Please remember that I have "NOT" claimed to have reproduced Greys Power Conversion Tube. I am only conducting experiments to try to replicate, what Grey did and how he did it. That said, would you believe that its hard to replicate a capacitor discharge motor without charging a capacitor? I could have spent countless hours trying to repel two coils from each other without the capacitor, but, well after all it is a capacitor discharge motor. You should try, hooking the ignition coil straight to the capacitor. I,ll tell you what will happen. Most likely you will puncture the cap, and if you connect two coils to the cap and try to discharge, the HV will just course through the cap and through the coils, most likely burning the coils if they are not prepared well. Might I say, that it takes a large amount of power to launch a coil as I did. But, the coils themselves do not consume much, if any of the energy, that instantly surges through the coils, magnitizing them, causing the repulsion. Most of the discharge energy will go to the tube creating a bright flash of plasma. You have to agree, that it takes magnetizing the coils to produce the repelling force as I have demonstrated. Now, its well known that the collapsing field in the coils will produce a Back Spike, if you will, that is equal to the energy that created the original field. So now I have most or all the energy used to repel the coils going into the tube, plus a large spike from the collapsing field of the coils. I'm still a long way from Grey's system, but I think I'm gaining in knowledge on how his system worked.

Ghst You have done excellent for a start. But at some time you have to start going in the direction of Gray and find out why his tube worked the way it did. You have a tube cap and coils just like Gray did. The only thing you don't have is the frequency he used and the carbon<-device Gray used. The reason it probably didn't work is that Gray knew something about resonance and it triggering an event that gave much more out then in. The R is very important and as we all know when you add it in that it would change the way the tube operated both in frequency and spacing.
Once you have a system that can resonate it should be very easy to command it to produce the event at will much like Gray did. How many times a second would you need a cap to charge then discharge to run a motor? even with a cap on every coil set you would still need to charge, discharge way to many times per second with your setup. Gray was definetly using another form of electricity to safely carge discharge a large cap in less time without blowing it up. You have a close simulation but it isn't quite there. Don't let my comments disuade you from experimenting but it wont get you anywhere unless you try to reproduce the effect, witch I think has more to do with resonance of the whole circuit and not just one piece of the circuit. having all the pieces and tunning your circuit to operate with resonance should get you to where you want to be and even with smaller coils I bet you could launch them thru your ceiling without even trying to do that.

Hallo
I tryed my tube and I got red event. Aaron had green event, Ghst white and I got red. It is possible ? I used about 6,5kV, then my capacitors destoryed including diodes )) I have to buy some good new one...
Have fun
Antena

All is fine, i just posted what i believe is happening.
As you might know any type of back flow is unwanted it the tube itself.
This is because it will produce oscillation, which in turns leaks energy by capacitive means, to the grid, not good.
Simply said, this transferres hot electricity to the grids, something you dont want bacuse a 5000 volt discharge can hurt a lot, if it not proves to be deadly.
So the blast has to be in one direction only, but you are correct the inductive kickback is routed into another cap or battery for overall system performance and effeciency.

I still do not understand your side electrode and the visible sparks.
Ignition coils are not good at the production of high voltage DC.
Possibly you have high voltage on all electrodes due to the capacitive effect i just mentioned above.

I am also working on my tube and i am planning to do a high voltage noise test.
This is to see if there will be any sparks from the center anode to the grid when fed serious power.
If so it means the electrodes are too close to each other and i have to space them some more.

Anyway here's a pic:

Marcoz

Attached Images

PICT0028.JPG (733.3 KB, 30 views)

Bigness5, Thats great! I guess I should stop where I'm at and wait till someone shows me what to do next.

Antena, glad you got a discharge! Building the devices by your self and actually having it to discharge or produce any event at all is very encouraging and satisfying isn't it? Once you experience this, its hard to stop. Have fun, above all be safe!

Hi Buddy. Sorry I haven't been posting lately, but I've been tied up with my mechanical project. And I have been watching the forum every day.

Glad to see all the great progress you've been making! Looks like you're getting close. If your discharge isn't diminishing that means you should be able to transfer the energy to another cap. Sort of like Gray said he was doing, bouncing the energy from one cap to another.

