Electric Motor Secrets

lighty · #**511** (**permalink**) 12-16-2007, 03:40 AM

@nali2001

Ah, I see how you did it. Clever decision to avoid hassle with coil defs. Thx for the idea.

Schpankme · #**512** (**permalink**) 12-16-2007, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nali2001

Did a quick simulation

Regards,
Steven

Steven,

I'm curious as to what the simulation would show for patterns, if we put the Stator/Coils on the outside. Or would we end up with a Faraday Cage!

Could you produce the simulation for the motor geometry attached?

- Schpankme

Jetijs · #**513** (**permalink**) 12-16-2007, 12:32 PM

Schpankme,
I did a simple simulation of your core and it does not look good. I used vizimag for this. Here are the results:

I think that these images speak for themselves

Thanks,
Jetijs

Schpankme · #**514** (**permalink**) 12-16-2007, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetijs

Schpankme,
I did a simple simulation of your core ... Here are the results:

Thanks,
Jetijs

Jetijs,

Looks like were winding the cores on the inside.

New Project Motor

o Have you decided on motor Dimensions?
o Wonder if there's an "Off the Shelf" Motor to use?
o What's your price for shipping me a new motor kit (stator & rotor)?
o This is the perfect time for others to join in.

- Schpankme

Jetijs · #**515** (**permalink**) 12-16-2007, 04:56 PM

Schpankme,
# I think I will increase the outer diameter of the stator from 100 to 120mm that is the size of a CD. I need it to be a little bigger because of the shaft and bolt diameter issues. I do not know about the thickness yet, it all depends of the material and cuttng costs. I think the thickness will be 60-100mm, that is 120-200 plates (if I will het them at 0,5mm thickness).
# I do not know if there is any off shelf motor that could be perfectly suitable for this. Steven tried to convert a simple induction motor core, but we do not know the results yet. As you can read in previous posts, such a off shelf induction motor stator core is a real pain to wind. Also the poles could be too close together. Tomorrow I will see what the guys form the motor rewinding company will tell me, maybe they have something that is more suitable

# You are going a mile a minute. I haven't even built one myself yet, so I can not tell you how much the shipping of such items will cost. I haven't even thought about selling these cores. At first we must built and test one motor an see how it performs, that could take some months.

Thanks,
Jetijs

Schpankme · #**516** (**permalink**) 12-16-2007, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetijs

Schpankme,

# You are going a mile a minute. I haven't even built one myself yet

Thanks,
Jetijs

Jetijs,

Having watched the Electric Motor Secrets DVD and Youtube supplements; I'm interested in 'building along' with you and others, with the same motor design/theroy.

- Schpankme

Jetijs · #**517** (**permalink**) 12-16-2007, 05:15 PM

If you have not done this already, I strongly suggest you to read this thread from the beginning. A lot of usefull info here

Schpankme · #**518** (**permalink**) 12-17-2007, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Lindemann

... recommend using just four poles.
... pole face to the rotor 60 degrees of arc, with a space of about 30 degrees of arc to the next pole.
... "bar rotor" defining 60 degrees of arc with two flat sides defining 120 degrees of arc.

Peter

Peter,

The motor attached was drawn, using 30 deg increments, to your specifications. This motor is the size of a CD (120 MM DIA), and might be nice if made 120mm Length (?).

My guess on Coil size would be Bi-filar wound, with as many wraps as we can get in the limited space ?

- Schpankme

nali2001 · #**519** (**permalink**) 12-17-2007, 02:41 PM

Since the 'holding force' of a magnetized piece of 'whatever' is defined by the actual field strength intensity and surface area, it is better to have your stator fingers like this (see attached) in relation to your rotor.

regards,
Steven

Jetijs · #**520** (**permalink**) 12-17-2007, 03:59 PM

Schpankme,
I agree to Steven about this. You can imagine the magnetic flux as a liquid or water and the core material as a water pipe. You can see that in the case of your motor, the poles are the thinnest parts, that is like there is very small diameter pipes. That will cause some resistance to the flow.

Anyway, today I was at this motor winding company and got my silicon steel plates. The plates are 0.35mm thick and I bought about 18 kilograms of the steel, that should be more than enough for a 120mm diameter core with 60mm thickness. Here's a picture:

I paid about 15$ for these plates, I think that this is very cheap

Also I saw the whole winding process and it is exactly like Steven said, they wind those coils on a separate machine and only then put them into the core:

Also saw some pretty impressive size motors there, this one for example is a 75kW motor:

They have a lot of smaller motors there, but they all have the same type of stator cores and nothing of what they have is suitable for our purpose.

So now I will design the motor in 3D and see how it looks. And then off we go to the laser cutter

lighty · #**521** (**permalink**) 12-17-2007, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetijs

I paid about 15$ for these plates, I think that this is very cheap

Told you so.

Schpankme · #**522** (**permalink**) 12-18-2007, 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nali2001

... 'holding force' of a magnetized piece ... defined by the actual field strength intensity and surface area ...

