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Renewable Energy Discussion on various alternative energy, renewable energy, & free energy technologies. Also any discussion about the environment, global warming, and other related topics are welcome here.

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Old 10-09-2008, 06:04 PM
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Jetijs Jetijs is offline
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Wink My replication of the fuelless oil heater

I am interested in replicating Loyds friction heater, but until I have everything I need for that, I decided to try out the heater with two cylinders and oil between them. I mean this one:
http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/8EbpSK6...Heater%20a.pdf
Thank you Rick for the link

It is really easy and I threw it together in few hours. The outer cylinder is about 25 cm tall and 98mm in diameter with 2mm thick walls. The inner cylinder is about 20cm tall and 86mm in diameter also with 2mm walls. The gap between the cylinders is about 6mm. The inner cylinder has glued on caps so that its ends are shut and it can not fill with oil. The main shaft is just a piece of lead screw 10mm in diameter.

I filled the system up with synthetic gear oil and attached it to a drill press. The highest RPM's that the drill can put out is 2020 RPM. When I turned the drill ON, I started to monitor the temperatures with an IR thermometer. Unfortunately the IR thermometer does not give accurate readings from the shiny cylinder surface. So I put it away. After about 5 minutes, the outer cylinder temperature became so hot, that I could not hold my hand on it (that would be about 60 degree Celsius), so I stopped the drill. I also can not go too high because of the polycarbonate end caps, that could melt at gigher temperatures.

Anyway, it seems to work, it certainly puts out heat. I don't know about the efficiencies yet, but it works. Now I need to get a normal thermometer and do some more testing. Here are some pics:





Any comments and suggestions are welcomed
Thanks,
Jetijs
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Old 10-09-2008, 06:13 PM
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You really got something here!!

Nice way to go Jet!!
Always do magic tricks with your hand!LOL
Do you plan to put cap on your inner tube?
Do you made some research on heat transfer?
I`m not sure but there are some metal who transfer heat more than other.
Waiting for more results..
Nice job again Jet!!

Alain D
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Old 10-09-2008, 06:43 PM
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FuzzyTomCat FuzzyTomCat is offline
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Hi Jetijs,

Very impressive prototype construction , the only problem I've ever seen with these type of devices is the oil foaming up and the oil loosing its viscosity from the heat from prolonged operation.

Best Regards,
Glen
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Old 10-09-2008, 07:11 PM
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Jetijs Jetijs is offline
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Thanks guys.

Alain, the inner tube already has caps on both ends sealing it so that no oil can get in the inner tube
Unfortunately there is a problem in my polycarbonate outer tube bottom plate, I have to replace it and do not have any polycarbonate left. So I will be able to do more testing only tomorrow evening. Will get a better thermometer and test this also with water and see what time it takes to get to a certain temperature using various liquids
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Old 10-09-2008, 08:48 PM
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Reply to Jetijs:

You're welcome, Jetijs. I'm glad you found the link useful. Yes, these type of heaters are rather simple to construct. Basically, it is a cavitation type heater, where disturbance of the liquid produces heat. The writers of the document found at the link suggest that something else is also going on inside, and that may actually be so, but doesn't seem to have been proven yet. In any case, it definitely works to create and transfer heat. The heat transfer effect to the inner container could be likened to holding a styrofoam cup of hot coffee, with a closed lid, in your hand. If you move your hand in a horizontal circular motion, to swirl the coffee, the cup gets hot very quickly and passes this heat to your hand. With your inner container, the heat is passed to the air inside. You may need to construct a metal bottom plate for each of the cylinders to avoid overheating problems. It will be interesting to see how your experiments go using different liquids.

Have fun, and keep us posted,

Rick
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Old 10-09-2008, 08:49 PM
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Broken link ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetijs View Post
I am interested in replicating Loyds friction heater, but until I have everything I need for that, I decided to try out the heater with two cylinders and oil between them. I mean this one:
http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/8EbpSK6...Heater%20a.pdf
Thank you Rick for the link
Hi Jetijs

Very nice work ! The link doesn't seem to work...

Michel
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Old 10-09-2008, 11:04 PM
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Reply to Druide:

That's because you must be signed in to Yahoo Groups before you attempt to access the link.

Rick
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Old 10-10-2008, 01:52 AM
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Link

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickoff View Post
That's because you must be signed in to Yahoo Groups before you attempt to access the link.

Rick
Thanks Rick. That's what I thaught and tried to find a link to sign in, like http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com and other variations, but nothing works. Anybody has a link ti sign in ?

Thanks

Michel
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Old 10-10-2008, 03:17 AM
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deggers deggers is offline
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Temp

Nice work Jetijs!