Here's a picture I've been thinking about for some time:



Yfrog - croppedgray027bhu0.jpg - Uploaded by Inertiatek

As short as each CSET is, the length must be related to the pulse duration. So, for more energy the grids would need to be thicker, or more of them, rather than longer. With this in mind, I took a Tube I made back in '02 and cut it down, thinking I'll use the shorter piece:



Yfrog - phot094.jpg - Uploaded by Inertiatek

The other thing I was thinking is that Gray's Tube looks like it's set up for a multi gap discharge on the end, since the grids are close together and there's dielectric at key places. After working with my Gradient Plate this is the first thing I thought of when I saw his picture.

The grids in my Tube aren't so close together so I'll try putting chunks of Gradient Plates where he has the dielectric. With my Plate, I also found out that rather than have one electrode on each end, I can put both electrodes on the same end and the Puff Spark will be pulled along the surface of the Plate, as long as the capacitor is connected to another electrode on the far end, with this wire connected - through a resister - to one of the main arc electrodes at the starting end.

So I'll put the spark gap just outside the end of the grids. The cap will connect to the outer grid and also to a chunk of carbon or a piece of nichrome wire going to the electrode farthest from the grids. Then, if the Puff Spark goes out along the end of the grids, the grids may act like a Venetian Blind plasma energy extractor.

Like I said, I'm pretty much tied up right now, so it may be a few days before I can do a test. But that's what I'm working towards.

hey you know what I'll stop then because you don't seem to take any advice without thinking that someone is telling you to not do what you are doing. Thats ok I'll go else where and help other people then. Good luck....

Oh don't go away mad. I can take advise very well. But you have to know from proven experience before it is advise, Other wise it is just speculation. And I have done a lot of speculation myself, No way to prove ones own thoughts until they are tried and either fail or proven fact. When proven fact then one can advise. I stated earlier that I have used the carbon, as Grey did. I am still using carbon as the LV rod. I haven't, in my test. seen carbon to be a influencing factor in the discharge or have it to create the electron cascade that the tube is susposed to produce. I have noticed in my own tests the addition of the carbon on the LV electrode allows you the ablity to increase the discharge time and to decrease it.(to a extent) As for resonance, these are only tests and it will be difficult to setup a resonance circuit what with the single coil setup as my demonstration. Heck I can't let the system top off the cap because it isn't self aligning. These are single shot firings and the cap is being charged from 0 V in each of the vids. (I carefully discharge the remaining voltage after each firing, before attempting to reset the coils.) If you can resonate the circuit then by all means go for it. I just ain't there yet.

Rave154, Here is a descriptive picture of "the Jar" I hope this helps.
http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/9924/thejar.jpg

Ghst I applaude your effort but this is exactly what you told us "Please remember that I have "NOT" claimed to have reproduced Greys Power Conversion Tube. I am only conducting experiments to try to replicate, what Grey did and how he did it."
Unfortunately you cannot try to replicate Grays proceedure without actually using the tube he used under the cicuit he used. That would be like trying to replicate making a nuclear bomb by only looking at pictures of said bomb. Don't get me wrong I think you have gone in the right direction But maybe took a left when you should have stayed with it. when you loose components because they don't make sense to you or the effect isn't apparent then you loose the capability to replicate the end result.
You were the one who got mad I just won't try to help you get back on track if you say things like "Bigness5, Thats great! I guess I should stop where I'm at and wait till someone shows me what to do next." And then act like I'm the one mad. Like I said good luck in your Gray tube like device but it is not the gray tube at all and that is plainly true. Why post in the Gray tube replication post if you are not trying to replicate the tube? By the way what do you think an lcr cicuit like you have is for? This isn't a guess from me it is a resonant cicuit plain and simple. How does one resonate the circuit maybe you should do some research and find out how. I'll point you in the right direction frequency has a lot to do with it.
I won't bother posting here again since you obviosly are not trying to replicate the tube, only on looks. Yes your tube looks simular but thats where the simularities stop.
Why are you posting in this forum if you are not trying to get input from others then? Why not just you tube the videos and just do what you are doing? Why involve others.
I have a post about the whole system Gray was using and explains about resonance and that system.
Resonance and current motor designs.
There is a link to RE and OU theory and also about the rotoverter. In the begining of the pdf is a good bit about Gray and his ema motor and what the theory is behind all that. It might help you to understand what I have been trying to tell you. Then again maybe you won't but I throw it up there in any case.

