Hi Ash,

Robin has sent me 2 plugs some months back and they were made of the same steel the rest of the plug is made of. Recently he has switched to a new alloy for durability. He told me the plugs are now made of an Alloy called Beryllium Copper. Info Beryllium copper - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They may look like Copper but not really just that. He has been testing and developing these for some time now.

However it would be interesting to see how a high Nickel content Stainless version of this plug would preform as some have reported nickel could have a catalysis effect on water in the combustion chamber?

Luc

Hi Ash,

I agree. The cap I'm using is a 1uF HV oil-filled Cap. It's a total of about 7 Watts being pushed across the spark plug gap(s) at 3000 RPM (the Bug). That's pretty low power. Still gonna watch 'em close.

I'm installing the steam water drip system now. The Firestorms are already in. The inlet air circuit has been rerouted so I can filter the inlet air and I also added bleed air from the fan shroud to cool the carburetor because it will get warmer now because of the improved steam + the fact that all inlet air is now coming through the heater box in an effort to prevent condensation.

Anyway ... almost testing again.

Peace,

Greg

Greg,
I was wondering about optimal timing. Today I had a discussion with a someone who said that there was some type of motorcycle racing which incorporated a plasma spark plug in the early 80's (details are unclear). The problems they encountered was holes blown in the tops of the pistons due to preignition. ??? I mentioned to him that water mixture (steam) should supress any preignition (done with turbo to supress preignition of fuels under higher compression). My thoughts are that the optimal timing for the rapid explosion of hydrogen should be late, especially dealing with H2O only. In the case of gasoline I think the water should improve preignition backfire or eliminate it. Also, cooler temps in the combustion chamber? Can we measure your engine temps with and without plasma. Also, with and without steam or water injection.

I was thinking about the effects of starting your engine with Plasma. While the engine is rotating slowly any advance especially with HHO could result in damage. Be careful not to advance the timing too much with plasma otherwise a hole in your piston could result. Good practice should be adjust with regular sparks, then add plasma perhaps.

Xack

Xack,
my tests showed that my genset operates a bit cooler with the plasma spark alone and no water introduced. I don't remember exact number, but the exhaust pipe was around 20 degree Celsius cooler than when running on standard spark

Jetijs,
I keep hearing from others about holes being blown in tops of pistons related to hydrogen. Is that a total myth propogated by some machine? Or is there any truth at all to it?

I know this is slightly off track from the main discussion but if there is any truth related to plasma spark I'd like to know before I pop pison tops in my Honda. I"m also under the impression that this is a totally unique and unexplored technology which issues like this may not apply at all.
Your reply welcome.
Xack

If you use hydrogen on your car to aid gasoline combustion or just plain hydrogen without retarding timing, then this of course will shorten the engine life, because hydrogen does increase the burn speed of fuel mix and if the timing is too advanced, the piston will still be in the fuel compression phase when the hydrogen aided fuel mixture already explodes and starts to push back. So it is possible that without changing the timing, the faster fuel burn rate can damage the engine.

Hi Xack,

I'm pretty sure I'm not igniting the steam. But I am igniting an otherwise difficult medium. I think there is an initial electrolysis at the plug producing hydrogen in a small quantity that facilitates the ignition of the steam-rich mixture. Also, because I'm ingesting the steam with the air, there is a slightly enriched fuel content (steam displacing air). On ignition, a respectable amount of energy goes to heating the steam and producing pressure and decreasing the temperature of the fuel-air in the process. The net result is lower temperature gas(s) in the chamber. We still have the same physical expansion ratio therefore the same theoretical thermal efficiency for the expansion cycle. However, the OVERALL efficiency is increased because less heat is being rejected to cooling the engine (heat traveling through cylinder walls / heads) as the engine now runs cooler.

Because there is a more energetic spark, there is faster ignition but not as much as if I were burning hydrogen. So, some retardation is in order but I have no idea how much.

