Rick.. Thanks for the tips.. I will read the articles you mentioned. It's hard to believe that someone back then didn't at less construct one to prove or disprove Tesla's claims. I could see a compact Tanner "friction (flash) Boiler" and a Tesla turbine driving a DC generator, powering an electric car or truck..or for that matter.. a multistage turbine powering the drive train..
Best wishes for the New Year to all and may we all find some thing to get excited about !

Paul

As you will see from reading the Tesla interview, linked in my previous post, Tesla's turbines were way more than simply conceptual designs. Tesla built and tested several different turbines in various sizes and configurations, ranging to well over 200 hp, all based upon his simplified concept. Each of these functioned as claimed, and Tesla was quite willing to demonstrate them to visitors, as the interview proves.

One would think, after postive write-ups by the NY Herald Tribune, Scientific American, and Popular Mechanics Magazine, all in 1911, that everyone and their uncle would have wanted to replicate the Tesla turbine for their own use, and perhaps many people did. As far as I know, though, the Popular Mechanics article was the only one which showed any photographs of the turbine devices, and those may have caused people to believe that the device was actually rather complicated. It is only by looking at the patent illustrations that one can see, and fully understand, the simplicity of the Tesla turbine design. We have to remember that in the early 1900's it would have been quite difficult for most people to make the trip to the US Patent Office and review the actual patent. It is much easier today to locate the patent, and to find articles related to replication plans. If you search eBay for "tesla turbine," you will find several people offering to sell DIY booklets, CD's, or document downloads that may or may not be helpful in building a replication, but I don't see anyone offering to sell a Tesla turbine. There would probably be a good demand for purchase of Tesla turbines if someone started building them, and offered a quality product at a very reasonable price.

Rick

Rickoff,

How about some update equipment rather than a steam engine that does not rquire a constant water flow. The White car engine.

Will this work for the 21 century.

The Spy Wares of a Real-Life Q - MSN Tech & Gadgets - Slide Shows - Products - 15

Rod

Hi Rod,

I'm not exactly sure what you are asking me. Could you rephrase the question, please?

Thanks,

Rick

Tesla Engine Builders Association
Tesla Engine Builders Association

Just showing how far we have come.

Block of wood + friction = heat.

Magnesium = heat. 5000 degrees...WOW, I am surprised someone did not pick up on this.


Both have water circulation to keep something warm.

Just wondering how Efficient it is ?
Magnesium is plentiful.

Hi rsc,

yep .... your right about the Magnesium ..... but one should always remember that a prototype device is one thing. If a device is to be produced for sale to be used in a home or business it must have a UL listing, and approved by the NFPA ( National Fire Protection Association ) wood stoves, steam pressure vesicles all can be approved fairly easily but a possible chemical reaction chamber and Magnesium storage may cause some problems, these authorities having jurisdiction over approvals not to mention State and Local codes.

Regards,
Fuzzy

Okay Rod, I see what you are getting at. It was a bit difficult to determine what your previous post was referring to. I thought maybe you were asking if the White car engine would be the best suited steam engine for Lloyd's device. To avoid any confusion in the future, please try to state your questions or ideas in a way that will be clearly understood by all.

I think most of us here understand about magnesium, and the heat that can be derived from it. I really don't want to steer anyone towards experimenting with magnesium, as it can be very dangerous. I can't emphasize that enough. I wrote about the dangers June 27, 2008, in post #15 of the Suppressed Technologies and Inventors thread, and will repost the info here for everyone's convenience. Please read and take notice:

Bottom line: Be safe, not sorry! Don't mess with magnesium. If I haven't convinced you to give up any such endeavor, then please take those ideas to another thread at another website. Thank you. And thanks, Glen (Fuzzy Tom Cat) for your post warning about magnesium.

Best to all, Rick

Thanks very much for the link you provided - some very interesting and informative articles there. This shows that there definitely are some people out there who are successfully replicating and employing Tesla's turbine.