If you download Ghst's vid and do a frame by frame in a good program, you'll see the blast has the green color.

Ghst,

What you have done is 100% identical in concept to what I have showed over and over. Congratulations but it appears nobody is able to recognize this fact and you never responded to me in this thread in my responses to you in the past about what you were trying to do.

I gave the parameters required for the effect and you are sticking to it even if you have your cap charged through the LV rod. It doesn't matter.

To get what you showed, you don't even need the tube and you don't need the grids, you only need 3 simple points spaced as you described, which is what I have also described multiple times. With the tube, it may or may not be stronger but is certainly not required to do it.

If you want to see what your cap is really doing, you must scope the discharge time. That will tell you everything you need to know.

You may think you need magnetizing "current" to charge those coils but keep in mind, there is more than one type of current that can charge a coil with a magnetic field. One is hot and one is cold. One is "electron" current and one is a pure magnetic current.

If you look at a scope shot, you'll know what you have.

Thanks for telling me how you want me to conduct my experiments. But I think I will do my thing, my own way, at my own pace. Its pretty simple, show me proof of any tube build that you are currently on, that is any where near my progress, or shutup. I don't need or want your advice. If you have the perfect system then my work is done here. Put up or shutup.

This is the correct way to discover new things.
Don't let anyone distract you or tell you what to do.

It is also the only way to develope a certain "skill" in doing what you do and you will notice you are getting better, and better too
Eventually you will make it more perfect, good looking, and more effecient.

I have seen alot of theory's about the Gray tube and there was not a single one that fitted my own view on this device.
They all presented some sort of "this is how it works" and "that is how it works" but none of them seem to be correct.

Tesla used the brute force methode where he discharged a bank of high voltage capacitors into two turns of big wire, and according to Tesla, these radiations came out of the wire perpendiculair to the flow, on the edge of vaporizing the wire.

Gray on the other hand did not use the brute force methode, he created a delicate environment, and invited the effect to happen.
Thats a whole diffrent story...but concerning the same effect.
Gray's device looks more like a fine tuned machine compared to Tesla's brute force methode, although Tesla eventually found how to use beter ways to control his discharges.
Pherhaps this is also the reason why so many people have limited sucess, they are all using the brute force methode, because they simply do not know how to create this delicate environment Gray used.

In a normal vacuum tube, electrons are boiled off the hot cathode similar to water molecules escaping from boiling water.
This creates what is called the "electron cloud" and it is what makes the tube work, the electron flow can be controlled by a small voltage on the grid and the electrons are accellerated by the high voltage charge on the plate.

In essence, there is a steam (pressure) analogy, but in the capacitor discharge action it is cold and far more violent then on a normal neutral hot cathode in a vacuum tube.
When ultra high speed electrons hit a metal surface, their impact causes the metal to release even more electrons, this is called secondary emission.
When extreme voltages are used (+40Kv and up) it will also give rise to X-rays and other phenomena, and this is what Philco Farnsworth discoverd in his cold cathode multipactor tubes which led him to develope his fusor.

Anyway, back to the ultra fast electron impact,
When this happens, at this exact moment due to the secondary emission, for a fraction of a second, the metal's charge differs from the environmental charge, the charge all things are sitting in and are charged to, and nature will restore the balance by equalizing the charges again.
Basically it will just fill up the hole again, so yes we create a so called "sink" in nature's energy reservoir, And then we hit it again and again....
If you have studied Tesla's work this is what he describes what happens when the body is struck and it will either charge up(more positive), or give up it's charge (more negative) with respect to the environmental potential.(even Tesla wasn't really sure if it was positive or negative).

I do not want to make this post too long, so more to come...

Marcoz.

