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Renewable Energy Discussion on various alternative energy, renewable energy, & free energy technologies. Also any discussion about the environment, global warming, and other related topics are welcome here.

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Old 09-29-2008, 11:58 AM
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Do US auto makers deserve $25B taxpayers for new mpg goals?

Part of the $700B package is $25 Billion for GM Ford to retool to meet the new cafe miles per gallons standards set for future.

The new mpg standards for cars and trucks is a long time coming.

How do you feel about financing us car makers to get it?
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Old 09-29-2008, 01:35 PM
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ashtweth ashtweth is offline
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Criminal pay out

They can already produce EV's
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Old 09-29-2008, 02:24 PM
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They can, but they have to make all these changes in their production to do so.

I don't know if that amount of $ is appropriate, but I never thought these changes were going to happen without some kind of investment from somebody.

If I have to be that somebody (or one of them) I would chose to be over the changes not being made.


Jessica
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Old 09-29-2008, 05:02 PM
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Chip Shorter Chip Shorter is offline
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Pay Now or Pay later. Whats the difference? In the end you will be taken advantage of.
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Old 09-29-2008, 11:06 PM
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I read somewhere it's not just US Auto Makers but also foreign ones that have factories on US soil, something like that...
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Old 09-30-2008, 01:11 AM
dubsta dubsta is offline
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These corporations has zero moral scruples.
They should be made to face the music just like any responsable person or corporation would if they made terrbile decisions.

Think about it, as if anyone would bail us out if we screwed up that bad.

Also lets not forget, GM was fined 5K for colluding with standard oil & firestone. They basically bought up all the electric infrastructure used for buses and dismantled it all shortly after.

I wouldnt mind GM going belly up.
Harsh but another more responsible corporation could easily take its place.
Besides, anytime they do something right its because they used European engineering or technologies.

Besides EV1, they havent come up with anything worth mentioning in 40+ years.
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Old 09-30-2008, 01:57 AM
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They should be made to face the music just like any responsable person or corporation would if they made terrbile decisions.

One could argue that they have made good decisions. . .from a business perspective. I'm sure one could argue against that as well but I'm just pointing out that I am not surprised when a business makes decisions that it considers good for business.

Also I always keep in mind that it's easier to criticize than create. If it were really so easy to make more efficient vehicles and run a successful business doing so, no one would be mad at these companies bc they would be buying from whatever companies were doing a better job.

I don't work for a car company or anything, I just usually feel that attacking what we don't like isn't incredibly productive.

Per LOA the more we appreciate what we have now, the easier it is to get better stuff

Jessica
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Old 09-30-2008, 05:17 AM
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Some thoughts from the man in Maine....

Jessica - People are buying more cars from those who make them better, and that's why Toyota surged ahead this year to become the world's top seller. My 2007 Toyota Prius gets 54 mpg average, but just look at all the car ads on TV now that are touting 30 mpg as being a good thing! It's enough to make any sane person want to vomit. Toyota understood what people wanted, and they delivered the goods. The American car manufacturers didn't get it, though they should have. I don't know if you are old enough to remember the Opec Oil Embargo of 1973, but it put our country in a tailspin. Gas prices soared to 3 times what we were used to paying, and that was only if you were willing to wait in a long lineup of cars hoping to reach a fuel pump before the station ran out of gas. It was a scary time, but it was also an early warning that should have been heeded. All of the US automakers should have immediately done some very serious redesigning and retooling to eliminate our dependence on foreign energy supplies. And our Washington lawmakers should have acted to demand a minimum of 50 mpg for every gas or diesel powered automobile sold in the USA within 5 years of the embargo. Sounds too tough? Well, consider this - just 3 years after the 1973 oil embargo, Volkswagen introduced the 1976 Rabbit diesel, which gave owners better than 50 mpg. The VW rabbit became Volkswagen's best selling car of all time, and that's because they made what people wanted. But US automakers just didn't get it. A feeble attempt was made in 1978 to give us a similar car, when Chrysler Corporation came out with the Dodge Omni, a gas powered vehicle built larger than a Rabbit, but with fuel economy of only 34 mpg. The Omni was largely responsible for Chrysler's turnaround from near bankruptcy, but why didn't they try to go VW one better, and come up with a car that would get 80 to 100 mpg? It could easily have been done, even with the larger cars. There are literally hundreds of US patents for carburetors that would have enabled cars to achieve that kind of mileage decades ago, but US automakers weren't interested in implementing any of them. Yech - time to vomit again.....
Really, though, doesn't that make you want to hurl at them? And I don't mean to hurl cash rewards, either, as in the form of a 25 billion dollar taxpayer handout. Let them bail themselves out by giving us what we truly need - electric and Hydrogen cars. If they can't do it on their own then let new car companies emerge, and call on lawmakers to pass strong anti-suppression laws to thwart those who would stand in the way of true progress. The American consumer has every right to be p.o.'d, and to not be duped into paying the ransoms being asked for. It is truly outrageous.