Try putting masking tape or flat black paint on shiny objects to get accurate IR thermal readings.

Duane
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Old 10-10-2008, 03:18 AM
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Sorry...

But I've just spent over a half hour trying to connect to the link too. Maybe it has something to do with my computer but Yahoo doesn't know anything about the link you gave. I tried shortening the URL to see what it would bring and only got errors. The shortest URL brought back 4300 entries.

Some guys are just lucky, I guess.

Warren
..
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Old 10-10-2008, 07:50 AM
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Re: Link

Sorry guys,

It appears that the file has been removed. It was posted at the waterfuel1978 site, which is operated by S1r9a9m9. Lately he has been deleting anything on his forum that is not directly related to his topic.

Try this link instead:

http://1a26.com/pdf/Free%20Energy/Fuelless%20Heater.pdf

Rick
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Old 10-10-2008, 10:39 AM
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That link works

Thanks Rick!

Jet,
Your model looks neat. It appears to be narrower than some of the displays in the guide. In scale it could effect performance

Nice job nevertheless!
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Old 10-10-2008, 11:49 AM
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mrbreau mrbreau is offline
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Thanks Rick

This link works! It seems I've seen this file somewhere before but downloaded it anyway.

I appreciate your efforts, all of them.

Warren
..
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Old 10-10-2008, 04:32 PM
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Thanks for the link Rick !

Michel
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Old 10-10-2008, 06:37 PM
Lemontree Lemontree is offline
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you can paint some 10x10cm large area on outer tube with black matte paint. and this will be the "no shining place", from which you can take measuring with IR thermometer


wery interesting.

also, is the gap correct? i remember something about one eight inch, or smth.
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Old 10-10-2008, 11:15 PM
Peter Lindemann Peter Lindemann is offline
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Where it all came from.....

Hi Guys,

Here's a link to the Rex Research file on these things. It all started with Eugene Frenette's patent in 1979.

Eugene Frenette / Eugene Perkins: Friction Heater (US Patent # 4,134,639, etc.)

Warmly,

Peter
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Old 10-11-2008, 03:12 AM
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Another link

IMO, it is NOT a stretch of the imagination to visualize the *Frennet Friction Heater* as a POSSIBLE heat source. There are many examples of the system in use today, for example, the automatic transmission in today's cars. Ever wonder why there is an oil line to the radiator from the automatic transmission? To cool the oil TO 180 degrees? From what temperature? And what is the potential temperature if the oil ISN'T COOLED?

Consider also the clem hydraulic motor, which can be seen here:

Link; Richard Clem: Hydraulic Engine

There is a LOT of reading there but the concept is surely plausible AND doable.

Warren
..

"When a man's knowledge is not in order; the more of it he has, and the greater will be his confusion." Herbert Spencer
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Old 10-11-2008, 12:26 PM
Ted Ewert Ted Ewert is offline
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I was going to mention the Clem motor too. Anytime you have two surfaces rotating against each other in close proximity, with a liquid in between, you'll get heat.
The sleeve bearings on a crankshaft would generate some good heat. I wonder how much extra heat could be generated by applying some pressure to a couple of metal sleeves pressed against a rotating shaft in a bath of oil? Some radial, or even spiral slots cut into the shaft would provide a constant supply of oil in between the sleeves. Or no slots at all and just a small gap between the sleeves. The oil would then adhere to the shaft through surface tension.
I have a theory about this type of heating. What I think is happening between the two counter rotating surfaces is the creation of small vortexes. These vortexes are created by the drag of the two surface tensions moving in opposite directions. Their rotational axis is the same as the cylinders.
If you have ever studied the Hilsch vortex tube, you know that a high speed vortex will separate into two components: a centrifugal flow, and a centripetal flow. The centrifugal flow is around the outside of the vortex and gets quite hot through expansion, The centripetal flow is in the center of the vortex and gets quite cold through implosion.
As in a hurricane, the centrifugal component occupies most of the volume of the vortex. It is this part that is also coming into contact with the two rotating surfaces. Naturally, the heat separated by the centrifugal component of the vortex would be transferred directly to these surfaces.
As there is no surface in contact with the inner centripetal component of the vortex, its cooling effect is not realized.
To get the most heat separation in a vortex, angular velocity needs to be quite high. A Hilsch tube operates at around a million RPM. This is possible because the vortex creates coaxial laminations which are virtually friction free. The inner part of a vortex spins many time faster than the outer part. Therefore, the inner part of our vortex will be spinning many times the speed of the relative velocity of the two rotating surfaces in our device. This is the speed we need for heat separation to take place.
This mechanism makes sense to me anyway. Cavitation may be a part of the centripetal implosion in the vortexes, but I don't really know.