All I was doing was pointing you in the direction you should be going because you are of course in the Gray tube thread. I gave you the link, use it or not but I think you need to know whats going on behind the sceens which obviously you choose to stay uninformed about. So be it. But I would suggest if you have no plans to replicate the tube as did Gray you should back out of the Gray tube replication thread and make your own thread that has nothing to do with his system. As for put up or shut up. I'll take the shut up because you are not trying to do a Gray tube replication as you said.
Mr Gray knew way more then anyone else that his system was in fact a resonate system. The proof comes from the fact that he could channel way more energy in his system then you could generate from that cap of yours.
I am sorry that instead of being an experimentor and trying what others suggest you instead are doing "Your" own thing. Then like I said why do you need to be here then. Just experiment on your own terms and not report here what you have done because you don't post here to get any feed back at all. Rather you post here to say "See" this is not what the thread title is about, just my own take of something I noticed that I can't explain. Use Youtube my friend, why do you need us? Maybe we should just clap for you when you post and not say a word.
Like I said Good luck in whatever you are doing it is definetely not what Gray was doing.

Dear Jbignes5,

Resonance involves oscillation, and this we do not want in a straight one way DC discharge, like the one that is happening in the Gray tube.
In fact, any oscillation should be avoided, as it destroyes the entire effect.
There are two things that destroy the effect, one is oscillation, and the other is capacity.
As you might know, these two go hand in hand, capacitance allows oscillation to pass, and then it wont be a one way discharge anymore.

This problem is also seen in gas filled tubes where oscillation pre-ionizes the gas ,leaking energy and causing the tube to mis fire...
It makes the discharge instable and dirty.

All oscillations and capacity should therefore be avoided so it is indeed a quick one- way clean discharge.

But offcource i cannot tell anybody what to do, or how to do it, all i know is if they really want it, they will find out eventually, mostly by trial and error....

Marcoz.

Pulsing is a frequency and so is the chopper that he employs. Weather it is a square wave or sinual, either all + or all - it is all frequency. You are moving from one potential to another causing an ocillation that is time based. Try to have a look at the link I posted and give the observation that this guy had about experiments that have been already replicated a chance to disuade any thought about what is going on. It shows that every circuit that has an inductor, capacitor and resistor is a resonate circuit and that is properly matched it will humm even scream. The scream is the resonance of the transformer. But I digress. Give the pdf a look and it will tell the tale. Whats the harm.
If not then like I said I'll just shut up. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make em drink.

I have seen the document you mention a few times in the past, and i have also some friends who support the reactive power theory, the standing wave node and anti node theory, but they were unable to do sucessfull testing in this area for over twenty years.

The chopper Gray used was only a means to charge the high voltage capacitor.
This was an alternative to places where no direct high voltage was available, for example like in the portable units.
The system itself, the tube, was according to some documents ,firing app. 5000 times a second and these were straight one way high voltage DC discharges.
This system only works with one way discharges, if the reverse blocking mechanism is not working properly, the system will not function.
Pulsing is a frequency, but it does not nessesarily involve resonance.
Resonance is a property of a body to vibrate at it's greatest amplitude, given the least energy feedback to sustain this oscillation.
I have never seen a resonant circuit oscillate indefenetly, without energy input.
You will always have to put in a tiny amount of energy to keep it going.
When you stop feeding energy, it will stop oscillating.

Marcoz.

I already have that pdf saved on my computer, along with the theories of countless others.The thing is if these theories were correct, then one of the countless persons working on this device would have already had a successful replication."Theory", is the same thing as "Speculating", which is another way of saying "I think". If a Theory is proven then its no longer a Theory, but a fact. The theory would be labeled as instructions on how to preform a certain act, if the author actually preforms what he has written and knows for a fact that it works. So like I said before I also have my own thoughts, and speculations, and theories and just plain don't have time to explore everyone's theories along with my own. I am also free to use any bits and pieces of information that I might find on my own or suggested from the many knowledgeable and friendly people here. you came on strong telling me that I am wrong and that I should do things this way, without a attempt at a replication yourself to show me where I went wrong? You get more peoples attention around here, producing fact. If I tell you I am this far along then you'll probably want to see for yourself, But with YouTube I can not only tell you where I'm at but I can also show you. What I am doing is fun for me and I enjoy sharing my videos with everyone. Oh I'm in the right thread, I feel as if I have been here from the start of it so I'm staying. If you feel I should do something different then by all means make a suggestion but don't demand it. As far as the PDF and what not you find, its a good bet that most of us here have all ready seen and read them. But don't let that stop you from posting them, Sometimes a new one may pop up. You are correct you can lead a horse to water, but... you can't lead a mule, if he doesn't want to go!

