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Old 09-27-2008, 09:34 AM
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Allcanadian Allcanadian is offline
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No Bemf Motor

I designed this no Bemf motor quite a while ago and thought you may find this interesting. This motor develops a scary amount of torque for a relatively small duration input because it utilizes two poles of the rotor PM's in the same instance. In figure 1 on the lower left we see what is basically a 120/12volt transformer with the sides cut off to form an "H" shaped inductor. This inductor is between the opposite poles of two of the rotor magnets lying on a green line which is the bloch wall of the two PM poles. The bloch wall is a point where two magnetic fields meet, it is also a point where there is no polar magnetism it is a impolar region. Each PM has it's own bloch wall and between each PM a bloch wall is created designated by a green line. If this inductor is energized it is simultaneously repelled from the blue south pole and attracted to the red north pole.
Next in figure 1 to the right is another "H" inductor on the bloch wall of one of the rotor PM's. We can see that the PM field will couple to the inductor but the field will not enter the inductor windings because this is not the shortest magnetic path back to the PM's opposite pole, as such the inductor can produce a magnetic force on the rotor PM's but the rotor PM's cannot induce a current in the inductor windings. This means there can be no Bemf as there is no generator function acting on the inductor windings or better stated the PM field cannot cut the inductor windings producing a counter emf.
In figure 2 the two inductors bottom and right are shown having there poles designated by a blue(south pole) or red(north pole). The inductors are only energized within a small sector designated with (on-off) which roughly corresponds to the bloch wall between each pair of rotor PM's. Therefore if one inductor was used this inductor would be energized four times per revolution of the rotor.
On a less technical note, I see many people continually doing the same thing with the same designs and expecting different results each time when Im not sure there can be any change in there results. I have found through research and experiment that it is very difficult to utilize the magnetic pole of a permanent magnet and come out ahead in any way, so why do it? It is much easier to utilize the bloch wall to produce a dual force, both attraction and repulsion in the same instance and not have to deal with Bemf. A motor should act like a motor in every way and a generator should act like a generator in every way to be effective. There is also the problem of inductive inertia and residual magnetism that is not being dealt with in current motors. You cannot swap polarities at register without substantial losses, it is much more effective to energize an inductor at or near the bloch wall and have the after effects of energizing the inductor accelerate the rotor instead of de-accelerating it. I would like to mention that this rotary motor was designed after reading a patent by Wesley Gary for an oscillating motor. I am pretty sure Mr.Gary knew many things our enginners have yet to learn.
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Old 09-27-2008, 11:22 AM
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Another simple variation of the motor posted earlier is also showing up in many patents as a generator, I have no doubts that this is the same design that Lutec is utilizing. If you watch there latest video it is hard not to see the striking similarities. It is also interesting that Lutec only patented a means for controlling a motor/generator/transformer and not a generator in itself. In the picture below the outer stators are inductors or what could be called "open transformers" as they have primary and secondary windings. If we consider that the rotor PM will produce an opposite polarity in the stator then we get a better picture of the very simple process involved. If the bottom rotor PM has just passed the stator then this stator will have an opposite induced polarity to the rotor PM. If this stator has an induced current flow and this current is applied to an inductive load then the load current will resist any change but in this case the load current can only accelerate the rotor as it leaves the stator because the poles are like poles in repulsion. The load current in the stator will repel the outgoing rotor PM and the rotor PM will also be attracted to the next stator having an opposite pole reinforced by the load current. In this case the reaction is opposite to what we know in conventional generators. In conventional generators any load current will produce a back drag on the rotor because the load current reinforces the stator polarity which is attracted to the opposite polarity of the rotor PM directly in front of it which seems kind of silly. As well this load current in a conventional generator also ensures that the the rotor will not only be pulled backward but it will also be repelled by the next stator section of like polarity. The conventional generator would seem to be a lose-lose proposition at the best of times, is it any wonder it takes so much power to drive them. There is also another neat trick concerning the stator transformers, when a stator is in a neutral field (the bloch wall between rotor PM's) then the stator is free to act as an pure inductor or a transformer without interaction from a magnetic pole or poles. In this generator we can see that all the rotor PM's are in repulsion with the next PM and a bloch wall is formed between each set of PM's in repulsion. To accelerate the rotor all that is needed is to apply a small current to the stator when the stator is in the bloch wall (a neutral field) between the rotor PM's. The rotor PM is then attracted to the next stator and repelled from the one it just passed, the transformer action in a neutral field allows the input to be combined with the stator output. In this case input equals transformer output + induced stator output plus the load current accelerating the rotor which is very cool.
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Last edited by Allcanadian : 09-27-2008 at 11:26 AM.
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Old 09-27-2008, 12:02 PM
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Thank you Allcanadian for this topic.
It gave me lot of things to think about
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Old 09-27-2008, 01:06 PM
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So as far as I understand, conventional generators would work like this:



