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  #31  
Old 10-06-2008, 11:03 PM
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Reply to Jan H

Hi Jan,

You are speaking of a Cavitation Heater. That device works well, but is relying on turbulence in water to cause the friction that creates steam. Lloyd's device uses direct contact friction, and appears to be an even more powerful concept. The manufacturer's of the cavitation heater make it clear that theirs is not an over-unity device, as was claimed in the YouTube videos. In their applications, an electric motor turns the cavitation heater's shaft. It does not produce a high enough volume of steam to make it a self-runner, powered by a steam engine. Lloyd's device, though, can actually do this, and with steam to spare.

Thanks for your interest,

Rick
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  #32  
Old 10-07-2008, 06:42 AM
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2nd phone conversation with Lloyd Tanner today

Hi folks,

I just completed my second conversation with Lloyd Tanner, and have some more information to share with you concerning his Friction Boiler.

Please refer to the diagram shown at the following link for a clearer understanding of the terms that I use to describe the parts I am speaking of: Trough Assembly.jpg - Windows Live SkyDrive

About the trough: The purpose of the trough is to house the apparatus used in generating heat from friction. The trough is not completely airtight as constructed by Lloyd, but the trough covers do have a close fit to the trough to help contain heat that is generated inside the trough. It would appear, from watching the video of Lloyd's device ( Lloyd Tanner - Friction Boiler ) that steam is generated by dropping water on top of the hot metal hub which is spinning at the center of the trough, but this is not actually the case. All steam is generated inside the steam vessel box, located directly above the hub. The metal hub is only used to gather and dissipate heat from friction caused by the oak 4 x 4's pressing against the hub. So there is no pressure inside the trough, other than from heat expansion of the air inside. Thus, while the trough does need to be of rigid construction, it does not have to be constructed from heavy gauge material.

About the wood: Lloyd tells me that he chose oak because it was readily available to him. He uses green wood - not dried wood. As I stated earlier, that seems to make sense. The moisture in the wood helps to prevent ignition of the wood.

About feeding of the wood, and maintaining a steady friction force:
The wood is placed on top of a "carriage" assembly in the bottom of the trough that allows the wood to move towards the metal hub with ease. Lloyd didn't explain the composition of the carriage itself, but it could simply be some mounted rollers or some steel balls sandwiched between sockets in two plates. The carriage itself does not move, or it would be forced against the metal hub. Angle iron is used at the back end of the wood to hold it from swaying side to side, and the angle iron would best have a short tail that rides a groove to keep it centered in the trough. A cable would be attached to the front end of the tail, and lay in the groove ahead of the tail. The cable would loop over a pulley and be attached to a 10 pound weight which would freely move within the vertical stand constructed below the center of the trough. The 10 pound weight, pulling the cable attached to the angle iron, is what keeps the force equal at all times, pressing the wood against the metal hub until a stop block in the groove prevents further travel so that the angle iron cannot touch the metal hub. The steady blocks, as seen in the diagram, are used to keep the front ends of the wood pieces aligned to the center of the rotating metal hub. Otherwise, the rotation would push the front end sideways, in the direction of rotational contact.

About the steam vessel box: The steam vessel box is a fully enclosed unit that is mounted above the opening left over when the trough covers are closed. The bottom of the steam vessel box is situated 1/4 inch above the spinning metal hub. As the hub heats up from the friction of the wood pressed against it, the heat rises and is concentrated against the underside of the steam vessel box. Inside the box, a controlled water drip takes place. As the water droplets meet the hot lower inside surface of the box, they instantly explode into steam, and pressure builds within the box. A pressure gauge should be mounted on the steam vessel, as well as an over-pressure relief valve to allow excess steam pressure to escape. When the steam pressure and temperature reaches an adequate level, an outlet valve is opened at the top of the steam vessel box, and steam is then delivered to a steam engine input port, or to the circulating radiator or baseboard heating loop of a home heating system.

About the water delivery system for the steam vessel: Water entering the drip system inside the steam vessel is gravity fed from an enclosed container which Lloyd refers to as the "water reservoir." This would ideally be located close to, and slightly above, the steam vessel. The water inside the water reservoir must be at the same pressure as the steam inside the steam vessel, or it will not flow into the water dripper assembly. To accomplish this pressure equalization, two devices are utilized. First, a one-way check valve should be used in the water dripper supply pipe which comes from the water reservoir. This prevents steam pressure within the steam vessel from forcing water back into the water reservoir. Secondly, another pipe connects the steam vessel to the top of the water reservoir to allow steam pressure to equalize within the two chambers. The water reservoir is not filled completely with water. An air space is allowed for, above the water level in the reservoir, to accommodate some steam. This incoming steam is what equalizes pressure, and it also helps to pre-heat the water inside the reservoir. Eventually, of course, all the water inside the reservoir would be used up by the drip assembly, so the water level inside the reservoir must be raised before this happens. To accomplish this, a separate enclosed container, which Lloyd refers to as the "water hopper," is utilized. Ideally, the water hopper should be located higher than the water reservoir. I will not be absolutely certain how Lloyd accomplishes the water transfer between the water hopper and the water reservoir until I receive the drawing that he sent to me via US Mail today, but it works something like the following: The water hopper is filled by a supply line which comes from your household water line. A back-check valve is located in the water supply line, before the hopper, so that water may not be forced backwards through the supply line. A bleeder valve at the top of the hopper would allow air inside the enclosed container to be displaced by the water entering from the supply line. The water level inside the hopper is controlled by a float valve which shuts the supply line flow off, and which could also be utilized to trigger a shut off of the bleeder valve when the appropriate pre-determined level is reached. After the supply line and bleeder valve are shut, and if the water reservoir requires more water, a control valve closes the steam line between the steam vessel and the water reservoir. Next, a valve opens in one of the two lines between the water reservoir and the water hopper to allow steam pressure from the reservoir to enter the top of the water hopper. This reduces pressure inside the water reservoir, while increasing pressure in the hopper. When pressure is equalized in the hopper and reservoir, water flows out the lower part of the hopper and into the reservoir by gravity feed. A one-way valve in the lower line would prevent backflow into the bottom of the hopper at all times. The maintaining of desired water levels in the water hopper and the water reservoir can be something that occurs rather continuously, instead of at widely spaced intervals, much the same as the fuel level in a carburetor is controlled. The speed of replenishment would be aided by using 3/4" or larger piping lines between the hopper and the reservoir, versus using smaller sizes.