Recently I was sent a link to these "u"tube videos they were posted by "magdude1979"

While they are interesting in what they show they do lack confirmed details, BUT and it is a big but the vids show a working spark tube as the energy source.

YouTube - EV GRAY Pulse Motor (Experiment #1)
YouTube - EV GRAY Pulse Motor (Experiment # 0.5)

Gives us all hope that one day we will crack the problem

Yes, this is correct, I took your basic concept and tweeked it a little. Adding an idea suggested I try from Electrotek, who suggested Beshires1's proto board . From there things were off and running. Sorry I never responded , when things happen fast I tend to lose track of other things to do. Even this post of yours wasn't seen by me until today. It almost was missed entirely.

This is also correct. I have got the effect from a jacobs ladder setup. The effect is stunning!
What I'm doing is trying to replicate Greys system. Not Duplicate. As most of us here know, trying to duplicate Greys system from his patent drawings, have left many experimenters frustrated, and many have given up. Its hard to duplicate something from information given from a man who clearly didn't want anyone to duplicate it. But from the available information gathered, one can try to replicate his results. Also I don't have a scope so I cannot "see" what is actually happening, voltages, spikes, and whatever. The device I have built is so easy and simple "even a caveman, can do it" (I could not resist that line) I am having to rely upon visuals, meter readings and other aids in determining what the effect is doing.
The Jar setup looks nice, and is easy to build. Now I'm going to install a collection grid, that no HV jumps to to see if I can capture any energy from those massive discharges.

Nope not even close here is a definition of terms in case you missed it in high school.
Replication ->One of the main principles of the scientific method, a.k.a. reproducibility.
Duplication ->exact copy.
They are one in the same. The one reason that many have failed is because of the exact same reason you have failed. No one even thinks about the whole system they take one aspect and say they are replicating it. Fine but the system doesn't work that way it is a harmony that take very long time to adjust to resonance. Obviously you have no idea what Gray was doing seeing the fact that you can't even spell his name right or even get the terms correct for what you are doing which is to replicate what he did. No one was Telling you to do what I said. I only gave advice which you don't want, fine. But don't twist words to justify what you are not doing which is the replication of the Gray tube. If you have read the pdf then you would have understood that resonance in these type of systems is a quest in itself. All to many times people try to reproduce this and that but then say it isn't possible because the Gray system was just that! It worked as one unit Each piece was a part of a whole system that when operating channeled more energy then you could handle. In fact Grays own words were we are trying to create lightning. Would you care to guess the power contained in a single lightning bolt?
From an experimentors view what would you have done with the massive energy that would have come if the tube was correct? You have no outlet for such power. And trust me if you do manage to replicate the tube or the event that would probably be you last experiment you ever did, Poof! Grays tube was a small part of what he discovered. And it work in harmony with all the other parts including a way to utilize the generated power once it was attained. Resonance is not easy to attain and having more then one part of the system resonance would be even harder to attain. In all the experiments after Gray not one thought about the whole or even 1 thought that resonance had 1 bit to do with it, thats why they failed. And thats why you will never see anything on the order of magnitude Gray did. None the less Gray had many many Tools to monitor and adjust his outcome of which you said you are going from sight. How hard do you think it would be to time a cars ignition without a timing gun? Down right impossible. Sure you might get lucky but then what? What do you do with megawatts or even gigawatts of power that would come?
And thats where I will end this if you want to build the abomb then go ahead not knowing what effects you are generating will do just that. Using such high voltage can bring some very unwanted results in such a way that can cook your very body. Ever heard of Gamma rays, x-rays to name a few. Both of which could fry you in an instant. So you keep poking around in areas that even our own scientists put up protection shielding for. Even Tesla knew the importance of protecting ones self when going into unknown territory of High voltage and frequency. When you have no way to control or monitor what you are releasing it can get deadly. So have at it. Don't say I didn't warn you.

Hi Guy's

I am wondering if there is something like a ingnore button on this board?
Just so one does not have to read the crap some people are polluting the thread with?
I sometimes even believe they are dis-info agents hired to do that

Anyway i have made some illustrations as to give people a better visual look on about what happens between the electrodes, when oscillation is present, and what happens when it is fed strictly DC.
I do hope it will make a bit more clear what i was talking about yesterday.

