Hi TRON,

I'm quite sure no one has experimented to that extent yet.

It maybe a while before we get data like that.

Luc

Bob could not prove the claims he had made about the plug and the investor pulled all funding and kept the new patent. Bob has no skills for building anything so we had to do all the work for him, and yet without any education on what plasma reactions are, or do, he could not give us all the parameters to reproduce his claimed doubling of horsepower and 70 percent better mileage. The engines we ran could not run past 20:1 air/fuel which is normal. Bob claimed they would run up to 60:1 or more.

He blamed it on my electronics and other things, but in the end, he simply did not know what he was doing. He is now off trying to find another investor to hand him over $200,000 so he can keep up his lifestyle.

“then it's simply too powerful to be practical” Large Capacitor Banks are used in metal forming technology where water-plasma interaction generates supersonic pressure waves that create internal stress over 150,000psi in formed metal parts.

“Using a Firestorm, we need to fire a steam saturated, sealed volume of air at 125 PSI and watch for the pressure rise ... next project.” There will be negligible heat addition from plasma-water interaction because, “These ð -far infrared rays create a strong gravitational cavity that causes the substances to focus inward when burning.” See the following link

http://www.panaceauniversity.org/Hyd...Combustion.pdf
http://www.panaceauniversity.org/Hyd...Combustion.pdf

Note that, at pressures caused be engine’s compression ratio, normal ignition coil creates large plasma plume for sparkplugs with the Van-De-Graaff type electrodes. Also this type of electrodes minimize erosion at higher currents.
See the following links:
Chapter 2: Electromagnetism

Science Links Japan | Production of Atmospheric-Pressure Nitrogen Glow Discharge Using Pulsed Power Technologies and its Characteristics.


Introducing water vapor with the gasoline reduces combustion time by the fact that plasma sparkplug generates supersonic explosion with multiple plasma balls acting as ignition points. The larger the “fire-ball” the shortest time of combustion process that must generate the maximum pressure of Nitrogen And Steam at 14 deg ATDC in order to minimize the affect of crank-shaft-rod-geometry and maximize the torque.

See the NASA report Figure 3 titled “Oscilloscope traces of chamber pressure as function of crank angle.”
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/ca...1977016170.pdf

Figure 3 also show that combustion ends 50deg ATDC and Nitrogen/Steam still has a lot of pressure. Thus from 5deg to 175deg ATDC Nitrogen and Steam are waiting to produce useful work by firing plasma sparkplugs to exploit small supersonic pressure pulses. In this range 43 plasma pulses, with spacing of about 4degrees, can be created and summated.
To test this affect requires dual ignition one working BTDC and second producing kinetic energy ATDC. Very simple homemade distributorless ignition using photo-interrupters to detect crank angle can accomplish this.
Al

Thank you UncleFester for giving us an update with so much details.

I'm truly sorry it didn't pan out the way we thought it was or could of.

I now understand your disappointment in your prior post!... this is quite a letdown

Thank you for being honest with us all and sharing your research experience with Robert Krupa.

Luc

Each car, having 20 gal gas tank, produces and is running on 20 gal of Water.
Al

“I'm truly sorry it didn't pan out the way we thought it was or could of.”
What are you implying?
The cage and ball produce “plasma plume”; the question is what to do with it?
Al

Hi aljhoa,

thank you for sharing all the interesting information.

Looking forward in seeing a video of your experiments on the ideas you have shared.

Please keep us updated on your progress

Luc

Any plug produces a plasma, the cage and ball do not add to this effect, it just works slightly better than a normal plug at low energy levels (<1 Joule), but at higher energy levels (the level we need is 1.5 Joules or more) the Champion plug does much better. Video of both plugs side by side shows this very clearly. I made the mistake of leaving the champion plug and firestorm plug test setup working in the lab when I left to go get some sleep. The next morning the investor came in to see how we were progressing. The investor saw the side by side test and asked me why we were even working on the Firestorm plug. I didn't have an answer for him.

I also ended up finding an engineer on the east coast who actually had the drawings of the plug before it was patented. Bob was apparently staying with him for a short period of time. So it appears as though he probably is not even the original inventor of the plug, which explains why he has very limited knowledge of the effects of the plug.