Lets look at the upper right magnet and lets suppose that all the stator coils are shorted. As the magnet approaches the stator coil, it induces a current flow in the stator coil. This current flow now creates a magnetic field that is opposite in polarity to the magnet, like in pic2, this makes a repulsion and slow the rotor down. Now, if the magnet is aligned to the stator coil and starts to leave the coil, the current flow in the coil reverses and this makes also the coils magnetic field to reverse its polarity. Now the coil is attracting the magnet that leaves the stator coil and in the same time repulsing the incoming new magnet. Right? So how can we make it so that the coil does not change the polarity as the magnet leaves the stator coil? What do you mean with an inductive load?
I am trying to understand this
Thanks,
Jetijs
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Old 09-27-2008, 02:47 PM
roxaz roxaz is offline
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To disable magnetic field inversion you put a diode just before a coil. Remember, there was thread about bedini motor with no lentz drag
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Old 09-27-2008, 05:12 PM
Peter Lindemann Peter Lindemann is offline
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Excellent!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allcanadian View Post
I designed this no Bemf motor quite a while ago and thought you may find this interesting. This motor develops a scary amount of torque for a relatively small duration input because it utilizes two poles of the rotor PM's in the same instance. In figure 1 on the lower left we see what is basically a 120/12volt transformer with the sides cut off to form an "H" shaped inductor. This inductor is between the opposite poles of two of the rotor magnets lying on a green line which is the bloch wall of the two PM poles. The bloch wall is a point where two magnetic fields meet, it is also a point where there is no polar magnetism it is a impolar region. Each PM has it's own bloch wall and between each PM a bloch wall is created designated by a green line. If this inductor is energized it is simultaneously repelled from the blue south pole and attracted to the red north pole.
Next in figure 1 to the right is another "H" inductor on the bloch wall of one of the rotor PM's. We can see that the PM field will couple to the inductor but the field will not enter the inductor windings because this is not the shortest magnetic path back to the PM's opposite pole, as such the inductor can produce a magnetic force on the rotor PM's but the rotor PM's cannot induce a current in the inductor windings. This means there can be no Bemf as there is no generator function acting on the inductor windings or better stated the PM field cannot cut the inductor windings producing a counter emf.
In figure 2 the two inductors bottom and right are shown having there poles designated by a blue(south pole) or red(north pole). The inductors are only energized within a small sector designated with (on-off) which roughly corresponds to the bloch wall between each pair of rotor PM's. Therefore if one inductor was used this inductor would be energized four times per revolution of the rotor.
On a less technical note, I see many people continually doing the same thing with the same designs and expecting different results each time when Im not sure there can be any change in there results. I have found through research and experiment that it is very difficult to utilize the magnetic pole of a permanent magnet and come out ahead in any way, so why do it? It is much easier to utilize the bloch wall to produce a dual force, both attraction and repulsion in the same instance and not have to deal with Bemf. A motor should act like a motor in every way and a generator should act like a generator in every way to be effective. There is also the problem of inductive inertia and residual magnetism that is not being dealt with in current motors. You cannot swap polarities at register without substantial losses, it is much more effective to energize an inductor at or near the bloch wall and have the after effects of energizing the inductor accelerate the rotor instead of de-accelerating it. I would like to mention that this rotary motor was designed after reading a patent by Wesley Gary for an oscillating motor. I am pretty sure Mr.Gary knew many things our enginners have yet to learn.
Allcanadian,

Yes, the work of Wesley Gary (also Canadian) is vitally important. Energizing the coils when the magnets are as far away as possible should help. Whether or not this design behaves as a true "no back EMF" motor will depend on a number of things. Obviously, if the coils can be "OFF" when the magnets make their closest approach to the coils that will dramatically reduce any "direct generator" effects. So the COP of the system will depend on the combination of how much torque the motor will produce and how much electricity can be recovered when your inductors are shut off. This second point, the inductive collapse, is the main issue. Two circuit parameters will determine this.