Rick

Hi folks,

The temperature here in Maine hovers at zero tonight as I write this. It makes me feel thankful that Lloyd Tanner has shared the knowledge of his friction device with us, and that by building the device we may have low cost heat and power for our homes. It also makes me think about Nikola Tesla, and how different things would be today if he had been allowed to proceed with his plans. Imagine that you were able to have very low, or no-cost, electrical power delivered to your home and to your automobile by wireless transmission. Just imagine that. How much money could you save each year if all your energy needs were provided free of charge, and how much better would the quality of your life be? How much better would things be for all of mankind, for that matter? Well, it's not just some far fetched dream. The technology already exists, and Tesla proved it in his Colorado experiments more than a hundred years ago. I spoke of these experiments in an earlier post, but that isn't where the story ended. Read on for, as Paul Harvey would say, "the rest of the story."

It was at the Wardenclyffe laboratory facility, located at Shoreham, Long Island, New York, that Tesla developed his finest turbines. The facility was also a manufacturing site for Tesla coils and other electrical devices, but Tesla's prime interest in the site was the 187 foot tall tower that he constructed there with a plan of demonstrating both trans-oceanic communications and Extreme Low Frequency (ELF) power transmission below ground to a receiving station to be built either in London or France.

Tesla was so far ahead of his time that he clearly envisioned many of the things that we have seen come to pass only in recent times. In speaking about the purpose of his Wardenclyffe project, Tesla stated, "It is intended to give practical demonstrations of these principles with the plant illustrated. As soon as completed, it will be possible for a business man in New York to dictate instructions, and have them instantly appear in type at his office in London or elsewhere. He will be able to call up, from his desk, and talk to any telephone subscriber on the globe, without any change whatever in the existing equipment. An inexpensive instrument, not bigger than a watch, will enable its bearer to hear anywhere, on sea or land, music or song, the speech of a political leader, the address of an eminent man of science, or the sermon of an eloquent clergyman, delivered in some other place, however distant. In the same manner any picture, character, drawing, or print can be transferred from one to another place. Millions of such instruments can be operated from but one plant of this kind. More important than all of this, however, will be the transmission of power, without wires, which will be shown on a scale large enough to carry conviction."

The only thing we are missing today is Tesla's transmission towers and the ability to do all these things free of charge, which was Nikola Tesla's ultimate plan. Wardenclyffe was built in 1902 and 1903, but all funding ground to a halt in 1905. Around 1907, Tesla's patent for Alternating Current generation expired, and he no longer received royalties from that. When he could no longer afford to continue the project on his own, Tesla was granted a mortgage in 1908 by George Boldt, owner of the Waldorf Astoria Hotel in New York City. Boldt called in the $20,000 debt in 1915, and took control of the property. Tesla was effectively locked out, and lost everything that was contained inside the lab building. Talk about suppression! And remember that Tesla had already lost everything due to an 1895 fire at his earlier laboratory at 35 South Fifth Avenue. What was in the Wardenclyffe facility, you might ask? According to Wikipedia, "It included a laboratory area, instrument room, boiler room, generator room and machine shop. Inside the main building, there were electromechanical devices, electrical generators, electrical transformers, glass blowing equipment, X-ray devices, Tesla coils, a remote controlled boat, cases with bulbs and tubes, wires, cables, a library, and an office." And of course it also contained his finest Tesla Turbine devices.

The Wardenclyffe tower was dynamited in 1917 by none other than the US government, which offered a very lame excuse for the destruction. The laboratory building still exists. To learn more about this fascinating story, see my post #17 at the following Energetic Forum site: Tesla's wireless electricity transmission

Referring to his turbine - Tesla stated that, "It's all so simple, so very simple. This is the greatest of my inventions...." With all that Tesla accomplished, the fact that he regarded the turbine as his greatest invention should be reason enough for us to heartily pursue it. Even the most advanced bladed steam turbines currently built today cannot compare to the efficiency of Tesla's bladeless disc design, except when built in a multiple stage design, and no other turbine can match the durability and low maintenance aspects of Tesla's design. It's a perfect match for Lloyd Tanner's Friction Steamer. If you haven't already read up on the Tesla Turbine, please see posts # 203, 206, 210, and 219 of this thread for further information.