Best to all, Rick

Last edited by rickoff : 09-30-2008 at 05:21 AM.
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Old 09-30-2008, 09:59 AM
citfta citfta is offline
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There was an article on Yahoo just a couple of weeks ago about a car Ford is now selling in Europe. If I remember right it gets over 60 mpg. When Ford was asked why they weren't importing this car to the US their answer was the American people didn't want a car like this and it wouldn't sell in the US. I guess the person that gave that answer has been living in a cave for the last couple of years. They already have all the technology they need. If they are too stupid to see that the American public is fed up with their antics then let them go under.

citfta
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Old 09-30-2008, 10:37 AM
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ashtweth ashtweth is offline
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All as they need to do is endorse these compressed air car companies (who BTW one of them i know in Aust is struggling for investment) .
Compressed Air

WITH LEGISLATIVE LAW TOO- For example, in the year 2010 -40 % of cars sold must have Zero emission Exhaust (like the local Calif mandate had). Prob is that GM wont go straight into EV's as their profits will DROP, they will beat around the bush and throw us all a bone giving us so many MPG per year. Milk it to death. Well we will blow that target out of the water with the GEET and hydroxy watch us.

Check out the Emission reports of this GEET for CO2 reduction!
0.1 % with the GEET 8.6 with out it!!
GEET

You telling me a simple modification like the GEET shouldn't get some of those bucks
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Old 09-30-2008, 02:05 PM
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Really, though, doesn't that make you want to hurl at them? And I don't mean to hurl cash rewards, either, as in the form of a 25 billion dollar taxpayer handout. Let them bail themselves out by giving us what we truly need - electric and Hydrogen cars. If they can't do it on their own then let new car companies emerge, and call on lawmakers to pass strong anti-suppression laws to thwart those who would stand in the way of true progress.
I guess it's just that I care most about improving on this issue as opposed to ruminating over frustrations with it. I understand what you are saying but for whatever reason I am more often delighted with the possibilities for change and enthusiastic over them by whatever means necessary than I am angry over those who are not making changes (or enough changes fast enough).

Maybe it's bc it's old news about how things usually go and I'm a little sick of despairing over bad news.

Again the bad news doesn't surprise me, nor does the notion that things aren't always "fair." I'm just ready to focus on whatever we can do to change things


XO Jessica
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Old 09-30-2008, 02:09 PM
Matthew Jones Matthew Jones is offline
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"Pay Now or Pay later. Whats the difference? In the end you will be taken advantage of." ... Chip Shorter
Aint that the Damn TRUTH!!

The fact is no matter who the car company they will not abandon gasoline for EV's anytime soon. The government will not force legislation on them to make them abondon gas burners, do to hardship. The best we'll see is hybrid.
Based most likely on performance on the road not performance at the pump.
Or some fuel based vehicle, they can sell fuel for.
Natural gas keeps coming up. Who wants to bet Exxon won't sell it at their pumps?

The simple fact of the matter is the car companies fear the oil companies. Because they have the power to perform Hostile takeovers and do quete frequently use that power. Thats why 30 - 35 miles to gallon is now the magic number, although more is quete obtainable. The Oil companies tell the car manufactures what mileage us Americans are going to get.

The polititions fear them because the gas companies can spend them out of office, and do quete frequently practice that.

If it were up to me the big 3 in the US could go out of buisness and the Unions and their employees would then be ripe for changes in government.

Maybe with that many people we could start talking about making changes in government "By Any Means". I beleive to fear for health and well being, for yourself and your family the ulimate motivator.