Steven

Steven & Jetijs,

I agree with your description of the magnetic flux flow and the improved Stator design; my concern was the limited space available to build an appropriate size coil. Upon reflection, the better design would use a Stator as you've described and increase motor diameter if additonal coil space was required.

Thank you,

Schpankme

twoody · #**523** (**permalink**) 12-18-2007, 05:00 AM

HI
I would just like to thank Peter for sharing this idea that has got us all thinking about doing something. I am like many out there that are following this forum and working on a motor but have not shared my progress.

I am using a 1/3 hp AC induction phase 1 motor that is readily available at yard sales. I happen to have one from a broken drill press.

It had a stator core with 24 poles. I removed every other one to 12 (hacksaw). Very low tech. this was to make the winding easier and allow time between pulses. The idea is to pules 6 at a time. and to use Steven's suggestion to change polarity on each pulse. The core is an aluminum and steal mix. it had a smooth surface so I marked it for 6 points that are slightly larger then the stator and removed the rest with a grinder.

Sorry I have no fancy machining equipment. If it doesn't work I will have to have one made. The affect of this type of core will be interesting to say the lest.

I am in the process of winding the stator with 22 gage wire and 20, 2 wire winds. Peter's Idea of doing this in 12 separate windings came just in time. I will try running with 12 volts first, then increase to 24.

I plan on following Jetijs excellent work with the circuit design. using the photo switch and a CD with slots attached to the end of the pulley.

I am having a great time learning about electric motors and circuit designed.

Thanks again for all your inspiration.

Schpankme · #**524** (**permalink**) 12-18-2007, 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twoody

HI

I am having a great time learning about electric motors and circuit designed.

Hello twoody,

Welcome to the group. Bold moves with your motor; I'm looking forward to following your progress.

- Schpankme

Jetijs · #**525** (**permalink**) 12-18-2007, 10:45 AM

twoody,
good job! I love your pictures and can't wait to see the results of your motor. How big is the airgap between stator and rotor in your motor?
Thanks,
Jetijs

Peter Lindemann · #**526** (**permalink**) 12-18-2007, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twoody

HI
I would just like to thank Peter for sharing this idea that has got us all thinking about doing something. I am like many out there that are following this forum and working on a motor but have not shared my progress.

I am using a 1/3 hp AC induction phase 1 motor that is readily available at yard sales. I happen to have one from a broken drill press.

It had a stator core with 24 poles. I removed every other one to 12 (hacksaw). Very low tech. this was to make the winding easier and allow time between pulses. The idea is to pules 6 at a time. and to use Steven's suggestion to change polarity on each pulse. The core is an aluminum and steal mix. it had a smooth surface so I marked it for 6 points that are slightly larger then the stator and removed the rest with a grinder.

Sorry I have no fancy machining equipment. If it doesn't work I will have to have one made. The affect of this type of core will be interesting to say the lest.

I am in the process of winding the stator with 22 gage wire and 20, 2 wire winds. Peter's Idea of doing this in 12 separate windings came just in time. I will try running with 12 volts first, then increase to 24.

I plan on following Jetijs excellent work with the circuit design. using the photo switch and a CD with slots attached to the end of the pulley.

I am having a great time learning about electric motors and circuit designed.

Thanks again for all your inspiration.

Twoody,

Welcome to the group. Excellent work so far. The model you are building will teach you the truth about many things. Each design, and every design feature, functions as a specific "question" you are asking of Nature. The behavior of the design is Nature's "answer" to your question. And Nature NEVER LIES!

In this process, there are no "mistakes", there is only "learning". As the process moves forward, if the machine behaves in ways that are different than what you intended, it means that Nature is telling you something important about the design. It's like, if you get the wrong answer(result), its only because you asked the wrong question (design).

With this in mind, I am going to suggest that the original rotor for the induction motor may not be suitable as a starting point for a rotor for this new kind of motor. In the original configuration, the presence of aluminum mixed with the iron causes cross-inductions which are used by the rotating magnetic field to cause DRAG in the rotor, forcing it to follow along. The iron conducts the magnetic field coming from the stator. As the conducted magnetic field interacts with the aluminum, it induces a current that is at right angles to the magnetic field in the iron. This induced current in the aluminum produces a second magnetic field that now drags against the primary field. The complex interaction of these TWO magnetic fields cause the rotor to turn and deliver torque.

In this new style of motor, however, this is not the principle we want operating in the rotor. All we are looking for is a piece of iron to be attracted to the magnetic field of the stator, with no interferences.

But keep working on winding the coils and putting the circuit together. Then try the rotor you have made, but don't be too surprised if it turns slowly or weakly.

One last thought. People like to believe they are building a "free energy machine". This is NOT TRUE. What you are doing is building a "science experiment". If you learn, step by step, and don't quit, you will EVENTUALLY build a model of an electric motor with a COP>1.

Keep up the great work.

Peter

nali2001 · #**527** (**permalink**) 12-20-2007, 01:34 PM

Nothing all that spectacular but, here I have another video demonstrating some overall practical info in regard to introducing magnetism to a laminated core efficiently.

http://www.krystyna.nl/Machine/CoreTesting5.wmv

Regards,
Steven