Good night, and best to all,

Rick

Just thought I'd post this photo to show the complexity and fragility of a bladed turbine, in contrast to the simplicity and durability of the Tesla design. The pictured turbine was built by General Electric at their Large Steam Turbine Generator (LSTG) plant in Schenectady, New York.


I went to work at the LSTG facility in 1965 as a lathe operator, turning out valves for the LSTG's on a rather large lathe. The castings for these valves were of super hard alloys which could dull down a carbide cutting tool tip very quickly, and a successful cutting pass could only be made at very low rotational speeds and with lots of coolant. Because of the slow speed of cutting, and the length of the valve stems, it often took a half hour or more to make a single cutting pass, so it was kind of a cushy job in that I could sit down and relax while making many of the longer cuts. Since I worked the overnight shift, I had to be very careful not to doze off, and to always remain very close at hand in case a cutting tip failed. Every morning, I went home with holes burned in the sleeves of my shirts from the hot chips that came flying off the cutting tool, and can still see some small scars on my arms that remind me of that job. The worst of it was getting a hot chip down through my collar on the back of my neck, or having a chip land in my hair. I must say that the hot chips did help to keep me awake and alert! The job seemed awfully boring to me after having worked as a machinist in an automotive speed shop, but it paid much better. During work breaks, I often wandered about the insides of the building and marveled at the massive size of the component parts and assemblies that we were building. The LSTG's were destined for use at nuclear plants, and the scale of some of the components was really awesome. We had the world's largest lathe at the LSTG plant, which was used to cut and grind the main turbine shafts such as the one pictured above. Looking down upon it from a balcony high above, the lathe operator looked like an ant compared to the turbine shaft, and the entire shaft - after being bladed - was truly gargantuan in size. The technical complexity arising from the sheer number of parts actually required to complete a LSTG assembly is mind numbing, and raises the question why these became the industry standard rather than Tesla's simple disc turbine design. Well, complexity drives up the cost to build an item, but the customer pays for that manufacturing cost, and for a hefty production profit as well. And that's just the beginning. Can you imagine what it costs to maintain these massive turbines and generators, and can you imagine what maintenance and repair down time costs a powerplant operator in terms of lost production time? Because of this, the service end of the business is probably even more lucrative than the manufacturing end, especially as the components age. The Tesla turbines could have been manufactured at a fraction of the cost of bladed turbines, and the durability of Tesla's design would have greatly reduced down times for maintenance and repairs. Adoption of Tesla's design would also have meant that instead of one or two companies building large steam generators, the simplified technology would have allowed many more companies to flourish and compete. From GE's point of view, therefore, it would have made no sense to build Tesla turbines. Maintaining and increasing complexity of design was their vantage point.

I'm glad that I had the experience of working at the LSTG plant, but I'm ever so more thankful that I did not try to make a career out of it and that I moved to Maine to pursue my dreams.

I hope this story wasn't too long-winded or boring. Just thought it might help some people make sense of the reasons why the Tesla turbine was not adopted as the industry standard. I hope someone enjoyed reading this.

Best to all,

Rick

Rickoff,
Hello once again. Sorry you feel the way you do.

[quote=rickoff;41373]Okay Rod, I see what you are getting at. It was a bit difficult to determine what your previous post was referring to.

I thought it was very clear. I stated ...How about some updated equipment. Bringing this to todays technology, Not 19th century technology.

Just showing another way of heating water. Not a way to be used in conjunction with Lloyds device.


I thought maybe you were asking if the White car engine would be the best suited steam engine for Lloyd's device.