Thats the only way things are ever going change in this "Home of the Brave" country we live in. Sorry if thats too harsh....

Matthew Jones
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Old 09-30-2008, 02:10 PM
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Let them bail themselves out by giving us what we truly need - electric and Hydrogen cars.
The other thing is I'm not really interested in waiting for the above to happen. Of course it would be nice if it did but I think it's an incredibly bad strategy to expect it to, lol.


Jessica
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Old 09-30-2008, 02:20 PM
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And to clarify, I am not in support of the entire big bail out package that is now on the table, but I would chose to put $ to improve mpg.
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Old 09-30-2008, 03:07 PM
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Global Arena competition

Its interesting that on a global market of competition. The world auto makers have moved so slowly since the 70's fuel crunch to do the right thing with increasing mpg

My hope for the working slobs at US auto makers. GM & Ford really get it together with R&D and some truly advanced models so the jobs dont go away...

The economy is poor enough without loosing those positions. The workers can compete if good management presents itself

W
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Old 09-30-2008, 04:09 PM
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The workers can compete if good management presents itself

W

From outward appearance it would seem that those making lead decisions have some interesting bedfellows.

I think perhaps they have invested their money and their lives with the belief that there would be an oil crisis and be no way out of it. When ways out were discovered, they did what they could to keep their investments sound.

I'm just making conjectures based on how things appear but this is how I figure things have ended up how they have.

We could be mad at such people or we could do whatever we can to get things on the right track.


Jessica
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Old 09-30-2008, 04:32 PM
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IndianaBoys IndianaBoys is offline
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Ford Motor Company may be partner with Dutchman Enterprises...

Does not appear this company gave any credit to Paul Pantone and his GEET technology.

The PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter is a breakthrough new technology that could get your car up to five times the gas mileage! Its genius is its simplicity. Heres how it works:

PICC

Recieved this "Buy Now" solicitation/Press Release about possible Ford partnership:


September 28, 2008

Dear ***********,

Hello from Dutchman Enterprises. We appreciate your having taken the time at some time in the past to request a quote for a PICC for one or more vehicles(s). We were concerned about EPA issues with the technology originally, but we have re-designed around those considerations and we are no longer concerned about our special catalytic converter qualifying with the EPA. With gas prices rising as they have, other large interests have been looking for solutions to some of their problems and we have discovered a common interest in helping the American car manufacturers get back to doing what they do best… make the kind of vehicles Americans want. The door has opened for us to better serve the American consumers. We have some extremely important news. Ford and Dutchman have been talking and Ford finally gave permission for Dutchman to tell the public what is going on. This last weekend, a Ford executive spent several hours speaking to the dealers involved in distributing the Dutchman Enterprises automotive technologies at their annual dealers convention. Dutchman Enterprises can now announce that the initial meeting with representatives of Ford Motor Company went very well and both parties are excited about testing the HAFC and PICC and for the potential of improving fuel economy for American automobiles. The initial reaction of the Ford team involved was excitement and enthusiasm over the potential of both the HAFC and the PICC. Discussions have begun about both companies partnering together to further develop these technologies.

Dutchman Enterprises received a letter from the engineer that is heading up the Ford team to test the HAFC. In that letter from Corporate Headquarters in Dearborn Michigan, the leading engineer wrote, “the (HAFC) concept makes good sense.” There have been critics at large who have challenged the idea of water gas and called it a scam technology, but one has to consider the fact that no one knows more about automobiles and what makes sense relating to them than the engineers who design and build them. This same engineer, in the same letter, wrote, “We are also excited about the potential of the PICC technology.” Ford is discussing getting involved because these technologies make sense. Their testing is supposed to be over on or around October 1st, and the executive that addressed the dealers gave everyone the impression it was going well. They have even asked for more units and that is a good sign.

Mr. Alan Mulally, CEO of Ford Motor Company, was interviewed on CNBC on the 12th of September, and he told the reporter that there are some interesting things happening in the alternative fuels area. He said, “Hydrogen technologies, involving water, offer some incredible opportunities to do something with the engines we already have.” That is not a statement about regular Hydrogen Fuel Cells, which do not operate with current engines. It is reasonable to assume he is talking about water gas injection and the Hydro-Assist Fuel Cells, which his people are currently testing.