Test runs on engines showed that ANY form of plasma ignition helps lower emissions and the engine runs smoother, but there are no miracles to be had at energy levels in the 1.5 to 5 Joule range. Higher energy levels than this erode the plug material quite rapidly and don't allow us to run straight water in the form of small particles of ultrasonic origin or steam. They do explode, but they don't create enough explosive force to move a piston.

I am not telling you this to discourage you, I am only stating the truth of what we found after 8 months of hard experimentation and two hundred thousand dollars in investor funding. We had some of the best test equipment and funding anyone could hope for, and had another high end lab working in unison with us (Nology Labs) in California. Unfortunately they found the same results as us.

So by all means keep working on it if you have the patience, but we found no free lunch using this technology. Now, if you had a plasma reformer BEFORE the intake AND plasma ignition, you might have something that could process water enough to make it run an engine, but we didn't try this. We only ran closed loop steam systems which failed. All our other tests were with standard gasoline and plasma ignition setups.

Uncle Fester, what was the configuration of the Champion plug (Type of electrodes, electrode spacing, w or w/o resistor. Other variables like pressure, relative humidity, KVolts or nitrogen levels were the same?)?
Pl’s provide some input to my post #2583.
Al

May I ask more information of you in relation to this last aspect of your post?

I appreciate you saying that a water only engine is not on the horizon thus far, with this approach at least, yet I beg to question what of the gasoline engine and plasma concept? Wasn't there anything encouraging there?

I'm currently in the process of gearing up to run a set of custom made plasma plugs in my gasoline engine, with water/methanol augmentation.

I'm already finding encouraging results thus far with a simple HEI ignition, Kiker leads and Brisk Premium LGS plugs, with gasoline and a controlled 50/50 water methanol injection blend.

At this point I'm only running a single shooter nozzle for the water/meth and driven carefully, am finding my water/meth consumption to be roughly 1/3 of a gallon over 110 odd klm.

If driven aggressively, I can easily consume a full gallon over the same distance.

Once my custom plugs are ready to be installed, I was going to be running a Crane Cams HI6 and PS91 coil, along with the Kikers, retaining the HEI as the trigger.

My water is treated by reverse osmosis too.

I've also installed the hottest available thermostat in order to try to increase the combustion chamber temps as I found that the above combo reduced these by about 150-200 degrees.

Do you expect I'll see any change from what I'm achieving now, once I switch to plasma spark?

Uncle Fester's info can be misleading because, comparison should be done not by observing the plasma plume but also how much K-Volts takes to produce it and how big of a supersonic pressure wave it can create.

GMEAST has shown that sparkplug with the cage is capable of producing plasma plume solely from ignition coil. Thus this plasma plume, interacting with water violently in Nitrogen, produces Brown’s gas that in microseconds changes to plasma traveling at supersonic speed.

This can be exploited to shorten the gasoline burning time by having several plasma “explosions”, acting as supplemental ignition points, in the 10deg BTDC to 14deg ATDC range.

In the 5 deg ATDC to 175deg ATDC range the cage may interfere with plasma formation and sparkplug cross-sections of the post # 2486 Water Sparkplug will be required. In this 5-175 deg range also higher energy levels (like aquapulser4700?) may be necessary to take the advantage of plasma-water kinetic energy acting at supersonic speed. At this speed 43 small pulses, about 4deg apart for the V8 engine, will summate to produce larger torque.
Al

1. First we used a very high performance ignition coil and a capacitor of 700uF @ 400 VDC at first and both plugs (champion with no resistor and J-electrode removed and Firestorm). No mileage increase, smoother engine operation, 30 percent less emissions was the result. Almost identical performance from both plug styles. Water does explode from this setup using both plug styles as well, but does not give enough pressure to push a piston down.

2. Next we used a 3000uF charged to 600 VDC, no ignition coil (direct discharge to the plug chamber) for water explosion tests in a closed chamber. This explodes water and produces a VERY loud explosion, but does not produce enough pressure to move a piston down (actually it leaves a slight vacuum for some reason) and both plugs lose metallic material from the plug body. The molten metal particles showed like a fireworks display for about 1 millisecond after the initial current flow.