About the electric motor used in the video: Lloyd used the electric motor to spin the metal friction hub for all experiments, development, and demonstrations of this device. He says he used a 1 horsepower, 110 volt AC motor which turned the hub at about 1700 rpm. This sounds like a common induction motor, which would be rated at 1800 rpm. The low horsepower rating of the motor demonstrates the fact that little drag is actually caused by the friction, but a 2 or 3 hp motor would probably be desirable to allow extended running times without overheating. The motor does not need to run continuously, and can be triggered by a thermostatic switch to shut off when the steam reaches a certain temperature and pressure level. A pulley on the motor shaft drives a belt, which in turn drives a pulley on the hub shaft.

About the hub and hub shaft: The shaft is 1 inch diameter steel, and is mounted in upper and lower bearings and attached to the bottom of the hub. The hub is made from a 5 inch diameter piece of "thick walled pipe," which is capped by top and bottom plates that are welded to the pipe. The overall height of the hub would be 4 inches or more, to provide a friction surface for the 4 inch square cut oak wood. The hub is elevated to a position where its top surface is 1/4 inch from the bottom of the steam vessel.

Lloyd is sending me some detailed drawings and explanations that will help us to better understand the valving and drip system that he is employing in his water boiler, and I expect to receive these within the next couple of days. I will post a link to these as soon as I receive and upload them to my Sky Drive. This second conversation with Lloyd makes everything much clearer to envision and understand, and with the drawings in hand it should provide us with enough basic information to build replications.

Best to all,

Rick
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Last edited by rickoff; 10-09-2008 at 12:06 AM. Reason: corrected the "hopper" and "reservoir" labels, which were previously reversed
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  #33  
Old 10-07-2008, 03:34 PM
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Thank you Rick for posting this, now I understand everything.
I still think that my oil heat transferring method could be more efficient than transferring the heat just through an 1/4" air gap. Plus you will make additional heat from the oil turbulences and friction against the cylinder walls. I have not tried that, but maybe you can suggest this to Loyd?

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  #34  
Old 10-07-2008, 06:29 PM
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Reply to Jetijs:

Hi Jetijs,

I'm glad the last post made everything clearly understood. I too think that the heat transfer from the hub to the steam vessel may possibly be improved upon, as some of the heat would appear to be escaping to, and dissipated within, the trough. Of course if you are using the device to heat a home then that doesn't matter, unless the unit is located in a shed or garage that is separated from your home. Lloyd did suggest that it may be best to locate it that way because of the fact that the friction does generate some noise that would tend to be undesirable. Whether placed in a basement, boiler room, or a garage, Lloyd says it would be wise to soundproof the installation area as much as possible.

The heat transfer method, using oil, does work nicely, and that may be worth experimenting with if using the hub design as shown in the video. The horizontal roller design, that Lloyd is currently working on, would not be as easily adapted. I did mention the oil transfer idea to Lloyd during our telephone conversation. You did show a diagram, in post # 12 of this thread, showing the basic concept. Of course the air space shown open at the top would have to be sealed to retain the heat generated, and to prevent oil from escaping. The steam vessel box would have to be mounted higher than in Lloyd's device, and the bottom would be a cylindrical projection entering the cylinder that would be attached to the hub top. Perhaps you could toss the idea around and come up with a nice drawing showing how all of this might best be accomplished. Another, easier method, but perhaps less effective, would be to build the hub an inch or two higher than the design, and simply position a sleeve over the top of the hub which would be connected to the underside of the steam vessel. Since the hub is actually a pipe, the top does not need to be capped off as in Lloyd's design, and you would have a direct heat conduit. Many ways to handle the heat transfer, but you are certainly correct in your thinking - retaining heat that would otherwise be lost (to the steam generating process) could make this already amazing device even more efficient.

The trough assembly diagram, which I posted a link to, is just for illustrating the basic assembly. I'll post additional drawings soon to show more detailed views of the components, and will work out some approximated dimensions for a build. Once that is done, I hope that someone will step forward and work up some nice CAD drawings with 3D, cutaway, and exploded views. Everone wanting to build one of these devices will undoubtedly have some ideas of their own for improvements, and I do hope that this information will be shared freely. In any case, let's keep everything together in this thread so that all is easily found.

Best to all,

Rick
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Last edited by rickoff; 10-08-2008 at 06:19 PM. Reason: sp
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  #35  
Old 10-07-2008, 06:37 PM
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Rick,

Does this guy want to patent this, or is he willing to share with the world?

Thank you for giving all the details you have. I am extremely interested in his second device.

Would like to know the downsides of this device, I imagine you would have to get approval for running a steam device for local authorities... But that said, looks so promising especially using green wood.

Mart
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  #36  
Old 10-07-2008, 07:38 PM
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Hi Rick,

The information that you have already shared is more than I ever expected. It seems that "Lloyd Tanner's" friction boiler is becoming more popular than I ever imaged, he may very well go into the history books for his invention.

The motor in his video looks like a AC induction split phase capacitor start which should have the high starting torque required for this application, and a 1 horsepower would only require a 20 amp 120 volt circuit.

Has he indicated the operating pressure of this unit, it would help in the type of bearing assembly used in the trough construction. The bearing would have to withstand the operating temperature and pressure so as not to loose the lubrication with a integral lip seal or a added one for sealing.

This device is so simple similar to a DC Motor set of brushes running on a commutator, Lloyd Tanner definitely has my gratitude for his hard work and innovation.

Thank's for your efforts,
Glen
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Last edited by FuzzyTomCat; 10-07-2008 at 09:01 PM. Reason: spelling
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  #37  
Old 10-08-2008, 12:44 AM
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A reminder to experimenters:

Just a reminder that although we are discussing facts as related to Lloyd Tanner's original full scale working prototype, as seen in the video, it is very strongly suggested that anyone considering a replication of the device start with a hobby size scaled down project. This way, you will have something equally as good for experimentation and demonstration purposes, and any experimental design changes will be far less costly and complicated to perform. A small project is the best way to proceed with this while discovering and learning from this technology. Instead of oak 4x4's, you can use some small diameter hardwood dowels against a small, revolving metal roller to produce the friction effect. Maple dowels, the size of piano hammer shanks, would be ideal. Think small! And if you decide to implement a steam engine, start with a simple hobby type engine such as can readily be found on Ebay. You can buy one for about $50, and later you could resell it for about the same if you want to.