Thanks for input. Peace,

Greg

Greg,
There was also this fellow which was "injecting" steam through copper tubing and a fitting with a spark plug and plasma. Well "injecting" may not be very accurate. It was a cloud which came from a flask heated by a bunsen burner. The plug was held upside down. There was a flame plume as the plasma ignited the steam cloud. I'm not sure if you could say that the episode was as much as HHO gas or Gasoline due to the quality of the video, but nonetheless it produced a flash. It's on Youtube. I'll look for it and send you a link.

Also, there is the issue of long term wear on valve parts and seats due to the errosive nature of non-superheated steam. Blades in steam turbines cavitate where steam vapors fall out in higher pressure areas like leading edges. How much and what kind of erosion, time will only tell when you run your car for a long period of time.

There again, if you only draw in what steam comes from your drop of water on your exhauste manafold, I'm quite sure that its so little that it won't make a big difference. Starting small and going to something bigger should be the right approach.

Xack

More from Ravzz

"Ash, Platinum-Rhodium Thermocouples are commercially available in various wire sizes and these have good wear resistance at high temperatures as well and are available in wire form and can be flattened for this application.

There is another rare Thermocouple Alloy made from Tungsten - Rhenium Alloy which can withstand temperatures of over 2500 deg C and can be used here but its pretty difficult to find in retail."


Ash

Hi Xack,

My tests with steam ingestion was well played out in the scenario I presented. The results were manifest as an EGT that fell from 700 to 535 F (k thermocouple up the exhaust pipe - to 'before' the steam point). The water is much more than just a drip ... it's almost a flow.

There are those issues of non-superheated steam vs erosion/corrosion. Being from the gas turbine industry myself, these are some of the issues on the forefront. Some of my inspiration for the approach I'm taking comes from work I did with combined cycles wherein one of the tests we injected steam from a recoup and condensed all of the water plus a percentage of the water from the combusted fuel. Our EGT was down 300 F (small engine) and no drop in HP. There was more evidence of cavitation damage on the 1st and 2nd stage compressor stator and disk blades than on any in the hot section. So I'm just relying on experience here.

Thanks,

Greg

Hi Xack,

Your points of view have been noted. But please read all of the posts pertaining to my tests.

Your comment - "There again, if you only draw in what steam comes from your drop of water on your exhauste manafold, I'm quite sure that its so little that it won't make a big difference." - indicates you have not.

I have mileage and instrumentation data supporting this cycle.

I think it would be great if you could post results of tests that YOU have performed as well as share pictures and videos of things YOU have built and tested.

Greg

I see that "iridium" has been mentioned two times here. I don't know how big of a problem wear still is but here's an intresting isolated post I read.

Singapore Bikes Forums - View Single Post - Silverwing 400cc / 600cc Tech Corner

This mainly is eye catching;

Greg,
You could just have sited the entry. I guess I missed it. Sorry dude.

That comment was not meant to be the way you took it, I'm pretty sure.
I was hoping to generate discussion around that and perhaps put it on the radar since long term performance and engine issues ARE relavent.

So you called me out on the testing. I'm doing the best I can right now. Admittedly, I'm not as far along as you but I'm getting my test vehicle this week. Also, I would like to get some specifications on making or getting some plugs.

Xack

all righty

Greg

Hi everyone,

Xack PM'd me and told me I acted like a jerk. Ok ... I acted like a jerk. He also wanted me to apologize in this forum. Ok ... I apologize for being a jerk.

I still stand on my analysis of the engine test cycle I am running.

It's getting into the high 40's in my shop right now (AM). Since I installed the Firestorm replicas, I noticed that the Bug starts and runs solid when cold, no choke and WITHOUT the Water Spark Plug plasma circuit running. Amazing! I energized the Water Spark Plug circuit AND IT RAN EVEN BETTER ... #%$@&*!

Gotta keep working on the new water feed for the steam. I'm using a small variable speed peristaltic pump this time. Now I can increase the flow as a function of engine speed ... not automatically but at least it's something.

Peace,

Greg

Thanks Greg for this update on the Firestorm replicas

Keep up the great work and thanks for taking the time to share with all

Luc

When did anyone say you were wrong?