I feel that the White engine could be very helpful by using the self contained system.

To avoid any confusion in the future, please try to state your questions or ideas in a way that will be clearly understood by all.

I do not see the confusion I showed you a way of the old then a way of the new.

I think most of us here understand about magnesium, and the heat that can be derived from it. I really don't want to steer anyone towards experimenting with magnesium, as it can be very dangerous. I can't emphasize that enough. I wrote about the dangers June 27, 2008, in post #15 of the Suppressed Technologies and Inventors thread, and will repost the info here for everyone's convenience. Please read and take notice:

I never mention to or want anyone to use Magnesium. Just showing what could be done with the right R & D. Is this not what we are doing here?

Bottom line: Be safe, not sorry! Don't mess with magnesium. If I haven't convinced you to give up any such endeavor, then please take those ideas to another thread at another website. Thank you. And thanks, Glen (Fuzzy Tom Cat) for your post warning about magnesium.

I feel and hear what you are saying.
I have in no order given anyone any ideas.
On the other side there could be someone looking at this post and determine that they have the necessary Funding and Facility to do just that.

Should we then advise them not to do the R &D? If so then I would have not of been able to post the S-Tron device. More power to them.


No one should not do anything like this without the proper education and facility to conduct such experiments. This is my disclaimer.


I wish to thank FuzzyTomCat for his information.
I agree with you also...But are not Proto-types made to see if something does work and the possiblities of mass production.

I have have been down this road a number of times, to include the Federal Reg. and FCC Reg. and State reg. and Local regs.

So with what ability I do have...I try to lead people to possibilities and let them learn and find the answer to the problem themselves. To many people looking for the quick answer to solve all the problems of the world.

Rod

Hi Rod,

I'm sure it was not your intention to lead anyone down a dangerous path, but if you are going to suggest or promote the idea of utilizing a dangerously reactive material such as magnesium, you really should do that in a way that makes the dangers very clear to all readers. This is an open public forum, and you have absolutely no idea who may be reading what you write - it could be a ten year old child for all you know. I'm just asking you, and any other posters, to be very careful about the manner in which you present an idea or method which is potentially dangerous. Steam too has its dangers, and is not something to be taken lightly. If you go back to the beginning of this thread and read through all of my posts you will see that I have pointed out the dangers of steam, as well as the precautions that should be taken, several times. When you advanced the idea of using magnesium, while neglecting to point out the dangers involved, I saw a definite need to alert readers to those dangers. So please - just be careful - that's all I'm asking for.

About the White Steam Car - we talked about that back in posts #102 and 103, and it truly was one of the finer commercially available steam cars of its day. As I said back in #102, using four or five heating coils to produce multi-stage superheated steam, along with an efficient condenser, made it very smooth running, powerful, and reliable. Still, it's no match for the Tesla steam turbine in terms of simplicity or efficiency, and the Tesla turbine doesn't even require a condenser. If you prefer the White engine, though, then by all means go for it - it still beats the efficiency of an ICE.

Best wishes,

Rick

Rick, right on the ball again.
A lot of us folks are learning things anew, by keeping up with this site.
But if people dont point out the obvious(to them) possible dangers anything can happen. Like, where did that hell-of-bang ! come from?

Many thanks Rick,
Regards, Bren.

Thanks, Bren. I hope that everyone who experiments with the concepts posted in this thread will work safe and stay safe. I urge everyone to read (or re-read) the suggestions and warnings that I stated in post #37 of this thread. Friction Steam Boiler

How's the weather where you are, Bren? As I write, it is 20F degrees below zero here this morning. I hope that I don't have to go outside for anything today!

Best regards,

Rick

Hells-bells! I guess you know eskimo-nell.
Nobody should have to live with temp's like that. I live in East Anglia these days, east coast UK. To is a little chilly, 45deg F, not minus!
Last week we went down to -5c, but that is rare.
You have my sympathy, get the 'balaclava and sea boot socks on'

A friction boiler would be handy. Regards, Bren.