I can't emphasize enough the need for safety, especially if utilizing steam in your experimentation, and I feel it is important to restate what I said about that in post #8 of this thread. Pressurized steam can be very dangerous, and every possible precaution should be utilized to minimize the hazards. Use only enough heat as needed to develop sufficient steam to drive the engine at a reasonably effective speed, and employ over-pressure relief valving and automatic steamer shut-off to prevent excessive pressure buildup. A steam accident can scald, burn, scar, disfigure, and even kill you. Be aware of the dangers, and stay safe. Let that be your #1 priority.

Rick
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  #38  
Old 10-08-2008, 08:26 AM
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Replies:

Jetijs - In thinking more about the heat transfer between the hub top and the bottom of the steam vessel, I'm wondering just how effective the oil cannister idea would really be. It is an idea worth some experimenting with, and it does work to produce heat by cavitation effect, but if used in Lloy'ds device it is just possible that it may have a cooling effect. It's an unknown factor, and of course it will also complicate a build. For all we know, the 1/4" air gap in Lloyd's device may actually play a part in superheating the bottom of the steam vessel. The gap, on top of the spinning hub, may create a vortex - like a mini tornado - that actually sucks the heat upwards. Lloyd probably chose a 1/4" gap for a reason. He could have assembled the unit with a 1/16" gap if that would have worked better, and probably did experiment with the positioning for best results.

Mart - Lloyd didn't mention anything about patents. He has a lot of ideas for improvements, but feels that he doesn't have the expertise to bring all of this about. Lloyd says he is at the point now where he feels that he should turn this over to someone, or some group, that could develop and improve on the device and get it into production. I told Lloyd that our interest is to learn all that we can about his technology, and to share all info and R&D in an open source environment here in this forum for the benefit of all mankind. So he knows this, but was still happy to provide useful information and sketches to us. I'm just glad that we could learn all that we already have on it before TBP swoops in. The last thing that Lloyd said to me in our 2nd conversation was, "Go ahead and build it, and see what you can do with it, and spread the word about this to as many people as you can."

Glen - Lloyd hasn't performed a lot of measurements related to operating pressure, but did say he has operated up to around 560 degrees. The ideal operating temperature and pressure would be determined by what you want to do with the unit - heat air to replace a hot air furnace, heat water for domestic hot water and/or a baseboard heating system, or make steam to power a steam engine. Which bearing are you refering to inside the trough assembly? The hub shaft bearings are located below the trough, where heat would not be much of a problem. Remember too that there is no pressure to contend with inside the trough. Yes, the construction is similar to brushes riding against a spinning commutator.

By building a small demonstration unit of a self-runner, you could probably get your town administrators to try a pilot project, such as a unit for heating their maintenance garage facility. With that working well, the idea could be enlarged to provide cogeneration of all heat and electrical power used by not only the maintenace department, but also to police, fire, town offices, and schools. This is exactly the idea that Lloyd's congessman is trying to get appoval for, and it could save a ton of money that would otherwise be spent on conventional heat and elecricity. Taxpayers, in turn, would also reap the benefit of lowering costs. In time, an entire town could be supplied by a single large scale device. Speaking of cogeneration, Con Edison uses 7 steam turbine power plants to supply electricity not only to all of Manhattan and beyond, but also to provide steam heat to 100,000 of Manhattan's commercial buildings and residences.

Well, guess I'd better hit the sack. Good night or good morning to you, whatever the case may be.

Best wishes,

Rick
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Last edited by rickoff; 10-12-2008 at 10:27 PM. Reason: sp
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  #39  
Old 10-08-2008, 08:25 PM
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A surprise phone call today....

This morning, when I picked up and answered my ringing telephone, I was quite surprised to hear a voice, in a slow Texas drawl, saying, "Hello, this is T Boone Pickens calling." I immediately thought that he must be calling me about Lloyd's device, or the fact that we had mentioned TBP's name with some concern earlier in this thread. Before I could get a another word in, though, he continued speaking and I then realized that what I was hearing was simply a recorded message from the Pickens Plan Group asking me to become a member of their organization. They ask for your e-mail address at the end of the recorded message, and of course I didn't offer it to them. Has anyone else received one of these calls?

I should mention something else which concerns my recent phone calls with Lloyd. In both calls that I made to him, there were loud clicks that I could hear at regular intervals. This was caused by some interference in the phone connection, and definitely not background noise. I have never heard this in conversations with other people. It made me wonder if perhaps our conversation was being tapped by someone. Seems like a rather unprofessional way to go about that, though, if it is actually the case. Then again, I believe there are FCC rules about wiretapping that require an audible signal to occur at regular intervals when a telephone conversation is being recorded. Has anyone else experienced this? I'm just curious. It's probably nothing. After all, we're not talking about top secret technology. The basic friction technology used in this device is common knowledge, and the processes for making and utilizing steam are well documented. The only thing about Lloyd's device that remains a mystery at this point in time is the actual mechanisms employed within his steam vessel for converting water to steam. According to Lloyd, it is unlike any conventional designs that he is aware of. Fortunately, we will soon have a better idea about these mechanisms. I have just now received Lloyd's hand drawn sketches and explanations, and will prepare them for posting later today.

Rick
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  #40  
Old 10-09-2008, 12:50 AM
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Sketches and info from Lloyd Tanner

Hi folks,

As stated in my earlier post today, I received the documents that Lloyd sent to me via US mail. Thank goodness we can depend on at least one of our government's institutions!

In my previous explanation of Lloyd's device, as described in post #32 of this thread, I pretty much had everything right. In the sketches that Lloyd sent, however, the "water reservoir" and "water hopper" items are the reverse of how I labeled them in post #32, so I went back in and corrected that with an edit today. I also corrected the Explanatory Document on my Sky Drive, which is basically the same as post #32. I copied Lloyds 2 sketches, and uploaded them to my Sky Drive in 100 dpi resolution, and added his comments to the Info from Lloyd file on my Sky Drive. See all of this at the following link: Lloyd Tanner's Friction Heater - Windows Live SkyDrive

Happy viewing, and best to all,

Rick
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  #41  
Old 10-09-2008, 01:17 AM
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Thought...