3. We used a 10 uF cap charged to 1800VDC, almost identical results as above.

4. We took Bob's V-8 T-bird and put the high end 1.5 Joule Crane ignition drivers and coils on it running gasoline. It has a modified computer which changes all of the air/fuel charts and can allow up to 60:1 air/fuel ratio. We ran it on a 300 Horsepower dyno. It showed reduced emissions and smoother engine performance at the standard 13-14:1 A/F ratio, but could not fire a charge leaner than 20:1 or it would start misfiring and the three exhaust gas analyzers would show very high HC's, which of course shows us we are not firing correctly and spitting unburnt HC's into the exhaust.

5. In the lab tests it was clear that even at 100 Joules or more the plasma would not effect a large enough area to reform a liquid in the form of fuel or water into a explosive mixture. The cage on the Firestorm actually limited the plasma from extending out further into the combustion chamber regardless of level of energy. The flash from the plasma effect on high speed camera's (60,000 frames per second) would fill the chamber, but not the actual plasma itself. We need the entire combustion chamber to be filled with plasma and this is simply not possible with a small park plug. You would need multiple electrodes protruding from the chamber surfaces and a very large amount of energy, probably in the 150-200 Joule range, which would be difficult for an alternator to keep up with even if we were only firing once at TDC and had no waste spark.

6. Running the Firestorm plugs (which were flawlessly machined using Beryllium-Copper and special ceramics) on a 2005 V-8 Toyota Tundra was one of our last tests. The Firestorm design has a major flaw in that the ball vibrates under combustion pressures and eventually cracks the surrounding ceramic which falls into the cylinder. After a few hundred miles we pulled all the plugs and stopped the test. It showed no improvement in mileage on a gasoline vehicle and caused the computer to gives us error codes of ignition malfunction (because of the Firestorm not having a resistor it creates major transient voltage conditions which cannot be snubbed by the stock ignition driver).

7. Bob claimed he could get a single piston Honda engine to run closed loop with steam and the Firestorm plug. He failed and the Investor pulled all funding and we left Utah.

Try it. The Methanol/Water mix will give you more horsepower and fuel mileage, and low combustion temps. This has been done for many decades now. Our investor wanted an engine to run as Bob claimed. 70 percent better mileage, double the horsepower, and 80 percent less emissions. None of which were produced by our tests nor Nology. He wasn't interested in small gains because it would not have been able ot be sold to the big three in the U.S. You should see a small gain in mileage, a small gain in emissions reduction, and smoother engine running with plasma plugs, but your real gains will come from the water/Methanol.

“We need the entire combustion chamber to be filled with plasma and this is simply not possible with a small park plug.”
Uncle Fester
What are the reasons for filling constant volume chamber with plasma?
Al

Thank you UncleFester for sharing some of the test results

Luc

Because we need a large volume of water, fuel, etc to interact with the plasma in order to see big improvements in combustion. I'm sure you've noticed that you can spray a plug with water and discharge a cap across it. It explodes the water, and yet you have 90 percent or more of the water still remaining on the plug after it explodes (although some of the water that did not process is blown off by the explosion itself). This is because the water that actually exploded was only a tiny fraction of what was available. In order to explode more of the water at once in order to drive a piston you need more of the water to be affected by the plasma.

The same holds true for gasoline and diesel. In order to break them down instantly into a hydrogen rich gas and fire them simultaneously, we would need a far greater amount of particles interacting with the plasma, and this cannot happen when you are only creating plasma in a very small area compared to the total combustion chamber volume.

It would be far better to pre-process your fuels or water before it enters the combustion chamber, and then use plasma ignition to make sure more (or all) of it fires. GEET and plasma reactors could provide this setup. In order to do this on a late model vehicle, it would take large sums of money and time in order to get it working, which is why I am not currently working on this system.

I will add one more thing. We did play with GEET reactors and gasoline before firing them with Plasma ignitions and found that the exhaust contained only tiny amounts of CO, HC, NoX. It was mostly water vapor In fact, we closed looped the exhaust into a chamber where it could catch any remaining exhaust byproducts and found that for every pint of fuel burned we had over 8 ounces of water

Ok so what we need is a champion marine plug, vexus setup, and some special built wires with a built-in resistor between the vexus connection and distributor to eliminate the transient spikes.....

Then we need to focus on ionizing all incoming gas/water.......