You da man dude.
Xack

You all are, especially ALL working together. So is Robin, plugs are here and finally the god dam car is fixed .

I gotta say Robin is not just a talented machinist , he is also an artist Take a look at these, i almost feel guilty running them they are so perfect

ImageShack - Image Hosting :: 0001160ac0.jpg
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We are going to take these plugs on TV and plug them so to speak with the open source engineering credits, we are so grateful Robin sent these thanks to LUC , and we are really grateful that they both have enabled the access to these, it looks better us showing Kupra's plugs and showing the relevance to open source engineering then just mentioning them alone.

Will start some test as soon as the car is back this after noon.
thanks Robin and Luc.

Sincerely
Ash

Hi Ash,

Did you get my post about how these plugs run a cold, un-choked engine all by themselves almost as good as a regular plug fired with a plasma circuit? This was my first test, initial test result and conclusion.

Peace,

Greg

Hi everyone,

Here is a picture of the new setup. Warm air and steam into the carburetor. Carburetor bowl cooled with bleed air from fan shoud (right side). Air filter inside cab behind driver on the floor. I kept the crankcase recirculation in also, so I think I'm still legal.


Peace,

Greg

warm air and steam to inlet & bowl cooled by cooling fan bleed air / restrictor

Looking Good Greg

Thanks for sharing your great ideas

Luc

LUC,
Or anyone else who can help me. I would like to get information on the contact in order to get 12 (or how ever many I can) Firestorm replica plugs.

Thanks guys,
Xack

Your old timer is starting to look more like a rocket .

Hi broli,

Yeah ... it's the re-birth.

Actually I'm trying to keep the steam entrained in the inlet flow to fight condensation. Unfortunately I also have to cool the bowl so the gas doesn't boil (other duct). I'll likely make that a 1 inch duct from a tee and plumb in the right side heater box. That stuff hasn't been used in years.

Greg

Hi Greg, Yup got the post about the plugs am updating now

YouTube - Steam injection test on Saab 900 Internal combustion engine, not HHO or water car but Hypermiling
Steam injection test on Saab 900 Internal combustion engine, not HHO or water car but Hypermiling

Ash,

Yes! There are wonderful things to be realized by ingesting steam boiled off of the exhaust manifold. It creates an entirely new engine cycle! Thanks for posting the video link.

Peace,

Greg

Greg, am finding a lot of new steam ones on you tube and adding them in the steam doc in the fuel saving vehicle modifications doc as part of the uni site.
http://www.panaceauniversity.org/Wat...20research.pdf
(put in steam injection in you tube)

Found the comments interesting in that video, they are of the opinion that the steam injection could cool the Cat converter and therefore it might stop working, i don't think there would be much hydrocarbons left over personally from this injection.One of the best ones i have seen is a hybrid, of steam, Hydroxy and and a vapor system in the doc above, just needs Robin's plugs and your circuit

Ash

Ash,

Thanks for bringing that to my attention. I don't think these guys know that they are actually pushing the engine into a very different thermodynamic cycle. Taken to an extreme, you can eliminate a great deal of waste heat being rejected as cooling for the engine. I believe this contributed greatly to the (almost) 40 % increase in economy with the Bug ... that and being able to ignite it efficiently with the plasma spark.

Peace,

Greg

Hi all,

...just an update. Made and installed water delivery manifold (bent tube with some 1/16th holes). Made a couple of freeway runs. Enlarged the carb bleed air cooling hole to 1/2" dia. ... carb got a little warm - dodn't want to boil the gas in the float bowl and torch everything. Using the I.V. water drip right now 'cause I'm waiting for some more peristaltic tubes for the pump ... they wear out awfully fast ... inferior tube material I think. Getting close to resuming tests. As soon as peristaltic pump is in, then baseline pictures of #2 plug (easiest to get to), mileage, fuel and away we go.

I may still wrap some of that copper scrub stuff around everything though ... don' know.

Peace,

Greg

water supply manifold with 1/16" dia. holes


manifold installed (bright sunshine!)