I would post the pics here in a format easy to see.





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Old 10-09-2008, 02:48 AM
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To Mart:

Thanks, Mart. I didn't think that I would have enough upload space left in the forums to do that. This is better for an overall rapid view. For printing, though, folks will probably prefer the individual file downloads in 8.5" x 11" full view, high-resolution format at the link given earlier.

As can be seen at the bottom of the System rear view sketch, Lloyd's plan uses a series of small rollers beneath the oak log. The bottom of the steam vessel is concave in the new friction roller assembly design, so as to partially wrap around the friction roller. The bottom is also finned, to provide multiple heat paths that surround the channeled water drips on three sides. It is clear, from looking at the Sytem side view sketch, that each of the water drip mechanism's drip holes is aligned so that each drip falls directly into its own separate channel. This, and the properly controlled rate of drip, assures that each drip is fully exploded into steam before the next drip falls into a channel.

Keep in mind that these are merely sketches, and that the relative sizes of the components are not shown in actual proportions. This is meant for illustrative purposes only, and simply to define the major components.

Rick
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Old 10-09-2008, 02:56 AM
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RE: Thanks

I think you will like the link of

TinyPic - Free Image Hosting, Photo Sharing & Video Hosting

That is what I used, much better than imageshack.com had a tip that some virus checkers report viruses from their adds, they have been found to be false positives, but TinyPic - Free Image Hosting, Photo Sharing & Video Hosting is the way to go....

And THANK YOU for doing all of this.
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Old 10-09-2008, 03:31 AM
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Hey Rick,

This is some really good information on the drip system that Lloyd Tanner is using on his new device. Is he abandoning the trough design or just is expanding his research into other systems?

It appears that just by modifying the trough design to be wider just at the metal rotating hub it would be possible to extend the steam vessel box around the radius of the metal rotating hub at 90 degrees to the wood, maintaining the 1/4" or less on the top and the sides of the hub, this could add maybe 100 % more area of heat transfer to the steam vessel box.

As soon as I get some more parts rounded up I'll be starting construction on one of the rascals.

Hopefully some drawings of what I'm doing will be available as soon as I find and dust off my old drafting stuff.

Thanks,
Glen
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Old 10-09-2008, 07:56 PM
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Some clarifications:

First I want to remind everyone that the sketches which Lloyd provided are representations of his newer roller design, and not the hub design as shown in the video clip. The water drip system components would be the same for both systems, excepting the bottom design of the steam vessel.

Glen - Lloyd's newer friction roller design does not abandon the trough system. The entire trough length is simply made to be as wide as the roller. This, of course, allows several pieces of wood to be aligned against the roller on either side of the trough, therefore multiplying the frictional heating effect. Lloyd's drawing only shows one piece of wood, because that is all that is needed for a simplified illustration.

For the original hub design, as seen in the video, the steam vessel design could be modified to use a waffle grid type of bottom plate with a rounded shape that would be the same diameter as the hub. I'm not certain if electric waffle maker plates have pockets on the unexposed side that correspond to the projections of the cooking side, but if so then they would make nice heat exchangers. If used, a waffle plate would serve as the inside bottom of the steam vessel. To do that, you basically cut a hole in the bottom of the steam vessel box, the same size as the waffle plate assembly, and weld the waffle plate assembly into place. Each water drip would be aligned to fall in a specific pocket of the upper waffle plate surface. This would make a simple, low cost heat exchanger, and of course many other ideas could be employed for the same purpose. I'm just thinking in terms of what would be fairly simple to accomplish, using the KISS approach.

Another thing to consider is the fact that you don't need to create steam unless you are intending to utilize a steam engine or steam turbine, and that would only be needed if you want a self-runner that is capable of driving an electric generator. Lloyds device could rather easily be adapted for home heating use either with a forced hot air heating system, or a hot water baseboard or radiator system. Usage simply for heating would not require much. Replacing, or adding to, a forced hot air heating system, would be the simplest utilization of all, and would only require setting the unit up with sheet metal ductwork above it that attaches to the existing system. For domestic hot water heating, and/or baseboard heating, the pipe used for the hub can be extended upwards several inches, and a larger diameter pipe could be placed over this with sufficient spacing between the pipes to allow for a copper tubing coil, or coils, to be wrapped around the hub pipe extension. Water inside the coil (or coils) would circulate upwards due to heat, and each coil would lead to the top of a hot water tank. Cooler water at the bottom of each tank would flow into the coil or coils to be heated. No circulation pump is needed. It's just a natural convection effect, and something that most of our grandparents, and great grandparents used for making hot water back in their time. I have used this method by wrapping a 3/4" copper tubing coil around the outside of a kerosene stove's 10" high burner assembly, and it worked great. I see no reason why it could not be easily adapted to Lloyd's device. If the outside surface of the larger pipe is well insulated, you could concentrate a lot of heat within the pipe column, and produce a lot of hot water. Peter has also suggested another method for heating water with Lloyd's device, by utilizing the interior of the hub pipe as a portion of a closed loop system. A liquid would be heated as it circulates through the interior of the hub pipe, and would then progress to a heat exchanger, which would be used to transfer the heat to a tank of water. The loop would continue back to the bottom of the hub pipe, returning cooler liquid. The liquid could be oil, if the hot water storage tank is used for baseboard heating purposes, but should not be used for domestic water heat exchange unless the heat exchanger method and construction elimates any possibility of coil contamination of water due to a possible future deterioration and leakage or rupture of the heat exchanger components. It should also be noted that if a liquid is circulated through the interior of the hub pipe, then it must enter at the bottom (and exit at the top) of the pipe while the pipe is revolving. This would require the use of couplers at the top and bottom that would allow for the rotation of the hub pipe. These couplers would add complexity to the build, and I would not suggest building your own. Couplers are manufactured for this purpose, and are called rotary unions. Peter provided me with a link where such a device can be seen: Duff-Norton, Rotary Unions, Mechanical Actuators, Screw Jacks, Linear Actuators, Ball Screw Actuators, Electromechanical Actuators, Machine Screw Actuators, Rollerscrews, SuperCylinder, Electric Cylinders
Purchasing a ready made coupler of this type would save a lot of time and hassle, but may also prove to be expensive.