1) Is there a change in INDUCTANCE in the coil between the point of turn ON and the point of turn OFF? If there is, then the total quantity of energy that can be recovered will be different than the total quantity of energy required for the input. Depending on the geometry of the situation, this "difference" can either be a benefit or a liability. In most cases, it is a liability.

2) If there is a change in inductance, then how can this be MINIMIZED by making the input pulse as short a duration as possible. This requires using methods developed by Bob Teal where a very high current pulse is applied for a very short duration to produce a large mechanical thrust AND a very efficient electrical return.

This is the "window of opportunity" that should be explored.

Keep up the great work. I really believe you are going in the right direction with this.

Peter
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Old 09-27-2008, 09:52 PM
hh1341 hh1341 is offline
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Thanks

Thanks for directing me to this thread, AC

Carl
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Old 09-28-2008, 04:20 AM
Peter Lindemann Peter Lindemann is offline
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Wesley Gary

Hi folks,

For those of you who may not be familiar with the work of Wesley Gary, here is a link to a file on his permanent magnet motors and low drag generator designs at Rex Research.

Wesley Gary's Magnetic Motor

Peter
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Old 09-28-2008, 07:20 AM
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Quote:
Yes, the work of Wesley Gary (also Canadian) is vitally important. Energizing the coils when the magnets are as far away as possible should help. Whether or not this design behaves as a true "no back EMF" motor will depend on a number of things. Obviously, if the coils can be "OFF" when the magnets make their closest approach to the coils that will dramatically reduce any "direct generator" effects. So the COP of the system will depend on the combination of how much torque the motor will produce and how much electricity can be recovered when your inductors are shut off. This second point, the inductive collapse, is the main issue. Two circuit parameters will determine this.
Hello Peter
LOL, I didn't know Wesley Gary was canadian, I built Mr.Gary's patent number 190,206 almost 5 years ago and I can tell you I learned many important lessons in the process. The first was that the applied force should constitute a dual force as all forces are dual in nature, the reaction to the applied force is attraction an effect of the applied force is repulsion and both can occur in the same instance. As well the design itself defines efficient operation, the armature is energized at or near the bloch wall, the armature never leaves the permanent magnetic field and the applied force occurs in a near constant linear permanent magnetic field.
Regards AC
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Old 09-28-2008, 04:52 PM
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Adams + Hall IC

I'm testing a Adams motor, using last generation component, Hall IC effect and MOSFET, Back EMF to recharge battery is strong. My coil is a powerfull 30 ohm AWG 27 monofilar, run to room temperature MOSFET is cold too, 12 volts gives good BEMF, 24 volts high speed and relatively good torque, I want to step up to 36 volts, but I've first install a voltage regulator to my Hall, (is last) I burned five trying to make it run.

The effectively best performance is when Hall IC is adjusted a little after of magnets on the stator.

Running on 12 volts X 0.03 amps free wheel. and 0.12 amps trying getting slow the rotor (but BEMF is higher ).

With rotor totally stopped and magnets over HallIC 0.34 amps max

Adams was a genius....

Last edited by patmac : 09-28-2008 at 04:55 PM.
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Old 09-29-2008, 07:43 PM
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@Jetijs
Quote:
Lets look at the upper right magnet and lets suppose that all the stator coils are shorted. As the magnet approaches the stator coil, it induces a current flow in the stator coil. This current flow now creates a magnetic field that is opposite in polarity to the magnet, like in pic2, this makes a repulsion and slow the rotor down. Now, if the magnet is aligned to the stator coil and starts to leave the coil, the current flow in the coil reverses and this makes also the coils magnetic field to reverse its polarity. Now the coil is attracting the magnet that leaves the stator coil and in the same time repulsing the incoming new magnet. Right? So how can we make it so that the coil does not change the polarity as the magnet leaves the stator coil? What do you mean with an inductive load?
I am trying to understand this
The picture below is the process timing of the generator posted. What I mean by inductive load is that a large inductance will act as a flywheel maintaining current flow in one direction, it will oppose change. We also know from a DC/DC converter circuit that an inductance when disrupted can also discharge its energy near instantly at high potential. You should notice that the two different properties of an inductance just mentioned would seem at odds with each other. Both of these properties are utilized in the stator coils. The trick here is to ignore what you see , you are only looking at the magnetic poles when the bloch wall is what we should be looking at.
There is one more concept that will help more than anything I believe and we should not overcomplicate this concept any more than we have to. In physics there are four variables--1)Position, 2)Velocity, 3)Acceleration and 4)Control or rate of change of acceleration. The Control function is what we should be concerned with, forces can have equal and opposite reactions but we can to some extent "control" the rate at which the action/reaction happens. For example a large inductance can charge slowly the effect is a magnetic force and discharge near instantly the effect is an electric force, the control or rate of change is very different in the charge and discharge conditions and we can control when this happens.
Regards
AC
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Last edited by Allcanadian : 09-29-2008 at 08:14 PM.
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Old 09-30-2008, 05:52 PM
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Here is an interesting circuit which has application in both the generator above and non-Bemf motors. In this circuit an intermittent current input will maintain the polarity of the inductor over a large time frame. In one instance the DC motor is acting as a motor and the moment the source current is disconnected the DC motor will act as a generator maintaining the current flow. The DC motor is a low turn/resistance PM motor and the inductance is the 120v windings of a transformer cut down to form an inductor.
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Last edited by Allcanadian : 09-30-2008 at 06:59 PM.
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Old 10-02-2008, 02:47 AM
hh1341 hh1341 is offline
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Recovery