Of course, Dutchman Enterprises is excited about the prospects of partnering with Ford Motor Company and their thousands of Ford dealers all across the USA and throughout the world. Not to mention the engineering and research prospects for developing the PICC to it’s full potential. It is not hard to see why Ford would want to be able to get 50% (or even 30%) better mileage out of their existing SUVs and Pickup trucks. It could save the US auto industry to be able to develop the PICC within a year or so to be able to get 100 miles per gallon or better (city and highway) with future SUVs and Pickups. Both of these technologies have world wide patent protection owned by Dutchman Enterprises.

What does this mean to you? It is time to seriously consider getting your HAFC kit on order NOW. The Ford executive mentioned that he thought our prices were too low and that they should be double what we are currently charging. I guess he is right, because we were charging the same price we currently charge for the kit when gas prices were half what they are now. When Ford comes in that will most likely change. The demand will also go through the roof! Just to modify the Ford vehicles will involve 60 million cars. A word to the wise, get your HAFC on order. The PICC will most likely not be on the market for another year or so. Ford will want to develop it with new car designs in mind, while Dutchman Enterprises will absolutely insist on an after market version as well, but that will delay it for well over a year down the road. In the meantime, can there be any doubt now that the concept of the HAFC is sound and can improve fuel economy? You have the benefit of being able to get a little ahead of the curve while the price is half what it will be and while there is not a waiting list as long as the gas lines in the 70s.

As, we are sure, you have already discovered, we have assigned a customer service representative, who works for one of our dealers, to you. If you have any questions about this message, please contact Manager, your customer service representative, using this email address, support@preignitioncc.com. Let our representative do his or her best to answer all your questions and get your HAFC kit in process. One report we recently read made the point that by merely increasing the mileage of vehicles in America by a mere 30% we could eliminate our need for ANY of the middle Eastern oil! Can you imagine what we can do for America and American car manufacturers just by installing the HAFC kits now? When Ford joins us, we will be able to put a LOT of people back to work and stop this fossil fuels insanity. With their help, our PICC will be all that it can be, and all American car manufacturers can get us all the cars and pickup trucks we want with no concern for fuel costs or pollution. This is the answer we are all looking for. Thank you for your support in this effort.

If you have any questions about this announcment, please contact your customer service representative who is Manager using the his email address, support@preignitioncc.com.

Dedicated to a safe, environmentally sound, and prosperous America,

Dennis Lee

(CEO-Dutchman Enterprises, LLC)

P.S. Please do not respond to this email address because we do not monitor it for incoming email. If you need to contact someone, please contact your customer service rep and/or dealer.
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Old 09-30-2008, 05:11 PM
swompwalker swompwalker is offline
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There is absolutely no reason to chuck money at the Auto makers.All that's needed is legislation raising the bar on mpg year by year.( Bit like a horse jumping event) Let the market drive the automakers to survive or not as the case may be . One thing is absolutely sure that some auto makers would be jumpin that bar and supplying the market entirely without any help from the tax payer.
Detroit lobbyists chucking money to their tame US legislators - makes yu sick don't it now
Other than that I'm with Rickoff/Ashtweth
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Old 09-30-2008, 05:47 PM
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All that's needed is legislation raising the bar on mpg year by year.
I agree that legislation is a great way to go on this. I just don't trust the current administration to do it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swompwalker View Post
There is absolutely no reason to chuck money at the Auto makers.
While I think you mean more along the lines of it is not justifiable to have to do that, imo there is definitely a reason. It's called GET R DONE

I also wanted to point out the following in general : It doesn't seem like most people are aware that certain regulations do exist regarding vehicle emissions (which in many cases is tied to mpg).

CEPA Environmental Registry - Fleet Average NOx Emission Performance of Light-Duty Vehicles, Light-Duty Trucks and Medium-Duty Passenger Vehicles

I just wanted people to be aware that there are certain things going in the right direction.


Jessica
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Old 09-30-2008, 05:49 PM
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Lol I posted a link that applies to Canada.

I know though from speaking with certain company fleet managers in the US that they have regulations as well. I'll see if I can find better info on that. . .