These are just a few ideas to get people thinking about the possibilities for utilizing Lloyd's device for practical applications. I'm sure that many more equally good, or better, ideas will surface, and I encourage readers and experimenters to share their thoughts, methods, and results in this thread for all to see. Remember, we are at the early, or "think tank" stage of R&D for this device, and all suggestions are welcomed. The only dumb suggestion is the one that is not made known. We also welcome any questions, and will attempt to answer these to the best of our ability.

Best wishes to all,

Rick
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Old 10-10-2008, 10:20 PM
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More info on the caviation heating..

I found the patent for this device. Thought we might consider some of the ideas of the patent.. for the friction heater.

Patent number: 5188090
Filing date: Apr 8, 1991
Issue date: Feb 23, 1993
Inventor: James L. Griggs
Assignees: Hydro Dynamics, Inc.

Apparatus for heating fluids - Google Patents

Also a VERY nice thread over on overunity.com some one replicated this pump successfully.

Hydrosonic Pump
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Old 10-11-2008, 01:19 AM
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Hi Rick & all,

thanks for bringing my attention to this topic Rick.

I have many projects at this time and will keep an eye on this as it does interest me but I have to complete other thing before starting something new.

I my opinion, I don't think the device needs to be so big. What I have to offer is video's that I have posted before.

All one need to do is study the effect and mechanism of the pistol shrimp (video's below). I believe it is a natural occurrence and it give out more heat energy then needed to create the effect. Once you find the way to make the effect, you make a steam turbine by using the aluminum side of a ICE Turbo Charger $10. used on eBay: eBay Motors: Eclipse TD05 Turbocharger Turbo Charger Parts/Rebuild (item 400001745123 end time Oct-16-08 17:56:03 PDT) and cut open the steel side to attach a crankshaft to drive the cavitation plunger.

Pistol Shrimp Video's:

YouTube - Pistol Shrimp

YouTube - Snapping Shrimp

Luc
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Old 10-11-2008, 04:44 AM
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Re: Wood as friction material vs other?

@ All

Was just having a random thought and thought I'd share it with you all.

What if instead of wood we used another available resource? Is there a soft enough stone out there that could replace the wood used and not wear down the friction rotor? I myself wonder if slate would not be a good alternative?

BTW: Still having a tough time the steam pressure chamber on the rotor and the trough, how are they separated or are they?

Regards,
Paul
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Old 10-11-2008, 05:12 AM
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Originally Posted by theremart View Post
I found the patent for this device. Thought we might consider some of the ideas of the patent.. for the friction heater.
Hi Mart,

What ideas of the Griggs/Hydro Dynamics patent do you feel would be applicable to Lloyd's friction heater? Basically, the "Hydrosonic Pump," which is the generic label used most often to identify the Griggs cavitation heater, has to be driven to rotation by an external device, such as an electric motor, engine, or turbine. Are you thinking of driving the hydrosonic pump with an electric motor to build up an initial head of steam to get a steam engine started? If so, it seems that you could just as well use an electric motor to directly start the friction hub rotating, as Lloyd does in the video. You may, however, be thinking of an entirely different use for the pump. Could you expand on those thoughts, please? All ideas are welcome.

Thanks, and best wishes to you,

Rick
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Old 10-11-2008, 06:40 AM
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Reply to Gotoluc:

Hi Luc,

I have been following your ideas, and watched the pistol shrimp video that you linked to in the Water Sparkplug thread. While that is very interesting, and certainly deserves study, I think it is going to be quite some time before the secret of that natural phenomenon's mechanism can be revealed and put to practical usage. Lloyd Tanner's friction boiler, on the other hand, is a device that could be replicated and used for heating this winter.

The idea of using the radial turbine of a discarded turbocharger unit as a steam turbine is a good one, but the turbine rotor would be rather small, and not develop much torque. Great for a miniaturized replication, though, of the type I have suggested that people start with. It would require some pretty good torque to drive a hydrosonic pump with the turbine shaft, as you suggest. And where would the steam, that is needed to run the turbine, come from? The hydrosonic pump is capable of making steam, but not in an amount and pressure that would allow the pump/turbine unit to be a self-runner. Lloyd's device, coupled to a steam engine rated between 1 and 3 hp, would allow for self-running once an initial head of steam is supplied to start the steam engine, and will continue running as long as wood is loaded and water is supplied. Yes, Lloyd's device is somewhat large in scale, but so are the results that it produces, and I think most homeowners would be happy to accomodate the unit in their cellar, garage, or outbuilding. I know that I will be.

Don't get me wrong, Luc. I have always liked the hydrosonic pump idea for cavitation heating of water, and several months ago suggested using a 12 coil Bedini machine's shaft power to drive one for the purpose of heating household water (in addition to providing household electric power). Ren's window motor would probably also be a good candidate for that application. Likewise, an ICE, capable of running on water as fuel, would also be excellent for driving a hydrosonic pump, but I don't think we will get that far before winter sets in. The greatest problem in all such applications, though, is the pump itself. Fabricating a well made and highly efficient hydrosonic pump requires a well equipped machine shop. If you don't have one, then you would have to pay someone else to machine the parts to your design. And either way it is an expensive endeavor. If I had one (hydrosonic pump) available, I would hook it up to an electric motor tomorrow and put it to good use making hot water to circulate through my boiler's heat exchanger loop. My oil fired boiler uses an electric motor to run the burner blower unit anyways, so using that motor to drive a hydrosonic pump instead would be nice.

Lloyd's basic device, as shown in the video, could be constructed at modest cost with readily available materials, and I can think of several ways to use it efficiently to heat water at very low expense. I just think it is a timely solution to staying warm this winter, and rolling back home energy costs while we continue working on other technologies.