Ted
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Old 10-11-2008, 01:49 PM
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Jetijs Jetijs is offline
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A little update. I made a smaller heater using tubes about 2x smaller in diameter. Although the diameter is smaller, this small heater had 2x smaller gap between the cylinders - about 3mm. So I started testing. Using the small heater with gear oil, I was able to get its temperature from 20 degree celsius to 50 degree in 10 minutes and 10 seconds. Not too great. Then I made the same test using the bigger heater. It has a bigger gap between the cylinders - about 6mm. I used the same oil and the same RPMs. The temperature got from 20 degree to 50 degree much faster - in 5 minutes and 52 seconds. So although the gap is bigger, the big heater performs much better. I think that this is because of the greater diameter. If the diameter is bigger and the cylinder is moving at the same RPM's as the smaller diameter tube, the bigger tube surface will travel much greater distance than the small cylinder surface.
I also tried it on vegetable oil, but the results were not very good. So far it seems that the thicker the oil, the better.
Thanks,
Jetijs.
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Old 10-11-2008, 08:20 PM
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larger vs smaller:

That's exactly right, Jetijs. The larger that you build one of these units, the more efficient it will be. Doubling the diameters of the tubes doubles the circumferences of the oil/air space, requiring the oil to cover twice the distance in the same amount of time (if the same rpm is used, of course).

In reading the Farm Show Magazine story of the Frenette friction heater, it is stated that, "It's made up of two cylinders spinning in opposite directions. There is a clearance of 1/8 in. between the two cylinders which are lubricated by a quart of light motor oil." Now that would seem to be an ideal arrangement. Not only do you double the effective speed of the driven shaft, but you also create a much greater degree of friction. Think of the oil flow as acting kind of like two cars passing closely by each other in different directions on a highway, and the significant turbulence that produces. Spinning the cylinders in opposite directions would require a little bit of gearing if one drive motor is used, but it would be very interesting to observe the comparative results. In looking through the various patent diagrams within the Rex Research link that Peter provided a link to, none of the designs (including Frenette's) was shown with two cylinders that would rotate in opposite directions. In all cases, one cylinder is stationary. Thus, the writer of the Farm Show Magazine article was either mistaken, or related something revealed to him by Frenette that is not disclosed in the patent application diagram. In any case, the opposite rotation idea would appear to make sense in that it may greatly increase turbulence, and the resultant heating effect, and is definitely worth exploring.

Best to all,

Rick
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Old 10-11-2008, 09:07 PM
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Re: different oils

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetijs View Post
I also tried it on vegetable oil, but the results were not very good. So far it seems that the thicker the oil, the better.
Hi Jetijs,

Have you experimented with a wider variety of oil types and viscosities? It would be interesting to note and record the differences obtained using brake fluid, automatic transmission fluid, standard transmission oil, differential gear oil, positraction differential gear oil, and marine grade lower unit gear oil as used for outboard drives. It would seem that the molecular structure of the lightest oils provides the slipperiest substance with least friction from turbulence. It would also seem likely that a point would be reached where the heavier viscosity oils would not be capable of receiving and transferring the full benefit of the turbulence/friction effect. No doubt you have already been thinking along these lines, and it will be interesting to see what the optimal oil type and viscosity appears to be. Does the heating rate seem to rise in a linear effect in relation to elapsed time, or is the rate of heating speeded up exponentially as the temperature rises? If the latter is true then you probably wouldn't do well using a multi-grade oil, such as a 10W-40.

Just some additional food for thought from the man in Maine.

Best regards,

Rick
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Old 11-02-2008, 01:14 AM
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Oil Information

Hi Jetijs,

Here is some information on different ISO viscosity grade oils from 46 to 460 weight oils, the bad thing is all are rated at 200 degrees F maximum for all major oil manufactures. I've seen ISO 220 used in very large "Jeffery Hammer Mills" for Rexnord bearing lubrication @ 5 GPM / 60 PSI for Temperature and foaming problems, it operates at 160 degrees F and the oil viscosity is equal to ISO 30 weight oil at that temperature. ( at 214 degrees F you replace the burnt up bearings )

http://www.delzer.com/Rexnord/falk/128010.pdf

Also some information on "Oil Foaming" thats quite good it has data on preheating heavy weight oil prior to adding to a system and some other things to help eliminate foaming that I found surfin around.

Controlling Oil Aeration and Foam

Hope this may help,

Glen

Last edited by FuzzyTomCat : 11-02-2008 at 06:26 PM. Reason: updated information
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Old 11-02-2008, 05:18 AM
Vortex Vortex is offline
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Oil info

glycerine has a high viscosity but getting a str8 answer on the
flash point is going to be hard. It always amazes me how different
or non-existent some of this data can be on spec sheets.
It's around 190 C.