Marcoz.

Attached Images

	Capacitance explained.jpg (40.2 KB, 20 views)
	Ac in the tube.jpg (54.2 KB, 16 views)
	Dc in the tube.jpg (82.9 KB, 19 views)

I'm trying to ignore him, I will not respond to his childish actions. Let the wind blow itself out. He's runnin on his own stupidity and someone elts's unproven theory.

I just read somebody having no scope.
I know what it is like because i once too had no equipment to visualize what was happening.
Along the road i have bought some stuff that makes it easier.
But this does not mean it cannot be done without this sometimes expensive equipment.

I like especially the "caveman idea".
So i have quickly drawn another image that can be explored without a scope.
It is very simple, and it immitates what i have been talking about yesterday and today.
The voltages are less, but you can scale it up ,please be carefull
A bleeding resistor on C2 can come in handy (1m to 100k), although it does not take too much time for C2 to leak empty, before it can be fired again.
Also it is possible to replace S1 with a small neon bulb, then the system can pulsate and blink the neon for a very long time.
I have to say it get's more intresting when voltage goes way up, but if you are not used to work with high voltage, be carefull.

C2 immitates the capacity of the Cset and you can use other values to see what happens, which is quite similar to changing the distance and size of the Conversion Grids, and so now you can see how this can affect timing etc.

Have fun

Marcoz.

Attached Images

testsetup.jpg (68.6 KB, 28 views)

In that case, you might want to take a look at this thread:
El-Cheapo Oscilloscope using PC + soundcard

Bear in mind though that sound cards do *not* like being fed with sparks, not even if that happens by accident. I speak out of experience. on this one....

Hi Marcoz,

Nice pictures!

However, I think the effect we're after has to do with harnessing radiant energy, just using a different way Bedini is doing. And radiant energy is a totally different beast then ordinary electricity.

As far as I understand, it is the electric field itself, which travels at the speed of light and is probably the actual cause of electric currents. On one hand, it appears to behave like a very thin film of water flowing around matter, and on the other hand, it appears to be able to spread out into space.

So, when you put a spike on a wire or a rod (like BEMF coming from a coil), you first get the electric field to expand just outside your circuit, apparantly staying very close to matter, and then the electrons inside arrange themselves according to the field that is present outside the circuit, which on
its turn creates a repelling electric field, much like the "back EMF" you get from a collapsing magnetic field.

This is the view I got after studying the papers by Eric Dollard, which are a very good introduction IMHO, even though there appear to be some errors in some formulas, IIRC. Eric Dollard appears to be about the only person that was capable of replicating most of Tesla's experiments:
Eric Dollard Notes (1986--1991)

Based on this, I don't think oscillations are the key. Radiant energy is all about pulsed DC with sharp gradients, *not* harmonic oscillations.

Another paper that might be interesting is "ON LIGHT AND OTHER HIGH FREQUENCY PHENOMENA" by Nikola Tesla from 1893(!). Really nice to read his almost philosophical introduction about the human eye, but there's more interesting things.

First of all, he talks about how he uses spark gaps and mentions what carbon is used for:

"When the current through the gap is comparatively large, it is of advantage to slip on the points of the discharge rods pieces of very hard carbon and let the arc play between the carbon pieces. This preserves the rods, and besides has the advantage of keeping the air space hotter, as the heat is not conducted away as quickly through the carbons, and the result is that a smaller E. M. F. in the arc gap is required to maintain a succession of discharges."

What he describes about the use of spark gaps is how to create high voltage, high frequency DC pulses. Therefore, I think you can replicate the Gray tube without any spark gaps at all using modern semiconductors, which after all were not exactly readily available in the time of Tesla, which is supposedly the basis of Gray's work.

However, this is just an opinion....

The thing I find encouraging about magdude's presentation is that at least some of the sparks in his Tube are coming out through the holes. This means that the electron cascade in oxygen associated with the puff spark expansion can also be captured by an additional grid, increasing the output.

Anyone can visit their control panel:
http://www.energeticforum.com/usercp.php

There is a buddy/ignore list option in the left column towards the bottom.