Thanks for your input Luc, it is always welcomed and appreciated. Best wishes to you,

Rick
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Old 10-11-2008, 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Burned_NE2 View Post
What if instead of wood we used another available resource? Is there a soft enough stone out there that could replace the wood used and not wear down the friction rotor? I myself wonder if slate would not be a good alternative?
Hi Paul,

You can certainly experiment with different materials, and I would encourage that just to see what results will be realized. Green (unseasoned) hardwood does appear to work quite well, though. Are you thinking in terms of saving a tree, or just exploring what may possibly work better than wood? Right now it is anybody's guess, and something that really hasn't been determined. I would tend to think that a stone of sufficient thickness to make use of full frictional hub height contact might be rather difficult to lift, load, and secure, whereas the wood 4 x 4's make loading quite simple. Also, even a fairly soft stone would tend to wear down the metal hub by grinding action. If you do some experimenting with differing materials, please record and report your results in this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burned_NE2 View Post
BTW: Still having a tough time the steam pressure chamber on the rotor and the trough, how are they separated or are they?
See "About the steam vessel box" section of post #32.

Thanks for your interest,

Rick
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Old 10-11-2008, 12:37 PM
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Hi rickoff,

I guess I was just trying to think of a more durable material that would last longer in the trough than using wood but you're probably correct as far as wearing down the rotor and would be heavy but slate is a fairly soft material compared to metal and is really abundant in my neck of the woods, I guess only experimenting (on a small scale) will tell on that one

I've re-read the posts and looked at the diagrams and video on the construction but still fail to see how the trough is isolated from the rotor, seems like the whole trough assembly would need to be sealed tight as it is part of the steam chamber and rotor assembly. Somehow my mind is being stubborn and can't seem to visualize how to separate both of these as well as the steam pressure on the rotor bearing

Regards,
Paul
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Old 10-11-2008, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickoff View Post
Hi Mart,

What ideas of the Griggs/Hydro Dynamics patent do you feel would be applicable to Lloyd's friction heater? Basically, the "Hydrosonic Pump," which is the generic label used most often to identify the Griggs cavitation heater, has to be driven to rotation by an external device, such as an electric motor, engine, or turbine. Are you thinking of driving the hydrosonic pump with an electric motor to build up an initial head of steam to get a steam engine started? If so, it seems that you could just as well use an electric motor to directly start the friction hub rotating, as Lloyd does in the video. You may, however, be thinking of an entirely different use for the pump. Could you expand on those thoughts, please? All ideas are welcome.

Thanks, and best wishes to you,

Rick
The objective of the objective of the Friction heater is to produce steam, perhaps if we use cavitation to produce the steam instead of the wood we could eliminate the wood altogether, the Briggs pump is rated with a Cop of 1.5 per the patent.

Since someone over at overunity.com has been successful at duplicating the Briggs pump, perhaps one could loop the steam engine with the Briggs pump using the propane the jump start the process.

Or one could extend the shaft so one could have both processes going on at once. One side using friction heat... or ... have a PTO from a tractor on the steam engine, so you could switch to either process on the fly... by connecting to either setup you had.

The main problem I see with this whole setup is you could not walk away from it. Steam is too dangerous to leave running itself.

I also looked at Jetijs setup and thought what if you were to introduce cavitation to that setup, would that not make the oil heat up faster?
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Old 10-11-2008, 08:08 PM
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Rick - Design Clarification ?

Hi Rick,

In the tradition of "R & D" I have made some sketches of the "Rotor Assembly" and a idea for a "Stuffing Box" to limit possible debris from exiting the Trough Assembly.

As always this is for evaluation and possible changes but this is the conception I have came up with so far in the Lloyd Tanner Friction Steam Boiler.

Any suggestions or comments ..... anyone.

Thanks,
Glen
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File Type: jpg Rotor.jpg (233.2 KB, 114 views)
File Type: jpg Stuffing Box.jpg (140.8 KB, 94 views)
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Old 10-11-2008, 10:32 PM
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Reply to Glen:

Hi Glen,

Thanks for the drawings. The first one is a good cutaway view of Lloyd's friction hub design, showing attachment of the hub to the 1" hub shaft, and the location of the steam vessel in relation to the hub.

The second drawing shows your concept for handling the underside of the trough in the area where the hub shaft passes through the trough bed. The only problem I see in this concept is that the upper hub shaft bearing should really be mounted as close to the hub as possible in order to provide for best support of the shaft and rotor, and to reduce vibrational chatter. The hub shaft will tend to accumulate and transfer heat to the bearing, so this is something to consider. Bearings less prone to heat damage would be preferred, and employing methods for cooling the bearing may be wise.

There is a small amount of ash created in the trough as the wood chars and wears down, but Lloyd says that the ash is easily cleaned out. There would be no other debris created. When the wood 4 x 4's are worn to their limit, all you have left is a wood block 4" x 4" x 1/4" thickness, which can be tossed into a wood stove or otherwise discarded.

Thanks again for the drawings,

Rick
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Old 10-12-2008, 12:46 AM
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Over-Unity Possibility

Rickoff & All, I see the possibility for an over-unity system with the friction boiler design. It might be possible to build this sytem to generate your steam needed to run a steam turbin that in turn would drive an electrical gernerator to in turn run your electric motor that drives the friction hub. You could in turn use the exhaust steam from the turbine to heat your home or make hot water for household needs. You would need, of course a starter system to get things running. I could see a battery bank for storage of the needed electricity to get the system up and running. You could also incorporate solar to keep the battery bank topped off, so to speak. Is there any indication from the inventor what the COP might be? I just don't think it is to much of a streach to believe a system like this could do all of the things described.
I think in a way you are extracting the BTU's inherent in the oak wood yet you are not causing it to combust. I wonder if soaking the wood in water for some time before putting it into the system would add to the efficency of the system or possibly slow the consumption of the wood. Friction is the number one enemy of mechanical devices. Why not put that enemy to work for our good and I see that is what the inventor has done here. So clever with so much potential. Why not also use some of that extra turbine output shaft energy to drive a SSG to charge the batteries with a good cold charge instead of a hot charge. Wow, so many possibilities as to what you can do once you have generated the steam! it is just a matter of putting that steam to work.