Jeepers, Brenie!

45 F degrees would feel like summer right about now! We have had zero or below temperatures every night for the past two weeks, and wind chills to 40 below zero and lower. Had a pretty good dump of snow too, and it wasn't fun going out to clear that from my driveway with that bitter cold wind in my face. I have a weird sort of driveway, in that it is only about 20 feet from the street to my garage, but the driveway is about 60 feet wide to allow parking for 3 or 4 vehicles. No matter when I go out to clear up the snow, the city plow rig comes through right afterwards and dumps a huge snowbank back into my driveway. It's like they watch to see when I get it done, and ready to put my snow blower away, and then they swoop right in! It never fails.

I can definitely feel a touch of that old cabin fever setting in. Seems way too early for that, as we still have 3 months of cold weather ahead. It's a good time to be working on all those inside projects that you don't want to bother with once the weather gets warmer, so that's what I'll be doing for a while. How's it going with the rest of you folks?

Rick

It gets cold Here in Indiana too... but not that cold!! You're not alone in the belief that snow plows have spies telling then when someone's cleared their driveway. Or, they have GPS systems in the plow trucks, that show directions to clean driveways.. LOL I've even had it happen twice in one day.!! The stuff they deposit back in your drive is always much heavier than what Mother Nature put there..

That's for sure, Paul. And if you don't clear it off quickly then it doesn't take long to form into an unmovable, hard, icy mass. Don't you just hate that?

Has anyone successfully replicated this device? I plan on making an attempt, but would feel better if a few independent verifications could be made first.

Hi Little Old Lady,

I have heard from several people who have replication projects underway, and I have encouraged them to post construction details, photos, and video links in this thread. I would love to build one myself, but spent so much time working on this thread that winter moved in before I could get very much accomplished. My project will probably have to wait until summer, as I am currently straight out on prepping my home for sale. If I can find some extra time somehow, I will construct a small scale working model (perhaps 1/8 to 1/4 scale), and I highly suggest that as a first step for anyone contemplating a replication. With a scaled down replication, you can build your model at little cost. Testing and modifying your build will also be easier and less costly. Also, a small model such as this will be capable of doing some useful work such as space heating in a garage or small workshop, heating water for a hot water tank, or distilling water. If you build at 1/4 scale, you can use a rotor of 1.25" height and diameter made from an iron pipe, a 1/4 hp electric drive motor, and 1" x 1" x 4" pieces of green hardwood. So if you have the time, why not give that a try? You can probably round up most of the materials from your local recycling center, and keep your costs to a minimum. And please do share your results with us.

Best wishes to you,

Rick

Rick..
I finally got a "sky dive " account so I can post pics to the Forum.. Thanks for the advise. Here is a pic of my garage heater that I am constructing. Although, not a scaled down model, it will be rather compact in size, compaired to Llyods original design. I will post more results when completed.
Thanks
Paul
Idea W_Tesla Blower 2.jpg
T&T END VIEW.jpg

Rick,
I really like your design for a heater, though there is one problem that jumped out at me. You forgot to account for the change in the weight of the wood as it is burned. This will cause the amount of friction to vary over time as the pressure against the spinning disk would change with weight.

The combination with tesla turbine is a nice touch and would probably help prevent your bearings from getting too hot!

Disclaimer:
Read Post #37
This is a chemical reaction and all safety devices shall be used.

Do not use this unless you have the knowledge to do so.


This is a chemical reaction between water and Quicklime.
When these 2 are put together in small amounts you can produce steam.
The quicklime will react to the water and have a temp around 500*.
This will not produce any flames but has the potential heat that is required to produce steam.

I feel that you can do away with the mechanical part of this boiler.

You can then utilize the turbine aspect to the steam.