This is a good direction to take. If you could have a high resistance path to the plug from an ignition coil (to open a circuit for the high current discharge) and a low resistance path for the capacitor to discharge through, you might be able to reduce or eliminate the transient issues with the higher performance mosfet ignition drivers.

A plasma reactor to process the fuel/water before the combustion chamber similar to ChrisPCrunchy:

YouTube - Car plasma injection system

Then you might have a winner.

I tried to get a clearer picture of what these "transients" were a while back, yet they weren't explained in depth enough for me to understand if they're in any way related to the "field" which I've noted is apparent at lower power levels when using the Kiker leads.

Could these "transients" be the result of the higher powered "field"?

Meaning as you increase the power, the "field" I'm getting at low power becomes so strong it begins manifesting as these transients?

Were the "transients" apparent with all the plug leads you used, or just the Kikers?

I found that the number of coil/meanders in each lead directly alters the "field" in some way, and the one lead I had which simply refused to fire, no matter what I did, came good after I removed 1 coil/meander.

I haven't looked into it further, but I suspect it may have been in some way related to where the ignition coil was located within the plug lead array, causing this "field" to kill that lead in it's then, state of "tune".

Did you look at what happened with different coil/meander combinations, and if the position of the ignition coil within the plug lead array was in any way related to the way in which the "transients" manifested?

If the plug lead array is "tuneable", might it be possible then to "tune" out the transients by altering the coil/meander configurations?

A plasma reactor to process the fuel/water before the combustion chamber similar to ChrisPCrunchy:

YouTube - Car plasma injection system

Then you might have a winner.[/quote]


The electyrodynamic explosions discussed in “THE ANOMALOUS STRENGTH OF COLD FOG EXPLOSIONS CAUSED BY HIGH CURRENT WATER ARCS” see,
http://www.primeideas.info/patents/Part31.pdf

as well as shown as Motor Concept in Figure 5.3: The electrodynamic explosion motor, of the following link Applications

can only be SIMULATED in an engine that was designed to run on Nitrogen/Steam pressures peaking 14deg ATDC, see the NASA report Figure 3 titled “Oscilloscope traces of chamber pressure as function of crank angle.”
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/ca...1977016170.pdf

Slow gasoline-burning process is initiated BTDC and ends ATDC. Figure 3 also shows that combustion ends 50deg ATDC.

US Patent 6161520 “Multiple spark ignition gasket” is a conventional attempt to reduce burning time.
The exceptional method of combustion time reduction is plasma sparkplug that generates from water Brown’s gas which in turn can ignite the gasoline in constant volume chamber at TDC.

Brown’s gas ignited by Plasma Sparkplug under certain conditions will generate the sun’s surface temperatures in excess of 14,500 deg F however, it will not heat Nitrogen or Steam and only implodes i.e. can not push pistons. Ignited Brown’s gas must be some sorts of plasma similar to the lightning ball, see 1980’s news.
1980's Hydrogen in the News - Water HHO Torch Demonstration
YouTube - 1980's Hydrogen in the News - Water HHO Torch Demonstration

Uncle Fester stated, “The same holds true for gasoline and diesel. In order to break them down instantly into a hydrogen rich gas and fire them simultaneously, we would need a far greater amount of particles interacting with the plasma, and this cannot happen when you are only creating plasma in a very small area compared to the total combustion chamber volume.”

During water explosion tests, lightning balls fly in all directions are more likely doing the same in constant volume combustion chamber see,
SirHOAX
“Water Arc Acceleration Plasma Ignition - HHO Hydrogen Cell”
YouTube - Water Arc Acceleration Plasma Ignition - HHO Hydrogen Cell

Brown’s gas in order to burn, like bottled hydrogen, needs to be diluted with air see “Effect of Hydrogen Enriched Hydrocarbon Combustion on Emissions and Performance”
http://www.panaceauniversity.org/Hyd...Combustion.pdf
“Theories on efficient electrolysis – During the 1970’s professor and inventor Yull Brown designed an electrolysis power torch for use in welding operations. This electrolysis unit was designed to pass the molecular hydrogen and oxygen output through an electric arc”

“This implosive burning is likely due to atomic hydrogen and oxygen being present. Studies suggest that implosion will only occur when there is less than 5% air in the mixture otherwise explosion occurs [19].”