Last edited by future pather : 09-30-2008 at 05:54 PM.
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Old 09-30-2008, 05:53 PM
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Here's an example for the US :


"The regulations establish a "fleet average emission rate target" for PM and NOx for all off-road diesel vehicles operating in the state, regardless of whether they are California-based or not. The emission rate targets decline over time - become more stringent - until the final fleet average emission rate target is reached in 2020 for large and medium fleets and in 2025 for small fleets. For example, the PM emission target for a 100 to 174 horsepower diesel vehicle will be 0.33 g/bhp-hour (grams per British horsepower hour of use) in 2010, declining over time to a floor of 0.06 g/bhp-hour in 2020.

The regulations take an "either/or" approach to compliance: Each year, the regulation requires each fleet to either meet the fleet average emission rate targets for PM or apply the highest level verified diesel emission control system (VDECS) to 20 percent of its horsepower. Large and medium fleets also must meet the fleet average emission rate targets for NOx or turn over a certain percentage of their horsepower by re-powering with a cleaner engine, retiring a vehicle, replacing a vehicle with a new or used one, or designating a dirty vehicle as a low-use vehicle.

After the first fleet average compliance dates (2010 for large fleets, 2013 for medium fleets and 2015 for small fleets), fleets may not add vehicles that exceed the fleet targets for engines in the same horsepower group - i.e., they cannot add vehicles that make the fleet "dirtier." The regulation also limits unnecessary idling to 5 minutes and restricts any fleet from adding Tier 0 vehicles after March 1, 2009. The largest fleets must report the composition of their fleets by May 1, 2009, and medium and small fleets have one and three additional months to report, respectively. . . ."



California's New Limits on Emissions from Diesel Construction Equipment - Details on How the Rules Work
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Old 09-30-2008, 07:19 PM
swompwalker swompwalker is offline
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The foreign car makers did not receive subsidies in order to meet singular Californian vehicle regulations. They met the costs themselves made a profit and everyone gained!
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Old 09-30-2008, 08:37 PM
dubsta dubsta is offline
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The foreign car makers did not receive subsidies in order to meet singular Californian vehicle regulations. They met the costs themselves made a profit and everyone gained!



All they had to do was put their efforts into making something RELIABLE, ECONOMIC and worth its salt, next thing you know they are the biggest and the best.

pretty ironic isn't it?
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Old 09-30-2008, 09:27 PM
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Smile

Since it is our tax money they will be using to retool then it will be interesting to see what kind of tax rebate we will get when we buy one of these "retooled" cars.....my guess is zippo ........ in my humble opinion they do NOT deserver any tax help at all but just because they do not deserve it does not seam to make any difference..... it is some of the people in Washington that we elected that have come up with this stupid idea and I am glad the ones I voted for voted NO.... at least we had a say sort of....
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 09-30-2008, 11:27 PM
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ANTIQUER ANTIQUER is offline
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Picc?

Hey IndianaBoys;

I got this same e-mail as I had checked on this unit last year.No one should buy into this without checking out Dennis Lee. He has a fairly shady reputation.

When I contacted this company over a year ago, the HAFC unit for my car was $2500.00 + installation(est. $800.00) by one of their certified installers plus some other costly requirements I don't recall at the moment.

The PICC unit was an estimated $5000.00 plus installation, etc. when they got it on the market. That pretty much precluded most people from installing them.

The reason Ford might be interested is they will have a unit you could only replace by buying it or servicing it through them (Like the early catalytic converters). They would also have legislation passed so you could not alter or replace it as they do now with most so-called anti-pollution systems.

It's just more hogwash to make it appear they are trying to solve the problem. As Rickoff & Ash said, we have plenty of technology available already, they just don't want to use it.

By the way, Rickoff didn't mention the 1973 "oil embargo" was created by the big oil companies. They actually had so much gasoline they were running out of places to store it. I saw a tanker pull into an abandoned gas station at 2:00 a.m. and pump his load into the underground tanks during the so-called shortage. I also had several of my friends who reported seeing such events.
Just another example of corporate greed & manipulation.?