Hi AC,

Does this design have energy recovery?

Is it easy on the juice or is it a hog?

I am interested in developing a motor for an electric boat.

Peter, I think wisely, has steered me away from the solenoid design.

Do you think yours would show promise for my application?

Carl

Motor.jpg
Double click on the pic

Last edited by hh1341 : 10-02-2008 at 05:15 PM.
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Old 10-04-2008, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
Peter, I think wisely, has steered me away from the solenoid design.
Do you think yours would show promise for my application?
Carl
The solenoid motor has one benefit many other motors do not and that is time. Everyone has assumed that an electric current must be applied during the duration of the solenoid power cycle. If a current pulse is applied during the start of the cycle and this current maintains itself thus the magnetic field through the cycle then the input energy has no relation to the torque or power generated. For instance what would happen if a 1/10th second pulse would produce a magnetic field that remained constant for 2 seconds or more?
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Old 10-05-2008, 08:49 AM
hh1341 hh1341 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allcanadian View Post
@hh1341

The solenoid motor has one benefit many other motors do not and that is time. Everyone has assumed that an electric current must be applied during the duration of the solenoid power cycle. If a current pulse is applied during the start of the cycle and this current maintains itself thus the magnetic field through the cycle then the input energy has no relation to the torque or power generated. For instance what would happen if a 1/10th second pulse would produce a magnetic field that remained constant for 2 seconds or more?
AC,

Would that result be,.... less power consumed for plenty of torque created.....equals efficient?

BTW......Can i take this as a slight encouraging push in the solenoid direction?

Carl

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Old 10-07-2008, 08:52 AM
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I have been meaning to reply to this thread for sometime AC but my studies have kept me busy. Now that Ive found a quiet moment Id like to comment/question. I find your mangets orientation very interesting, however I am a little unclear as to when your coils are energized. Are they energized @ the block wall of the magnet itself or inbetween magnets or both? Interesting to note that this design has been experimented with in the window motor forum particularly by Carl H and he also noted an increase in torque. Also Rick F is about to release a window motor kit for the Bedini groups and though I have no proof as such I am under the impression that the magnets will be configured in a similar fashion. He has said that this design takes advantage of both sides of the magnet and that neither pole faces the rotors shaft, so I can only assume it is similar in design. The so-called scalar rotors of JB are similar to this too.

They are triggered differently and have different arrangements in regards to the coils, but the theory and design of the rotor is almost identical. Pretty much all of Bedinis designs call for bifilar windings of 1 to 1 length, and while this suits his purpose, I think its important for others to realise that this doesnt always have to be the case. Are your means for switching mechanical and are your coils traditionally styled? Dude you must have a tonne of gutted microwaves at home Im getting a small collection too much to the dismay of my wife.

All this talk of block walls makes me wonder, we focus so much on the field the magnet projects outwards, yet so little is known/studied in regard to where that field radiates from. Makes you think........
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Old 10-09-2008, 09:59 PM
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@hh1341
Quote:
Would that result be,.... less power consumed for plenty of torque created.....equals efficient?
BTW......Can i take this as a slight encouraging push in the solenoid direction?
If I wanted to build a boat motor I would want large amounts of torque at low RPM as high RPM produces higher drag in a dense fluid such as water. So yes I think a high torque/low RPM solenoid motor would work well.

