of his circuit to Gray's.

Anyway, I'll post details on this later
YouTube - Aaron's Green Plasma Motor in the Dark
It was a fun experiment.

Hi Guy's
Here is my new circuit

Marcoz.

Attached Images

Sch4.png (10.5 KB, 57 views)

What We Now Know Part 3

The Diode T-tap Voltage Doubler. What IS that wire I'm bringing to the grid in the video?

http://img531.imageshack.us/img531/4...3419314ob8.flv


By inertiatek at 2009-04-19

Copyrighted by whoever wants to put the name of Insolence on my work.

Aaron: Honesty is the Purity of my Truth. I will not tolerate your defamation of my Integrity yesterday, after I made an issue of it. There is nothing more I will ever say to you.

No one here has fully replicated Gray's circuit and demonstrated the solution to our energy crisis and until that moment comes there is no RIGHT or WRONG. This forum is about working together, so if that spirit is to be maintained then at least some tolerance should be exhibited.

There's no point in arguing theory when only results matter. The ones that don't work will naturally fall by the wayside in time.

I agree, and I haven't argued theory, except to point out to Aaron that potentials he referred to don't collide. This communication is reflected in his latest message including this concept, since he now says "the potentials join and move to a common ground".

I've invested a tremendous amount of time on this forum, presenting my experiments and findings. If someone copies and CLAIMS my work, how will this fall by the wayside if the work turns out to be correct? And how can he copy my work and give EVERYONE permission to use it? Is that theft of Intellectual Property?

And why is he ATTACKING my character so endlessly, when all I'm doing is defending my copyright, as required by law. A copyright which represents MY work.

Hallo
Stop that, that is real absurd, If u dont wana share your knowledge with others dont go here. If one was first or other who cares ?
Dont write your waste here - go to another forum for example two childred on sand-pit. This is infantility...
Antena

This thread is about the Gray tube.

It is not about who owns what.
This is also a place where people share their work.
If sombody modifys a circuit it is called improvement, or at least is conciderd to be.
That has got nothing to do with plagiarism in the first place.

Why are you even here??? ?

If you don't want somebody to use your so called "work" then don't post it.
If you did not publish it in the first place,this would not have happend.
Don't post something and then go behave yourself like this when somebody modiefies it, or has something that looks the same.

You are seriously disturbing the ambiance here.
Please stop it.

Marcoz.

thanks for my prev que??

thank you spokeane1

i want to ask what wire size should i use in the motor

and how many turns

i decide 30 ga and 1200 turns

please help me

one more think

i brought one book from vangaurdsciense.com

it is big size how can i send this in our thread

@all Bill Beaty wrote this here: 4hv.org: Forums / High Voltage / "Runaway breakdown" for creating *really* long sparks What do u think?

Sparks leap between electrodes because of progressive ionization of the air. Once gas-breakdown has been triggered, the plasma contributes bare electrons via avalanche, and also creates UV radiation, both of which ionize the next bit of air into spark-stuff.

But there is a second little-known kind of spark. While in 1-atm air, electrons normally have very short trajectories, and can travel a cm or two before being halted. However, if electrons should travel across a voltage drop of approximately 1MV or larger, they suddenly are able to travel a hundred times further in air. At kinetic energy of around 1MeV or higher, electrons go relativistic (travelling at nearly the speed of light) and the collision rules are different. The air seems more transparent.

If such "fast electrons" should travel through an electric field, they gain far more energy than normal electrons would, since normal electrons experience far more 'air friction' via multiple collisions with air molecules. In other words, the fast electrons think that our air pressure is 0.01 atmosphere, and they behave more like a particle beam rather than an outbreak of fractal spark-plasma. With 100x less 'friction,' fast electrons are easily accelerated by fairly weak e-fields.

In addition, if they strike air molecules, fast electrons can create more fast electrons. This opens up the possibility of a different kind of spark, a spark based on an outbreak of a different kind of electron-avalance. Physicists refer to this by several names:

Runaway breakdown
Electron runaway
Runaway electrons

Also see , and the short wikipedia entry I wrote on this.

This bit of physics is increasingly in the news because it may explain some of the continuing mysteries of lightning. Lightning is not a conventional spark, since it occurs at far too low a voltage. But if cosmic background radiation (the geiger counter clicks) can easily supply a tiny amount of fast electrons, an immensely long spark might form via runaway breakdown rather than the usual UV and avalanche ionization. And this spark might grow despite a very weak environmental e-field present in storm clouds. Or said differently: because cosmic rays are present, lightning in a storm would strike at much higher frequency because the e-fields would not have to grow very large before a spark appeared to short them out again.

Splitting the Positive:

To be discontinued.

Hi all,

I found an interesting article about a.o. sparks and arcs:

Frolov on resonant tuning and the Avramenko plug


Anyone have any idea what he could mean with "spires"????