Al
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 09-30-2008, 11:39 PM
citfta citfta is offline
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There is no oil shortage now either. When all the hoopla started about the oil shortage some of the people in southern Kentucky decided to restart their old oil wells and pick up a little extra cash. When they got their tanks full they called the oil company to come get the oil. The man at the oil company said they couldn't come get it because they didn't have any place to put it. This happened early this summer right in the middle of the so called oil crisis.
citfta
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Old 10-01-2008, 02:23 AM
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ashtweth ashtweth is offline
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> > Email sent to Panacea
> >
> > Ash
> > ------------------------
> >
> > "Do you know anything about the Hydrogen Fuel Cell Technology (HACF)
> > or the Pre-ignition catalytic converter (PICC)? We ordered a HAFC
> > from Pro Motors Group Corp. When ever we called them to check up on
> > the order then would tell us that they lost our order in their
> > computer. So we cancelled our order and asked for a refund. We were
> > told we would get a refund within 48 hours and it has been a week with
> > no refund. Do you know anything about these people? "

Be careful purchasing from Pro Motors Group Corp
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Old 10-01-2008, 02:56 AM
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Big Oil

Quote:
Originally Posted by ANTIQUER View Post
By the way, Rickoff didn't mention the 1973 "oil embargo" was created by the big oil companies. They actually had so much gasoline they were running out of places to store it. I saw a tanker pull into an abandoned gas station at 2:00 a.m. and pump his load into the underground tanks during the so-called shortage. I also had several of my friends who reported seeing such events.
Just another example of corporate greed & manipulation.?
Al
You're quite right, Al, and so is Cifta. The only reason I didn't mention it is because I figured that nearly everyone here already knows that, but thanks for pointing it out. As to the price of gas, and the price of everything else that rises because of fuel costs, it has nothing to do with depletion or scarcity of oil. Enough oil, and natural gas, has been found in the North Slope area of Alaska to fully meet the energy needs of the United States for the next 200 years. Now I am not suggesting that we should abandon our quest to develop alternative energies. This is something that should have been brought to fruition by world leaders and scientists long ago. But if you want to understand why they didn't do that, why we are still buying oil from Saudi Arabia, and what is really behind our current "energy crisis," then look to Lindsey Williams, as he has the answers. Watch this eye-opening 9 1/2 minute video of Lindsey, which is part 1 of 8, and you will probably want to see more:
YouTube - Lindsey Williams - The Energy Non-Crisis - Part 1 of 8

You can also read Lindsey's book, The Energy Non Crisis, at:
The Energy Non-Crisis by Lindsey Williams

Jessica - I fully agree that it is good to have emissions laws that protect the environment, but US automakers could have gone "Green," with zero emissions decades ago by producing Hydrogen, electric, or nitrogen powered vehicles. The emissions laws should never have been needed. Automakers appeared to grumble at the laws, and then comply with them, but in actuality it is what they really wanted all along because it drove the price of vehicles (and emissions replacement parts) way higher, bringing them a huge windfall of profits. And sure, that's been good for their business and has made their stockholders happy in the past, but look where they are now. The autoworkers should think about offering to take over the plants they work at and begin producing some really smart vehicles. Form their own auto company and fire the corporate execs. For that matter, they could fire their union fat cat bosses too, as they wouldn't be needed any more. They could write their own charter and by-laws, and elect the most appropriate team leaders from their own ranks. Now that's real empowerment.


Rick
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 10-01-2008, 03:07 AM
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ashtweth ashtweth is offline
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More on the whole OIL picture and Lindsey is here too
Oil Subjugation

I think money spent on subsidies/Endorsement to improve MPG Via GEET/Hydroxy. Then legislation like the old Cal mandates, to move towards compressed/EV's

Check out Solar taxi
Solartaxi
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Old 10-01-2008, 05:40 AM
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EV's

Thanks, Ash. And for anyone who hasn't seen this video, which tells the story of GM's EV1 (production model Electric Vehicle) please do yourself a favor and see it now. This link is the only one I am aware of that shows the documentary film in its entirety. You will probably recognize the voice of the narrator, actor Martin Sheen. If there is anyone on this forum who can watch this and still think that we should cough up big bucks to help the US automakers tool up to produce more gasoline powered vehicles with "improved mpg efficiency," then please step up to the plate and take a swing at trying to explain why.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5871495968130273402

Best to all, Rick
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