Turbine: By using the tubine compressor blades at different stages of compression you can speed up the steam as it passes through the turbine. The turbine can have a collector blade on the end...as the steam passes over it, the collector blades spins on a shaft.

The turbine shaft can then be connected to a pto, generator, ect...

Connect a small solar panel to dc motor with belt drive to spin the shaft of the turbine and it could run forever. This would also help pull the steam into the turbine compressor blades.

These are just my thoughts on how to do this in a different manner.


WOW maybe a way of wind turbine also!

Rod

Very nice!

Can you go one step further and use that hot air?

Little Old Lady,

Thanks for the comments. As far as your concern about the varying pressure, the wood blocks will be (3) 2x4 green oak pieces 10 to 12 inches in length. The steel weight will be 8 lbs. That should make the pressure about 12 lbs with new wood pieces and never less than 8 lbs at the end of the "burn". ( for the lack of a better word ). Hopefully, this should not vary the temperature a great deal. I will say one thing though, after the heater has run for a while, I'm sure I will have to remove the wood and let the roller cool before it is shut down completely. I can't see the wood sitting for long on top of the hot roller with out the air pumps cooling them. Can we say "Fire in the Hole".
One thing that does have me a little concerned, is the ash residue left over after the "burn" ( for the lack of a better word) Will the air pumps pick it up and blow it on the garage floor. What will the temperature of this ash be after going thru the exhaust turbine??? Won't know that till it's built. It may not be a concern at all..?? Might need to put somekind of spark arrestor on the exhaust ports..?? Hoping the Tesla air pumps move enough air to keep the temperature on the inside below 300 degrees, well below the ignition point of oak.. but plenty of heat for the garage.. Gonna have to finish it before I can answer these question..
Thanks again, glad you liked it.

Paul

Can you go one step further and use that hot air?


RSC..
What did you have in mind???

Paul

It looks like quicklime is $61 per metric ton (2002 price), unfortunately it seems like a very dangerous substance.

I was running some numbers...

1 cord of dried wood costs $150 to $200 dollars (in the city) and contains 26,000,000 BTU of heat which translates into about 7420 KWH if you can do 100% efficient conversion. Lets assume that the friction heater is 90% efficient at transferring wood to heat and that a tesla turbine is 40% efficient at turning heat to electricity then that means that we could get 2700 KWH or generate $270 of electricity from 1 cord of wood ($0.10/KWH)

Now I know that a normal steam engine can reach 25 to 30% efficiency if you recycle the waist heat vs (5 to 10% eff. if you don't). I would expect you could get slightly higher total efficiency doing the same thing with tesla turbine.

So there you have it, we should be able to generate electricity for about $0.075 per KWH at $200 per cord... I think we can get wood for about $100 per cord in the country and even cheaper for fresh (unseasoned wood). So even if our electric conversion is less than 20% eff or the friction heater is less than 80% eff then we could still be "on par" with the electric company.

At $70 profit per cord of wood, it would require 4 cords of wood per work day to replace the average household income. At the rate the friction heater "burns" wood, we would need a VERY BIG one to burn 4 cords of wood per day!

I would assume that you could get freshly cut, unprocessed raw logs for $25 to $50 per "cord" and thus reduce the number of cords to about 1/2 of a cord of wood per day to replace the average household income. This all assumes that the electric company will buy energy from you at the same price you pay for it.

Note: I assume that the power used to turn the motor is mostly converted into friction heat and does not need to come from the heat of the wood. I also assume that the turbine turns the shaft after it is started so there is no mech->elec->mech conversion losses.

I am asking you if you could use the hot air coming out of the heater for an extra source of energy.

Maybe you could spin a blade connected to a dc generator...Every bit of free energy helps even is small amount. yes!

Great numbers, now do the number for my sugestion!!!!

You have to use energy to create your steam yes. It also requires alot of WOOD CHOPPING...build up some muscles yes. 4 cords per day...not for me.

This system was used in the ancient Egypt. Why not figure out a way to use it today.