That Avramenko plug appears to be interesting too, BTW.

More by Frolov at:
work of potential field to get the power in load

[quote=BASHydro;58918]@all Bill Beaty wrote this here: 4hv.org: Forums / High Voltage / "Runaway breakdown" for creating *really* long sparks What do u think?

But there is a second little-known kind of spark. While in 1-atm air, electrons normally have very short trajectories, and can travel a cm or two before being halted. However, if electrons should travel across a voltage drop of approximately 1MV or larger, they suddenly are able to travel a hundred times further in air. At kinetic energy of around 1MeV or higher, electrons go relativistic (travelling at nearly the speed of light) and the collision rules are different. The air seems more transparent.

If such "fast electrons" should travel through an electric field, they gain far more energy than normal electrons would, since normal electrons experience far more 'air friction' via multiple collisions with air molecules. In other words, the fast electrons think that our air pressure is 0.01 atmosphere, and they behave more like a particle beam rather than an outbreak of fractal spark-plasma. With 100x less 'friction,' fast electrons are easily accelerated by fairly weak e-fields.

In addition, if they strike air molecules, fast electrons can create more fast electrons. This opens up the possibility of a different kind of spark, a spark based on an outbreak of a different kind of electron-avalance. Physicists refer to this by several names:

Runaway breakdown
Electron runaway
Runaway electrons

Dear BASHyrdo

These kinds of ideas are interesting and a lot more can be found in a multiude of of very well written volumes on Plasma and Spark physics.

In the E.V.Gray (Marvin Cole) technology we has some important energy limitations to consider. The unit power supply that is the foundation of all this magic has an energy rating of between 30-50 Watts. This is limited by the mechanical chopoper that was used (electromechanical vibrator) and the ignition coil as well.

The voltage levels (up to 6KV) and the size of the storage capacitor (up to 12 uF) give us around 150 Joules to work with. In my study of exotic arcs, that can be created as you describe, it takes potentials in excess of 20 KV and more often in the 100 KV range. Under these conditions all kinds of wired stuff happens (i.e. syncrotron and direct x-ray radiation). That is why the military has funded this kind of expensive research for years.

When I review classical discharge physics I always check to see if thier area of operation is within the parameters of the Gray technology. I find a lot of it isn't. It is either to high a voltage, to large of a pulse current, or to fast of a time rise. But the ideas are still important to keep in mind. A lot of this kind of research is done in a vacuum chamber.

Dr. Tesla was able to get his Table Top Oscillators to yield sheets of streames with only 25 watts of input (thus suggesting an OU process), yet no one has been able to reproduce that demonstration (1896). Some how Dr. Tesla, Marvin Cole and possibly Henry Moray were able to work wonders with a very small input.

Keep reading. If some of what your are exploring can be done with the output of an automotive ignition coil and common components - then I'm interested in what you find.

Spokane1

Marcoz,

WOW. What a great circuit. I can't believe you came up with it! Its so original and meaningful!! Those variable capacitors just make all the difference in the World. I am dying of envy.

How did you do it? What is the secret to your bursts of genius? You must drink Carrot Juice, or something.



Peter

Dear Forum Members,

Would anyone care to review the attached scope trace and offer their professional HV experiance as what I'm looking at???

This is the voltage and pulse current across the 4 uF 8KV storage capacitor in a 95% replication of the Ghst circuit.

The current pulse is trace #2. It is the sharp 4 uS pulse on the right side taken with a Pearson Model 110 Wide Band Current Transformer. The sensing conductor has been been divided into three parts to extend the range of the transformer. The aproximate vertical scale is now 150 Amps/division. Since the full wave form is cut off I guess the peak is around 1500 Amps. This is what I would expect to see for a discharge of this type with very little inductance. There is some inductance because the sweep does go negative for a little while.

It is the voltage response that has me puzzled. This is trace #1. The trace is inverted so that the ground doesn't bleed off charge from the capacitor. I'm using a 100 Meg LeCroy 6KV resistor type HV probe. The vertical scale is 1 KV/ division. The attached 6KV Electroscope (additional measurement) reports a voltage of 5 KV while the initial voltage on the scope is 5.5 KV.


The question is:

Why doesn't the voltage drop to near zero in persuit of the current? But, as you can see it hardly changes during the current pulse. It follows an RC expoential decay that lasts about 200 uS compared to the 4 uS duration of the current pulse. I know certain kinds of capacitors are slow to yield their fund of energy but that should impact the rate of the current discharge as well. Since the current pulse is through a spark gap, with switching times on the order of 10 nS, then once the arc opens up what ever charge left in the capacitor should stay there. But that is not what I see. There appears to be a whole lot of voltage left in the capacitor long after 99% of the classical current has left.