“When radical atoms of hydrogen and oxygen are bonded they form what is called crystallizing ð -bonds. These ð –bonds generate ð -far infrared rays. These ð -far infrared rays create a strong gravitational cavity that causes the substances to focus inward when burning.”

Uncle Fester stated, “This is because the water that actually exploded was only a tiny fraction of what was available. In order to explode more of the water at once in order to drive a piston you need more of the water to be affected by the plasma.”

Crank-shaft-rod geometry wastes electrodynamic forces occurring before 14degATDC, no matter how big.
When the crank-shaft-rod geometry is a straight line exploding water at supersonic speed can only reduce the burning time of gasoline with the help of a few ignition cycles crating plasma “explosions”.
Thus the counter torque is eliminated BTDC and burning process is concentrated around TDC.
To push the piston down electro-dynamically, the homemade distributorless ignition can produce 43 water explosions in 14deg ATDC to 175deg ATDC range using the steam from gasoline combustion and any water added thru the intake manifold.
Thus the Motor Concept of Figure 5.3 in the above link can be simulated using gasoline engine.

Since gasoline engine is running on Nitrogen the following information will open new horizons.

"Evidence of Thunder Being a Chemical Explosion of Air" (J. Plasma Physics, 69, 3, 2003)
“In 1989, it was proved that thunder is not caused by the thermal expansion of the lightning channel. The present paper suggests that it is the result of an air explosion driven by the liberation of chemical bond energy from the N2 and O2 molecules. This has been confirmed by laboratory experiments with air arcs of lightning strength. These arcs are short pieces of lightning strokes and their formation is accompanied by thunder-like sonic booms.”

Liberation of chemical energy in pulsed high current arcs inliquids and gases
Graneau, N.
Pulsed Power 2000 (Digest No. 2000/053), IEE Symposium
Volume , Issue , 2000 Page(s):19/1 - 19/4
Digital Object Identifier
”Summary: High current pulsed arcs in both water and air, are able to liberate chemical energy from the arc medium which can be recovered in either mechanical or electrical form. Despite the high currents, the arc is relatively cold which apparently makes this a highly efficient mechanism for liberating stored chemical energy and therefore a possible future energy source. In the case of water, hydrogen bonds are broken in order to create the observed small fog droplets. The energetics of small droplet bonding requires that the remaining hydrogen bonds will be expected to drop into lower energy configurations than in bulk water and thus the transition to droplets can release a large amount of chemically stored energy. Similarly in air, arcs break covalent bonds which are also a source of stored chemical energy. It appears that more mechanical energy is liberated in the water arcs for a particular discharge energy. However the lower mass and consequent higher velocities of the end products of the air arc explosion probably explain why the these arcs are more suited to direct conversion to electrical energy”

CHEMICAL ENERGY WITHOUT CARBON DIOXIDE
Peter Graneau
http://omael.com/!_HydroPlasmol_Tele...%20DIOXIDE.doc

Joe Cell Theories
Joe Cell Theories

Arc blast pressure Calculator
P = 11.58 x Iarc / D0.9
Arc Blast Explosion
“Energies produced by arc flash explosions are comparable to dynamite explosions. These forces can be significant. They have been known to blow workers tens of meters away from the arc causing falls and injuries that may be more severe than the burns themselves.”


Is the Nitrogen the ultimate power source,
Or is the combination of air and relative humidity?

The experimenter without test equipment can only speculate however, clearly plasma is necessary and opto-interrupter ignition having multi spark capability in the 100 deg BTDC and 180 deg ATDC increases chances of success whatever the mechanism of power source.
Multiple ignition points are better than the one igniting gasoline around TDC as they may show the effect of plasma on Nitrogen and Steam. This effect, which is masked by combustion, indicates RPM as the multiple supersonic pressure waves summate.

The Arc Blast Pressure Calculator shows that dynamic pressure is not that small and is significant acting over piston area, especially for the 43-point ignition.

Plasma needs the light of day, as hydrogen economy will put plasma technology into the closet for another 100 years. See http://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogen...vision_doc.pdf
Al

The plasma formed from the spark gap is extremely hot! and about the size of a golf ball. Sometime, the plasma even appear to be disconnected from the gap.

Attached Images

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The transients are always there with all ignition coils, it is the collapse of the magnetic field. Higher the power, the higher the transients. I had my Ipod sitting across the room and it was damaged during the 100+ joule discharges.