Stephen
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Old 10-12-2008, 07:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burned_NE2 View Post
Hi rickoff,
I've re-read the posts and looked at the diagrams and video on the construction but still fail to see how the trough is isolated from the rotor, seems like the whole trough assembly would need to be sealed tight as it is part of the steam chamber and rotor assembly. Somehow my mind is being stubborn and can't seem to visualize how to separate both of these as well as the steam pressure on the rotor bearing.
Hi Paul,

The trough is not isolated from the rotor, as the rotor (or hub, as I call it) is in the center of the trough. There is no steam pressure inside the trough. Heat is developed in the trough by friction of the wood 4 x 4's being pressed against the rotating hub, and that heat then rises to meet the underside of the steam vessel box. The steam vessel box is fully enclosed, and is only attached to the trough at the opening between the two trough covers. The trough covers should fit well, so as not to allow heated air to escape, but they do not need to be absolutely airtight. The steam vessel box should fit snugly over the trough covers and opening to maximize heat transfer to the steam vessel. If you click on the first drawing thumbnail at the bottom of post 54 I think this cutaway view will help you to understand the trough/rotor/steam vessel relationship better.

Please note that it is not necessary to create steam unless you plan to use a steam engine. Lloyd's friction boiler can optionally be utilized to heat air or to heat water to any specific temperature below the boiling point. I have described some suggested adaptations for these options in previous posts, and as soon as I have a little time on my hands I will post drawings that should help you to visualize these methods.

Best regards,

Rick
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Old 10-12-2008, 08:37 AM
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Reply to Kingman:

Hi Kingman,

Yes, I can see your mind is now whirling with ideas.

This device has so many possible adaptations that would work well. And you are right - there has been a lot of R&D work done in reducing friction, and in reducing heat of friction in adaptations where friction is employed (brakes, for example) but little has been done in developing the utilization of direct frictional heat production. Friction has generally been an engineering problem where rotating parts are concerned, but Lloyd's device turns that problem into a solution.

If the device is used to power a steam engine, then the engine's output shaft can power both the friction hub and an electric generator. If you already have a Bedini machine, battery storage bank, and an inverter, then you could certainly use that to run the 1 hp induction motor that would spin the hub during the start-up phase. If you don't already have all that gear, then you can simply plug the induction motor into the nearest 110 volt AC outlet. During a power outage, you could start up by using a propane burner to heat the friction hub or roller, and the steam vessel, as Lloyd plans to do in his newer build. It is good to have that option for a worst-case scenario. In all likelihood, you would probably already be running before a power outage occurs, and wouldn't be affected by it if using the steam engine - or a Bedini machine - to have a self-runner.

Yes, you could soak dry wood in water to give it the desired moisture content, but any unseasoned hardwood will do just fine and normally costs considerably less than seasoned, dry wood. Not that you have to worry about the cost, though, when a cord of wood will last you 5 years. This is so much more efficient than the traditional method of burning wood, coal, or other fuels, to produce heat and steam. If you burn anything then you need a chimney, and a huge amount of your heat production goes up the chimey as wasted hot air which is necessary to carry away the smoke and other exhaust gasses. Lloyds device contains and uses nearly all the heat that is produced, and that is what makes it so amazingly efficient.

Thanks for your participation in this thread, Stephen. If you should do some experimenting with Lloyd's friction machine, and I think you probably will, I hope that you will post some photos and operational data in this thread. Every time you do that, it is like stretching an arm out to help lift someone else up. Many people will read this thread, but most will probably not elect to experiment with this concept, or go on to build a full scale adaptation, unless some pioneers show the way and make things easy to understand and replicate. Lloyd's device, in its crudest form, is really a simple machine. I think that the key to developing this technology is to keep replications as simplified as is possible, while perhaps experimenting with small design changes. And as I have said before, design variations are so much easier (and less costly) to construct and test on a hobby sized replication. So keep that mind of yours whirling, and see what you can accomplish.

Good luck to you,

Rick
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Old 10-13-2008, 02:05 AM
Burned_NE2 Burned_NE2 is offline
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Thanks FuzzyTomCat for the drawings and rickoff for the explanations and patience

I was away yesterday and today and ran it across a good friend of mine (who loved the video) and we kept coming to the conclusion that the bottom of the steam vessel had to be closed so that the steam vessel only generated the pressure and the trough and bearing was isolated but couldn't see it in the previous posts or pictures until FuzzyTomCat's #1 drawings so thanks to you both

Regards,
Paul
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Old 10-13-2008, 11:28 PM
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Reply to Mart:

Quote:
Originally Posted by theremart View Post
The objective of the Friction heater is to produce steam, perhaps if we use cavitation to produce the steam instead of the wood we could eliminate the wood altogether, the Briggs pump is rated with a Cop of 1.5 per the patent.?
Hi Mart,

Although Lloyd's objective involves producing and utilizing steam, that is not a necessity if one merely wants to use the device for home heating purposes, by producing either hot air and/or hot water. If we do away with the wood, then we are no longer talking about Lloyd Tanner's friction device, and we would be assuming that a cavitation device is going to be more efficient. I think that assumption would be incorrect, for the following reasons:
1. Lloyd's device employs direct contact solid-against-solid friction, which is a far more efficient and powerful form of friction than solid-against-air or solid-against-liquid frictional methods. Lets say, for example, that you want to raise the temperature on the exterior surface of a 6 inch long piece of 3/8 inch steel pipe. For this experiment, let's use three separate pieces of steel pipe, threaded at each end, to which we have already tightened on an end cap, using thread sealant or teflon tape. For the direct friction experiment, go ahead and tighten another end cap on the open end of one pipe. For the air friction experiment, drop a steel ball or two (slightly less in diameter than the inside diameter of the pipe) inside one of the remaining pipes and then tighten an end cap over the open end. The third pipe should have a steel ball or two dropped inside, and then the remaining space nearly filled with water. Leave just enough air space to allow for some good turbulence to be produced by the steel balls, and then tighten on an end cap. Let each of the assembled units stand for several hours to ensure that all internal and external elements are at room temperature (let's assume 68 degrees F). Wearing a thick glove, to prevent any heat from your hand from influencing any of the pipes, first pick up the air friction test pipe. Holding it horizontally, begin moving your hand rapidly from side to side in a 6 inch span of movement. Do this for 1 minute, and then record the temperature of the pipe's exterior surface. Do the same experiment with the water filled pipe, and record that temperature measurement. For the direct friction experiment, use the same time period, hand motion, and exertion as used in the previous experiments, but use your gloved hand to rub the pipe surface with a piece of medium grit sandpaper, and record the temperature in the center of the area that was sanded. Compare your results, and you will see that the direct friction method produced far better results. Obviously this isn't a perfect experiment, but it will demonstrate that direct friction works better than cavitation.
2. Griggs formed a company, called Hydro Dynamics Inc, to develop and market his patent for the hydrosonic pump. The company did have plans to build and sell units for home heating installations, and in fact some units were so employed in the area surrounding the manufacturing facility and results were observed. The company has since abandoned their plans to sell home heating units, and have issued the following explanation concerning their hydrosonic pump, which is also called a Shockwave Power Reactor, or SPR:
"Thank you for your inquiry in regard to heating water and/or making steam. Our company no longer markets the device for these applications. Although the device is efficient, in most all water heating applications it is difficult to economically justify a device from a capital or operating point of view. The SPR is about 98% efficient from a shaft point of view and about 90% overall when coupled with a standard 92% efficiency motor, while standard boiler is about 87%, but gas or oil are generally 50% cheaper on a btu basis when compared to electricity, as electricity is an expensive and highly refined fuel when compared to gas, coal or oil. While electricity is competitive there are electrical resistance heaters that are much cheaper and approach 99% efficiency. When we heat fluids there generally has to be some mitigating factor to justify the premium in capital and operating cost. The system can heat water, but there are numerous competing technologies that can heat water and make steam that are much less capital intensive and often cheaper to operate. Because of this we ceased marketing home/residential heating systems and generic steam systems.