@Ren
Quote:
I find your mangets orientation very interesting, however I am a little unclear as to when your coils are energized. Are they energized @ the block wall of the magnet itself or inbetween magnets or both?
I have always relied on simple experiments and intuition to guide me, all these calculations and equations are useless when your breaking new ground. If you mount two magnets on a rotor and use an inductor to see where maximum force develops without a change in inductance you will learn more than I can tell you. The region your looking for is just before and after the bloch wall.
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Old 10-10-2008, 09:23 PM
hh1341 hh1341 is offline
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Motor

Thanks AC,

The solenoid design I was starting to entertain had transformer steel punched into washers to create a laminated piston.

Motor.jpg

Would washer shaped magnets be a suitable substitute in your design?

Carl
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Old 10-10-2008, 11:09 PM
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@hh1341
Quote:
The solenoid design I was starting to entertain had transformer steel punched into washers to create a laminated piston.
Would washer shaped magnets be a suitable substitute in your design?
Have you seen Peter Lindemann's DVD? Im usually not one for plugging products LOL ,but I will say I was very impressed, I would recommend it to everyone. It taught me something I already knew as fact but was reluctant to accept despite the facts. That is the construction and operation of an electric motor are important, but mean very little relative to the energy state in the motor. The best design utilizing the best materials and components does not ensure the best efficiency, the control of energy in the system determines efficiency.
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Old 10-12-2008, 01:14 PM
hh1341 hh1341 is offline
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I have studied Peter's DVD, it's what got me started on this design in the first place.

His design works on the principal of the attraction of an iron core by an electromagnet.

Yours uses magnets. Peter does not use magnets.

Ergo my question "would a stack of washer shaped magnets be a suitable substitute for the construction of a piston in the design depicted"?

Thanks

Carl
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Old 06-22-2009, 06:09 PM
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Question re Diodes & coils

Quote:
Originally Posted by roxaz View Post
To disable magnetic field inversion you put a diode just before a coil. Remember, there was thread about bedini motor with no lentz drag
@ AllCanadian

If a diode is inserted in the coil path... will that sufficiently hold the charge in the coil until released or allowed to reverse via another path such as a secondary reversed diode path on separate switching circuitry? Or do you have to provide continuous power to the coil in order to maintain the field from collapsing(reversing)?

In the motor diagrams you showed of your designs here in an earlier post, it would seem that you must maintain the coil power until each successive PM has passed the mutual bloch wall point then allow the coil to reverse/collapse to send the PM on it's way. How would this work with very short duration power pulses such as Teal's/Bedini's? Do you use a concept like roxaz posted in the above quote or some other method (i.e. parallel coils, etc.) to delay the collapse of the coil? I apologize if the question sounds ignorant, but I can't hide that I'm new to a lot this area of study, and would like to develop the understanding of how these things work.

Many thanks,

Rick
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 06-22-2009, 07:23 PM
Peter Lindemann Peter Lindemann is offline
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What is Really Important?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hh1341 View Post
I have studied Peter's DVD, it's what got me started on this design in the first place.

His design works on the principal of the attraction of an iron core by an electromagnet.

Yours uses magnets. Peter does not use magnets.

Ergo my question "would a stack of washer shaped magnets be a suitable substitute for the construction of a piston in the design depicted"?

Thanks

Carl
Carl,

With regard to using permanent magnets in a design or not, I agree with AC here. I made a "big deal" about not using magnets in the DVD just so people could begin to see that "there IS a difference" in the two situations. As AC shows here, it is possible to design a "no Back EMF" motor or generator that uses magnets. With regard to a motor design, the important issues are whether or not there is any change in inductance in the power coil between the ON and OFF times, and whether or not there are any "cross inductions" between the moving and non-moving parts. It was easier to use the designs that do no use magnets as a "teaching aid" for the DVD. This is why I used the Teal motor designs as examples. Geometry and timing ultimately control the energy efficiency of any design.

The most important thing to understand is that, in any motor or generator, ONE INPUT always produces TWO OUTPUTS. The work of the designer of these machines is to make sure these two outputs do not interfere with each other, or the input. It is the careful management of these three forces that allows the creation of efficient machines.

Peter
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Old 05-13-2011, 06:13 AM
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Turion Turion is offline
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As regards the solenoid motor, this video may be of interest.
YouTube - 11Turion's Channel

David Bowling
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Old 05-13-2011, 11:55 PM
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Turion Turion is offline
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See the following two videos regarding magnetic attraction

Fuel-Efficient-Vehicles.org A Few Magnet Motors

and the following YouTube videos
YouTube - Xpenzif free energy screw magnet motor
YouTube - Free Energy Magnet Motor

As Matt would say:
Simple is Better

David Bowling
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