The storage capacitor is composed of two 4uF 4KV paper-oil can capacitors that come from the 50's. They are about the size of a half gallon of milk. They are connected in series and each one is shunted by a 66 Meg 6KV resistor to act as a voltage equalizer / bleeder.

I have made pulse current measurements for years, but I have not had the probe to measure the voltage at the same time. Perhaps I would have seen this long ago and learned what is going on. But I call upon your experiance to speed up the learning curve here.

Perhaps I have a measurement error in this setup.

Any technical comments would be appreciated.

Spokane1

Attached Images

Pulse Curent - Voltage.jpg (56.9 KB, 15 views)

Dear Mr. pranav2010,

The GD photos from 1974 show that the Major and Minor electromagnets of the EMA4-E2 motor are wound with about #24 AWG copper magnet wire. We can't determine the number of turns because we have no idea as to what the cross section of the core is. So, your guess is as good as any.

The recovered EMA4 and EMA5 motors that now belong to Al Francouer of Canada were wound with #14 AWG copper magnet wire. This was a retrofit job done in 1980 by a Mr. Nelson Schlaft. These were not the original windings. According to Mr. Schlaft the original wire was much smaller and it was potted in a light brown "gunky" material. Mr. Schlaft didn't repot the windings in anything. This work was contracted out to a machine shop in Canyon County, CA (NE of LA)

I suspect that #30 AWG is a little small, but go with what feels best. You can always change as you get some experimental data.

I can't help you with methods to up load a book. That is outside of my skill set.

Spokane1

Hey men i am using variable capacitors all the time to fine tune the tube.
Especially those in the picture below work well.
Exept for when there is some dust between the plates, then it produces a violent spark and a loud bang

Marcoz.

Attached Images

ja01-053.jpg (108.1 KB, 41 views)

Hi Marcoz,
I think Peter was being sarcastic...

On another subject, I think the argument between Electrotek and Aaron is the evidence of something really important being discovered here, and obviously the "inventor" is just trying to keep his name in the books for posterity.
So please guys, don't let a different between you two deprive us, and the rest of the world, from capital information. Every little bit counts and you are the 2 main contributors of advanced circuits. Anyway, you're already fighting against much more formidable foes than each other, in tring to bring this to the world.

Electrotek, please consider continuing posting you series.
As they say, if you don't like a person in the crowd, play for just the rest of the crowd.

Dear Mr. Marcoz,

Nice collection of variable air capacitors you have there.

In working with that kind of component, how high of an applied voltage can you work with before you have a breakdown between the plates? I was under the impression that close spacing like that was limited to about 500V. I have seen larger transmitter variable capacitors that have about 0.500" between the plates and they are said to handle up to 5KV. I know that my variable vacuum capacitors only go to 10 KV and thye are usless when attempting to directly tune the parisitic tank capacitance in the secondary of an ignition coil.

I understand that plate capacitors have a very low capacitance value - say on the order of 200 pF per section. This means that you can't get very much total capacitance using such a device. Maybe you have come across a topology and/or method that doesn't need a significant amount of capacitance - if so so much the better.

Are you able to get results with a variable capacitor in the location where you show your main storage capacitor?, or do you have a fixed capacitor in shunt with it and then use the variable capacitor for fine tuning? Even then a variable capacitor is 4 orders of magnitude smaller than the typical value of storage capacitor found in the Gray/Cole technology (5-12 uF). I hope our window of operation is not so small that a .001% change would make the differance between classical and non-classical operation.

Most interesting component variation. I would like to see how one of those uints function in your particular proposed Gray/Cole circuit. A trace of the voltage-current relationship during discharge would be very instructive.

Spokane1

Hello Spokane

Well Yes you are correct about the voltage.
I have had 500 Volts on them but then they flash between plates every now and then.

But these are not my main storage capacitors.
The storage capacitors i use are in the picture below
Also on the other picture you can see the High Voltage Oil Transformers that i use, besides ignition coils and flybacks.

Marcoz.

PS: I did some testing earlier today and ive made a small video
Here it is: http://universalpower.webs.com/grayc...ancetest1.divx

Attached Images

	1544_Maxwell_HSP_capacitor_32uF-5,5Kv.jpg (70.1 KB, 22 views)
	HVxfrmrs.jpg (39.6 KB, 23 views)

Any more of those Maxwell 5KV capacitors avaliable at a resonable price?

Spokane1

Hello Spokane

I got those capacitors from some dump shop.
The guy only had 3 and i took them all 3.( i needed 3 )
Prize was 25 euro each so i don't know if it's expensive but i took them anyway.
You can find High Voltage capacitors if you look for it...

Marcoz.

Utilizing the concepts of the Gray Tube, phenomenal power can be had with only a 2uf capacitor. I would really encourage experimenters to not go overboard with the size of the caps because the capacitance isn't where it's at according to my tests.