Douglas G. Mancosky, Ph.D
Director of Application Development
Hydro Dynamics, Inc"

Quote:
Originally Posted by theremart View Post
Since someone over at overunity.com has been successful at duplicating the Briggs pump, perhaps one could loop the steam engine with the Briggs pump using the propane the jump start the process.
That's the Griggs pump, actually, not Briggs. If I said Briggs in an earlier post then that was an error. The greatest problem with the hydrosonic pump is that Griggs holds the patent but does not manufacture a unit of the size you would want. To build one, you would need access to a well equipped machine shop and should be a skilled precision machinist. Even still, it is unlikely that you will achieve the same degree of efficiency as in a Griggs build, as this relies on factors related to the size, depth, angle, and spacing of the bores in the rotor - all of which are not disclosed. Even if you can achieve the same efficiency rate, after much experimentation and expense, it will still not be capable of producing enough steam to allow for a self-sustaining steam engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theremart View Post
Or one could extend the shaft so one could have both processes going on at once. One side using friction heat... or ... have a PTO from a tractor on the steam engine, so you could switch to either process on the fly... by connecting to either setup you had.
In view of what I have already stated above, it doesn't seem practical to couple a hydrosonic pump to the drive shaft of Lloyd's device. The overall efficiency would only be reduced by the additional drag caused by the pump, and the additional torque required to drive the shaft.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theremart View Post
The main problem I see with this whole setup is you could not walk away from it. Steam is too dangerous to leave running itself.
Yes, steam can be very dangerous, as I have previously pointed out, but needn't be dangerous if adequate safety precautions are utilized. Proper and adequate controls must be employed, just as they are required when using an oil fired boiler for home heating. The techiques involved are nearly identical. Both require thermostatic controls and a thermocouple device to maintain the on and off cycles in order to provide a consistent pressure and temperature within the boiler, and such controls are very reliable. In a worst case scenario, if the controls should fail to stop the boiler action when the desired water or steam temperature is reached, an overpressure relief valve (or, better yet, 2 or 3 of them) will engage to dump water and steam until pressure is normalized. Then too, if an air temperature thermostat is utilized, as is normally the case in a home heating system, it can be wired to prevent the device from running at all while the air temperature is at or above a set level. No one worries about their oil fired boiler exploding, and it would not be a concern with Lloyd's device either if adequate control and safety devices are employed. Incidentally, I recently purchased a Honeywell burner control unit on Ebay for just 99 cents - I was the only bidder! Honeywell R8182H Hydronic Heating Control - eBay (item 190253923574 end time Sep-26-08 19:35:27 PDT)
This unit was previously used, but works just fine. A new unit has a suggested retail price of more than 400 dollars!

Quote:
Originally Posted by theremart View Post
I also looked at Jetijs setup and thought what if you were to introduce cavitation to that setup, would that not make the oil heat up faster?
See Jetijs experiment at: My replication of the fuelless oil heater

It already uses cavitation as the method for heating the oil. If you stir some liquid in a cup, you are using cavitation, which is really just disturbing the liquid by creating a turbulence. For heating the liquid, the more turbulence you create, the greater the effect. The Griggs device uses cavitation, but also employs the borings on the rotor surface to create bubbles which are said to have a shockwave effect, upon collapse, that aids in heating the liquid. So yes, if Jetijs used such bores on the inner cylinder of his experimental device, that should make the oil heat up faster. It would be rather difficult to accomplish with the thin walled inner cylinder he is currently using. Keep in mind, too, that when shockwave processing is used, the liquid temperature is somewhat higher than the temperature of the rotor. That's good for heating the liquid, but the aim of that type of friction heater is to produce as much heat as possible by heating the air exposed surfaces of the two cylinders. Therefore, the method Jetijs is currently using, and having a relatively thin walled hollow rotor, is probably a better method for heating anything other than the liquid.

Thanks for your questions, Mart. I think that the answers will help many others to understand what is different about Lloyd's technique of creating heat, and why it is such an efficient process when compared to other methods. At first glance, Lloyd's device appears rather crude, and so we naturally tend to begin to think in terms of what can be done to improve upon it. My own feeling about that, though, is that we probably won't make it better by changing the methods, and that we should concentrate on relatively small changes that better contain and focus the derived heat. For example, a heat containment box could be constructed with walls that extend from the steam vessel box to the base of the trough, and would fully enclose the rotating metal hub. Cutouts, just slightly larger than the wood 4 x 4 dimensions, would be made in two sides of the containment box, allowing the wood to feed through the openings, and employing very light pressured scraping blades to restrict nearly all flow of heat into the troughs. With all heat development contained and focused in the center section of the trough, this would seem to produce even more amazing results than has already been demonstrated. I think that most readers will be able to visualize what I am suggesting, but to make things clearer I will soon post a diagram showing this adaptation. See the diagram at post #93

Best wishes to everyone,

Rick
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Last edited by rickoff; 11-01-2008 at 05:57 AM. Reason: added info at bottom, in blue text
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