That's an example of how screwed up science is, I guess.

vegetable, olive is highest viscosity of the vegetables,
flash point somewhere around 600 F as I remember.
Mixing some Diatomaceous Earth, it will not burn,
in the oil will beef up the viscosity.
Go easy, it will make your oil just MUD real quick!!
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Old 11-09-2008, 12:22 PM
Guruji Guruji is offline
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Oil spinning heater

I did one with a pump casing and never tried it for a long time spinning but it seemed that heat was increasing.
I heard that if one does it in a form of a cup it's much more efficient.
It would be good if one tries this.
Thanks.
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Old 08-04-2009, 05:11 PM
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What I'am doing wrong? (fuelless heater)

What I'am doing wrong? (fuelless heater)
I constructed this prototype of the fuelless heater. But it did not work.
I didn't try for running this for 5 minutes. I used some machine oil for 2 stroke engines.
At the bottom, there is a little ball. It can touch the bottom of the outside aluminum. The outside is aluminum. The inner cylinder is sheet metal from a eating can. The rod is welded on top of the can.
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Old 01-10-2010, 09:14 PM
Foggy-Notion Foggy-Notion is offline
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Jetijs, you da man!
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Old 01-10-2010, 09:29 PM
Foggy-Notion Foggy-Notion is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guruji View Post
I did one with a pump casing and never tried it for a long time spinning but it seemed that heat was increasing.
I heard that if one does it in a form of a cup it's much more efficient.
It would be good if one tries this.
Thanks.
If you mean cone shaped or semi-cone shaped,
(base diameter smaller than rim diameter) I know one thing about that idea,
it will be easier to find ready made materials.

I knew this worked but could never find cooking pots that fit into one another
with the perfect gap remaining., so figured I would have to have if fabricated
and put it off until other projects were done and or money available, etc..

But then I saw this thread by Jetijs, another true hero of the people,
who just did it, and settled the matter, way cool. Anyway not sure if
cone shape is more efficient but deffinitly makes fabrication easier as
it opens access doors to all kinds of available ready made materials.
Stainless steel waste baskets that stack into each other the way that
styrofoam cups do, just buy two of those waste baskets, prefect.

Here's an example, not sure how big it is though.
Two-Tone Stainless Steel Wastebasket - Bed Bath & Beyond

i'm not saying this is better than pipe, heck if the pipe worked and you can afford it,
I would go that route in several cases, where space saving is a concern, long tall ones,
in the corner, small shop heaters, like Jetijs made, etc, certainly durable.

Last edited by Foggy-Notion : 01-11-2010 at 03:35 AM. Reason: reason for editing? er? forgot something
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Old 01-11-2010, 01:42 PM
gene gene gene gene is offline
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Hi Jetijs,

Another very nice build my friend. Thank you for all your hard works here, and sharing.
In reading post #18 by Ted I again began wondering if these temperature differentials might somehow be put to work, for I too am fascinated by the Hilsch vortex tube.
Whenever I look at a mechanical type heater like yours or say a (Lloyds), I find myself wondering if you might be able to use the heat for the hot side of a Stirling engine? When we looked at this in the Lloyds F S B thread, it seems that Rick said that we need about a 300 deg diff between hot and cold sides of engine, for it to produce much work. If the heater is in my basement, and the Stirling is sitting in the boxsill between the floor joists. The cold side of engine could be extended to the outside of the house. Here in N Wis. we have many days in winter when we have a temp diff inside to out of 65 deg or more. Might your heater produce the rest of the required temp differential? It could be started with a torch and left to run on it's own for free. The colder it gets outside the more efficient system becomes.
What do you think?

Keep up the good works,
Gene
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Old 01-11-2010, 03:26 PM
bugler bugler is offline
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Jetijs you are really an amazing engineer. I can only wish that some day I can do a fraction of what you do.

What I don't understand is what is preventing this kind of easy-to-replicate technology from reaching the market. It is not rocket science. Why is it not available?

Thanks.
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Old 01-11-2010, 10:07 PM
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Jetijs Jetijs is offline
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Hi guys
Thanks for the kind words
I have not really done any further experiments in this area, I just made those quick tests back then and verified that you can indeed create heat this way, but my results were not as promising as in that pdf manual (as always). I did not measure the heat BTU's and did not compare the heat energy to the applied electric energy so I can't tell you if you could use it on a Sirling engine, probably it would not work well, because as far as I know stirling engines are not the most efficient engines. Also what would be the point in using electricity to turn the barrel to create heat to run the stirling engine? The losses would be great.
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