The way to take care of these issues is with resistance, or a snubber made of resistance and capacitance. The larger the snubber you use, the more power is taken away from the discharge and the more drain you have on your ignition driver. This is why resistance is added to both plugs and plug wires, to keep the transients down enough to not foul up the sensitive computers in the car.

You should be using a scope to view the waveforms if you are concerned with transient spikes.

Best of luck to you guys. I'm off to finish designing my circuitry for the attraction motor so I can get a bit more power flowing to my off-grid home here.

Key points!

Greg

Today I installed my custom made Firestorm plugs.

I've elected to run them first with standard leads as the issue I had with the coil to distributor Kiker lead dying on me (for no apparent reason) has resurfaced. No matter what I do, it will simply not fire with that lead now.
Basically prior to fitting the plugs, the car wouldn't start.

Initial observation upon fitting the plugs and running the engine is the insane amount of water being emitted from the tail pipe, it just never seems to stop.

I deliberately left the engine running for over an hour and the water just kept on coming, creating quite a large puddle at the rear of the car. I expect that a stainless steel exhaust system will be required now.

I drove around for a couple of hours and the power increase and smoothness is there, but I can't say how economical they are as I was fairly well ploughing the foot into it most of the time.

Removed a plug and magnified it, only to find rust on the earth cage, not a lot, but still clear proof it's dissociating the hydrogen, even with the standard leads. I expect this to increase further once I refit the Kikers.

The Brisks Premium LGS plugs I removed were blackened because I'm running larger than necessary jets in the Weber carb. I note that the Firestorms are running super clean.

A drag race tuner friend looked at the plug very closely with one of those ear examination tools that doctors normally have, and he says it's apparent to him that I'm burning everything within the combustion chamber now.

Great work and experimental results rosco1

If I understand this correctly, you are not adding any water to the engine and you're noticing more water dripping at the tailpipe?

Thanks for sharing

Luc

@Al

When I was reading the long post you made, I couldn't get JoeCell off my mind! So N2 reaction is surely one of the key components. Papp's engine used to vacuum conditions and apparently inert gases (I guess N2 is inert enough). So I guess that somehow fits in.

YouTube - Picture 182PAPP ENGINE

Great ides, anyway !

@rosco1

Can you please tell us the specs of the engine, displacement, c/r ratio, mileage, ignition angle,...It might be significant...who knows

Hi all,

I've compiled my videos into to a couple of archives. One is a DVD Video with a navigation menu and some slide shows all in higher resolution than on YouTube. The other is a DVD Data Disc with still higher resolution files than on the DVD Video. 1st the Video then the Data Disc.

Yes, I'm so low I intend to sell these ... $14.99 and $19.99 + S&H. Pieces of evolving history.

Any takers?

Greg

Hi Luc,

Yes, at idle there is no water/methanol entering the engine, that only begins to be injected at 1000 rpm. You can feel it when the water/meth kicks in, kind of like a small powerband on a 2 stroke motocross bike.

The water emission at the tailpipe seems to be constant, and even after driving around and parking, it begins dripping and forming a puddle again.

I'm running standard spark plug leads at this time as a problem with 1 Kiker Lead has manifested and simply refuses to be reckoned with at this point.

I'll look at why that lead failed as soon as I get some free time.

Engine is an inline 6 cylinder, all mechanical, no fancy computers etc, oldschool all the way.

202 cubic inch(3300cc).
Compression is 9.4 to 1(standard)
Ignition is set at 6 degrees(standard) It has been upgraded to a Bosch HEI ignition though.
Mileage is under 20k since full rebuild.
Engine is stock standard internally.

Externals include new headers and Holley patterned 2 bbl intake manifold, atop that is a series of adaptor plates/spacers, lifting the fresh 34 ADM Weber significantly higher than it would normally be.

The reason this has been done is to increase the plenum volume as well as give the incoming fuel/air mixture a tunnel ram effect.

I've yet to connect the plenum heater at the base of the manifold, I'll do that next as a flat spot is apparent and I feel it may be related to the plenum temp being too low.

OMG its alive!! There is life here again...
Greg save me one DVD PLEASE...ill save up, on the bones of my behind ATM but will get one when i can

Ash